Вордсмит — Книга 2: Трудные места школы «Ум только», занятие 27

[Speaker 3]
Literally, it feels like a trap.

[Speaker 1]
Literally, you're supposed to give the wrong answer. Go ahead.

[Speaker 3]
Yay. Somebody mute Geshe-la's speaker. One substance.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, or what? No, no, no.

[Speaker 1]
Literally, what is it? A single substance. Yeah, exactly.

Good. Or same stuff or something like that, right? Because ze is like stuff or substance.

Okay, how is it best translated?

[Speaker 3]
Upala had it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, whoever can say it, though.

[Speaker 3]
Speak words. To be one is to be the other.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. To be blank is to be blank. Okay.

Here we go. Hold on. Are the seeds and the foundation conscious to be one is to be the other or separate?

[Speaker 3]
Wow.

[Speaker 2]
Neither.

[Speaker 1]
Yay. Perfect. Okay.

Bonus question. Is Ai-chan in class? Oh, how many dollars for that answer?

Zero. Zero. Bonus knowledge, not money.

Wait, Ai-chan's not here. Is anyone, anyone who was in the Q&A with me today, do they want to answer this question? Great.

[Speaker 2]
What's the question again?

[Speaker 1]
I'm not telling you the question first.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, sorry. 24.

[Speaker 1]
I'll try. Okay. Okay, Hasso.

Okay, good, good. Perfect. Hasso's a good, a good victim.

Here we go, Hasso. You ready?

[Speaker 2]
Ready.

[Speaker 1]
It's long. It's the bonus. Okay.

I'll answer and stay asking. If something is physical, does that mean it's physical? Yes or no?

Yay.

[Speaker 2]
Yay. Italian.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, exactly. Or quotes, or the physical or physicality, all those would work. If something is physical, does that mean, does that make it physical?

If something is physical, if it, are you saying that it possess the quality of physical? Is that what you're saying? I'm saying what I just said.

You need to use your, your hands expressions to be more clear. I use the italics. Cause that's okay.

Okay. If something is physical, that makes it physical. No.

You got this. If, if something is okay. If something is physicality itself, is that physical?

No. Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Physicality itself.

[Speaker 1]
It's a concept, isn't it? Physicality itself. If something is the reason everything is physical, is that physical?

If something is the reason, no, because that's it, isn't it? The reason.

[Speaker 3]
Reason is a fact. Unchanging. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
I'm on his side.

[Speaker 1]
It's a mutiny. Okay. Oh, sounds good to me.

How, how does this relate to a concept which is called the door to seeing emptiness? Oh, that's nice. How does that relate to go ahead?

Basically you're asking why this can help us to see emptiness. No. I said, how does it relate?

How does it relate? I guess it teaches us to start realizing the difference between what we think we see versus what we actually are seeing. That's good.

Yeah. Money. Yeah.

Betz was willing to give you money. What is the name of that concept in Tibetan?

[Speaker 2]
Chi Chedra. Chi Chedra. Wait, this is Hasso.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, he lost connection, he said.

[Speaker 3]
Just because he offers you money doesn't mean he's offered you money.

[Speaker 1]
No, just because he offered you money doesn't mean he offered you money. Hasso, are you still there? Sorry, I'm losing connection, but now I hear you again.

I lost you for a moment. No problem. What is the name of that concept in Tibetan?

The door to seeing emptiness. Chi Chedra. Perfect.

Okay. Okay, here we go. We're going to keep going down the rabbit hole here.

What is the translation of that concept into English? Concept? Literal bad and good translation.

There is two kinds when you can say general and specific, or you can say also group and subset or set and subset. Okay, is set and subset good or bad translation? Bad for this analysis.

The bad one. General and specific. Is that the literal or the good one?

It's a good one. You can use it, but it's a literal one. What's the best way to put it?

I just forgot. It's mental image and manifestation. No.

Mental image and manifestation of that image. That's okay. I mean, that's right.

I mean, that's more how I think of Chi Tsen and Rong Tsen. Sorry, I forgot. But now I remember.

Quality and characteristic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the one Keshla goes with.

Of course. Okay. I think, did I?

Wait. I didn't write it in the part here, but are you willing to explain quality and characteristics succinctly to us? As far as I understand.

Quality. Like, let's say quality. Do it in terms of a car.

Make it easy. A car. Okay.

A car. Car is the quality and any object that you can identify as a car is an object who possess the quality of car and therefore is a characteristic of car. Okay.

