Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 32

[Speaker 2]
Welcome to the quiz for class two of interlude on emptiness, and we're still in the land of mind only, but we had this little glimmer of hope in that Jason Kappa's name was mentioned, so we know that clarity is coming soon. So K2J says that everyone other than Jason Kappa, that is, thinks that they understand the mind only presentation of the lack of a self-nature to things, but they really only get one thing right. What one thing did they get right about the thing to be denied?

Do you remember? Do I get some money if I get it right? Sure.

Well, that's only part of it, so I'll give you half.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, I get 50 cents, okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, what is denied is that the objects that appear to mind, such as blue, are a different substance than the mind. In other words, an outer object. Okay, I knew that.

And then what was it that K2J said they missed with regard to refuting that things have a self-nature by definition? This one's more difficult.

[Speaker 3]
Is it two elements?

[Speaker 2]
There are two elements within it.

[Speaker 3]
That's great.

[Speaker 2]
That's true.

[Speaker 3]
I guess I know them. Things lack being an outer object.

[Speaker 2]
No, we already talked about that one.

[Speaker 3]
Oh.

[Speaker 2]
So, we're talking about this other thing that folks missed.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
But it has two parts to it. Given name by definition? We can refute that things have a self-nature by definition by considering the essential nature of a thing and its various features and mental constructs.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good.

[Speaker 2]
And K2J says that they couldn't express the words, much less the meaning of the words. He was really on a roll.

[Speaker 3]
I guess he was right.

[Speaker 2]
So, what simile did K2J use to underscore just how challenging people of his time found Jason Kappa's essence of eloquence, which, as we know, includes discussion about Miami and Lower Middle Way? Do you remember this? There were a lot of there were metaphors and there were similes.

So, this is related to the people of that time and shall I say their attempts to understand what Jason Kappa was talking about.

[Speaker 3]
Uh, captains of ships that were on the right track.

[Speaker 2]
That was a metaphor he talked about, but it's not about Jason Kappa and what he wrote. There was another one and it's a thing that actually Geshe Michael likes to talk about quite a bit. It's not a pen, not a pen, not a pen.

[Speaker 3]
Oscar says babies.

[Speaker 2]
Not a baby. So, um, because people are so feeble-minded, they're not able to make the slightest opening into understanding Jason Kappa's words, which for them are as unbreakable as a diamond.

[Speaker 3]
Unbreakable as a baby.

[Speaker 2]
Tibetan vocabulary. Again, we're going to do a mix. Can someone please give me the Tibetan for it?

Listen up. It's something you do.

[Speaker 1]
I'm pretty sure word got it right.

[Speaker 2]
What's this thing? No, that's.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, he says nawa something?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, nawalak.

[Speaker 1]
Oh. Nawa blags.

[Speaker 2]
Or blags, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Turn your ears. This is really good. I like that.

[Speaker 2]
Does that have an English equivalent?

[Speaker 1]
Mmm, tough, tough, tough. Hold on to the rudder of examination or something. Something about a rudder.

Nice.

[Speaker 2]
Very good. Hold the tiller of thorough investigation. And now, what is the Tibetan for a sea captain of intellect?

Yeah, word.

[Speaker 1]
Wow. What font are you using for your English letters? I like that.

[Speaker 3]
The sea captain of intellect himself.

[Speaker 1]
That's not Hemingway?

[Speaker 2]
No, it's by Michael Peter Ancher. Now I'm going to share my translation attempt.

[Speaker 1]
Less boogers. No, but it's really good, I have to say. All right.

[Speaker 2]
Can you see okay?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. People use it as an excuse that they have grasped just that much. And it refers back to the last sentence, okay?

And then they say one of these two kinds of selflessness is the position of a sangha. And then the next section says the other kinds of this selflessness is the position of Dignaga and Dharmakirti, okay? And...

Sorry. We had really spicy mapo tofu. Yeah, so there's going to be two kinds of lack of self-nature presented here.

It's two of the kinds that we've been talking about. Some people... Let's go to the very end here.

