Ник Лашо — Книга 2: Ратнамала, занятие 21

[Speaker 3]
That's the smart juice. Oh, this green screen makes a difference. Look.

I'm not like disappearing into it. Okay, and that's how Hollywood works.

[Speaker 1]
So, um, good morning everybody it's 6am and it's time to start class. And I also hope we're feeling extra smart because, unfortunately, the boss could not make it today. He had.

Oh, I see. Yeah, that's possible Tim.

[Speaker 2]
That would be really amazing.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so, um, so first of all, I want to offer an apology to everybody. We do not plan it this way but Keshe Michael had an appointment that he'd been waiting for for many months, and so he had to take it this morning. So instead of class with Keshe Michael you get the class with the mixed nuts.

And that's pretty awesome because he's been training us for like seven years and we have to learn how to do this stuff. We have to get good at it because not only do we want to learn this language and do we want to learn how to translate this language. We want to be able to spread the ability to translate this language.

And that's one of the goals of the mixed nuts is to translate hundreds of books, and maybe thousands. And there's no way that you know 10 or 12 of us are going to do that. I mean, I suppose there's a way but I don't see how it's possible so we need all of you are many of you to learn to do this as well.

So, here we go. We'll start with my book, because Tim just asked. And, and then we'll do Tim's book.

And let me find it because I wasn't quite ready. I mean I'm ready but I didn't have the text pulled up. And I'm sorry that you all did not get my quiz ahead of time.

But that's how it went this time, because we've been working on another project, while preparing for and doing the term. So now I'm looking on my desktop for my quiz, which I know is a thing because I made it last night. While you were all were sleeping, I hope.

So the way that I'm hoping that we can do this is, I'll show you guys what I translated so far which is a little bit. And we can go through it together. And you can all help me.

And then, man I still have to white out the answers hold on. And then we can go through this next the following sections together and I'll you know I'll try to translate it and the rest of you can share your thoughts with me, especially if you think you know it. All right, here we go.

So my book as most of you know is guts of J's commentary to Rotten Tamala string of jewels. And it's string of jewels or Rotten Tamala is Nagarjuna. This is amazing book.

Here we go. Can you guys see my quiz. Yes, yes.

Okay, wonderful. Okay, let me take another sip of this because I still feel really tired I wasn't ready for. Can you make a little bigger.

My tea, I wish. I'm going to do my best to not wake Emily if that happens.

[Speaker 2]
We're all in trouble.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, we're all gonna have to raise her together from here on out.

[Speaker 3]
Okay, got smaller rather than bigger.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. Okay, very good. All right, at this point in the text, Arianna guards and it gives us a summary of the 16 things that bring about the higher realms.

Please give your own summary of them. 16 things this is what we've been talking about, basically, thus far in this book. So I tried to make this quiz easy.

I'm often wrong about what's easy. But, um, gosh, what if we don't know this one. Oh yeah yeah.

And then we haven't been paying attention to the book. You got it. Lucas says it, the 13 not to do in the three to do.

Good. That's, that's really a great start and then that is Lucas own summary and Elmira's great job and can you elaborate a little bit, you don't have to name. There's a way to do it without naming all 13 and things not to do.

You can sum 10 of them up in one word. Perfections. Perfections.

Is that no 13 not to do so we do want to do the perfections. I think, I mean, depending on your motivation in life. Yeah, attendees plus alcohol.

Luca and Isabel, there's two more. Anybody can remember. Close Jasmine.

Jasmine. It's more broad than killing. Yeah, good not harming.

And then there's one other one. Yeah, somebody said pure life that's probably you're probably right. Not the five.

Don't do the five. Some things. Oh, so Jay, the.

Yes, yes, thank you. The wrong livelihoods. Okay, roughly there are 13 tend not virtues the five wrong livelihoods drinking alcohol and hurting people.

Oh whoops I forgot to ask about the second part, anybody want to tell me. Did you read it yet. The three things to take up.

If you just saw it you can still answer. Is that the respect others. And then love.

Perfect. Thank you. Awesome.

Nice work, everybody. We did it, we know where we're at in the book. Who is scared by the words of the victor.