Fine. I'm not going to push it more than that.

[Speaker 3]
Phew. I'm sweating words.

[Speaker 1]
Yay. Yay. Thank you.

Fine. I'll send you 50 bucks. Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Awesome. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. You did good. Good job.

Rented wisely. There's not more coming. First person in the universe to get money from words.

Not true. Okay. Here's the, here's the Tibetan.

Mabe? Jigme says my bad.

[Speaker 3]
Don't, don't try. Don't, don't.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, basically. Not to make an effort or something. Tade?

Separate? Yep, exactly. Um, Kong Yong Min?

Senator Bogle say? Come on. Kong Yong Min.

[Speaker 3]
It's not, not both.

[Speaker 1]
Something's not. Neither. Cause you said it earlier.

That's the neither from the text. Haso? Yes.

I will give you another $50 if you do this next one right. Wow. Kang Young.

Which one?

[Speaker 3]
No, no.

[Speaker 1]
Here we go.

[Speaker 3]
That's hard.

[Speaker 1]
Which one? Which one? I want you to Joel Oak.

Quality and characteristic. Perfectly.

[Speaker 2]
Quality and characteristic. No, no. Yeah.

Now I remember. Yeah. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
No. You were on the right track, Haso. No clue.

Nah, man. I'll give you one more try.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Back. Uh huh.

Good. And it's not geeky. Yeah.

Oh, okay. Um. I.

Eat. Wow. Cancel.

Cancel. That canceled. Does anybody want to try to reveal it?

[Speaker 3]
Is. It's hard. Oh, go ahead, Ben.

Go ahead. I'm going to be in trouble then. Now I'm in trouble.

Someone.

[Speaker 2]
Someone else can do that.

[Speaker 3]
Hey.

[Speaker 2]
I attack. Go, go, go, go.

[Speaker 3]
I'm not. We're not going for money. Money passed.

It's all right. This is just for prestige. And I didn't get any.

[Speaker 1]
Anybody. I got that. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Good. She.

Oh, sorry.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Oh.

[Speaker 2]
Well, it's.

[Speaker 1]
And there's no. Yeah. Sorry.

Oh, it is easy as it could be. Yeah, there it is. Okay, good try, everybody.

Oh, you literally typed out the whole spelling. That's awesome. I did.

Yeah, I did the whole thing for funsies. Okay, Geshe-la, is he there? Yes.

How much money are you paying for me? I take your money. Isn't that our arrangement?

Yeah, okay, okay, okay. Here's the verse I did. I just did the next one.

I didn't get an official assignment. I just did the next one.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
ZUK'I TSE MA YIN NA, ZUK'I TSE MA YIN NA, TSE PHYI PAR YIN NA, TSE SHEN PAR MIN, PHYI TSE MI SHEN PAR MIN, TE YIN PA'I TSIG PAS. Yeah, by the way, okay, let's see here. ZUK'I TSE MA YIN NA.

The English doesn't make sense. Something, oh, something, excuse me, sorry. If something is physicality, excuse me, it is not physical.

Then to be it is not to be physical, nor to be it is to be other than to be physical. ZUK'I TSE MA YIN NA, ZUK'I TSE MA YIN NA, TSE PHYI PAR YIN NA, TSE SHEN PAR MIN, PHYI TSE MI SHEN PAR MIN, TE YIN PA'I TSIG PAS. No, if something is not physicality, ZUK'I TSE MA YIN NA, right?

Okay, if something is not physicality, ZUK'I TSE MA YIN NA, ZUK'I TSE MA YIN NA. Okay, if something is not physicality, then it is both, then to be it is to be physical, and to be it is also not to be physical. Then to be it is to be physical, right?

Because it's TSE PHYI PAR YIN. Then to be it is to be physical, and to be it is to be something other than physical. So you're doing the angs as ands, not ors?

Yeah, why? Because it has to be an insane statement. Yeah, it has to be both physical and not physical.

You see what I mean? Then to be it is to be other than... Okay, yeah.

Yeah, good. These are insane words, right? These are insane words.

and we refuse, ko-o-chak means us guys, we refuse to debate with an insane person. Isn't there some debate ground saying, that's why I translated it. In fact, I wanted to point that out.

This is a very common idiom in the debate ground. You know, like if a person doesn't follow the rules of logic in the debate ground, you say, okay, let's cancel. Let's cancel the debate because you're not following the rules of logic.