Okay? Yeah, which is... Tom sometimes means blah blah, okay?

So it means... How would you say that in a literary way?

[Speaker 2]
I said expressed, but...

[Speaker 1]
Tongya Chungwa means... Yeah, it's too narrow in scope, but it is just talk. It means just talk, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Lip service?

[Speaker 1]
Almost lip, yeah. So Tom is always verbal. And it's always talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

The whole phrase together just means... It's just... No, it's a position expressed in Section 247 and 248, okay?

The position starts in 247, and the position is concluded in 248. 247 says that one of the kinds of no self-nature... Let's call it emptiness for convenience, but it's not.

One of the kinds of emptiness we've been talking about is in fact a sangha system. And the more simple flavor of emptiness that we've been talking about is not even a mind-only school thing. It belongs to Dignanga and Dharmakirti, okay?

So what's the easier emptiness we're talking about? What's the blue thing? Okay, that's the easier kind of...

So let's go to 248 first, okay? wang shi la dukpay sung dzin zhe shen This is a kind of gaccha, okay? Sung dzin zhe shen is a gaccha, okay?

What is it, Utpala?

[Speaker 2]
It is that the perceiver and the thing perceived are substantially different.

[Speaker 1]
The perceiver and the thing it perceives are not made of the same stuff. And every Buddhist school thinks that, except the mind-only. Today we say that's a mind-only thing, right?

The object is made of the mind. It's not outside of the mind. You are watching an object in the refrigerator of the kunshi.

When you see blue, you're actually seeing a blue coming out of a karmic seed in your foundation consciousness. You are not watching a blue on the outside, okay? Now, this gaccha, he's trying to distinguish that more understandable version of emptiness from the deeper one that K.W.J. accuses everyone of not appreciating. Which is that a fire and its kyepar, meaning its characteristics, like heat, that the connection between them is natural. And the emptiness means the connection between them is not natural. It's coming somehow from us, or something like that, okay?

It's not rang gi tsen gyi dupa. It's not rang gi tsen gyi dupa. The connection between heat and fire is coming from us.

It's not coming from the fire, okay? So your kachig guy, it's very beautiful that you have these two sections, because this is an opinion being expressed by another school. Another guy comes along and says, Okay, K.W.J., I agree that there's a kind of emptiness where blue is empty of being an outside object. And I agree that there's another kind of emptiness where fire doesn't have heat. The connection between fire and heat is kun tar. It's a construct.

It's not natural. I agree there's these two flavors of emptiness, but it's not true that they are two flavors of mind-only state of emptiness. The easier one belongs to the school below.

It belongs to Dignaga and Dharmakirti, okay? That thing about the blue, that belongs to Choglang and Chodron, okay? And the deeper version you're talking about, where fire is not hot, or the connection between fire and heat is not natural, okay?

That's Arya Sangha's position, okay? And by the way, I mean, I would challenge you guys. That viewpoint about fire and heat, to me, I don't see much difference between that and Madhyamika.

I don't see any big difference between that and Madhyamika. Madhyamika would say, you know, the Gakja is that there's a natural connection between your husband's irritating nature and him, you know? Okay, so I would challenge you guys.

That seems pretty close to me, to Middle Way. And maybe that's why Tsongkhapa said, in a famous quotation recently, what, do you remember? About the mind-only school?

[Speaker 2]
You can use it to practice Vajrayana?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, he said if you really understand the mind-only school, you could use that understanding to practice the secret teachings. It would be sufficient. So maybe it's close enough, okay?

Anyway, trying to make a clean split, oh, that thing about blue, that's not even a mind-only school thing. That's a second school thing. That's a logic school thing.

And the thing you're selling, Khenpoche, as a deeper mind-only viewpoint, is actually their only viewpoint. Got it? Okay?

Okay? It's tough. It's tough, but it's beautiful.

All right, here we go. Where are you? Where did your father go?

Uh, hang on, I gotta go get this.

[Speaker 3]
Was he saying it was healthy to practice that mind-only view, but from a Prasangika viewpoint? Maybe, but I don't know what the difference would be, personally. Because, I don't know, the moment there's a problem with the object out there, you'll have a problem, I guess.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, where are you? Okay, I'm gonna do this.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I see it.

