Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 49

[Speaker 2]
Hello, sir. What language was that? Hello, sir.

Oh, hello, sir. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I guess it was Richard Nixon language, maybe, slightly. Where I live is his hometown, I guess, interestingly.

[Speaker 2]
Nixon country. He was actually a really good surfer.

[Speaker 1]
Really? No, I just made that up. I'm just kidding.

I don't think so. Can you tell I'm gullible? No reason not to believe it, but it's kind of would be weird.

[Speaker 2]
Who wants to do a quiz? Yay. Yay.

[Speaker 1]
So welcome to the quiz for class two of this term. I thank you for your interest in this text. May we understand perfectly what it means in the mind only school as to what the lack of inherent existence is so that we can then understand the consequence branch version.

Okay. So in mixed nuts language, what is being a bit confused in class a long day of? That's a great question.

And in your response, use an English word for the Tibetan given here. It happens a lot in my class. Or my text, I should say.

What's that? Means you're. Indicator of what?

Indicator that you're paying attention. You must have confused your parents earlier. And you're actually probably learning something.

Yay. According to the mind only school, is blue appearing as blue to the eye consciousness, an indicator of the potential spread of consciousness? Articulation.

Why or why not? There's potential for articulation. Articulation.

Ninja. Keep back, Jack. Yes.

[Speaker 2]
No, I think so.

[Speaker 1]
No, it's not.

[Speaker 2]
I'm with Oscar. He said no.

[Speaker 1]
Why? I mean, why not?

[Speaker 3]
Because the blue is a result of the blue. How do you say? Maintaining the blue is a different shift of the potentials for articulation.

[Speaker 1]
Beautiful. Blue appears as blue is not an indicator of having called something blue over and over for time without beginning. Instead, it's the result of being produced by the, I don't know, this is provisional, consistent potential of the immediately preceding moment.

I kind of like that. So what is the Tibetan for consistent potential of the immediate preceding moment?

[Speaker 2]
I was definitely about to ask you that.

[Speaker 1]
Kei-chi-ki-bak-chak or something. No, bak-chak. What's that?

De-ma-tak? No. Oh, that was a good one.

Dek-chun-bak-chak. Dek-chun-bak-chak. Oh, yeah.

So what is the implication of your answer to the previous question in terms of the way the mind-only school divides up all things? Please also give some Tibetan, if appropriate, which it always is. Oh, I got it.

What was the previous question?

[Speaker 3]
I guess, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 3]
I guess the implication is that the blue appearing as blue does exist by definition, even if the blue deserving the name blue doesn't exist by definition.

[Speaker 1]
I'm not sure I would say exist by definition, but I think you're going on the right track that's heading in the right direction.

[Speaker 2]
Not to run into any trouble?

[Speaker 1]
No.

[Speaker 2]
All right. That was my big hope.

[Speaker 1]
You know, the middle, I mean, the middle way, the mind-only school divides the entirety of all things into three. Yeah. Yeah, and two of them are what I'm looking for in this answer.

Rather than being kun-tak, the blue is shen-wang. Yeah, very good. Because an object which appears as a result of having been produced by the consistent seeds of the immediately preceding moment, it's subject to change in each moment.

Therefore, it's substantially established and a changing thing and not a mental construct. Whoa. Hey.

Nice.

[Speaker 2]
Thanks.

[Speaker 1]
That was a great quiz. That's what happens to students when they heard all that stuff. Now for the fun part.

[Speaker 2]
Feel myself learning.

[Speaker 1]
You feel yourself. Oh, that's great. You must be confused.

[Speaker 2]
Just wait till we do this one.

[Speaker 1]
Is it too big? Not big enough? A little bigger would be nice if you could.

Oh, really? Okay. You don't have to.

It's like three feet wide in my world. That's good. No, actually 18 inches.

That's as big as I can make it. Okay. Yeah.

Okay, nice. It's very difficult. Who wrote Tectum?

Arya Sangha. And is it one of the books he brought back from Maitreya? It is not.

[Speaker 2]
Or he wouldn't have let us say it was him.

[Speaker 1]
This is Arya Sangha himself. Kelte Nambarik Patsam. If something which is in reality just...

Nambarik? Let me move this underneath.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, cool.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good. If something appears an object of... This is a little trickier.

Excuse me. If something which is in reality just Rigpa... Just perception.