What problem do they have. Specifically, that causes them to be afraid. People who aren't ready to hear explanations on emptiness.

That's true. Um, he says something a little bit more specific, or he gives he uses a phrase. She does.

Yeah, good. And then what, what's their specific problem that causes them to be afraid. Oh, good.

Somebody said it in the chat. Those grasping to a self that's right. When I think about themselves.

I think about myself all the time but I'm not scared of emptiness but it's people who grasp to a self, I mean I guess I grasp to a self to but so far emptiness doesn't scare me. Two year olds, which translation I'm still ready to. I'm not sure.

Infants, the ones who are still spiritually immature. They're specifically afraid from teachings due to their grass, so I wrote this like one in the morning so give me a break. They're grasping to me in mind.

What are some of the fears that might arise for infants who hear about the profound that they'll be destroyed. Yeah, they don't use that phrasing but that's. Yeah, that's pretty much that sums it up a little bit.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, just go away.

[Speaker 1]
Future lives also gone that that's right, Isabel said it. They fear they will disappear yeah they will disappear as for death, no me no future Okay, this is right. Good job.

I wouldn't have remembered. They will think now there is no me and in the future I will have no more births, or my parts are not me and later I won't have any parts anyway. Hey goo.

You misspelled it Nick. Are you sure. It's a dump car.

Um, apparently, back in the day this is how it was spelled and so this is how he spelled it in the book. I know what. There's an argument about it but anyway, all beings, or nine beings or beings beings yeah just beings, but it doesn't always mean that.

Right. Sometimes means all beings. Yeah.

In this case it just meant beings but yeah, right because it's the nine beings, or whatever. Yeah, exactly. A lot of me.

Yeah. Holding to me this one's kind of easy. Yeah, in this case, holding to mine.

Nine years in. Yes, good. Nice.

It's kind of weird to pronounce as an English speaker. Harder harder to remember. Okay, we did it.

Relatively painless way. Okay, still waking up. Let me find my book I know I have one somewhere.

Tim still making his quiz frantically. Come on, Tim. That's the word of the diamond way we're not going to work on that.

[Speaker 2]
It was half that and half that I didn't look at the schedule and half that I was at home and my power charger was at the office. happens. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
All right. Stopped here. Okay, that's usually the right place.

Here we go. Someone has a question for you in the chat Nick, someone can someone translate it I, I know that's a question for Nick. Oh yeah, Nick, I can read that part.

What says please let me ask a question teacher Nick and says Nick. Okay, go ahead. Sharon chow.

What is the book. Oh, what is the book that I'm referring to. Yeah, what's what class are you.

Oh, I guess they missed. I was just talking about that so guilt subject. Oh here I see it's about cancer Jay wrote a commentary to Arya Nagarjuna string of jewels or Ratna Mala.

And it's like a. It's considered one of Arya Nagarjuna six book on reasoning, even though it's a little different than his other books on reasoning, it's more of a long rim as advice written to a king. And in this book he's specifically telling the king, how to create the causes for higher rebirths and definite good, which means enlightenment to your code word for enlightenment.

So that's what we've been talking about. Yes, the Supreme Garden of Wisdom that's the working title, because I guess a Michael told me to create my own title for it. That had nothing to do with the title that was already there so I just did.

But I don't see any. The Supreme Garden of Wisdom. Yeah, so I guess you just wanted to follow along in the book in the Dropbox the venerable Pala has so kindly organized for us.

Thank you so much for archiving and arranging all of our translation materials. If you're here.

[Speaker 3]
Yes, I'm here. I'm sorry, did you ask a question.

[Speaker 1]
No, I said thank you. I just assumed you were but I don't know. Here we go.

Okay, so here we are. This is where we stopped yesterday we were talking about these beings being afraid. The last sentence that we covered that we were talking about the teacher taught emptiness in order to help people.

And in the end, those who are grasping really tightly to me and mine are afraid when they hear about the meaning of emptiness. The way the Victor taught it. So, poor Victor.

He's just a typical story. People get mad at them. They're scared.

Everybody who tries to help people go through this kind of problem. Emily's doctor, you know, she's terrified. She gets mad at the doctor doctor wants to give her a shot shots going to help her.

