Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 67

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I'm excited. Utpala, are you standing by? Wearing and ready to go?

Sitting by, yes. Wonderful. I give you the floor.

Thank you. It should you choose to accept. Okay.

Welcome to an interlude on emptiness. And as you recall, we finally cracked into the second part of this book, which we've all been waiting for very patiently for years now. As we spent a lot of time looking at how it is that Master Asanga, Arya Asanga and Master Vasubandhu, how they construct their worldview of what is literal and what is figurative that the Buddha taught.

And we had a basic presentation that of the three turnings of the wheel, which are divided by how they speak about emptiness, they say the third turning is literal and the other two not. They're figurative. And we got a lot more detail about what the Mind Only School followers think about how things are, about how we experience our world, which I'm not going to mention.

We're just going to start now talking about, I don't have a quiz for you. Um, we will have that quiz next time, but you may find a question on that quiz about like, okay, like what's the bottom line about what Mind Only School says about what's figurative and what's literal. So let me find this text.

Sorry. I don't know why I'm just always such a sort of flummoxed by how to share. It's working.

It's working. Yeah. Okay.

So maybe we can do a little, I don't know. Should we start after where we left off? Should we back up a little bit and talk about a little bit about what we talked about last time?

I would vote for context. It's your show, but that would help my poor little brain. Oh, this is a team endeavor as opposed to a team endeavor.

It's a team endeavor. Right. But excuse my notes and excuse me making you dizzy by scrolling so quickly.

No problem. So just basically we're at the second part and which is describing how Arya Nagarjuna, spiritual father and son wrote a presentation on how to distinguish between literal and figurative following the Sutra, a teaching given by Akshaya Mati. Never ending wisdom and others.

And as Geshe Michael noted here, the son is Aryadeva and there will be a footnote to that effect. Great. And he does.

Oh no, there's another sort of introductory. He says a clarification of the verses, and that's by Master Chandrakirti, a commentary to the lamp of wisdom by Bhava Viveka and light on the middle way by Master Kamalashila all rely on as a source that Sutra that was just mentioned. And they all present how to distinguish between what is figurative and what is literal based on the teaching in that Sutra.

Then we get a quote from that Sutra itself. You may ask, what are the Sutras of literal meaning? What are the Sutras of figurative meaning?

Whatever Sutras teach the establishment of the deceptive are called figurative meaning. Whatever Sutras teach the establishment of the ultimate are called literal meaning. I think so far, Arya Asanga wouldn't have a problem, right?

I mean, just with, okay, I get that division. That's fine. It's just they define what is ultimate differently, right?

I don't know. Is that, did we get a definition of literal and figurative from Arya Asanga? Well, you may recall way back in the day, the way to determine is whether you could, whether you could suss out, whether you could find the meaning of a Sutra within the Sutra itself.

Then it, then it was literal. If you had to go to some other place to find the meaning, then no, it's not. Oh, I guess that means that this definition would be different from that one.

Yeah. I shouldn't have posited that idea. We need more.

It's an exciting question for me. Yeah. Yeah.

I definitely want to answer that in detail sometime in the future. And then speaking of the key of concentration, thank you, Stanley. We have a quote from that Sutra, which says emptiness as taught by the ones gone to bliss, no, as among the Sutras of literal meaning, whatever is taught by some living being or person or spiritual person, no, all of them as presentations of figurative meaning.

I got to clean the English up, but that's like a first step. Cool. Okay.

Then I haven't finished translating this, but now, now he starts getting into this and he said, when presenting how to determine what is figurative and what is literal in accord with these explanations, then whatever Sutras directly teach as their primary subject, as it probably we don't need better directly teaches their primary subject. Only various kinds of deceptive things are called Sutras of figurative meaning. And this is because we must search elsewhere for the ultimate state of things.

And I didn't finish the sentence. We have to extract the meaning out of what is presented figuratively. And then those that directly teaches their main subject, the emptiness of the mere elimination of the elaborations, the lack of arising and the like are Sutras of literal meaning.

And this is because of the reverse of the previous reason, because we don't have to search for meaning. It's right there. Could this be the emptiness, which is merely the elimination of elaboration or the emptiness?