Yeah, which is just mental, okay, is appearing as a dhun outside. Appearing as an external object. Yeah, so if a blue which is really just part of your mind is appearing as an external object, that's what he's saying here, okay?

I think, yeah. Then... So really, this is very interesting.

The appearance of the blue outside is at the what? Of the inside mind. Yeah, it's at the dependence.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
At the mercy of. Yeah. Okay.

Therefore, that's shenwang. Whoa. Wow.

Okay, so usually we say shenwang means the tree depends on its seed, right? And the seed has the power which is shenwang. But here, I'll just throw it out there.

Can we say that the blue outside is at the shenwang of the inner seeds? Yeah. Well, there is no blue outside, number one.

So I would say no. Well, can we say the dhundunowa? That it appears external, that would be more of a kuntak, wouldn't it?

Than a shenwang? The fact that it appears... Well, what this seems to say is the fact that something is appearing outside is happening because of something else.

Where's the outside? Uh, dhundunang, understood, chiro dhundunang. I'm sorry, say again.

There was a noise. The word dhundunang is always chiro dhundunang.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so the fact that something is appearing outside, right, is by its very nature is dependent on another condition. Which means the seeds in the foundation consciousness. Okay.

Is that what you think shenwang means here? And why would you call it shenwang? In what sense is it dependent on something else?

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Let's keep going. This is one of those cases where I'd rather go on. Okay.

Yeah, the next sentence is easy. You want to read it? Ranggibakchak?

Oh, I already did. You did already, yeah. Ranggibakchak yi sabun leng kye pa yinpe.

Because it does arise from its own latency. It's good. Thus it's governed by other factors.

Yeah, good. So I'm just going to take your first sentence. And what did we note between the tengyur and kerupje?

Those underlined words are the differences. So what appears here and here are words that are in kerupje and not in the version of Arya Sangha's text that we have. And this word is in Arya Sangha's text and is absent in the version that we have from kerupje.

Yeah, so this object appearing, for example, blue on the outside is appearing because the karmic seeds for it have opened within the mind, right? Therefore, says kerupje, it is dominated by other factors, okay? And the tengyur only says, therefore, it is a dominee of other factors.

Okay, that's all. Kerupje appears to have added a few syllables to make his case more... Well, he did it up here as well.

He added two. Oh, wow, that's a big one. That is a big one.

That's a huge one. Which is why I said appearing as an object and not just an object appearing. Yeah, that's a huge one.

Yeah, good, good catch. Okay. Give me the le in kerupje le.

It's comparative. Rather than a bok chok seed? For more than a single instant.

You see? The le is T-H-A-N. You see?

Oh, greater than. For any more than a single instant. And because of that, it's shengyuang.

What do you think about that?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's interesting that other power here means other than the object, but not really other than you.

[Speaker 1]
Well, I think he's... I think he's contrasting dakni and shen. You see what I mean?

So shengyuang means at the mercy of other things. Dakni means in and of himself. Okay, so...

So I think it's something which starts for even a single instant, cannot remain on its own, on its own power, therefore it must be dependent on something else. Something like that, okay? In a sentence like this, I would try to rebuild the Sanskrit in my own head and see if there's any puns going on.

Like that famous paragraph in words text between chitta and upachitta. There might be some play of words going on here. So that's what you see with the dakni and the shen?

No, that's just outright contrast. But you might poke around and see if there's any... Sometimes when they say because of theirs, it's called shengyuang.

When you say shengyuang after shenwang, it means therefore we call it shenwang. And it might be a literal explanation, but it might not be, okay? I don't see anyone obvious here, and I'm sure if word did he would have mentioned it by now.

Yeah, I'm scanning it. I don't see anything. Yeah, I don't see anything that would suggest...

I don't see anything. Yeah, le hlakpa might be para, something like that. So anyway, okay, let's go on.

Hey, I wrote a little footnote about the differences. There seems to be two different points being made. Number one, something is under the influence of other factors.

If it's the blue, which appears to you on the outside, is being created by the bhagyaks in your own mind. It appears to say that that appearance is a shenwang for that reason. But then he gives a second meaning of shengyuang, which is that since in a millisecond a blue on the outside can only last for a millisecond, it must have been dependent on another energy.

Because its energy has sine wave, its energy has gone like this, which implies that something pushed it, something made it do that. So anytime there's a cause involved, you'll get a sine wave. You eat dinner, and then you feel strong for a while, and then you get hungry again, like that.