And there's no use to debate with crazy people. It's a very common way to shut somebody down. If they refuse to follow the rules of logic, if they refuse to follow the three confirmation steps, for example, then you say, okay, then you go debate with some other guy because it's no use to debate with you because you're not following the rules of formal logic.

Yeah, good. It's interesting you got that one word. No, I'm just saying it's a very, it's one of the most useful things you can have to say in the debate ground, you know.

People say it to me all the time. Yeah, no, I mean, okay. All right, good job.

Okay. You did a good homework. Thank you.

You did a good job on the homework. Okay, so I'll go to my screen. Here we go.

Okay, we're in a very, very difficult subject, extremely difficult part. Anytime you see English in the translation, it means it was hard for me. So what I did was, I went to see if anyone else worked on this section and I found somebody.

It's really, really nice. Let me see. And I'd like to go there where, do you remember in the Golden Key, sometimes we would just go to another author and work on that for a while and put it in your appendix?

Yeah, we did it with Chöjyö Narayen Pelden. Yeah, well, I'll tell you what. This Mongol scholar called Chöjyö, Dharma Lord Narayen Pelden.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, same.

[Speaker 1]
He wrote course six of the Diamond Way courses at Diamond Mountain. He wrote the whole course, which was called the Levels and Paths of the Diamond Way. And it was a whole course.

Yeah, Sapnamshak, which Rinpoche taught part of it and then he never finished it. So we finished it. And we finished the whole thing and we translated the whole thing.

But he's a great, great, great scholar. Extraordinary scholar. Isn't his name Extraordinary Scholar or something, his nickname?

His name is Extraordinary Scholar. By the way, Kalka means Mongol. Kalka.

Kalka. And Chöjyö means Dharma Lord, yeah. So anyway, he has a wonderful treatment of this same section.

And it's easier to understand. Is it his Chodron to the Prajnaparamita? Yeah, which is...

Now, that brings me to another subject. I'm going to stop sharing this and start sharing something else. Which is this.

So there's a genre of literature called Chidin and Tathagata, okay? So the great topics of the Geshe course, the five great topics, 12 years in Lower Middle Way, four years in Higher Middle Way, two years in Abhidharma, two years in Vinaya, and then logic every winter for three months, for 24 years, okay? Each of those great five topics has two textbooks.

And the first topic, which is Lower Middle Way, which in the monastery is called Bonobonomito, Prajnaparamita, okay? And it's not, it's just Lower Middle Way, but the nickname is Prajnaparamita. So they say, what class are you in?

And you say, I'm doing Prajnaparamita. It means I'm in my first 12 years. The book is Muntokhyen Abhisamaya Alankara by Maitreya, which means the Jewel of Realizations.

It's 75 pages. You have to memorize it before you come into the class. Before you're allowed to enter the course, you have to memorize it.

So most children memorize it by the age of 15. You start your Geshe studies at 15, usually. So I started at 30.

And so we debated, it's a 12-year course. Imagine to cover 75 pages. You cover six pages a year, and you're working 10, 12 hours a day on it.

It's extraordinary. It's an extraordinary text. It blows your mind.

It totally blows your mind. And it has eight chapters, okay? That book has eight chapters.

And our textbook from Seramaye, which was written in about 1550, is the most extraordinary explanation of the Abhisamaya Alankara I've ever seen. It's an extraordinary treatment. And it has eight volumes.

It's one book for each chapter, okay? And each volume, like this first volume of 77 folios, that comes out to about 600 pages in English. If you translate it into English, it's 600 pages.

Just the first chapter, okay? And there's eight chapters, okay? And it's extraordinary.

And that's what I grew up on. And that's what's the second course of the ACI's courses on refuge. I took the cream of the topics out of that book.

So anyway, the textbooks will be two. One is called Chidin, which is an overview of the whole subject. And the other is called Tatya, which means dialectical analysis, which means two guys are tearing it apart with debate, and extreme debate, unbelievable debate, okay?

And so Madhyamika has an overview and a dialectical analysis. Prajnaparamita has, Vinaya has, Abhidharma has, and Logic has, two books. And we saved those books.

The first book ever printed by ACIP was a lost book from that series about the Wheel of Life, which is part of the Prajnaparamita course. And the lion's dance is a big part of the Prajnaparamita course, for example. So I was thinking Tim has worked really hard to learn Tibetan.

