Вордсмит — Книга 2: Трудные места школы «Ум только», занятие 33

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, got it. Is that like an instant bag? What is that?

Yeah, they have all these instant bags now. Cool.

[Speaker 3]
It's only a California thing.

[Speaker 1]
No, no, they have these everywhere. How fun. Some good, some good coffee roasters are making these.

It's good when you have sleeping children in the house. Wonderful. It's fudge, black pepper, and red apple.

Let's see. Fudge. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I had a pretty freaky Ecuador this morning.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, you were telling me about that one.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, dude. Oh, yeah, that's right. I was on the phone with you when I tried it.

Yeah, it's astounding.

[Speaker 1]
It makes sense.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Yeah. Hey.

Hey, Dr. Ward. I'm going to start class now. I guess here, just do the homework.

[Speaker 1]
Hard work for a thing. That's not fair.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, do it. I'm going to start.

[Speaker 1]
Hi again. Good morning. What is this pilot, Kramer?

[Speaker 2]
I don't know. I think it's delirium.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, it's drugs. The drug of caffeine. Okay.

Hey, where do you start class? Look like it's just a share screen, dude. Okay.

Right. You're up, Ward. All right.

Okay, I kept it brief with the homework. Okay, here we go.

[Speaker 2]
What problem automatically arises if the seeds were separate from the foundation consciousness?

[Speaker 1]
Well, are you offering money for this question? Probably not. No answer then.

Wouldn't you have two seed foundation consciousnesses going on? Close. What did you say?

I don't know about foundation consciousness. Two foundation consciousness. Yeah.

Yeah. Good. That's what you meant, right, Rob?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. There would be two foundation consciousnesses. Good.

Okay. Ontologically speaking, what is the actual status of the seeds?

[Speaker 3]
Their potentials. What's ontologically? How do they be?

[Speaker 1]
I don't think that relates to existence. Their potentials. Could happen.

People are chiming in in the chat. You guys can speak if you want to. Intelligent people in the chat room.

Oh, yeah. Very intelligent. Nikita and Roxanna both got it.

How much money did they get? I'm pretty sure zero unless someone else is ponying out the cash.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. All you potential people, here we go. What is the synonym for seeds that sums up their reality?

[Speaker 3]
Potentials.

[Speaker 1]
Well done. And in Tibetan, whoever said that, Tim, I guess. I don't know who it was.

[Speaker 3]
Nibbas.

[Speaker 2]
Thanks, Tim. Okay. Now for Tibetan.

So for our Tibetan today, I've devised a multiple choice. So what I want since I'm trying to make this as inclusive as possible, is everyone in the chat out there who wants to be involved, you're just going to put a letter in the chat.

[Speaker 1]
A, B, or C. I'm going to show you the word and you're going to put A, B, or C. Does the Tibetan I show on the screen, is it equivalent to A, B, or C?

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Get your keyboards at the ready.

[Speaker 1]
Calm down, Geshe-la. I know it's exciting. All right, here we go.

So A for same, B for different, C, none of the above. Okay. It's very basic translation of each of these words to make it very simple and somewhat fun for me.

Not for you, you're bored. Okay, here we go. It's six in the morning and we're doing multiple choice quizzes.

Okay, Tadepa, does that mean same, different, or none of the above? Put it in the chat. Hasso is...

Hasso, you can't put A, B, and C. You're one of those kids, Hasso.

[Speaker 2]
Kramer puts L. Oh my God.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Gibson, Tim, and Son of Upala, and one of Hasso's answers is correct. It's different.

I mean, they put separate, but I just made it simple and put said different. Okay, here we go. Next one.

You ready? One answer, Hasso. Oh, now everyone's catching on.

And everyone else is just writing what everyone else wrote. Okay. Perfect.

I'm doing this because they put it like, they said the same thing. Gibson Koppel wrote the same thing like six different ways, and I thought it was funny. So now you're being subject to this.

Tadepa. A, B, or C. Same, different, and none of the above.

[Speaker 2]
Non-different.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. We got it. Yeah.

All you mixed nuts nerds. Correct. This also means same.

Okay. Say chick. Not the whole definition thing.

Just the basic. Same, different, and none of the above. No one else feels like responding.

Fine. Give no excuse in China. It's not six in the morning.

I don't want to hear it. Okay. Yes.

This also means same. And they're used interchangeably in the text. So this is not just me having fun with you.