Two ideas there. Okay, please go. RANG GI BAG CHAGS NI RIGS DUNG PA'I BAG CHAGS SO Does he mention RANG GI BAG CHAGS in the quotation?

Uh, no. You sure? Uh, yeah.

Sure? Let me see.

[Speaker 3]
First thing out of his mouth.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, there it is. Yeah, it's the first sentence of the second part. Sorry, I only did it like two hours ago.

Yeah, so, uh, so, KTJ is saying, look, uh, He says RANG GI BAG CHAGS. Yeah, Asanga mentioned, Asanga mentioned its own seat. Asanga mentioned that.

What does he mean by that? I thought you said, did it say RIGS DUNG PA'I BAG CHAGS? Okay, yes, of course it said RIGS DUNG BAG CHAGS.

That's KTJ's interpretation. Okay, what's it mean? I'm sorry?

What's the difference between BAG CHAGS and RIGS DUNG BAG CHAGS? Wow, well, he's saying they're the same thing.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, they are, but he denies it.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, no, I don't take it that way. What is the knee then? No, I just take it as an equivalent sentence.

Knee is, is, yeah. But when he says RANG GI BAG CHAGS, it means, um, This is an idea of what, So, let's say that blue is appearing on the outside, right? And we can say that that appearance is being created by a karmic seed in their mind.

Can we say that? Right? But there's another aspect of the blue on the outside, is that it has duration.

It has duration. It stays for a while. Okay, I mean, any blue.

It stays for, you know, we got a green. It continues, right? We wouldn't say it stays, right?

He's kind of saying a cool thing, and I can't quite wrap my mind around it, but the appearance of the blue is kind of like a line that you draw between your kung shi out to the blue. Right? Okay?

But there's some other causation going on where the blue of the previous moment was sustaining the blue of the current moment.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Kind of at a 90 degree angle. That in time, the blue is being sustained by some other causes. You see, there's, the creator of the blue is my previous karma.

It's the seeds in my, inside of my kung shi. But what makes the sustaining of the blue, what keeps the blue going from moment to moment? And he's kind of implying, he's kind of saying, that's a different kind of causation.

The blue is popping out of your seeds in your mind. That's one kind of causation. But the blue has duration.

Something's keeping the blue going. And it's almost like the blue of the previous moment is triggering the blue of the next moment, and triggering the blue of the next moment, and triggering the blue. And we call that a RIG TUNG GYIL BAG CHANG.

Okay? And it means a seed for the sustained existence of something. RIG TUNG.

Of the same thing. It's why the blue didn't change into green, or yellow, or something like that. There was some kind of consistent cause, internal cause, creating...

And that's a very common idea in Buddhism. The cup has seeds in it that are sustaining its existence across time. The cup of the previous millisecond is causing the cup of the next second.

So can we say there's a second causation going on with blue? That the previous instant of the blue is triggering the next instant of the blue, at the same time that the next instant of the blue is flowing out of seeds in our refrigerator.

[Speaker 2]
Saying in the previous paragraph that the seed is coming from RIG, from mind, rather than a RIG TUNG GYIL BAG CHANG is what makes it other-powered. Because it's not coming from that.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, you mean that it's coming from mind? That form is coming from mind?

[Speaker 2]
If it were coming from that RIG TUNG GYIL BAG CHANG, then it would be RANG WONG. But it's not.

[Speaker 1]
Could it be both? Do they have to be contradictory?

[Speaker 2]
I just thought that that's what he was saying here when he said RANG GYIL BAG CHANG GYI SA BUN LAS, when you said it was comparative, rather than being caused by that. Right?

[Speaker 1]
No, this LES here is definitely from...

[Speaker 3]
Okay, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. The comparative LES is in the next paragraph. Yeah, okay.

But what I'm getting at is... Let's say there's a... All Buddhism says that entities have the power to trigger the next moment of themselves.

The color of the cup has the power to trigger the color of the cup of the next moment, until the power of the seed wears out. And that's called a RIG TUNG GYIL BAG CHANG, okay? That's called a same-type seed, same-type cause, okay?

I don't know. So could you have the existence of the blue is coming from the seeds in the mind, but the continuation of the blue is coming from something in the blues? I don't think he's saying that.

Hmm. Because there is nothing that is... First of all, nothing external to the mind that could be causing anything, right?