He's been taking extra courses on the side, in addition to all his other work. And he keeps asking, he put Tibetan in all of the, he wrote out the Tibetan in all the lines. Every time I mentioned a Tibetan word, he found it.

And then he would come and ask me these weird words, like, tapa tasa nyi rikpa, in the hypothetical case that, and I'm like, where the hell did you hear that? He said, you mentioned it. How do you spell it?

And he's trying to find out how to spell it. So I just thought he deserves a book. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but there is this book that I should translate in my lifetime, which is the Prajnaparamita, these eight books, which will be 2,500 pages.

It'll be 20 years of work. And this is it, okay? That's the, it's called The Garland of White Lotus Flowers, okay?

The eight books together are called The Garland of White Lotus Flowers. Okay, Pema Karpatoa, say, Pema Karpatoa. Yeah, The Garland of White Lotus Flowers, okay, Pema Karpatoa.

The White Lotus is the actual name of the Lotus Sutra, okay? So it's not called the Lotus Sutra, it's called the White Lotus Sutra, okay? Anyway, why did I mention that?

I'm not just bragging about Tim. Oh, so the Mongols had their own textbooks and they also wrote a parallel textbook in Mongolia. And this is one of the great Mongol scholars.

And he discusses words, difficult section. In that book, the parallel Prajnaparamita book, he discusses this difficult part from Tsongkhapa's mind-only book, okay? Because it relates to something he's talking about.

And he discusses it in his typical, you know, flawless way. So I'd like to, word I'd like to go to that because our life will be easier. And I'd like to make it a, I would like to make it an appendix to your new book because it's brilliant.

It's a brilliant treatment. And then we can do the one that Tsongkhapa did, okay? You don't have a choice, actually.

I'm just being nice. Okay, so we're going to start here. What's a gac gac rail?

All right. So word, Mr. Kramer, can you check? Oh, let's let Tim for good luck.

Tim, can you check him, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, so what folio is that? Because we don't have it in our text. I just want to make sure I'm at the right spot.

[Speaker 1]
Should I send it to you? Don't you have it?

[Speaker 2]
I don't want to take time from the class, that's okay.

[Speaker 1]
No, I can send it to you quickly. Hang on. I'm sorry.

So I didn't send you Word's latest version, right?

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, hang on. Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Just send it to you, Utpala, you can post it.

Yep. A new, new Word text. Okay, we can do that.

I can't get to it. I'm going to have to stop the share. Hang on.

Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. I'm working fast Word, don't worry.

[Speaker 2]
You can take the time out of my class.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, all of your classes.

[Speaker 2]
No, not all of them.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Internet, sheesh. Okay, I sent it to you.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you so much, Kim.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, here we go. Okay. Please read Word and Tim is checking you.

[Speaker 2]
You're muted.

[Speaker 1]
You're muted. You got to pay $50 now. What am I doing wrong?

Oh, it's coming. The text is coming. There you go.

Translate. I don't know. I don't know what the Tay is referring to, but just like that, those potentials, as they are planted in the place they're planted in that foundation.

In four different ways, which you don't know about yet. Okay. Yeah, have four aspects of consciousness.

And how is it, you may ask, how is it that they are appearing in that place or that consciousness? Yeah, how did they stay in the refrigerator basically? How did the seeds stay in the refrigerator?

Explain to me how the seeds stay in the refrigerator. Okay. All right.

Read the next one. Tim will check you on this one too. NAMEN GYI KUN ZHIG CHE BU CHEN PAS NUGPA LA SABEN GYI KUN ZHIG ZHES THAG SOK PA TZAM YIN GYI RANG GI NGO BA LOGS SU SUM DU YOD PAS ZAS GRUB MA YIN TE This is a mind-blowing clarification of Tsongkhapa already.

Okay. So it's worth the time we took to get to it. Okay.

What's NAMEN GYI KUN ZHIG word? That is the Britten. Nope.

It's the one which has already ripened. It's the refrigerator. Okay.

So the refrigerator, which is a karmic ripening already, which already ripened from seeds. Is that Britten then? Seeds which haven't opened yet.

That's Ritten or Britten? It's the Ritten because the seeds are the Britten. Okay.

Okay. Okay. So those first five words, NAMEN GYI KUN ZHIG means the refrigerator from the point of view of something which has already ripened from seeds to hold the other seeds.