Okay. How about this one? Whoa.

Oh boy. I know.

[Speaker 2]
I like it. It also says none of the above. Yeah.

It's pretty cool. Kramer says B, different.

[Speaker 1]
Gibson and Senebupala and Ella and Nick are correct. This also means same. I think Michael got it right too.

Did he write that? I didn't see. Yeah.

Yeah. You can send my money to Ellia. Okay.

That one I can see going two different ways. This means none of the above. Yeah.

It's in the poem. It literally means neither, but none of the above sounds funnier. So I use that.

Yay. Everyone gets a hundred or a zero. I don't know.

Okay. Here's my translation again. I just did the next two lines because we didn't say anything specific to do and they were easy.

So I just got away with it. All right. Yeah, it is.

It's actually the author of the Del Shea of the commentary to Vasubandhu is reporting Vasubandhu's wrong loop. Okay. Supposedly.

And yeah, I think it is Yasha Mitra, but I got the quotation for you. You did. It's in the text.

Yeah. Subbing, potentials and propensities. Yeah.

Nice. Very nice. I would have put seeds, potentials and propensities in quotation marks.

That's all. Yeah. But the translation is good.

Yeah. Because I wouldn't have understood it unless you put the quotation marks in. What are name seeds?

Excuse me? The name seeds, potential. But the name is plural.

So I was like, name seeds? What? Yeah.

And then put the comma inside of the quotation marks. These are all a semicolon would go outside and a comma would go inside. Okay.

Good. Nice. All right.

You pass. And by the way, your homework was fun. I like those ABC thing.

All right then. Okay. Here we go.

Back to work. You sleeping? Oh, that's a different one.

Hang on. Hang on. Okay.

Let me put you guys up here. Okay. All right.

Okay. These are the two sentences you translated already, right? Yeah.

I'm trying to get you guys. How do I move you guys back? Okay.

I checked. It is. I think it is Yasha Mitra, John Campbell.

And here's the... Actually, a word. If you look at the quotation, right?

Hang on. Let me get rid of this. There we go.

Okay. If you look at the quotation, it has two parts, right? First, he says seed, potential, and I don't know, bakchak.

They all mean the same thing. Then he makes a second statement. He says, and seeds only exist as labels and not as something substantial, right?

So, it's really two different... The idea is accredited to Vasubandhu. There are two different ones here.

So, the first one is here. And that's pretty clear. It's exactly a quotation, okay, by Yasha Mitra.

Yasha Mitra is a beautiful, beautiful commentary. And we should translate it someday. But it's huge.

It's four volumes in the Sanskrit books. And somebody took those four volumes out of the library in the scriptorium. And it would be wonderful to get them back, okay?

They're very, very rare and important. Okay. And here's another quotation that I think you could use for the second part of the quotation, okay?

Or you could use this one here. So, let's read these, word, just for fun, all right? Remember that these are quotations that are supporting the second part of our statement, which is that seeds exist only in name, okay?

Good. Translate slowly.

[Speaker 2]
Those seeds, which we're referring to, ni is going to be like mean, or are.

[Speaker 1]
They are not something other, yeah, than the mind. That's all. Other than the mind.

Okay, seeds are not something which is other than the mind, but they're also, they're also not, not something. Double negative.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, they're also not, not other than.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, okay. They're not other than the mind. And they're also not, not other than the mind.

Yeah. All right. Why?

Because they are tenet dakpa.

[Speaker 2]
Because they, their basis is, yeah, their basis or essence is just merely labeled.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, independence or something, okay? So, they just exist as labels, meaning they're just something that might happen, okay?

[Speaker 3]
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 1]
And that's the feeling he wants you to get. We're trying to get the feeling of what a seed feels like. And what it feels like is just this kind of amorphous possibility.

It's not a thing in the mind. It's not like a watermelon seed in the mind, okay? It's just an idea or a possibility, okay?

I like this one. This is also from Yasha Mitra. And it's the same, it's a similar discussion, but I think it would make a good part of your footnote.

So, I'm going to ask you to read this, this other section from Yasha Mitra, okay? Yeah, somebody's asking a question, okay? If you start out with a migewi sem...

[Speaker 2]
If you start out with an unvirtuous mind...

[Speaker 1]
And you put a gewi saban into it.

[Speaker 2]
And you put a virtuous seed into it.

