Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 37

[Speaker 1]
Hello, anybody here? Yay. So, um, I want to thank you for being here.

I want to thank you for your interest in these topics, which I think are so very important for, you know, improving our lives, improving the condition of the world and the condition of everyone's experience. And it's, it's just a beautiful thing to be gathered together in, in this, in this pursuit, you know, even though we're not all in the same physical room, we are connected with each other in this time. And, and there's a power in that.

And it's something to rejoice about. Um, I don't know, it helps me a lot. I sit in my room alone all day, every day for two years now.

And so to be with you guys all over the world is really, really great. So thank you for that. Oh, I, um, I'm just here to help, you know, to discuss any things you would like to discuss.

And let's see what happens. Feel free to ask anything. And I will feel free to say, I don't know, or, or try to answer.

So we do have a question in the chat. Oh, yeah, about. So the question is about in the book, emptiness meditations, the part of the book that is by Chinni Lama Drakpa Shedrup, light on the path to freedom speaks about the belief of, of those in the non Buddhist schools, that a self that there is a self that is unchanging, singular, and autonomous.

And then there's another phrase that's used. How did he put it exactly? Was it singular in the sense of?

Oh, I have to look it up. It's, it's what is singular, autonomous, and substantial. I think it's singular and autonomous.

In the sense of being substantial, it's something like the phrase is something like that. Okay, so unchanging is clear, right? That a self that could exist, that would not change.

So the, the bets at two years old, who could not, oh, no, she spoke a lot, actually, the bets at one year old. And the bets at 63 years old would, you know, communicate with others in the same way. Right?

If, if they're unchanging. But obviously, well, not obviously, because he didn't know me 62 years ago. I'm a bit different than I was then.

And, and we're actually different from day to day. Like this morning, I'm feeling a little foggy, foggy minded. Sorry.

Um, where yesterday I felt very clear minded. It changes. So unchanging is easy, singular.

This, this has the connotation of not being affected by other things. These are singular and autonomous are very, very similar, I think. Autonomous means that you know, I'm in control.

Or I would be if there were such a thing as a self that was truly autonomous, right? That I could decide that I am forevermore going to be happy. No, no matter what occurs.

And then forevermore, I would be happy. If I get in a car accident, if I see my mother die in front of my eyes, if I stub my toe, if I eat some food, that's maybe not so good. I'll be happy.

You know, it's, it's, we don't, we don't decide in the moment, what we're going to do that we think I'm raising my hand. Because I, I am raising my hand. It is a mistake.

That that that is a karmic that is a ripening of, of, of seeds that we have planted in the past. We don't have control in the moment. We think we do.

But we don't. And then singular is this sort of independence that a self that is singular would be something that I don't know, it's almost impossible to conceive of actually how you could think that yourself was self standing singular. I hope that helps a little bit.

Um, okay, there's a question that Anna asked about the difference between suchness. Again, we're talking about the emptiness meditations book. And we use the word suchness in relationship to, I'm thinking lower schools, lower philosophical schools, and emptiness in the higher schools.

So suchness, um, it would be like, um, is this the way things are the, the, like, the way reality is, it is, it is so. And it's more of a, we understand it as meaning that no thing has any nature of its own. It is not itself.

But the word emptiness, you know, what is empty, what, what emptiness means exactly differs depending on the philosophical school. So when we're speaking about those philosophical schools, in the lower schools, we would use selflessness, or the lack of the self. And then in the higher schools, we would say emptiness, just because they think of things differently.

I don't know if that helps if you, Anna, if you want to talk offline, maybe we could have a little chat about like, where and specifically in the text, this is occurring. And so, um, yeah, we could, I could, I'm happy to talk with you about that.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. I was just trying to find another verbal explanation for suchness so that I know how to put it in Romanian.

And it's clearer. And I'm on the right track. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Great, great, great, great. Um, Roxanne asks, in Tibetan, there are two, two terms. There's yin and yi.

Yin. It's challenging for English speakers. I don't know other languages.

And so I don't know if any of you on the call may have the same trouble that an English speaker would. But when English would translate yin and yi as is, but yin would be equating two things, or talking about the relationship between two things. Um, the, the air is cool.

So air, yin, cool. Where yi is talk, is a existential, is talking about its existential nature. Does it exist or not?

So we would say, there is a mountain over there, which means that mountain exists, where the Tibetans would use yi. So the question is, where'd it go? Uh, if existence is defined as that which is perceived, how is to be defined?

I need help with your question.

[Speaker 3]
No, you answered that. I didn't. I'm sorry.