Theoretically. Okay. An extensive explanation of the meaning.

So, uh, I think that this one wasn't too hard. He's taken us to the second part this is funny when I'm translating guessing Michael does this amazing thing of going ahead. And whenever God subject offers a Nipah or a don't pull or Zumba, do you know what I'm referring to Marina, who's been to these classes for a while.

If I say Tompo Nipah or Zumba. Do you know what I mean. I'm picking on you Marina because you always have your camera on which is great.

That just means I can see you so I call on you.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, good Catherine.

[Speaker 1]
Somebody wrote it in the chat.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, you probably can't see the chat but Catherine in the chat boldly suggested that you're referring to numbers.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, great. All right. Awesome.

Yes, correct. Both of you. Nice work.

Sorry to pick on you Marina and there's no reason that you should know this until you're learning how to translate. Should we read the paragraph Nick. Okay, that's a good idea.

I'll read it, and word, word you correct me. All right. Nipa geisha lesson.

Now, Tom, I didn't Zumba Zumba Zumba Tom. Ching, Tara Rangshri Gakpa Tom. Check in, check it out.

Don't know what them bow. So this is what I translated so far, this was my assignment. So guess you might go goes ahead and goes back in the text and finds where we're at, which is amazing.

And most of the time I've been doing it myself because I've just because I haven't scrolled down and I forget that he does it ahead of time. And then I find it and then I see that he is right. And then and the times where I can't find it then he'd also didn't try.

So anyway, it's frustrating sometimes especially in these longer guts of J books because he does really incredible leaps before he gets to the next part. So here we go. Nipa, the second part.

Okay, that's what usually what that means. Nipa means to the second part. Gay Shay last soon.

The second, the extensive explanation gay Shay. So, gay is like widespread Shay is explanation. Gay Shay is a common phrase together.

Last zoom has three parts of its own.

[Speaker 2]
What are we extensively explaining now, Nick.

[Speaker 1]
Uh huh. The meaning.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, great. Yeah, sure.

[Speaker 1]
The text, I mean, the meaning of the discussion. I believe that it's that me and mine scarce people. Yeah, that infants feel afraid.

Cool. So now done. So anybody know what means we just had it in the quiz.

Only to me and mine. Yeah, ngadangayir dzimpa means holding to be in mind. Dzimpar drupadang means they're established as being lies.

Ching, I believe, is chained. Tar is liberation. So the second part is a denial.

That would be the, let's see, gakpa, a denial, like the gacca is the object that we deny. So gacca is a denial. A denial that being chained or a liberation, Ching, I guess that's why Geshe Michael kindly put this tongue in here to remind us that it's not the chains of liberation, which would be pretty strange.

But you never know what these guys are gonna say. Being chained or a liberation, rangshin ki, that rangshin means has some nature of its own. Should you put a refutation instead of denial for gacca?

I think you could, and it's potentially a better one. I don't know. But Geshe Michael has often encouraged to use denial, but it doesn't, refutation's great, I think.

Often he's in a mood of trying to make it sound as unscholastic as possible. Okay. But I understand what you mean.

There's a slightly different meaning.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And in composition, a refutation does sound kind of correct, more correct, maybe. I like it. I like it.

It might end up in there. Well, I have no say at the end of the day. Okay, and tempa.

A lot of times when you see the word tempa at the end, when we're breaking this into sections, like when we're breaking a section into smaller sections, when you see tempa, it often means, or dempa, it means a demonstration. That's how Geshe Michael likes to translate it. I like it.

A demonstration that all things, chokun, all things, are free, dangdrel, free, dangdrelwa, from the extremes, ta, of being permanent, tak, or cut off, che. A demonstration that all things are free from the extremes of being permanent or cut off. And these are the two extremes, right?

I don't know about using the word cut off, like the English translation, cut off, for che in like a final translation, because it's confusing what that might mean. And literally, che means cut, but we probably can find a better way to say, like non-existent, that somehow references the word cut.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, interesting. I wonder what else he's used.

[Speaker 1]
There was something there to begin with. So you don't want to use cut, I don't think. But maybe we can think of some sort of, like you guys, I'm sure most of us, especially those of us who have middle way books, have come across this translation conundrum.