What's going on is that this is not... We're talking about an appearance of blue. Let's read 3.1.3 and see if it helps. Well, the way I translated it may be the issue. RIG TUNG GYIL BAG CHANG ZHES SBYANG BA'I YANG PHYI ZHIG BYAS NA ZHES PA SNGA MA SNGA MA'I RANG DRE ZHES PA BYIS MA BYIS MA SKYED PA'I NUS PA RANG DRAG PA NA KUN ZHI'I RNAM PAR ZHES PA LA DGOS NAS ZHAG PA GANG YIN PA'O Yeah, so he says, what do I mean when I say here a deep seed for the same thing, okay? What do I mean when I say here a deep seed for the same thing, okay?

RIG TUNG GYIL BAG CHANG, okay? What do I mean when I say that? ZHES SBYANG PHYI ZHIG BYAS NA What do you mean when you say a deep seed for the same thing?

And he says, ZHES PA SNGA MA'I SNGA MA'I Each previous moment of awareness, good, has the NUS PA, yeah, it has the capacity or ability to trigger, and I like trigger for SKYED in this context, a latter awareness, RANG DRAG, which is similar to it. You see what I mean? That's what I'm trying to say.

There's a kind of seed in Buddhism, a kind of cause in Buddhism, which causes the continuity of the white cup. And the white cup of three o'clock creates the white cup of three o'one. So it's called a consistent seed, RIG TUNG, meaning the consistent or continuing existence of the same entity, okay?

Now, what entity is he talking about here? Cups? Blue?

Is he talking about blue? He's talking about an appearance. He's talking about an awareness of blue.

Yeah, awareness of blue, yeah, ZHES PA. So he switched the example to, he's not talking about the blue anymore, he's talking about awareness, and that's called SANTANA, who knows? No, there could be a flow of...

A stream of mind, isn't it? No, that's... okay, yeah, he's talking about how one moment of mind triggers the next moment of mind, and then that moment of mind triggers the next moment of mind, seeds for continuity.

Seeds for continuity of the mind, okay? Each previous instant of the mind pushes out a likeness of itself, RANG DRAG, for the next moment, and that's why you can have a sustained thought, or a sustained perception of a color for over a second, or two seconds, or five minutes, okay? All right, PHYI MA CHUB KYI PA'I NUS PA RANG Now, what happens in the mind-only school when that energy is exhausted, RANG DRAG, okay?

When the blue no longer has power to create a blue of the next moment, what happens? Apparently there's something left over. Yeah, some kind of energy transport transferred to the foundation consciousness.

And it gets smeared. Oh, smeared, yeah, yeah. The blue, or I could say the perception of blue, goes on, and then it starts to die out, and it leaves an imprint on the mind.

The perception of blue dies out, and it leaves an imprint on the mind as it dies. It transfers its last energy to the mind, an imprint, okay? You okay?

Why are you... Is it the imprint of the ending, or the imprint of the blue? What it says here is, KUN ZHIG NAM PA'I SHES PA LA DGOS NAS The perception ends, but as it ends, it smears some energy into the refrigerator.

[Speaker 2]
The cleanliness of it?

[Speaker 1]
And he's talking here about the perception. Yeah, but to try to divide the blue from the perception in this school is pretty difficult. Yeah, and that creates...

that's how a NGON GZUGS KYI BAG CHA works. That's how a word repeated for billions of years keeps plantings as it dies. It plants in the KUN ZHIG the seeds for its own cycle to come back.

It'll come back, and that's very interesting. I think what I noticed doing this homework, because I had this question last time, that this was... what we covered last time was an apparent, to me, contradiction to what he had said last term about the potential for articulation.

And the difference is, there he was talking about why you call something what you call it. And here he's talking about why you're aware of what you're aware of. So in general, Buddhism, since the time of Abhidharma, has accepted these KUN ZHIG and DUN GAN, DENG MA THAG GYEN, a factor which perpetuates itself.

So I think he's talking about, there's a seed that causes the appearance of blue, but what causes the flow of the blue? You see what I mean? Or what causes the flow of the perception of the blue?

So there's the appearance of the blue, then there's the continued appearance of the blue, and then there's the calling it blue? Yeah, and by the way, where he's headed to is that the end blue will have three different markers in it. One for the gypsum salts, one for the...

Hi Ochar. And one for the coffee grounds. Seriously, seriously, he's headed there.