[Speaker 1]
How come the seed doesn't change to migewi?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, we had this already, though. Did we? I mean, Jason Kappa talked about it, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
I think it was Golden Key, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And the answer is, gyu kyi sabang gi dun mi she. Mi she. Your seeds are not your mind?

You mi she the dun of the seeds. Oh, you understand the meaning of what a seed is. Mi she.

Yeah, yeah, excuse me. You don't understand what the meaning of a seed is. Don't ask me a question like that.

It shows you don't understand what a seed is, okay? Yeah. So, what was the question?

If you start out with a non-virtuous state of mind, and you put a virtuous seed into it, doesn't the seed become non-virtuous by association? And then he says, Ha! Don't ask me a question like that.

It shows you don't understand what a seed is. Okay. So, hopefully now he's going to clarify what a seed is.

Here we go. Please read. Okay.

Yeah, this part's a little confusing for me personally. But anyway. DGE BA'I SEMS DGE BA'I If you are able to bring up a state of mind which is...

Virtuous, good. Yeah. Whether that DGE BA'I SEMS DGE BA'I Whether it's directly or indirectly, we could say that a state of mind tends to perpetuate a state of mind.

DE RANG SKYE PA RUNG BAR GYUR So, if you started with a virtuous state of mind, it would tend to perpetuate itself. DE LTA BU'I NUS PA SKYE PA CHEN So, if the mind has this special quality that states of mind tend to perpetuate themselves, then if the mind became non-virtuous, the mind could become non-virtuous after being virtuous. So, that would be due to a sovereign.

NUS PA'I SKYE PA CHEN KHO NAR ZAD What's KHO NAR ZAD mean? It only would fade away. This is an idiom.

It means just that and no more. Just that and no more. So, Sabans are just a quality of potential and nothing more.

Sabans are just seeds, mental seeds are just a potential and no more. And, SA BAN ZHES BYA BA CHUNG SEMS MED TE That thing you are giving the name Saban to, SA BAN ZHES BYA BA CHUNG SEMS MED Doesn't even have a little... There's nothing there.

You are calling a potential state of mind a seed, but when you go looking for some like watermelon seed in your mind, CHUNG SEMS MED, you won't find an atom of seed there, because it's just THAG RGYAS.

[Speaker 2]
It's just labeled as such.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's just a concept. It's just a concept. There's no real seed there.

It's just an idea of what might have changed the course of the mind, for example. It's just an idea of what might have changed the course of the mind from virtue to non-virtue or something like that. It's just an idea we have.

There's nothing there. It's just the ineffable fact that the mind can change from virtuous to non-virtuous.

[Speaker 3]
Yeshula, I have a question.

[Speaker 1]
Oh my God, you're too hard.

[Speaker 3]
No, no, no.

[Speaker 2]
But it's beautifully rendering it as tend to remain the same.

[Speaker 3]
But where is that?

[Speaker 1]
RANG RGYAS PAR RUNG BAR GYUR It would be appropriate for it to continue itself, you see, trigger itself. You see what I mean? Keep itself going, something like that.

So why does it change course? There's some kind of potential in the mind that causes it to change course. And that invisible potential, we just call it a seed.

Okay, something like that. The point is that a seed is not a concrete thing. A seed is the possibility that the mind could shift.

Okay, it's interesting. Cool?

[Speaker 2]
Very cool.

[Speaker 1]
Very quiet, you guys. Okay, here's some other less interesting... Yeah, here's a direct statement that the thing we call a seed is just a potential.

Okay, same. I think it's from the same commentary. Yeah.

Oh, no, a different one. Okay. All right.

Please read this little line, Vern. What's it mean? I think you can...

[Speaker 2]
This is equivalent or with the true intent of the brothers. This quote is in line with what the brothers thought.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, because of this quotation, she ju re, we can say that on this question of the status of a seed, the ku ches are gomba chik.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I see. Yeah, Master Vasubandhu and Arya Sangha are thinking the same way.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, they are of one mind, as we say in English. Okay, about what is a seed. Okay, cool.

Geshe-la. Yeah. I think I figured out why che means conflagration and twin.

Because your mom has more than one? Yeah, because you have like a conflagration of kids. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

You're lucky to stop at two, right? Okay, just imagine how stressed out Nick and Ben would be if they had a conflagration like that. Okay.

Okay, please read. Oh, who's checking you? Nick, you want to check the guy?

[Speaker 2]
Sure. I'm hoping Stanley here. Maybe I spelled that wrong in the chat.