Yeah, I mean, even though cut off implies something was there, these are results. So it kind of should say something was there, you know? I mean, I'm open to suggestions.

I'm open to all thoughts here. I don't like cut off that much in this, but I mean, literally it does, it's perfect, but I don't know. Literally, but sometimes it doesn't sound quite right in English.

Permanent or, I don't know, I'll let it marinate. I'd just like to hear your thoughts. Mixed nerds.

Mixed up.

[Speaker 3]
Cease to exist.

[Speaker 1]
Cease to exist? Ooh, Venable Codding said discontinued. Ooh, I like that, yeah.

I like it. Okay, well, if that gets there, this moment is going to be immortalized in mixed nuts history in Galt's letter to a king. But it also has that issue of strongly implying that something was there.

So I don't know. But it's not the whole point of the extremes, it's wrong. Yeah, that's also true, yeah.

Yeah, it's not supposed to be wrong. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. All right.

[Speaker 2]
Geshe-la has said, I'm just looking in Illumination, he did go as far as to flesh it out, to say the extreme positions of thinking nothing changes or that nothing exists. So, right, obviously he's not afraid of using big, meaty phrases, whereas sometimes a baby translator like myself wants to find the one glorious equivalent English word to a tight little Tibetan word. But of course, Tibetan is such a terse, pithy language that gets things done in just a few short syllables, whereas for Ben to even communicate this thought, I've already taken up so much of your time in English.

[Speaker 1]
All right, that's enough. Yeah, yeah, no, it's a really good point. And Geshe-la is an amazing example of finding and potentially pushing the line of what we can get away with in English to make it clear and still keep the meaning perfectly.

But he's just so good at it, it's hard to emulate it without messing up.

[Speaker 2]
Here on Ship of the Sea of Emptiness, he says, he goes as far as to say the extremes where nothing can change or else everything grinds to a stop.

[Speaker 1]
Ooh, wow.

[Speaker 2]
It's pretty attractive.

[Speaker 1]
That is pretty good. I love it. All right, yeah.

He's kind of smart. I'm gonna stencil that one on the wall. Okay, so this is something interesting.

Now we got to another section. Oh, wait, did we? This is the first part of three of the two.

Yeah, yeah. But did he put, let's make sense of explanation. The second part divided into three and now we're in the first of those.

[Speaker 3]
Establishing that me and mine that we hold to our lives.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay, we're here. Okay, no, no, we just did that.

We're not done. Yeah, yeah, for some reason, why did he put this here again? Referring to the above one.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, the ding, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, no, there's another occurrence, but we'll see it in a little bit. There's one that confuses me. Okay.

Dangpo Loshi. Ngo dang te pang pe tar pa tok par ten pa tang te ni suk nyen ki pe she pa tang tang ni tok par tar pa gyur ten pao. The first has four parts.

Dangpo Loshi. Okay, dangpo Loshi. The first has four parts.

Nge. So just nge means the actual explanation. Tang means kama.

Te pang pe tar pa tok par ten pa. Demonstration. So once again, we got this ten pa, so a demonstration.

By letting go, that's how I translated pang pa here, apparently. Is it letting go though, Mick? That sounds, it's giving something up, right?

Or eliminating. Yeah, I feel like letting go is not strong enough. It could very well could be not.

Okay. And I certainly take liberties here, especially because I was just trying to go to bed. But I think I, well, let's get through it and see.

Yeah, by letting go, we achieve freedom. Yeah, I agree. It doesn't, it's not really strong enough for what we're talking about here.

It's not, because especially people who are reading Buddhism, they're just like, yeah, man, just let go. People talk to me all the time, like other dads and stuff, if they know what I do. And they're like, yeah, man, the world just needs more Buddhists, man.

Like, we just gotta like, let go. I mean, it's just like a gentle way of dropping that misperception, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of course you gotta let go of that. And whether I leave it as letting go or put something else, I wonder if it's useful here to say letting go of that perception or that misunderstanding, like to throw all that in. That might be true.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, well, I don't know what nge is here, but it seems like daipang, it's the teaching that we achieve freedom by letting go of that, daipangbe.

[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Demonstration about letting go. Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.