The refrigerator itself has ripened from seeds and now it's holding the seeds which still have to ripen. I like to see it as a coating on, you know, I don't know, a coating on something wet and dried on the outside. You see, it used to be the liquid and now it's dried on the outside and it's holding the rest of the liquid.

You see what I mean? So the container has ripened from the same seeds that it's holding. The first seeds to open became a container.

And now it's holding the other seeds which haven't opened yet. So all discussions of alaya-vijñāna, all discussions of storehouse consciousness talk about two divisions of storehouse consciousness. The Ritten, which is the table, and the Britten, which is the glass on top of it.

The Britten is the seeds. The refrigerator is the table, Ritten. Okay.

So now he's talking about, let's look at kunshi from the point of view of having already na-min-du, already ripened, which means the container which is now holding the other seeds. Got it? You good?

Or you can say it's the ground on which the other seeds were planted or smeared. The verb is always smeared in the sense of how you put sandalwood on a piece of cloth, and then it imbues the cloth, okay? That's how seeds are supposedly planted in the consciousness.

Similar process, okay? Good. Okay.

Now here's a really unbelievable presentation. What's jebu jimbe nupa mean? Isn't jimba like juicing something or getting the essence out of it?

Read it backwards. The power of the essence of those results or something? No, this means to give a result, okay?

This is give. Oh, the ability to give a result. Yeah.

The ability to give a result, which is part of the refrigerator, is sabin ki kunshi. Translate. What happened to you?

Man, this is important. Oh, word. Translate.

That's sabin ki kunshi. Oh, the seeds of the foundation consciousness. That's the seed part of foundation consciousness.

The capacity of the refrigerator to produce results is the seed foundation consciousness. Or the ripened part of the foundation consciousness. Yeah.

The ability of the refrigerator to spit out new results is karmic seeds. Yeah. Is the part, the ability of the refrigerator part to spit out new productions like this class, okay?

Is the karmic seed which are contained in the refrigerator. So the whole storehouse consciousness is divided into two parts. The part which has ripened already, which is the refrigerator.

And the part which hasn't ripened yet, which is lying inside. But if you ask me, what are the seeds inside? They are only the part of the refrigerator which has the power to spit out the world.

And we call it seeds, but it's not really seeds. It's part of the refrigerator that has the potential to spit out world. It's amazing.

And we call that seeds. So we're trying to make it simple for you. We say, oh, seeds are staying in the refrigerator.

But it's not really that. Everything's in the refrigerator. And the refrigerator is spitting out new pieces of the world for you.

And when it does that, we call it that part a seed. And that's his insight, unbelievable insight by this Mongolian, okay? And if we rely on this train of thought, that's the first sentence in two pages.

If we rely on this train of thought, you will understand Tsongkhapa's presentation finally. Okay? So hang in there.

Isn't it beautiful? I think so. She, she, takpa.

We just call it seed. But it's just the refrigerator spitting out the world. When the refrigerator spits out the world, we call it a seed.

Okay. All right. Got it?

Okay. Tom, nothing more than that. Yinki, keep going.

Yinki. Yeah, we just call them seeds. But yeah, yeah, exactly.

We just give it the label seed. But it's just the foundation consciousness part, which is spitting out the world at this moment. Okay.

But it's not the case that ranggih ngawo lokso sung tu yukpe dze. There's dze. There's the substance we've been struggling with, okay?

It's not the case that their very essence is such that they are, have some kind of substance to them, have some physicality to them. You're hanging up on lokso sung tu yukpe, okay? You're hanging up on lokso sung tu yukpe.

Lokso means apart or separately. Okay. Sung means dze.

Yeah, I know dze. I know sung means to hold something. Now explain this part again.

Ranggih ngawo lokso sung tu yukpe dze juk mayin. Oh, it's not the case that their essence is somehow apart from something which is physical or substantial. Yeah.

There's no substantial seeds that you could ever identify separate from the refrigerator, okay? Lokso sung tu yukpe dze. There's no stuff in the alaya vijnana which you could take out separately and say, oh, that was the seeds.

The whole refrigerator is the seeds. When they give something, we call them seeds, but they're not real seeds. They're not separate from the rest of the refrigerator.

They're no separate substance from the rest of the refrigerator. And we've been struggling with the word substance, dze jik, dze jik, because Tsongkhapa's original question was, what? What's the relationship between the seeds and the refrigerator?

Is to be one to be the other, or is to be one not to be the other? And he uses the logic term dze jik, materially one, but we know the deeper meaning. Got it?