[Speaker 1]
You do?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's right on top.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, here we go. Come on, you guys. Okay, so he says, so the implication here is that Master Asanga would not accept which one of these emptinesses.

[Speaker 2]
Uh, the second one?

[Speaker 1]
The blue thing. Let's call it the blue thing.

[Speaker 2]
The blue thing.

[Speaker 1]
If this guy is correct, then that's Dignaga and Dharmakirti's thing. And then the thing about fire is Asanga's thing. And we say, RGYAL CHUNG BA'I DTAM You know, you're not thinking big enough.

You're not thinking big enough, okay? And I think what he means is, maybe Asanga had two kinds of emptiness in mind. Okay, don't say he has to have one and they have to have one, okay?

And here's what K.W.J. uses to prove it. And, Ali, do you want to critique this one? Can you just sit?

Yal, if she makes a mistake. Make a mistake, Rupaul, come on.

[Speaker 2]
ROL BPUNG PHAG PA THOG MED GYI THAG TU GSOD Nice, yay! DE LA KUN THAG PA'I TZAM ID GANG NA BYAS NA GZHAN GANG SDOD MED KYANG RNAMS PAR RIG PA TZAM RIG PA TZAM RGYUD NYID DU DANG BA DANG NYIN PA'O Not bad.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so if it's true that the idea about blue not being an outside object and actually being part of your mind it doesn't belong to a sangha, it belongs to Dharmakirti and Vijnanaga, then how about the following book written by a sangha called Mahayana Sangha which we spent a lot of time with. What is the zinni of kunta?

[Speaker 2]
What is the, what characteristic of concept or would it be?

[Speaker 1]
And now I want to remind you, Master Sangha is not asking what's the description of the concept construct. Okay, he's not saying that. He's saying what's the real meaning among the three zinnis expressed in what I really meant.

The one called GZHAN DBANG, YONG GRUB, and KUNTA. You see, those are called the zinni sum, right? Those are called the three qualities of the mind-only school.

Okay, so Arya Sangha says, when Lord Buddha in the third turning of the wheel mentioned three qualities, and one of them was the quality of being a construct, okay, imaginary object, what was he talking about? Okay, don't forget we got to tie back to the three qualities of the mind-only school, which is where your text thousands of years ago was talking about. Okay, and the sangha's opinion is, whenever something outside is not the Dön, It's not the meaning.

No, it's not.

[Speaker 2]
No, not the object.

[Speaker 1]
It's not the object of perception. It's only NAM PAR RIG PA.

[Speaker 2]
It's only mind.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's only mind. In fact, that sentence could be so famous as to...

[Speaker 2]
Name a school after it.

[Speaker 1]
Name a school after it. Okay, when there's a thing out there which is not really there, it's just part of your mind, but it's not as a Dön. But it appears as an object.

Yeah, it appears as an outside object, and there's a very helpful de here in that chen gyur, which Kiru-ji didn't add. It's a small word. NAM PAR RIG PA TZAM TE.

That thing which is only That thing which is only mind is appearing as if it were the object itself. Okay, good. I think the de is very crucial, and I would have added it.

But we have to say that it's possible that this translation wasn't available to Kiru-ji. But it's a good footnote. Yeah, it's a sexy footnote.

Okay, so here's where we blow up his position completely that Master Sangha didn't hold the idea that outside objects were just your mind.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, ZHES SOGS KYIS ZHES SOGS KYIS DBANG ZHES LA PHYI ROL BDUN DU NANG BA LTAR PHYI ROL BDUN DU MED PAR MED PAR DAM BYAS NAS DE GRUB PA LA SA CHUG PA'I LTOS DANG SDONG DGRA LA SOGS PA'I LUNG DANG Yeah, so ZHES SOGS KYIS means, I'm not going to give you the whole quotation from...

[Speaker 1]
And by the way, a Sangha, he's defining the three qualities, you see here, in his quotation. What is Shen Wang? What is KUN LTAR?