You didn't. I didn't understand that it was you explain it perfectly. It makes so much sense now.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good, good, good. Great. On a roll.

I'm going to rejoice, rejoice, rejoice. Okay. Oh, here we go.

Oh, we talked about that one. That's the Chinese. Sarani.

Hi, welcome. Sarani asks, I hear the term cognitive thought. It seems to imply there is a non-cognitive thought.

What are Tibetan words for these? And is there such a thing as non-cognitive thought? What is meant by that?

Thank you. Um, I think that phrase is that those two words are put together, not because there is thought without cognition. I think it's just more to to indicate that thought is, for example, different than what you do with your other sense powers, like seeing, which the eye can only see colors and shapes.

But we say, oh, I, I, I, I see all you guys. I see. I see that you're there, which is really not correct in so many different ways, because I don't see you.

I see a tiny little image of you. But I don't even see that. I just see colors and shapes.

And it's my mind that sees you. As far as so I think I don't think there's such a thing as non-cognitive thought, because thought is, you know, let me just look up cognition quick. Right.

I think it's just trying to distinguish between what's going on with your physical senses in, you know, hearing and seeing and tasting and touching, and what's going on with your mind. And for words, we had like Shenpa yesterday, two days ago now, I guess, in interlude on emptiness, which was translated as belief. But it's like, it's a very strongly held thought.

We had, let me just open, open, open. I'm not a human Tibetan dictionary. I need, I need aids.

We had a stok, which is thought or thinking about sometimes, depending on context, it, that word refers to incorrect or mistaken thought. And sometimes it just in general, it means in general, thought or thinking. But I hope that helps a little bit.

Oh, and then a follow up is cognitive thought. The same as intellect. I think, you know, it intellect is, is an ability or a capability with regard to what could be regard to different things, but in general, to understand something.

So some people have an intellect for language. Which means an ability to understand it. Some people have an intellect for mechanical things, which means say, like they are able to, you know, you put some machine that's broken in front of them.

And, and they can figure out what's going on and what might be wrong and how to fix it. And some people have an intellect for math. And you put numbers or particular quantum issues in front of them and, and they can like, and it's also very similar to language, but it is a very different language.

And they can like, translate it into numbers and equations and relationships. And so intellect is, in general, intelligence would be the ability to understand. And there are different levels, right?

So very, very young children, they have an intelligence to actually, they are so they are super intelligent at, they are learning a language very, very rapidly. And by two years on the planet, they're, you know, putting together sentences and communicating with the world around them, where when they were born, they were just, you know, screaming. So, or crying.

So I think that's the cognitive thought is more, more overarching than, and a different type of thing than, than intellect. We're talking about an ability or a capability to understand versus thinking. I hope that makes sense.

The luminous image that arises from the mind at the moment of seeing the dependent generation of things in the path of seeing is a metaphor. In deep meditation, there is not supposed to be a functioning mind to see. So here's the thing about mind, which is defined in Buddhism as clear and aware.

It never stops. It cannot be stopped. The mind as it exists in this particular bag of bones and flesh, the mind we call Beth's, Beth's mind, will, when this, when this bag of bones and stuff dies, it continues, that mind continues.

So it's moment by moment by moment by moment by moment in continuation in a stream. So in that, that's the way, and that's the way it changes too. It changes moment by moment by moment by moment in, you know, infinitesimal moment by moment.

What we do in meditation is in the practice of single pointed meditation. We are developing the ability to place our mind on a single object, unwavering with, and very clear and bright. The object is very clear and bright.

The mind is very clear and bright. So in that state of samadhi, single pointed concentration, we are, we have not stopped the mind. The mind is still experiencing its object.

And even though, let's say from another perspective, it appears as though the mind is not moving, it still is, or not that the mind is not moving, that time is still moving, right? I watch a meditator and I go, oh, they went into meditation at three o'clock and oh, they're out of meditation at four o'clock. But if you're, if you sat down, immediately went into single pointed concentration meditation on the nature of reality, to you at that, during that period, there is no time, you do not experience any, any movement.

You have placed your mind on that object. And it, and you keep it there. And it stays there until you end the meditation.

So the mind is not stopped. It's, it's just, I don't know, this sounds airy-fairy, but it's like, it's just one with its object. All there is to the mind is the object.

There's no, there's no breathing. And there's no experience of breathing, because that would be another object and the mind would be going back and forth, right? There's no time, because again, that's another object.

There's no getting brighter, getting fading. No, because those would be different objects. So it's one object, the mind is on it.