Well, it's right here. Yeah. Chöpa, elaboration, Namparchepa, elimination of the chöpa, of the elaboration, Sam, just that.

Yeah, elimination of elaborations, mere elimination. And then I put the gis of. Yeah.

It could be in, right? I want to say that it could be, which is, but I don't know if I'm being too naughty with my gis, but is the emptiness of elimination of elaboration is not emptiness, is not ultimate truth. So I want to find a way to phrase that.

I think that's the idea, right? That somehow that phrase should amount to ultimate truth. Can we say that ultimate truth is elimination of elaboration?

Yeah, it looks like a which is to me, it could be like, which is.

[Speaker 3]
Emptiness, which is my temptation, which is nothing but or nothing more than the elimination of all elaboration, something like that.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah. That's my feeling about it. And then, oh, the lack of arising, kyewa-mepa, et cetera, tsok.

Oh, musu, oh, oh, I see, and kyewa-mepa, I see. Ah, the lack of arising and the like, great, are sutras of literal meaning, like, yeah. And that's because, yeah, they're the dokpa, the opposite of the previous.

Yeah, yeah, cool. Okay. Okay, so that's what we covered last time.

Right. This is really long. Um, Venerable Chinsum, are you around?

Would you like to read? She may not be around. Oh, you're here.

[Speaker 2]
Hey, okay, can you make the screen any larger? Oh, yeah, I can do that. Is that big enough or more?

Oh, there you go. There you go. Yeah, it's good for me.

I did see your request in the chat from someone. Oh, I see. We'll try and find the chat.

[Speaker 1]
That's good. We can manage the chat for you. Sorry.

Is it good?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so we have our introductory line here. So there are two ways that we must interpret other meanings of these sutras.

[Speaker 3]
Mm hmm.

[Speaker 1]
Neluk, Geshe Michael told us last time meant the ultimate state of things. Yeah, yeah. So Neluk Sempana, when thinking about the ultimate state of things.

Uh, let's see. I had to like, chop this up a bit. Let's see.

Fair enough. Yeah. Sorry, I've got this.

This camera that comes down into my screen, so I can't see. Okay, I got to do this. Sorry.

Okay. Okay, when thinking about the ultimate state of things. Mm hmm.

Um, with sutras that directly teach. And I don't know, sir, if someone can help me with, sir, I could not find it. Hmm.

So as a measure, it's like, of the amounts. Yeah. It doesn't really, that doesn't really fit.

So it can also be actual or like real. Okay, that helps a lot. Well, actually, teach.

Anyway, I got to think about that. Yeah, the way things actually are something or, or just that or exactly. I think it goes mostly.

Mm hmm. Yeah, could it be, it could, sir, like, to the extent that they directly teach the, the way that things are. Where do you get to the extent that?

Oh, it's by the measure. Yeah, it's, it's related to Tsemo. But they teach in such a panic.

Yeah, maybe, right. In so much as right to the measure, to the extent that they teach that they must have been directly teach. Okay, cool.

And here I jumped to the teach what is not suitable Mm hmm. To be taken as I said, the essential nature of things. Oh, yeah.

Such as sutra teachings, that when wealth comes from giving, we must search for the ultimate from the figurative. I gotta get this. Whatever.

Right? Well, no, is this high earlier higher? I don't know.

I don't know what the gung do is. Anyone have ideas? I, I, I think it's like, the middle water, right, is a delay is rather than what we talked about earlier.

So yeah, so in so much something is like, a literal in so much as it directly teaches the way that things are. And then I guess, right? That which I don't know, like is inappropriate to be rather than that, which is Yeah, I don't know, not appropriately called that or doesn't.

I don't know. What is this? Like, that, essentially, that would work.

[Speaker 3]
The mural, the mural would be modifying what came before it, not what came after it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, but mutual water daily. That that's appropriate, rather than what was discussed earlier, is, is interpretable or figurative, is a figurative form of navel. Because it's saying, yeah, tiny navel, as opposed to drawing a navel, tiny navel, like actual suchness, as opposed to drawing a navel.