I missed some of that.

[Speaker 2]
So it's the particular thing, and I wonder if it's whatever is in nge, right? What we're calling, what do you think, Org?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's talking about nga tang ngayirnzin. It's saying the explanation of that and how a demonstration that that is something to be let go of. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
So specifically the grasping to natural qualities of bondage or liberation, that that very idea that those things truly exist are what we have to get rid of in order to achieve freedom.

[Speaker 3]
I don't know, this may be semantics, but the first one was establishing that me and mine, we hold to our lies. So it's not that grasping so much as understanding me and mine is a false concept.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, great.

[Speaker 1]
That's interesting. It's definitely important to take into consideration here. Okay, I'll marinate on it later.

Just gonna keep marinating.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I guess it comes, when we get to that part, we'll find out.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, to that actual explanation. And an explanation, that's a shepa explanation of thusness, deni, using the metaphor of a mirror, sukyen, mirror, kipesh, kipe, metaphor of, to Tibetans backwards from English. So it's like usually metaphor of a mirror.

Sukyen is reflection though, not mirror. Well, then it's a good thing that we're having this conversation. I mean, it's referring to the whole mirror thing, right?

Yeah, yeah. And literally it's reflection, so regardless. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
And it wouldn't be unlike Gish and Michael to translate it as using the metaphor of a reflection in a mirror, right?

[Speaker 1]
Well, yeah, he usually translates it as a reflection in a mirror, but that sounded so long to me. Metaphor of a reflection sounded weird to me, but it also could be, because I don't know, a reflection almost doesn't sound like a metaphor, but a reflection in a mirror. Go on.

No, that's it. Is deni thusness here, or it's just saying just that? Yeah, I don't know.

I went with thusness, but I know what you mean, an explanation of that. The next one is tongyi.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
I know, although that's not unlike him to juxtapose deni and tongyi. Okay. Yeah, I don't know.

[Speaker 2]
I don't know why he would- Well, the next one is not technically tongyi, right? But it is tongyi dokpa, and so the next one is the explanation of what are the causes, right? Like how do we cause the- Realization.

I don't know.

[Speaker 1]
Well, unfortunately, it's tongyi dokpa tarpa, so it's the- It's tongyi dokpa, and the tarpa's different. I mean, I believe that he's saying a demonstration that the cause of liberation is- Realization of emptiness.

[Speaker 2]
Sounds good to me.

[Speaker 1]
I don't think it's like the liberation of the realization of emptiness are based on, no. But I- I think you got that. I do have that, the liberation from the realization of emptiness.

Yeah. I'm quite free of that, exactly. I am still liberated from realizing emptiness until I'm not anymore.

Yeah, I'm going to go with deni is thusness. We can double check with the boss. Cool.

Cool. Asking the tough questions today. I did not do the verses because I was tired, and he's lately been telling me not to.

[Speaker 2]
Second reason's really tight.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Oh, wait, what time is it? Oh, it's 6.30. Okay. Gangbunee, here's the first. Should you put it like what the first is? Sometimes I do it.

Yeah, yeah, he's been kind of telling me to do that more often. I often don't when it's immediately, you know, succeeding the explanation of what the first is. It's pretty immediate, you know, like we've inserted this root text here, but yeah, here's the, I'll put it since there's some words in between.

I already forget. If you forget, then everyone forgets because you have a photographic memory. Oh yeah, it's new, yeah, I remember.

Well, there is something that we can conventionally call mine. Oh, me mine, I said. Well, there is a some, what the hell?

Excuse me. Heck, heck. Should we read the Tibetan?

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Seems healthy.

[Speaker 1]
Seems like a good way to stall while I fix the English grammar. Hey, you should have Hagrid read it.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Yeah, right, come on, look, he's all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.

[Speaker 1]
Is he? Yeah. Good for you, Rob.

All right, Hagrid.

[Speaker 2]
It's the coffee, yeah, me too.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you check and Ben is checking you.

[Speaker 2]
All right. I'm after you, buddy.

[Speaker 1]
Tongbani. Oh no, no, sorry, Dangponi. Tangbani, Dunna, Dang.

No, that's not, Nga.