And like, that's it for you in the world. There is nothing else for you that exists, period, but that object. It's only to others that there's any time or any breathing or any body that you have or anything like that.

So let's see. Luminous image. So that was the, that was the, I think, answer to the second part of the question.

I hope. The first part of the question is, is luminous image, the one that arises in, in the mind, when you see how things, how it is that you actually see the world. You know, they, Geshe Michael talks about that when the karmic seed ripens, it ripens as a luminous image.

And it's the same with sounds. Sounds are ripening as a luminous image. Everything is ripening as a luminous image.

And we have to expand our thinking thinking for luminous image to include all these different types of sensory perceptions. Right? So it's not literally a, and it, I have no, do I have a picture?

It's not a, Oh, I got to hold it still. It's not a picture of a person, right? That's, that's bright or glowing.

It's not like that. What it's like is, so yes, it's a metaphor, shorthand, but it's like, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a representation of a thing that we think exists out there, real, separate from us. So this picture is thrown on the object.

And this object was previously a luminous picture that was thrown on its basis, right? It's just a, a series of, Oh, Siri thought I was talking to her. It's just a, a continuum of ripening luminous images that are being thrown on stuff that we previously threw out there through images.

So when we see that, we see that it's not the thing. Yeah. So I wish we could like remember the first time that we looked in a mirror and knew that it was not a real being.

Try and catch yourself, like walk around a city that has a lot of glass at street level and, and see if, if you can like catch your mind being mis, thinking that, Oh, there's someone there when it's really just a reflection and just see if you can catch what's going on with your mind and how it, how it grasps onto things as being real and not, not otherwise, not, not illusory. I hope that helps. Let's see.

Olga always asks very, very good questions that lead me to weeks of contemplation. Let's see. Why, why are concepts considered changing?

They do change over the course of our lives. And isn't it exactly the changing nature of the concept of Buddha, for example, that has to place on our way to Buddhahood. For example, we have to start thinking of all people as Buddha, even those who give us harm.

So I think, do you mean unchanging there? The concepts are considered unchanging? Not changing?

Yeah. So like a fact is considered an unchanging thing. And facts can, or like in Adam's text, when we talk about, there's the quality, and then there are the characteristics of that quality.

So there's basically an idea or concept, car, and there are all these different kinds of cars. There are so many different kinds that I'm not up on all of them. I only remember cars from a long time ago, but but Toyotas and other kinds of cars.

So a car doesn't, doesn't change moment, by moment, by moment. It, let's do phone, that's more fun. Phone.

So when I was a kid, a phone was this big, like, machine that stuck on the wall. And it had a handle that you picked up in a receiver that released the receiver. So the connection on this hard, physical wire went to wherever it went to the phone systems that connected all the wires from all the towns that had wires hanging.

And you then used your finger to make this rotary dial, input the number of the person you wanted to call. So to make a call, took about a minute. And if your friend had a lot of nines in their phone number, it was like, oh my gosh, nine.

Anyway, so that's my, that's phone when I was young. Now, it's this tiny thing that I can carry around with me, needs no wires, except for charging. And I hit things.

Or I just talk to it. Hey Siri, call Jigme. Oh, don't do that really.

Sorry. Sorry, Jigme. So, this manifestation of phone is very different from the manifestation of phone from, you know, 60 years ago, when I learned phone.

Did phone change? I ask you. Did it really?

Could I still what, could I still call what is on the wall of my childhood home phone? It's still a manifestation of phone. But it doesn't match, the pictures don't match.

This thing, this tiny thing doesn't match at all the picture of phone I have in my mind. So, my idea of phone, my idea of phone now is different. It's been expanded because of my experience with other things in the world that do what that first phone did, which was, oh, grandma, how are you?

Merry Christmas. And to hear my grandma speak. Right?

So, I think maybe we could say, oh, shoot, I had a word and now I lost it. Oh, it's hard for me to put this in English, but, or any other language for that matter. It's the phone didn't change instant by instant.

It wasn't changing instant by instant. This phone, actually, I think I might go reverse what I said earlier. This, the idea of phone I have now, is different.

And while I could say my idea of phone has changed, right, those are just words we place on it to talk about our experience. What I have now is a different phone. Two-year-old Betz's idea or concept of phone is not 63-year-old Betz's idea of phone.

They are different. I don't think my mental image of phone changed until I was, I don't know, when did we come out of retreat? That was the first time that I really saw, I mean, there were flip phones before I went into retreat, but not many people used them.