He's headed there. That's where he's headed. Okay?

He says by the end of this discussion, we should recognize in the finished result, like in the appearance of blue, there should be evidence of three causes. There's more than one cause behind the blue. And each one leaves its tracks on the blue.

It's very interesting, okay? And so that's why the blue can be considered Shenron in so many different ways.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, cool.

[Speaker 1]
It's actually dependent in three ways on the chemicals you used when you did the gardening. And the evidence for each of those three kinds of causes is going to be observable in the result. Got it?

Interesting. Handy. Yeah.

Okay, here we go. 3.14. We've advanced. Did we do 3.14?

No, we have not. Okay, please torture somebody. Okay, Rebecca.

I would not like to torture you. However, I would love for you to read. She had a tortured look when you said it.

No. I don't know. 3.14?

Yes, please. Okay. You've got the cursor.

Oh, okay. Or you could say Lung J. Oh, Lung J, that's right.

Lung J, yeah. Therefore, Mikshe Chimala, when the blue continues to appear to your eyeball, okay, in the next moment, okay? So he's talking about the sustained presence of blue.

When the blue appears in the following instant, Chima, to your visual consciousness, when it appears to be blue, okay, ngor nang mikshe nga me, the eye consciousness of the moment before is leaving its tracks on the perception also. It's very interesting, okay? You can see...

It said the previous moment is leaving an impression on the current perception? That was on the... as well as the quenching?

The fact that blue continues to appear to the next moment of eye consciousness is partly due to the previous eye consciousness. Of the moment before, of the millisecond before. It's transferring its power to the second moment of consciousness.

So the continued presence of the blue is... In the other schools, it would be the blue of the moment before, right? And in this school, the blue perception or the blue...

What do you call that? The feeling of blue. The...

I don't know how to say that. Anyway, the feeling that blue is there is transferred from the perception of blue of the moment before, okay? So what he's talking about now is...

You gotta notice something. Is the second moment's perception of blue being created by a seed in the foundation consciousness? It must be, according to this school.

But here he introduces a second kind of causation going on. But there's also evidence that this moment of the perception of blue has been triggered by the previous moment's perception, mikshe, which is in no way to do with kushi. It's one of the six consciousnesses that we've been talking about all week, okay?

So here's a... Is it triggered like a kyen and not a gyu? Well, he calls it bhaktyak here, okay?

And bhaktyak... And by the way, the verb in the middle of the second line is joke, right? Joke means to...

A bhaktyak is planted in your mind, okay? So why do you have a continued visual awareness? That's not coming from the kushi.

Kushi only makes other kinds of stuff, okay? The visual consciousness of the moment before is the trigger for the visual consciousness of the second moment, even as the blue which it's seeing is coming out of the mind. So they're concurrent.

Yeah, I say they're concurrent. And he says you can see the evidence of this in the perception of blue five minutes later. You can make assumptions about the perce...

When you observe a perception of blue going on five minutes later, you can make certain assumptions about what caused it. And the fact that you're having a visual consciousness, right? That's coming from the previous visual consciousness.

It's flowing on. And you... The fact that you're having a visual consciousness five minutes later is evidence that you had a visual consciousness before.

It's very interesting. So when you're, say, in deep meditation, single-pointed concentration on an object. So the very first instant of that object came from the kunshi and then every subsequent moment of perception of that object comes from the previous moment's perception of that object.

What is the kunshi doing then? I think you gotta... That's all you're doing.

I think you gotta figure it out. But I believe the mind-only school is trying to accommodate the beliefs of the rest of Buddhism. I mean, Abhidharma teaches these four factors and these five kinds of causes.

And they're trying to accommodate those guys, I think. Okay? What he's gonna say is, by the end of this section, that when you have a perception of blue five minutes later, that perception of blue five minutes later has indicators or signs or evidence or a trail left behind by three different factors.

[Speaker 3]
Can we still say that the kunshi is an indirect cause?

[Speaker 2]
Like, the wood is an indirect cause for the smoke, but the fire is a direct cause for the smoke?

[Speaker 1]
I think what he's flirting with is the perception of blue is... The blue that you perceive is coming from the foundation consciousness, from the seeds in your mind. But the continued existence of that perception is coming from the previous moments of the perception.

Okay? And then he says, this last line is important. You want to raffle with that?