Some, some figurative form of the essential teaching, something like that. For the ultimate, I think not the other way around. But it could be.

Yes. Yeah. Daily, right, rather than what would be mirrored water inappropriate to take.

Soon, drew as being, they look, they look soon as being the way of things. And. And then we get.

Yeah, as we saw above, right, as, as was described above. Yes, so. Okay, say that again.

I'm not sure I agree, but. So, fair enough. Yeah.

Um, tongue, tongue, okay, tongue, yeah, yeah, would then be. Um, uh, uh, um, taking what, taking as soon. Uh, taking as new look.

Uh, that which would be mirrored water to take as new look. Um.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And so. Which is daily, which is rather than. Um, what we saw above the cone to.

That's why the suit is in there. In so much as that teaching is. And then everything.

Right. Yeah. In so much as that sutra directly teaches the way of things.

We can consider it figurative, but. What is not. Sorry, in so much as it teaches the way of things directly, we can consider it literal.

And then the figurative. Is where we take. Uh, rather than that, what would be inappropriate to take as figurative?

Sorry, what would be inappropriate to take as the, the way of things as, as. As we saw above.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
What's the search before?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah. We probably have that real nice. Um, we must search for the ultimate state.

Uh, that in that case, we might in this case. Uh, in the John may, uh, from that, then we would have to search. To see what is new look since it wasn't directly presented.

And what was presented would be inappropriate to take his name. So we, we have to, we have to look for it. That's good.

Like the example. Um, that you translated here. Uh, that, um, giving leads to, uh, just, uh, uh, abundance or.

Yeah. When did you put it? Oh, well, yes.

Uh, well, great. Yeah. Great.

Well, absolutely. Yeah. Cool.

What next? Yeah. Then what next?

Uh, just like, yeah. Um, so what are they directly teaching? We have no, we have no modifier of what they're directly teaching.

It doesn't matter. Where, which, um, and so much as they're teaching such. Mm hmm.

Yes. Yeah. And so much as it's directly teaching suchness, I think.

Um, um, yeah, it could be also be mainly. Um, right. Could, could also be.

Could be. Um, okay. This is getting all there.

There's too many clauses in here. And so I have to organize them because we've got the clause about such as the sutra teachings that wealth come from giving, we've got a clause about rather than what we said above, we've got a clause about searching for the ultimate state from the figurative.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So, um, I have to call do be extract something you have to extract from, from that. Okay. The ultimate state of sutras directly teaching.

And in so much as sutras are directly teachings. Um, I think so is already doing that work. Um, in this case, we're seeking, uh, rather than extracting.

Um, and it's not clear that we can even find the ultimate meaning to extract in a figurative teaching. I think. Okay.

Good. I'm not sure. Of course.

Um, uh, I, I think it's possible, uh, Utpala that, uh, Neluk Sembana could be when something like when considering, um, oh, you said when consider, uh, when thinking about the ultimate state of thing, see, I wonder if this is a modifier, which, um, it is part of the definition of what is literal. Um, so, uh, those sutras we're in or something, uh, we are considering the ultimate state of things or those sutras in which, yeah, you could say thinking, but I, I, I wonder if, uh, well, there's that little that comes before those sutras that directly teach. And cruelly, it could be a lot doing particle.

And in the context of considering Neluk, uh, not isn't always if, or when, you know, it could be, um, but, or, or when they are considering though. Ultimate nature of things. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, when, right. When thinking about, but it's when those sutras are doing it, you see, um, when, not like, those sutras, I don't know, it's possible considering it.

Yeah. There, that may be a way of phrasing it when they are considering that. I don't know.

I don't know who's thinking here. Um, well then yes, that's what I'm wondering. It would have to be, I would have, I might be, if it's true, we're talking about an inanimate object doing Sempa, then I might want to say like examine, because that can be taken as something that is presented in print or in words.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Whereas thinking, of course, that's not going to happen by a sutra. Totally. Yeah, totally.