They still had the phone in their home that was hooked by the wire. But when I came out of retreat, everyone was holding these. And I was like, whoa, what's that?

Yeah. So, that's when I got a different phone. Cotting says, sometimes I just look for my camera when I'm looking for my phone.

Oh, yeah, that it takes pictures is amazing. So, and facts can change, right? The fact held by people before Galileo thought the earth was flat.

And rightly so, right? I mean, if you look around, our experience is that, yeah, it's flat. We got mountains and stuff, but there's a horizon.

It's flat. And it wasn't until people who have an intellect with geometry and physics and looking at the stars and going, oh, wait, earth is not flat. Or that the earth, the sun revolves around the earth, not that the earth revolves around the sun.

It was a fact before that the sun revolved around the earth. That's what people thought was going on. And it was true.

Because that was our experience. It rises in the east and falls in the west. Every day.

Yeah, that's what's going on. And then smarter people than me figured out, no, it's the earth revolving around the sun. And that fact died.

It ended. It ceased to exist. And the fact that the earth revolves around the sun came into existence.

Pop. It exists. And it will exist for as long as it does.

Until the Milky Way blows up and then it's no longer true. And it just pops out. It goes, ceases to exist, stops.

No slowly coming to decline. It's just either there or not there. That fact.

So, so in the practice of thinking of all, okay, so an enlightened being perceives all, all living beings, as well, they experience everything is divine, right? So all, all beings are enlightened. All experiences are pure bliss.

And in our practice of getting to that state, this is not how it happens. But one of the things we do to, in a way, prepare our minds for that experience is to conceive of others as, as divine. So early on in the practice, we're encouraged to consider our teacher as the Buddha.

And, and to consider those who harm us. There's the practice of the eight steps of considering those who bring us physical harm as our teachers, actually. Does that mean when we say, consider all beings who have harmed me as my teacher, does, and my teacher is the Buddha, right?

I see, and I to see my teacher as a Buddha, does that mean then someone who hits me with their car is a Buddha? If in the moment of being hit, you have the experience of being upset at that person for doing so, you're not, they are not a Buddha for you. Full stop.

The practice is seeing as, not seeing that they are. Do you see the difference between those two? There's our experience.

Of, of things. And we're trying to train our mind to, to like, to, maybe it's to open up our experience from, from the way it appears to us naturally, which we know is not true, right? We're, we're putting all kinds of stuff on what we experience, but we, we expand it so that we can train ourselves to, well, hey, maybe when something bad happens, if not right at the moment, very shortly thereafter, well, hey, what is this teaching me?

What could this be teaching me? How, how could this, let's not do a car because that's really hard. Let's do, someone bumps into you with their cart at the grocery store and it sort of hits your ankle.

Ow! To see that as, oh, what, what is this teaching me? Like, what can I learn from this?

How is this person guiding me on my path to become awakened, fully awakened? So that's like a, a training mechanism. And you probably have heard the metaphor of rowing the boat across the ocean, that the Dharma, the practice of Dharma is rowing a boat across the ocean to reach the other shore.

And then you get out of the boat, you leave the boat behind. We will get to a place where rowing the boat, seeing people as Buddhas, seeing teachers as Buddhas, seeing people hit my ankle as teaching me, it will be for us, divine. We will no longer be thinking as if it were so.

It will be for us that way. Just like right now, if someone hits me with the cart before I go, hey, I better be practicing the Dharma here. It will be for me a painful experience that someone did to me, not my fault.

I had nothing to do with it. I'm just standing here. They hit me.

So we're, we're changing our thinking so we can get to a place where we don't have to change our thinking. It just, our experience will be that. All is divine.

I hope that's helpful. Okay. We're two minutes over.

I hope that's enough to last you through the next few hours before Geshe-la comes back. Thank you so much for your practice. Thank you, live translators.

You blow my mind with your abilities to take things from one way of speaking to another way of speaking, to share these ideas with people. Just really, I always cry when I think of you. Thank you.

And thank you, Zoom, for having this program. Thank you, Internet, for allowing us to be in different places all over the planet, where normally we would have to all get on planes or boats and get together, where now we just walk into our bedroom and turn on the computer. Amazing.

So just be grateful for all of that. Like, what amazing things we have created. Wow.

I mean, we must be so close to being able to manifest on many planets, that we can manifest in a way on all these different countries on this one. Amazing. Rejoice.

And dedicate, dedicate, that it be so. Yeah. So may you be healthy and well, and may your interests continue, and may we be together again very soon.

Thank you so much. Bye.