Yeah, he agreed. Maitre agreed, word. So it's very cool.

He says there's no separate substance that you could take apart and say, well, that's the seeds. It's all the refrigerator. When the capacity of parts of the refrigerator to give the world is named seed, but it's not separate.

It's not a separate thing. So what's the answer to Tsongkhapa's question? Is the seeds part of the foundation consciousness, or are the seeds separate from foundation consciousness?

Tsongkhapa says, neither. Okay, Tsongkhapa says neither, and that's why we're hung up. All right, we got a nice...

Oh, it's so beautiful. Okay, next one. I mean, if your students think they know mind only, you can screw with their mind further.

Okay, go ahead, word. SA BON DE NI RANG GI RTEN DU GYUR BA GYUR BA'I NANG ZHIG DANG ZHIG TSUL KHRIBS PA'I PHYIG DANG THA DE GANG YANG MA YIN TE PHYIR TE Now here's the answer to our whole confusion so far. SA BON DE NI, those seeds, those seeds, okay, are they substantially one with the refrigerator, or are they substantially separate from the refrigerator?

Tsongkhapa's answer is, they are not substantial. How can you ask the question? They don't have a substantial separate existence.

You cannot take part of the refrigerator part and say that's the seeds. Only when the refrigerator spits out world, you can quickly say that was seed. That part of the refrigerator was seed.

Got it? But there doesn't exist any separate entity, ze, substance, which you can say is seeds, which is part. The reason it can't be part of the refrigerator, and it can't be not part of the refrigerator, is because it doesn't exist.

Because it's just called a seed, and it has no real existence. It's when the refrigerator feels like spitting out some blue, we call that event a seed, but it's not a separate thing. Okay?

Why do you use that word? It's convenient when you're teaching students to be good people. Don't make bad seeds.

[Speaker 3]
Didn't we get into a whole bunch of different qualities of seeds?

[Speaker 1]
So, word, now we have a clue. The reason why the seeds are not the same as the refrigerator, and not separate from the refrigerator in a substantial way, is that they are not substantial. Okay?

That's the koan. That's the resolution of the koan. All right.

Keep going. Tete tang zetsu jupe chikma yinpa khang shik zetsu jupe tade ma yinpe yech Translate it. By the way, the day day means the seeds and the refrigerator.

The first day is seeds. The second day is refrigerator. So, it's not the case that the seeds and the refrigerator are to be one is to be the other.

[Speaker 2]
In a hurry, I need my go-bed fixed.

[Speaker 3]
Yes.

[Speaker 2]
What did you do? Pretend to be someone else's bed.

[Speaker 1]
And it's not the case- That's not an insubstantial refrigerator. Oh, no. Go ahead.

And it is not the case that the seeds and the refrigerator are to be one is to be the other. Or from having some substantialness. I don't know.

Yeah. They are not something substantial which is the same. And they are not something substantial which is separate.

Because they are not something which is substantial. Because they cannot be taken apart as a separate substance and said, this is something. These are the seeds and this is the refrigerator.

Only when the refrigerator decides to spit out something, you've got to quickly say, oh, that was that seed. That part of the refrigerator is seed. Okay, got it?

Okay. Okay, so he's going to address now, is it true that the seeds are not the mind? Okay, is it true that the seeds are not a separate entity from the mind?

Okay. Substantially. Here we go.

If you disagree that they're not, then you're saying they are. It's substantially the same thing. The seeds are the mind.

Okay. Keep going. DANG PO MA GRUB NA DANG PO MA GRUB NA THEG PA'I DANG GCIG YIN PA LTAR DANG PO MA GRUB PA DE'I PHYIR Keep going.

Okay. DUN NA Oh, yeah. I'm sorry.

If they are not substantially separate, sorry, then they must be GCIG. To be one is to be other. Yeah.

If the seeds are not substantially separate from the refrigerator, then they must be one and the same thing, because you refuse the idea that they're separate. Okay. That's what he said just now.

Now, if you agree that they are not separate, okay, if you agree that they are one thing, that the seeds... Now, keep going. DUN NA, if you agree.

DUN NA, SAB YID KUN ZHIG THEG LA MID NAM YOD PAR THEG PA'I THANG Stop there. And you can translate it. You can figure it out.

Because you know these three reasons why the seeds cannot be the refrigerator. Okay. You know these three reasons from the Golden Key, which you translated for five years.

Okay. If you agree with that, the seeds of the kunshi... No, sorry.