I mean, and that's why, you know, maybe I would say when, when, when it's considered or something examining spray, I wouldn't use thinking in that context either. Uh, so, you know, massaging the pros, I don't know. I trust your capacity there as well as anyone I know in the universe.

Um, but in terms of meaning, I think we're getting there that, uh, in so much as a sutra directly teaches the way of things. Um, yeah, we consider it literal. Um, but if on the other hand, right.

Other than that, if, um, if it concerns, holds, teaches, uh, that which would be inappropriate to hold to Sumba as Neluk, um, then, uh, contrary to what we described above, meaning contrary to directly teaching the way of things, uh, as we said above, then yeah, we consider it um, and then, and then you gotta look for the Neluk, as you said, um, like, like giving, leading to wealth. And then what are you doing here with, uh, taboo or such as sutra teachings. Yeah.

Yeah. Great. Oh yeah.

And what did you say? Such sutra teachings. Is it in your English?

Oh yeah. Right here. Oh yeah.

Such as sutras teaching. Oh great. Yeah.

Of course. That's the verb. Yeah.

Teaching that things come from. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Great. And then, um, when we're thinking about the deceptive side of things, or if we change it to even sutras that directly teach in so much as even in so much as sutras that directly teach uh, in so, sorry, it's very hard for me. This is so, I have a large monitor.

So these letters are very large, which makes it, um, more challenging to parse. Well, back to your think of, um, I guess, um, one of these you can think of as Neluk and one of these you can think of as Kunzot. So that, that's cool.

That seems potentially straightforward. Right. I'm just trying to rework it the way you reworked that first one.

In so much as, oh, okay. In so much as sutras directly teach suchness in examining the ultimate state of things. So this would be in so, no, there is no in so much as.

Even, uh, even sutras that, uh, because there's no kongdom, right. Is that what you said was in so much as no, that's so, it's so much. No, so it is there.

You got it. Those sutras teach directly, um, the ultimate side of things. I don't know.

I'm getting parallel. Do you have a sense of, uh, Geshe Michael's note here about the Na that this Semba Na. It seems to be right.

That's how I originally wrote. It was to be in the same way, but you guys don't like that. So I'm coming around the way we're rewriting it.

I can't make it parallel because the rest of the sentence in Tibetan doesn't have. You know, we don't have the same follow-up. I mean, basically what it's saying is that even when, even in this sutras that have as their main topic, deceptive reality, you can't take it at face value.

When they say things like kill your mother and your father, those have to be figurative. Even what those teach directly to go find the other meaning, because it's not suitable for a Buddha, a person who is an awakened being who loves all beings on all planets would tell someone to kill their mother and their father. Yeah.

Right. So in the context of what we consider to be Kunzho of what we consider, even in the context of what we consider to be Kunzho, Dode and those sutras, in so much as they teach directly what is graphs there would be, yeah, is still inappropriate to hold to in that same way, like that as a direct teaching. Yeah.

That's why I wonder if it still means something else. If it doesn't mean actual, I mean, more along the actual way. Because we don't have, we don't have an object in this sentence to push against.

Like, what are we pushing against? Like, how do we know when the Buddha is being ridiculous or not? This, this, or being figurative, I shouldn't say ridiculous.

When the, sorry, I'm speaking very quickly. We need something that helps shine a light on what we're talking about here. Even in the case of actual teachings?

Or held as they're actually taught? I think so. I mean, tse could also be like accurate.

It is a variant of the word tse as in tsemo. But I think you're there. I think you have the meaning.

I think you're left to massage grammar. But I think you seem to have demonstrated what this paragraph means, if piecing the words together is going to be an ongoing pain in your life. I mean, delight in your life.

Delight. Delightful pain in your life. Delightful string of little clauses.

Yes, right. Like a necklace upon the brain. A necklace upon the brain, or the heart.

Better yet. This one appears to be easier. Oh, good.

At least it's shorter. Oscar, would you like to read, please?

[Speaker 3]
Yes, thank you. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Lovely. Thank you. Dana, I said, and that's why.

Uma Nangwa. This is one of the texts referenced right above. Light on the Middle Way.