[Speaker 2]
Nga, yeah, Nga. Back of your throat.

[Speaker 1]
Nga, Iwa.

[Speaker 2]
Iwa is great.

[Speaker 1]
Mayukyang, Dampe, Dundu, Daki, Yudaki, Yuchepa, Zinba, Diney Lokching. Diney Lokching, uh-huh. Ching, Drul, Drulpa.

Drulpa. Yeah, Drulpa, yeah, Drulpa, yeah. Dang, Zunpa, Yinday.

Nice. Cool. Nice reading, Rob.

Rob's been hearing it for so long. He reads it for the first time and his pronunciation's perfect. I gotta learn Tibetan.

[Speaker 2]
I think realization the other day. I know a guy who's teaching a class on that.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, the timing. Whatever, wake up. You gotta go to, yeah, go do homework.

I was, I was in the same state, too. Oh, that's the problem. All right, so here's the first, the actual explanation.

While there are things that we can conventionally call me and mine, so Tanye is conventionally, and Chepa, I believe, is call here. I might've fudged things a little bit. While there are things that we can conventionally call me and mine, from the perspective of ultimate reality, what we call me and what we call mine, what we hold to, and this is a Geshe Michaelian em-dash situation, is wrong.

It is mistaken and it is a lie. Because he gives a whole bunch of things here. He's like, first of all, the dzinpa comes after Chepa.

That's why I kind of used it as a way to modify what we call me and what we call mine. What's the word for lie? Dzun, right here.

Dzun, yeah, it's fake. Polly was just saying a lie. She just happened to say false.

Like why would you, how come you wouldn't use false rather than lie, I guess? I like false better, actually. Yeah, yeah, because a lie, the English sounds kind of clunky here.

And again, I like false better. I mean, it's false. And we can potentially, we can keep playing with it and see if there's anything else we like even better.

But yeah. What was the semantics?

[Speaker 2]
It is focusing on the fact that it's incorrect.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, totally.

[Speaker 2]
I love that.

[Speaker 1]
Lies don't always feel completely, even though a lie is sort of like, you know. Might have a shade of truth or something. Yeah, totally like, nah, I lied a little, you know.

I mean, in my life, if I lie, I get in big trouble, so.

[Speaker 2]
I guess in this case, right, you would look at Tulpa next to dzinpa and decide whether or not these two words have different shades of meaning, because theoretically, either one could be translated as false or lie. So you would have to decide, do these two words have a different flavor? Is the author saying two different things by saying tulpa and dzinpa?

Is there clarification? The tradition in our school typically is that an author doesn't just repeat themselves for no reason. So you wanna find a way to translate these two words in a way that gives two layers of meaning and doesn't just repeat itself twice.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, we are trying to feel the intent of Gyaltsabje here.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, he's kind of smart too.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
So what do you think? How, I mean, what do you think, what do you feel is the difference between tulpa and dzinpa? What are the differences in flavor between those words for you?

[Speaker 1]
Well, tulpa for me is usually mistaken and it's usually referring to, I mean, at least in Gyaltsabje in the recent history that I've been working with him directly, he's usually using the word tulpa to refer to a mistaken state of mind.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, like a flaw or like the, right, the- I kind of like the word flawed here.

[Speaker 1]
It is flawed and it is false.

[Speaker 2]
Like when you have a hair on your arm or something and you think the porcelain is cracked or seeing a mountain look yellow, we usually use tulpa for it. But dzinpa often means a thing that is fake, like, you know, a, say again, a- A deception. Uh-huh.

Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I like deception. And don't forget he's glossing loke. So- Yeah, okay, cool.

He's using both of those words to gloss loke. And if he's, and I think the point you might be making, Ben, is when he's glossing loke, he's trying to catch two different reasons why Arya Nagarjuna used loke. Tsun can just mean wrong too.

[Speaker 3]
It doesn't have to apply wrong.

[Speaker 1]
But I used wrong for loke. Yeah, I'm not saying, no, I agree, but they could be synonyms too because that's, glossing is often the same exact meaning. I could say it is wrong.