The seed part of the kunshi. Okay. The seed part of the kunshi.

The seed part of the kunshi itself... What's miknam? That's what you're hung up on, miknam.

It's the whole part of aspect or whatever, or the... Aspect. Could they have yuls of perception?

Could they have objects of perception? Could the seeds be seeing something? Could the seed part of the refrigerator be looking at something?

No, they do not have consciousness. YOD PAR THANG No, meh. If you say the seeds are the refrigerator, then the seeds must be observing the world.

Then the seeds must be a brain, a kind of brain, you know. Okay. If you say they are kunshi, they are foundation consciousness, then consciousness always, according to Stanley's text, consciousness always has a counterpart that it's looking at.

Okay. So miknam means, do they have that aspect? Are they taking on an object?

Are you saying that the seeds are taking an object? Why do you say that? You said the seeds were substantially the kunshi.

Kunshi is a state of mind. All states of mind have objects. Are you saying seeds take objects?

Okay. All right. Which means they would be made of consciousness, but they are not.

They are potentials. They are invisible potentials. They haven't done, they're not activated yet.

It's weird. All right. Okay.

So first, if you say that the seeds are substantially the refrigerator, and by the way, this is the easy part, then the seeds must be seeing something. Miknam means they must have an aspect of perception.

[Speaker 3]
Is Tsongkapa talking or is this...

[Speaker 1]
This is Norman Bellman. But he's clarifying Tsongkapa, because Tsongkapa says these things, but he doesn't, he's not as provided really in this case. Okay.

Okay. What's the second reason, word, why the seeds cannot be the refrigerator? Here it comes.

DRO NGES SA PA'I RNAMS PHEN GZUN MIN RGYAL BAR THAL BA?

[Speaker 2]
No, you don't go up or down.

[Speaker 1]
THAL BA THANG No, you don't go up or down. It's just THAL BA. They would have to be.

Oh, it would have to be the case that the seeds that create the five realms. No, not the five realms yet. The five droas.

Okay. The five types of realmers. Rebirth.

Yeah, the five types of rebirth. That's good. Would not be contradictory.

Yeah. In other words, if a seed were supposed to produce a human birth, then it could also produce a hell realm birth at the same time.

[Speaker 2]
This is a mix.

[Speaker 1]
And the seeds would not be exclusive, mutually exclusive anymore. Why? And by the way, I'll give you the reason ahead of time, okay?

And I want you to charge your word. We already did it, right? Yeah, we did it.

Perception is something of a moment. The present moment is this wide. Yeah, because any perception in the present moment would include a kunshi, which had all five seeds in it.

And therefore all five seeds would be all jumbled up and ripened simultaneously. Exactly. The present moment is indivisible.

Well, divisible would be past, present, and future. The present moment is indivisible. Therefore, all beings in the universe have seeds in their mind to take all five rebirths all the time.

We all have hell realm seeds now. We all have animal seeds now. It's just a question of which one comes up first this time.

Okay? And if all the seeds were the foundation consciousness, then they would all activate in the present moment. Okay?

And you'd be a horse and a human at the same time. Okay? Yay, that's the easy part.

What's the third reason why the seeds cannot be the foundation consciousness? Substantially. Drupal, Asope, Kamsum, Khyang, Pinson, Miguel, Wattel.

Because the desire realm and the other realm, the other two that make up the three realms would also be all mixed up. Yeah, would no longer be mutually exclusive. Okay?

You could be in the desire realm and in the formless realm at the same time. Because they would all ripen at the same time. That's interesting because the second reason is talking about ripening into the occupant of a realm.

And the third reason is talking about the ripening of the realm which is occupied. Got it? Okay, cool.

Then the other guy says, why the hell you got this? I don't agree to any of these three. And we say, yes you do.

Because you agree, what? You agreed, the seeds... The seeds what?

The seeds were. Yeah, were foundation consciousness in a sense. Yeah.

Okay, got it? I'll repeat. If the seeds are foundation consciousness substantially, then the seeds are seeing things.

Then the seeds are all jumbled up into the five kinds of beings in any given moment. And all the three realms are jumbled up as the place that those beings occupy. If the seeds are the mind.

If the seeds are the foundation consciousness. And not just a name put on the foundation consciousness when it spits something out. Got it?

Cool. All right. Okay, then what's this quotation he uses to prove it?

He says, in order to express what we just talked about, somebody wrote a verse. It looks like verse 24 and 25 of the book. It's Tsongkhapa's root text.