Okay.

[Speaker 1]
DE NA SOGS SEMS SEMS CHUNG GANG YANG MIN PA'I PHYIR THANG Okay. DE NA, therefore, what's GOS PA mean? Smearing.

Say again? Smearing. Yeah, a smeared, past tense, right?

A seed which got smeared on the mind. Okay. In DCI, we actually discuss seeds a lot.

And we were trying to place them in the outline of existing things. And well, are they NGOS PO or NGOS MED? First of all, word.

They're NGOS PO. Yeah, they're a functioning thing. They do something.

[Speaker 2]
They better.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, well hopefully. There's three kinds of NGOS PO. What are those?

Three divisions of NGOS PO.

[Speaker 2]
Physical, mental, and that which is not physical or mental.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Physical working things, mental working things, and working things that are neither mental or physical. Or you can say factors which are neither physical or mental.

So, in terms of the five heaps, where would you put the seeds?

[Speaker 2]
I guess factors.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, factors, which means grab bag of other stuff that relates to word that's none of the other four.

[Speaker 2]
46 other things.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. So, DU BYED KYI PHUNG PO means skanda number four, the fourth heap, okay, which includes word, which includes word seeds, and which includes concepts. Okay, so let's throw it into one part, CHOG GCIG, of the fourth heap.

Let's say seeds belong in one of the sections of the fourth heap, okay? What's that section given the name? DEMOD DU BYED, okay?

Factors, meaning stuff in the fourth heap, which is DEN MIN. Tell me what that means, Warren.

[Speaker 2]
It possesses neither, it literally, it's a shortened form of it possesses neither physical or nor mental, I don't know, or mental.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. SOGS DANG SEMS MA YIN PA, DEN MIN PA, okay, yeah. It's a changing thing.

It's a working thing. It's a thing that does something, but it's neither physical or mental, okay? I don't know why he said THOB PA here.

I mean, there's a very obscure Abhidharma idea called THOB PA. I don't think, it doesn't feel right to me here, and I can't guess what it used to be, okay? THOB PA in Abhidharma is a weird idea about a substantial entity which keeps something, keeps you possessed of something, like a belt keeps you possessed of your pants, okay?

I don't know why he mentions it here. I'd like to check that, okay? Can you check that in some manuscripts, okay?

Geshe-la, I'm looking in the in the Great Dictionary right now, and it says something to do specifically with Den Menduci's. You should read it. Okay.

I'll put it in the chat. You mean as far as THOB PA? Yeah, yeah, specifically.

Okay. There is a concept of THOB PA in the sense of an entity which keeps you possessed of something, okay? Yeah, Abhidharma idea.

Yeah, and it's weird, okay? And then THOPAs have to have their own THOPAs, okay?

[Speaker 2]
THOB, THOB.

[Speaker 1]
It's like a belt. They keep calling it the karak, the belt. There has to be a substance that...

There has to be a substance that keeps something on you, okay? Okay. All right, YIN DE.

DU BYED YIN MA, it's a... DU BYED means what? Not DU CI, DU BYED.

What's DU BYED? Oh, yeah. Oh, no, it's a produced thing.

Oh, DU BYED is produced thing. Yeah, YIN LA. But it's neither SUG or SEM or SEM CHUNG.

Form, mind or mental function. Good, okay, good, good. All right.

Why does he say DGOS PA'I SA BON? Why does he specify the seed has to have been...

[Speaker 2]
Smeared?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it needs a seed. He wants to, for some reason, Tsongkhapa wants to emphasize that the seed has already been placed in your mind. Okay, we're not talking about seeds as a theory.

We're talking about an actual seed that got smeared in your mind already, okay? All right. Nani is going to quote Kuntu, and Dr. Kramer is going to check your pronunciation.

[Speaker 3]
One second. He hasn't made a mistake yet.

[Speaker 1]
I know, it's kind of boring.

[Speaker 3]
As per usual, no mistakes. Hey, Ben Kramer. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
In the Siddhantas, do people ever hassle the mind-only seed theory for being like Sankhya notion of the gunas? Oh, I've never heard that particular critique. There sure is a large body of that literature that I specialized in that I don't know anything about, though.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, sorry. Go ahead. Ben's going to check you.

Try to make some mistakes sometime, okay? Nama. I made the mistake.

You got to catch them, Ben.

[Speaker 3]
Seemed okay. What happened? Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Okay. What's kundalitu?