It is wrong and it is wrong.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, right. Yeah, so I guess what I want to believe that when he's talking here about the perception or the holding to a self that doesn't exist, on one hand, there's something wrong with your mind that's forcing you to see it that way. And by the way, the thing itself is also baloney.

[Speaker 1]
It might be fun to say something like, what we call me and mine, what we hold to is wrong. We are mistaken, it is wrong and we are mistaken too or something like that. That's interesting.

Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
We're deceived, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, we are deceived. That's a good one. I like that.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, because then you're throwing in a little, conventional reality language.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's kind of cool. It's a used ultimate reality. I mean, usually we have a different word in middle way stuff for deceived, but I mean, it works here.

I like the way it flows. What's the word, lua? Yeah, usually we've been translating lua for deceive.

Oh, I don't know if it's a verb. Is it a verb?

[Speaker 3]
Lua?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Well, I think lu.

[Speaker 3]
No, isn't that zun? What you're translating right there?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, no, zunpa? Probably not.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, I don't think we can say.

[Speaker 1]
Zunpa yin. Well, zunpa yin. We are deceived, or we are, it is a lie is what it's really saying.

It is just a beginning. Yeah, you can use that as a verb. Can use my yin as a verb, though.

But that's the is, which you used at the beginning of the sentence. Oh, but you've been hypertexting for a long time. You know we distribute like that sometimes.

[Speaker 3]
But I don't know. I mean, word would know. Is zunpa a verb?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, a lie, yes. Zun can be. Zun is what it becomes a noun when you put the pa on it, right?

Both. Yeah, it's a verbalizer and a nounizer. That's a good point.

Yeah, and we just had this discussion with Geshe Michael too. Yeah, it can be, you can put, Tibetan's funny. One of the, I think it's a really satisfying language to translate in some ways because, you know, the rules are so flexible.

It's kind of like a pile of words that you have to make into something and when you're doing to English. Okay, well, I'll leave it like this for now to remind myself that we want to find a special way to translate zun. Next section.

Let's try to do some together. Yay. Yeah, let's see.

Roxanna, do you want to read?

[Speaker 3]
Okay. Great.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. Nice reading. And I haven't looked at this yet at all.

So here we go. So, so far what I'm seeing is, if things were established, if me and mine were established Dhrup, Dhrupna is if they were established, Rangchangi as having some nature of their own.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And Ganga cheer here I think is just like, for, for if that were for like that, or you may wonder this type of thing. Yeah. If it, if it was like that, right.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And if these things were established as having some nature of their own, then Hakben Yamshak, which is the meditation that arias go into when they have the direct perception of emptiness. Good. Young dog.

But that's what we would see. That's what arias in the direct perception of emptiness would see. They have to do see.

They would must they must see that. That would be correct. Young dog, but her ultimate Gita, one soon to young shoe shape, they would understand it thoroughly understand it directly.

It really see that that's that, that it's correct that they would have to see in their meditation and their aria meditation. But the fact is they don't. That's not what they see, right?

They don't. The fact is that they do not see a me or mine. Me and mine don't arise is what it says to their perception.

Seek paying more. Yes. Seek paying or like when they're to their perception in that direct, you know, to the, to the arias perception, me and mine do not make an appearance.

Right. That's not what is they see directly. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Why the cheer?

[Speaker 1]
I, you know, interestingly, I think that because it starts with the gang each year.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, could be. And for what reason is that?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, because yeah, I think it's like that. Because it's not, they don't see those two things me and mine directly in their, in their meditation. It's not phrased.

It's not phrased exactly how we would phrase it in English.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. So extra cheers.

[Speaker 2]
So why should that be true? Because if me and mine have a nature of their own, then that's what would appear to an aria in the direct perception of emptiness. Yeah, but it ain't, but it ain't.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. Perfect.

Okay. Yeah. Danny.

Let's see who wants to read. Sorry. Vimala, do you want to read it right here?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Nice. Did you go to words classes this morning? That was good.

Danny, as soon as far as establishing emptiness, or thusness, I think like now we're going to find out if that's what that Danny was, I guess. Yeah. Um, so holding to me, arising, coming about.

Sorry. Oh, the skandhas, the parts of the person. Mm-hmm.

That's what I was going to say. So, okay. So as most of you probably know, at this point, uh, I laid it.