The Mongol scholar is saying, somebody wanted to express these ideas and he wrote a poem called Difficult Points on Mind-Only School. And that's what we're testing. Okay.

All right. So we don't have to go through that. Right?

Right. Now, there were two original statements. One was, mind, foundation consciousness and the seeds are not the same.

And the second one was, they are the same. When he disagreed that they were not the same, he was saying they were the same and we got these three problems. Okay.

Now we gotta go back to the second of the original statements, which was, they are not the same. And then the guy's gonna say, I disagree, which means, they are the same. Okay.

Or some third choice. Okay. And by the way, he goes to such an unbelievable place.

You're gonna get, you're gonna pee-pee in your pants, I swear. Okay. Here we go.

No, it's unbelievable. We've been waiting for five years for this. Okay.

Go. The rest isn't parenthetical. So what's next?

Bhutan Patel. Yeah, good. Nyipa Madhubna.

I gotta get this straight in my mind before I talk about it. Hang on. Nyipa Madhubna.

If you disagree that they are not separate, that they are separate. So, okay. If you do agree that, if you do agree that the seeds are not the foundation consciousness, right?

We just proved that they are not the same. Yeah. If you do agree that they are separate.

Good, good, good. Okay. If you do agree they are separate, then let's talk about the sab ngi kun shi in the mind of a chirmyong.

What's a chirmyong? A non-returner. Don't come back to where?

Desire realm. They never return to the desire realm again. And shortly after that, they become arhat.

And they reach nirvana. They become arhat. Yeah.

Geshe-la, we're over time.

[Speaker 2]
Who's taking time out of my class?

[Speaker 1]
Let's take a few minutes out of her class. But by the way, there have been books written about this next topic. In fact, the textbook on the mind-only school from Serame only treats this one sentence.

It doesn't treat the rest of the mind-only school. Okay. That's how awesome it is.

Okay, here we go. Pham Lung Lo Sang Tuk Jey wrote it. And we saved it.

John Brady's project saved it. It was lost forever. And we printed it and it's up here somewhere.

Okay. Okay. Let's take the sab ngi kun shi.

What's that? The seven parts of the refrigerator. Okay.

The seed parts of the refrigerator. Sab ngi kun shi. Let's consider the seed parts of the refrigerator.

Che chen. Kun shi nam she yinpa ta. Okay.

If they're not separate. Right? Then, sorry, if they are separate.

If they are separate, yinpa ta. You're telling me it's, are you telling me those seeds, are you telling me the seed part of the refrigerator is the refrigerator? Why do you say that?

Keep going. Sok dang. Sok dang den min tang sok dun kang yang minpay che mi yong gi gyu kyi du che yinpay che.

Yeah, these are, these are produced things in the mental stream of a non-returner, which are neither physical nor mental. Okay? Seeds.

Remember there's three categories of changing things? What are they? Physical, mental, and neither physical nor mental.

And then changing things, which are neither physical nor mental. What are some examples? Classic examples.

Microbes. Microbes. Seeds and...

And seeds. Seeds are not mental because they don't...

[Speaker 2]
Think.

[Speaker 1]
Or perceive. Yeah. Why are they not physical?

I don't know. Let's stay in the mind. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
That window?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. So these seeds, these seeds, the seed part of the foundation consciousness is a changing thing in the mind of a non-returner, which is neither physical nor mental. Okay?

How's that? All right. Uh...

We should stop there and this is going to get long. But I got to say, by the time we finish this little vignette, you're going to understand Tsongkhapa finally. Om Mani Padme Hum.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And I'm so happy. I still feel so connected to them, to their comics. And you see, this is the connection.

We grew up with the comics. It's the second... All right, good.

We'll come back to you, Wern. Let's take a five minute break. Five minute pee pee break.

Thank you, daddy. Thank you, Geshe Michael. Thank you, Wern.

That's amazing class.

[Speaker 2]
Hello, Laura. Hello.

[Speaker 3]
How are you?

[Speaker 1]
Good, good. Long time no see.

[Speaker 3]
Yes, nice to see you and your daughter. What a love.

[Speaker 1]
Yes. Actually, she was looking at you yesterday and she was like, that's Rapunzel. Do you know who Rapunzel is?

No. It's like a story of this woman, a blonde lady, or in the movie she likes, with really, really long hair.

[Speaker 2]
Rapunzel.