Um, Shana, if you ask, maybe Dongkyung Kanga Cho. Just what is of literal meaning? It is, I did any, it's Kang here.

Any explanation based on an accurate perception and, oh, sorry. Accurate perception and related to ultimate truth. Oh, yeah.

And that's because it's not possible. Uh, I had to, I had to sort of like fudge this because I, I think this is what it's saying and it's difficult, but anyway, it's not possible to interpret it in any other way than that. Interpret it in any other way.

Oops. Any other way than that. Yeah, sure.

Great. I think that's great. Yeah.

Um, by the way, uh, Sema, you know, wondering if this is being employed as echoing that, uh, that we had above. We'll have to ask Master Kamala Sheila next time we see him. Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. In case you might go also.

I would kind of like that if it were. It would be convenient, right? It would be convenient.

Cool. Okay, great. Um, super.

Rebecca, are you around or are you sleeping? It's probably very late or very early. Could be both.

It could be both. She could be present and sleeping. She could be present and sleeping.

I should not make assumptions. Venerable Cutting, would you like to read, please? Oh, thank you, Venerable Upala.

Lujub ki jesu drangye. Drangwe. Drangwe buma tak.

Buma. Buma datlami tunpa me do. Lovely.

Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. Okay.

Um, I think that this actually is usually up by the quotation we just had. It is part of this introductory. You know, this, this introductory bit to the quotations.

So I did not translate it separately. Sure. I'm just starting here.

Okay. Um, so we have, uh, explanations like this on, you know, I said ways to determine what is figurative and what is literal. That's a lot more words.

That's helpful. That's excellent. Okay.

Um, they are mi tunpa me do. They are without conflict. Among those of the middle way who follow, follow after, um, are unigarchs.

Yeah. Which is theoretically all of them. Okay.

Theoretically. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, we're going to have to go on into brand new territory very soon. That's okay. The worst that can happen is we won't understand.

Yeah. Great. Berta, would you like to read, please?

I would love to. Thank you. I was still in the Spanish.

Okay. Gipa from Gipa, right? Okay.

Very good. Thank you. Oh, thank you.

Okay. Here's the second section. And what this second section is up to, where is my verb?

Oh, I, I took it from what we wrote before. So maybe I have to change it anyway. Anyway, we have here the, uh, Pakpaludrupkeesong.

We have the books of our unigarjana. And we have the, uh, the rimpa of the gongpadrelwa of those books. We have the progression of commentaries on his true intent that came from those books.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

My Jungwang came from. Yeah. So Baba Viveka or, or Buddhapalita and Baba Viveka and Chandrakirti and all these characters who explained, uh, progressively different ways, hopefully deeper ways.

Um, right. Did he write auto commentaries or no? Yeah.

Sometimes, uh, I've never studied that. I don't know if, if there's an auto commentary on wisdom, I'd be interested to know. And I'm, I'm just very curious about this.

This sentence just seems, uh, repetitive to me. So again, we've got the, and I'm thinking Tangponyi, because Geshe Michael added it here at the end, that it refers to this bit. Oh, oh, right.

Okay. Um, because we just, okay. We talked about the first sentence now.

Um, so that's why I said, we begin with explaining. Right. How the Arya's books were written.

Cool. Looks right. And I don't know, I really don't like passive voice.

Um, and I make this not passive. You can. Now he wrote those books.

Right. Well, no, because it's, I know why I didn't, I did it the way I did is because of this right here. Oh, because if it were just the way he wrote, wrote books, they wouldn't have this Agikugi, because this is tying this together as a phrase.

Right. Yeah. The, the works of the Arya, something, how, how the works of the Arya were written.

Right. So I have to leave it passive. Maybe for now.

And then I made up this, this is, oh, I'm sorry. What? No, I'm just saying, unless you get clarity later.

Uh, in that, as we read that section. Believe me, I'm praying for that. Um, then for, for Tang, I'm taking this to be, and then just because, you know, I got a whole string of things here going on.

Um, then we've got, uh, I just copied the, the way, but anyway, individual progressions of commentaries on his true intent that came out of that. Great. That's as plausible as anything I can imagine.