Oh yeah. Thank you. Now we're entering into debate, speak dialectics.

So we like in English, I think is one of the most brilliant things we translate this as consider. Uh, consider holding to a self. Uh, well, consider the heaters.

Sorry. How did you say it word? Consider the heaps that come from holding to a self.

Yeah. Yeah. Great.

Perfect. By the way, in case you might go translating kitchen as consider is one of the best things ever. We're when I was in the monastery, this one monk was like, it's impossible to debate in English.

Like you don't have these words. Like it's just not possible. He was like, like church.

And how would you say that? And I was like, consider. And then he was like, Oh yeah, I guess you can debate.

I guess it is possible. That was, um, yeah, uh, He already knew, uh, uh, zembaente. Okay.

This is the second part of the debate. Uh, anybody what's zembaente mean? We don't know.

We just debated.

[Speaker 2]
Well, yeah, I mean, but that's okay. I mean, something like it, it's fake or they're fake, uh, you know, whatever is the subject here.

[Speaker 1]
I think here you have to say they are a deception because, right, they're deceiving, right? Yeah, well, let's see what he gives for the reason, but yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, great idea. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Because a lie is not established, because something fake is what's not established as being ultimate. Because then, I wonder what Dune is doing here. Oh, I think that it's saying, because the self that we hold to, the very self that we hold to.

[Speaker 2]
I don't think it's holding on to the heaps. I think that the subject here, my hunch, is something about holding on to a self arising from the heaps. The idea that somehow a self arises from those heaps is fake, because there is no true or ultimate self that we're holding to, which is established as arising from those heaps, or the seeming self that does is fake.

[Speaker 1]
The holding to a self that arises based upon the heaps, something like that.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that nards in bed, right?

[Speaker 1]
That self-holding.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, well, Dune, right? Dundoo?

[Speaker 1]
Dundoo is kind of like, or, isn't it? It was like, from the perspective of?

[Speaker 2]
It can mean, like, strictly speaking, or like, accurately speaking, to be clear, that holding to a self, Dundoo, to be clear about that day, right? Dundampar, it's ultimately nature. Is madhub?

[Speaker 1]
It's fake. It's not established as being ultimate. Yeah, because it ain't ultimate.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that the fake is, or the ain't ultimate is modifying the fake. It's a lie in that it's not established as being ultimate.

It's fake in that it's not established as being ultimate. I don't think so. I think it's a synonym.

I just saying, I think it's my friend. Same, same.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I think that's what Nick's saying, right? Deni case, right? To be one is the other.

It's a positive construction.

[Speaker 1]
It is. Yeah, well, in this case, it's not a positive construction. Yeah, it's agi kui, so it's more the way that I was saying it in this case, I think.

[Speaker 2]
And you can use an agi kui for, right? We used to call it Utpala case, right? Utpala.

[Speaker 1]
No, that was the, it's a ladun. That's ladun. It is ladun.

[Speaker 2]
Ah, you're right, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
We just did it in class today. But, and I think the tundu is a, tundampar is an appositive of tundu. That's what the te is.

That's an interesting point. Narnzen deni tundu te. Tundampar madhub.

Maybe. Yeah, so the meaning attributed to narnzen is that it is ultimately a lie. Ultimately, it cannot be established.

Mm-hmm, interesting. Tundu te, because the root text says tundu te. Yeah, but tundampar madhuba is not established as ultimate.

Right, and the root text is saying tundu te, meaning it's fake. Tundu te, that's a good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's all root text. Very good. It's 6.55. Well, I mean, I'm happy to keep going. I just don't, I didn't want to go on too long. We have to torture Tim now, too. I have the power, but I, yeah, I'm appreciating all of this.

This is really, really great. That was really fun to work together. It was really great.

We still need you, Geshe Michael, very much. Once in a while.

[Speaker 2]
Well, if he's watching, he's just like, oh my goodness.

[Speaker 1]
If he's watching, he's like, nah. He wouldn't have let us get away with that much. Good job, Nick.

Thank you. Oh, thank you. Good job, you guys.

That was fun. All right, so take a 10-minute break, nine-minute break, and I'll see you all back here in a few. Thank you.