[Speaker 2]
Good.

[Speaker 1]
And it says, what does it mean to be demba?

[Speaker 2]
What does it mean to possess?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and then by definition, okay, it's as we discussed it before. When it's by definition, it's as we discussed it before. Or in terms of its definition, it's as we discussed it before.

Ran, this is, oh, wow, this is a mistake. Okay. This is probably rubbed to you.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Oops. Let's just check the tenure. Yeah, there you go.

Rubbed to you. Okay. If you divide ways of possessing things into three, right, you can say sabundang demba.

[Speaker 2]
They possess seeds.

[Speaker 1]
You have the seed. Wang dang demba.

[Speaker 2]
You possess the power.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, meaning the... It's again like potential, I think. Or we can say you possess kunjung.

[Speaker 3]
Hey, he fell asleep. The source?

[Speaker 1]
Source? Yeah, the source. And I think all these three are synonyms here.

When we say you have a seed, what we mean is you have a potential power. And what that means is there's the source of suffering is there waiting to pop out. Okay, got it?

Something like that. All right. Here's a quotation from Master Sangha.

It looks pretty much the same. And here we go. We'll start here.

de tar Who's checking you is Adam.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, and this is the first half of a ka ching ma.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so somebody wants to start an argument. Okay. And he says, look, seeds in the mind can be divided according to three different criteria.

As you just quoted, they could be called power, they could be called source, they could be called seed. Okay. So you have divided seeds into three parts with the quotation you just gave us.

Okay. And here's another division of seeds into three. And Tsongkapa also divides them into three.

Let's keep going though. Okay. Please read here.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so I think he's specifically saying, look, if seeds don't have any real existence, how can you start dividing them into different types? Because in Dönsang, okay, in this commentary to the Mahayana Sangraha, kung shi nampa shepa is described, okay, the kung shi itself is described in two different aspects. What are the two parts of kung shi word as far as seeds?

[Speaker 2]
The riten and the briten?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. Explain.

[Speaker 2]
Well, basically, if the foundation consciousness was a refrigerator, then the content of the refrigerator would be seeds that have not yet ripened.

[Speaker 1]
Good.

[Speaker 2]
And the refrigerator itself, which is both a storehouse and a consciousness would be the seeds that have ripened.

[Speaker 1]
Good. So, I would read nampa mimpa in this sentence as the part of the kung shi which has already ripened. And then there's the part of the kung shi which hasn't ripened yet, which is called seeds.

And the foundation consciousness or the refrigerator, which has ripened already, holds the seeds which have not ripened yet. Okay? Cool.

So, he says, look, kachik is saying, look, we see seeds divided into three, and we see seeds divided into two. Then how are you going to explain that? Okay?

How are you going to explain that? All right. And here's the original quotation from Densang.

Okay? Here's the quotation. Here.

Okay. You see them divided. Now, what about that division into two?

And here we go. Please read. Good.

nyepa mey te means, okay, look, there's no problem that we talk about the refrigerator and the seeds separately. Generally, when we... I would read a possessive here.

When we talk about the seeds that are sitting in the kunshi as being kunshi, when we use the word consciousness to refer to the seeds that are in the kunshi, when we use the word consciousness to refer both to the seeds and the refrigerator, when we use the word foundation consciousness to refer to both the refrigerator and the seeds, we are simply Not dividing the unripened seed from the ripened seeds? Good.

And big mistake here in the Tibetan, okay? It should have been rakshe. What's rakpa mean as opposed to chawa?

Rakpa means rough. We're just speaking roughly or... Nice, nice.

Yeah, we're just making a generalization. Technically, you get in a little bit of trouble if you refer to the seeds as foundation consciousness. But just speaking roughly, it's okay.

You can say that. You can say that the seeds are the consciousness, okay? Shey te, chey ne.

If you divide them, then you could get sabans and consciousness. You could divide them into seeds and refrigerator, okay? Now, if you divide them, and then you ask me, are they dze chik or are they ta de?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Yeah, if you ask that question, I would tell you that they... I would tell you that they're not either.

[Speaker 1]
Good, good. They ain't either one, okay? If you try to pin me down and say, look, are those seeds and the refrigerator they're staying in, are they the same stuff or are they different things?

I say, neither one, okay? Neither one. And that's what Tsongkhapa has been saying all along, okay?

You cannot describe the seeds as being part of the kunshi, and you can't describe the seeds as being separate from the kunshi, okay? All right. Please keep reading.