That's, that's exciting. Okay, here we go. Great.

I'm, I'm thrilled. Into new land. Wait, Shippa, did I, uh, maybe I have a boo-boo in my text.

What? Sorry, go ahead. Nothing.

I, I found it. I think I had an error. What are these?

Oh, these are, um, yeah. He gets you, Michael copied from above. Great.

What we said way back a long time ago. There it is. Section two.

There it is. Yeah. Great.

Yeah. Wonderful. Okay, cool.

I, and I don't know why it's stated to my mind twice like this. Oh, yeah, I guess it seems obvious, but, um, but it's quite clear this, the, the thing that this is about, which is, uh, the Arias books and the books that followed the Arias books on the meaning of the Arias books, uh, it seems like he's just being very clear and neatly dividing between those two. Okey-doke.

Yeah. All right. We'll, we'll devote some time to one and then the other.

Likely. Bernadette says the first time is saying what the second section is. And then the second is saying, now we are going to explain it.

Oh yeah. Maybe. Yeah.

Right. Well, let's see if they are in two distinct parts. Well, he said Tangonyi, so it seems like, um, those are the two parts.

Uh, so this should be the section on how the Arias works were made. And then we'll see if we get a Nipah where we go on to the, the works explaining the Arias works. Right.

Um, so now we've got here, uh, we've got a, we've got a prediction about. Yeah. Predicted by the Gyalwa.

By the king. Oh, probably Victor, probably the Buddha. Okay.

As opposed to Gyalwa as opposed to Gyalbo. If it's in the tantras, then it's definitely a Buddha. Yeah.

So the, this, this Pakpa, this Aria, um, is going to, is going to do something. Uh, just like the Gyalwa predicted. Yeah.

So, uh, in the teachings of the Tantra on the, um, the essence, the clear essence. To clarify, to make clear. Yeah.

The works good that make clear the heart of the teachings of Sutra and Tantra. Yeah. The perfection of wisdom, the two of.

And yeah. And both, uh, the, and the Tantras and the secret fancy pants teachings. Probably did it.

Oh, he wrote many things. Yeah. Apparently he did that a lot.

He predicted the heck out of it. Um, the Buddha predicted, predicted him a lot in many different. Is that what you're saying?

It means. Yeah. I think, I think many times.

Yeah. Um, yeah, I think so. Uh, whoa, Georgia Yapa.

So we got trouble there. Hundreds, et cetera. Um, oh, wait a minute.

Is that Vishnu? I'm it could be unfortunately, but I don't understand what Vishnu is doing here, but Georgia Yapa can be an epithet for Vishnu. I'm afraid.

And we're at time, which means we have a lovely, quite a cliffhanger. Somehow even Vishnu knew, uh, Arya Nagarjuna was coming or did he. And others like hundreds.

Cool. Okay, guys.

[Speaker 3]
Thanks.

[Speaker 1]
Very much. Thank you. Your book is hard and beautiful.

I'm really excited to see what happens. Um, yeah, I find this, uh, progression of teachers over time, explaining the works in Nagarjuna to be a really, um, attractive place to, to think was some, something I've thought a lot about. I look forward to the journey.

Thank you for taking it on. For us, rejoicing in, in having the seeds to be, to have different teachings on what Arya Nagarjuna wrote. How fortunate are we?

Amazing. Not to mention how amazing it is that I have so many friends who are interested in this as well. Hundreds of them, as a matter of fact.

Thank you, Apollo. Thank you, uh, for taking it on the chin and boldly going where none of us had gone before. And thank you everyone for being here.

Again, I'm, I'm stunned at the work of the translators and I'm excited that I got a firsthand look at, um, at the hard work that you do. And I look forward to the next opportunity. I'm so glad we get to spend this time together.

We will see you on Saturday, the ninth, I believe. And, um, it's just been a delight, a wonderful night. Have a great day.

Have a sweet afternoon, sleep tight, go face your day. And tomorrow, if you're in the United States, vote. Yeah, please.

Yeah. It's good. Thank you.

Good reminder. I copied what you wrote and I'll try and figure out what you said. Thank you guys.

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