Oh, right. We have the... So we're talking about latent seeds.

Watch out. Yeah, okay. No, the...

Oh, they're not. They're not latent seeds. Sorry?

They're not latent seeds. Give me the last line here. So a conceptual labeling...

Yeah, good. You can say that. But it's not a conceptual labeling of a latent bhakta.

Yeah, we don't see in the continued existence of a perception of blue any evidence for this continued existence of the perception of blue was caused by some kind of mental labeling. Why did he say that? Could it be a dig at somebody else?

Yeah, it could be a dig at the consequence branch, absolutely. It could be a dig at the middle way school. Okay, we don't see any evidence, we don't see any indication, resulting trail left behind by a mental process of naming.

Okay? Basically, the continued existence of the visual consciousness is coming from seeds left by the visual consciousness of the moment before. That's why you can sustain a focus on one color for more than a millisecond.

The perception of blue at millisecond number one dies. As it's dying, it leaves a seed in the mind for the next moment of the perception of blue. The death of one millisecond's perception of blue plants a seed for the next millisecond's perception of blue.

Then you have one of the six consciousnesses causing the perception of blue. It's not some kind of theoretical thing. It's just the mind of the moment before is creating the mind of the present moment.

Forget all this mental seeds creating blue stuff. It doesn't mean that he's not agreeing that the blue came from the opening of a seed in the mind in these foundation concepts. He's not denying that.

He's just saying there's other reasons for the continuation of the perception. And if you look at the perception of blue at five minutes later, you can see evidence of a karmic seed in the refrigerator. But you can also see evidence of a previous moment of consciousness which triggered this moment of consciousness.

I think he's trying to say you can accommodate both. And by the way, where he's going after this, if you want to know, is who gave those seeds the power to do that? Why does a perception of blue at five o'clock have the power to duplicate itself at five o' one?

You know, what's inside the visual consciousness, which is not a kunshi. Okay, it's one of the six perceptions, one of the six consciousnesses. But it has some kind of seeds in it.

Because the perception of blue at five o'clock can create a perception of blue at five o' one. It has the power to sustain itself. Not indefinitely, but until the seeds wear out, the perception of blue at five o'clock is triggering the perception of blue at five o' one.

As it dies, it throws the baton to the next moment of blue. It's very beautiful.

[Speaker 2]
Actually, you say not indefinitely. What causes that?

[Speaker 1]
Now, that's what I wanted to say. That's caused by deep, weird seeds in the six consciousnesses. Okay, and then he said, we got to go there next.

What was Hasso's question? I couldn't hear. Hasso said, why would it ever end?

If the perception of blue at five o'clock, if the visual awareness of blue at five o'clock is somehow contributing to the visual awareness of blue at five o' one, then why does it ever stop? And then you have to say there are deep, deep seeds. Forever.

He's going to go there. He's going to go there. It's very interesting.

Then you have to say that visual consciousness has deep seeds in it. And those are different deep seeds than the deep seeds in the foundation consciousness. Foundation consciousness is spitting out the blue, but the continued perception of it is partly due, as we can see from evidence, to the visual consciousness of the moment.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I thought it might only happen. Consciousness cannot store seeds.

[Speaker 1]
Exactly. Yeah, they cannot store seeds, but not karmic seeds. I don't think he's going to say karmic seeds.

I was just aware of it. Are there other kinds of seeds? Are there deeper deep seeds that you already know is coming?

What's the deep seeds? Yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there.

I would really like to get there. Look, what seems to be going on here is he's saying there's some kind of deep seeds in your mind that create a blue outside of you that you mistake to be outside of you, which is actually inside your mind. You're watching a blue arise inside your mind, and you mistakenly think it's a blue outside.

But, so that explains where the blue's coming from. But where did the perception of inside your eye, where did the capacity of perception inside your eye come from? And he says, oh, well, that's different.

That comes from the previous moment of capacity of the eye. The capacity of the eye tends to propagate capacity of the eye, okay? And you can see that from the evidence.

In the five minutes later, if there's a visual consciousness five minutes later, that's evidence that there was a previous visual consciousness. So he says, if you're really sensitive, you can see three different kinds of causation going on in a simple perception of the color blue. It's very interesting.

Extremely interesting. Only Kitty Dew is gone here, okay? Let's keep going.

Maybe we'll get more clues. We've got three minutes. So, Rebecca, please read.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so follow this.