Okay, good. Chodakter means, more specifically, if you think about how this question is presented in Dönsang, okay? And if you keep reading after what I mentioned above, chö means if you keep reading down after that, okay?

You could find in the Dupa, okay? In the Mahayana Sangraha, in the longer explanation of the Mahayana Sangraha, you can get more information, okay? So if you want to know how this discussion continues, check the bigger commentaries to Mahayana Sangraha, okay?

And you could also check sections in both commentaries, okay? Dönsang and Shijang. The means in the sections where they ask the question, are they separate or not, okay?

And Tsongkhapa is basically, you get the feeling that Tsongkhapa is starting to say what? He's wrapping it up, right? Yeah, he's wrapping it up and he's saying, look, if you're still not clear on this point of how the seeds are and are not separate from the mind, then you go read the two commentaries, check for this line, read the section after that, okay?

Okay, but I'll tell you, and you don't have to look, the two great commentaries, the secret meaning and the explanation, are Shelchampa.

[Speaker 2]
On the face, they're equivalent?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, they agree. Their position agrees, okay? They're in agreement.

And I did not know this word, I looked it up. They are in agreement. Chalwa, okay?

They comment on this question in the same voice, okay? But in Dönsang, Saben Ngame Gin Jukpe, what's that mean? Saben Ngame Gin Jukpe.

[Speaker 2]
In the secret meaning, the seeds, before they become, before they enter the stream, literally, but like before they arise?

[Speaker 1]
Well, here it means, let's say you take a seed at three o'clock in the afternoon, okay? And then you look at its stream into the future, okay? So the three o'clock seed, okay, it streams on, and can we say it is separate or can we say it's the same as the seed at four o'clock?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, okay. Now that's a, he says, now that's a separate question. Is the three o'clock seed separate from the four o'clock seed that came out of it, okay?

If the seed is, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
I asked this question once. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
In a Dharma class, because it's like, because it's like, when does the effects of any given cause actually end? Yeah, good. Yeah.

Well, here, I think what they're discussing is, before the seed opens, and the seed's sitting in your mind for a couple billion years, does it have a continuum? And we say, yes. Well, that implies that the seed of one moment triggers the seed of the next moment.

It triggers its own continuum, right? Yes. So is that seed of four o'clock, is it thadepa from the seed at three o'clock or not, okay?

And he's pointing out that you're having other, other difficulties talking about whether seeds are separate or not, even from themselves, okay? Is the seed at four o'clock separate from the seed at three o'clock? We've been discussing whether the seed is separate from the kunshi, and we decided neither one.

Then he says, well, is the seed separate from itself? Because there's a seed at three o'clock, and it produces a seed at four o'clock. Are those two separate, okay?

And then he says, well, you got to get into the kinds of kints, all right? All right. Wow.

And we, say again?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize it was going on.

[Speaker 1]
We've been discussing whether seeds are separate from the refrigerator, and now we're discussing are seeds separate from the seeds that come out of them, okay? Seeds of the future, okay? And what's the status of that?

And he says, well, you want to know that, you got to get into the question of what kind of kin are we dealing with, okay? So luckily, you guys, we've been through all the kints, right? The four kinds of kints, okay?

So what's a gyuri kint?

[Speaker 2]
Just another name for a cause.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I believe it's, I believe you're right. Any, anything, any factor or any condition which serves in a causal sense is called a cause condition, okay? So can you say that the seed at three o'clock was a condition for the seed at four o'clock, yes or no?

Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Sure.

[Speaker 1]
So they have to be separate, right? This is a good part, wow. And here's the part from, if you're interested, this is where you can pick it up in Mahayana Sangraha.

Okay, maybe we should read this. Five minutes. Let's read this part, word for fun.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, start at so-so or start at kunshi?

[Speaker 1]
At kunshi, yeah. Okay. Okay.

Yes, please. Okay, this is hard, okay? And this is the Mahayana Sangraha itself.

So Lord Arya Sangha is saying, kunshi nabar shepa la kunne nyonmongpay choky sabun. Let's say you have kunshi nabar shepa, okay? And in the kunshi nabar shepa is a seed for kunne nyonmongpa.

[Speaker 2]
For all things kleshik.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so in the seed of the foundation consciousness, in the foundation consciousness you have a seed which keeps your mind messed up, okay? Are they, de dak chi, de dak chi means, hey, are those separate or not, okay? Is the seed and the foundation consciousness separate or not?

De dam. So-so ta de, are they separate? Dam.

Or, un te, are they rather? Ta de pa mayin bar. Or do those seeds stay in the mind as not separate from the mind, okay?

Shena, what's that?

[Speaker 2]
Um, question mark.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, if you ask me, are they, who's talking? Arya Sangha. Who asked him a question?

Somebody asked him a question and said, when you have a seed in your mind that's going to mess up your life, is that part of the mind or is that separate from the mind? And he says, de la nepa de dak dang dze su ta de pa, yang mayin. First, this yang means, first of all, it's ta de mayin.

[Speaker 2]
Um, it is not separate.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, as far as substance, okay? As far as one being the other, okay? But I would also have to say, ta mi de pa mayin.

Admittedly, I have to say they're also not, not separate. Yeah, good, good, good. kam de jungway tuyul kyepar chen.

When the kung qi itself takes on a high degree of potential, okay, we call it a savan. Okay, that's all. When something like that happens, when the refrigerator takes on a characteristic of having high potential to do something else, we call it a siddha.

Okay, it's just a potential to do something else, which is already the kung qi. So any part of the kung qi which might trigger something, we can call it a siddha. Okay, cool.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, so Jason Kappa, Arya Sangha, and Calcutta Chu Jing, Maung Pal Dun, all agree.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think he just keeps, he keeps hitting on it because it's so difficult. It's so much human nature to think of a seed as a watermelon seed in a watermelon rather than the possibility that the mind might go somewhere.

Maybe we should come up with a better name for them then. Yeah, yeah. The possibility that the mind might go somewhere.

Yeah. Okay. The whole thing of description about the mind-only school that people talk about and have talked about for, what, hundreds of years, is that they came up with a, with a consciousness that has to hold the seeds.

[Speaker 3]
But that's ridiculous. That doesn't make sense to mind-only. Not only does it not make sense at all, it doesn't make sense to mind-only because...

[Speaker 1]
But it's so helpful to think of a refrigerator. I don't know. As they have always done.

We're at time, Geshe-la. Okay. By the way, he has mentioned that the expanded explanation of the Mahayana Sangraha.

And I listed all of the commentaries here. And I was trying to figure out which one might be considered the expanded explanation. And to me, the one called Shejar is the biggest one.

So I think he's talking about Shejar. Okay. Right here.

See this one, it's over a hundred folios. Hundred, full folios. So it's 200 pages.

And I would call that the Geshe. Okay. Here's Dönsang.

It's only 50 pages, 70 pages. So that's all. And so I went to find for your word in Shejar, the section that they're talking about.

And it's here. Okay. Here's the discussion.

And we're going to pick up here next time. Wait. You did a good job.

Oh, this is hard stuff. But once you figure it out, it's figured out. And if you keep avoiding it, you know, which is tempting, you never resolve it.

So this is just like cleaning your bathroom once in a while. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Seeds aren't seeds. Check. I got it.

Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Well, I guess the whole reason to discuss it is that it's so, it's so tricky trying to catch a seed and change it in your mind, right? Yeah. The whole point is we're trying to change our seeds, right?

So, all right. By the way, next he's going to talk about what kind of can is a seed. And it would be worthwhile for Mr. Word, maybe in your course, to talk about the four different kinds of cans again, so that we can have a good class next time. Isn't there a Stanley's text? Exactly. And we spent a lot of time in it.

So go to the Abhidharma expert and say, look, Geshe-la says we talked about the four cans already. It's going to come up heavy in my text next time. Could I just review it with you?

So Geshe-la wants me to put it in my homework, so we can have a decent class next time. Okay. Wait, should I do it before next class or after next class?

Because... Oh, I think you should do it. It should be part of your upcoming homework at the beginning of the next class.

And then everybody's mind will be clear of what the four cans are. Okay. Including grandpa.

I'm sure Stanley won't mind whipping that up for me, right, Stanley?

[Speaker 2]
No, I'd love to. We haven't finished the detour yet.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, but we just have like two sentences left to go on the detour. Don't tell me that, Stanley.

[Speaker 3]
Yay.

[Speaker 1]
We finished the meat of the detour.

[Speaker 3]
True.

[Speaker 1]
All right. I'll see you guys in a few minutes. Well, we have a Q&A session up next here in the...

[Speaker 3]
Oh, sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.