Is blue something we can call blue? If we have the seeds for it, sure. Yeah.

And is it something you can call changing? Yeah. Yeah, and that's what he's been discussing all along.

The blue that is created by the seeds in your foundation consciousness, you can call it blue, but you can also call it a changing thing, okay? Now, is that blue the name... I'm sorry, is that blue the object of the name blue?

Is that blue the... Which blue? The one we're calling changing?

It came out of a seed in your mind, and you think it's outside, but it's not really outside. Is that blue... Oh, yeah, is this where he said, not even deceptively, is that the case?

No. Is that blue what you call the word blue?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's the object of the word blue. Did you see blue today? Yes.

Blue, okay. The blue that's created by seeds in your refrigerator, and the seed opens up inside your mind, and a little patch of blue appears inside your mind, and due to billions of years of mistake, you think it's outside, okay? Can it be called blue?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it comes from a weird place, but it's still blue.

Is it the object of the word blue? Yeah. Can you call it changing?

Yeah, and then later you don't see it anymore. Now, another deeper question. You ready?

When your mind has created a blue which is inside your mind, and you make another mistake, and you think it's outside of your mind, okay, which is ignorance in the mind-only school, and the absence of that is emptiness in the mind-only school, okay, when you see a blue, even if you misunderstand where it's coming from, and you think it's out there, okay, even if that... Can you call it blue? Yes.

Is it a fact that blue can be called blue? Yeah, it can be called blue.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's a fact.

[Speaker 1]
What's the status of facts in Buddhism?

[Speaker 2]
Unchanging.

[Speaker 1]
Unchanging, okay. Keep that thought in mind, okay? ,ZHI YIN PAR YANG, ,SNGON PAR BYED PA'I BAG CHAGS KYI DBANG YIN NANG BA'I PHYIR, Now, this guy says, this guy's wondering, and Tsongkhapa's saying, maybe you're going to wonder about this.

Of course we didn't. Maybe you're going to wonder if calling blue, blue, when you call blue, blue, okay, BAG CHAGS TE BDE BU YIN DGOS PA, if calling blue, blue is also coming from a seed, from the foundation consciousness, if calling blue, blue is coming from a seed in the foundation consciousness, then the fact that blue is blue is no longer... Changing.

Unchanging. Wait, say that again, please. If the fact that blue, wherever it is, can be called with the name blue, is coming out of your kunshin, okay, then you might wonder to yourself, is it then the case that the fact that something is named what it's named becomes changing and not unchanging?

And it will be the first unchanging fact in Buddhist history. I'll say it again. Is blue called blue?

Is that changing or unchanging? No, the fact that blue is called blue. When we say fact, then that means it doesn't change, okay?

It can go out of existence, but it doesn't change until it does.

[Speaker 2]
You can call it any other way, no?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you can call it blue glow, it doesn't matter. But the fact that blue is called blue, that's unchanging, okay? But, if the fact that you're calling blue blue is somehow growing out of a seed in your kunshi, then the fact that blue is blue is no longer an unchanging thing.

You might, you smart students might wonder about it. Okay? It means, or it's not a thing that's called blue, be a changing thing?

He says, NYAM NA If you super smart students start wondering about that, I'll tell you in the next Uddpala class. Thank you very much, Keshe-la. What should I do for the next time?

I don't know, take some aspirin, call me in the morning. Okay. 316, 317, 318, 319.

And 319. Okay. All right.

Good luck. Take a deep breath. Yeah.

Apparently that phrase from Mahayana Sangraha is a play on words. Why? He's just saying something of the nature of like, it's playing with Nupa and Wong because it's not, because it's Tak-Ni-Ma-Nupa, it is Shen-Gi-Wong.

So Nupa and Wong, apparently, because we don't have the Sanskrit, but it seems like they're the same. So he's like, because it's not of the self, it is from others. Because it's not self-powered, it's powered by others.

Okay, good. Yeah, I like it. It tastes like that.

It smells like that. Okay. It's worthy of further examination, which is how Justin Koppa gets out of the room.

Thank you, Eric. Thank you, Geshe-la. Okay, it's fun.

Thanks, Geshe-la. See you soon. Yes, yes.

10 minutes. You guys have dinner? 10 minutes?

Oh my God, I could eat three bites. Thank you, Nick. Thank you, Geshe-la.

Thank you, everybody. Sashi. Okay.