What is YONG DU? He's going through the three qualities of the mind on this So, our commentator, Kedar Jai says, to your DBANG ZHES, to your five DBANG ZHES, yeah, to your five sense awarenesses, of visible things, hearable things, smellable things, tasteable things, and touchable things, PHYI ROL BDUN DU NANG BA LTAR, that which appears to be a

[Speaker 2]
outer object, external object, is PHYI ROL BDUN DU MED, is not, yeah, there is no outer object.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it doesn't exist as an outer object. The thing that seems to be an outer object is not an outer object. DAM BYAS PA means DAM BYA BA.

That's a Sangha's position. He's expressing that position. DAM BYA BA means to take a position, right?

And when a Sangha wants to prove that that's his position, he goes deeper and further and quotes, he mentions two of the scriptures he quotes.

[Speaker 2]
SA CHUG PA'I RDOG, the Sutra on the Bhumis?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, on the ten Bodhisattva levels, okay? The Sutra on the ten Bodhisattva levels. And he quotes RDOG DE GONG BRAL.

[Speaker 2]
What I really meant.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, what I really meant, etc. So not only, don't tell me this is not his position. He states it, and then he quotes a lot of books to prove it, okay?

Now if you're a mixed nut, let's go look for those quotations.

[Speaker 2]
So Geshe-la, when he says LUNG here...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, he quotes scripture as opposed to RIG PA. As opposed to RIG PA, okay? He quotes real scripture.

And if it wasn't his position, if it was Dignaga's position or Dharmakirti's position, why would a Sangha go into such detail as to dig up a bunch of sutras to prove it? Got it? Right.

All right, and I thought you'd like to see some of this material. This is the Mahayana Sangha of Master Asanga.

[Speaker 2]
Master Asanga.

[Speaker 1]
This is probably the book we're talking about. Let's go see if he quotes what?

[Speaker 2]
If he quotes the ten bodhisattva levels.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the sutra of the ten levels. Or if he quotes...

[Speaker 2]
Of what I really meant.

[Speaker 1]
With regard to the non-existence of...

[Speaker 2]
Outer objects.

[Speaker 1]
Nice. Beautiful. And this is a long...

[Speaker 2]
You searched for me.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I got it for you. Where is the chi roll? Usually I make it big for you just to make things easier.

[Speaker 2]
It looks like it's... Nope.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
There's only one chi. It's in the end of the second paragraph.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. It is all nothing more than mind. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay, cool.

[Speaker 1]
And I'm going to show you why that's coming from these sutras, okay? Okay. Here's Vasubandhu writing a commentary on what?

His brother's book.

[Speaker 2]
Asanga.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. The book we just looked at, his half-brother wrote a commentary on it. Vasubandhu wrote a commentary on it, okay?

And he says the fact that these are... Let's read this together, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
I'm sorry it's kind of messy, but...

[Speaker 2]
I'm sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Translate that.

[Speaker 2]
These... These... Something.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
The mind only.

[Speaker 1]
These outer objects, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay. These outer objects are mind only is a quote from the Sutra on the Ten Levels.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. The idea that these outer objects are really just your consciousness is stated in the Sutra on the Ten Levels. And...

[Speaker 2]
And... GONG PA NGES PAR DRAL PA'I DROD LAS KYANG NAM PAR BSHAD PA NI MIG PA NAM PAR RIG PA SANG GI YI RAB TU CHEN BA CHEN NO ZHES NGES ZHES DOR ZHES SUNG PA DE NA Yeah. Okay.

And so on and so forth. What's that say? Well, now we're talking about what I really meant.

And there the subject is the sense... Oh, no, the mental consciousness.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
MIG PA NAM PAR RIG PA SANG is... Okay, so the eyes... Yeah.

Where's the bird? No, CHEN NO, CHE BA, they hold the object.

[Speaker 1]
NGES ZHES DOR means what I say. What I really want to say in my third turning, okay, is what? Is that the objects you see in the world are really just split off from consciousness.

CHE BA, CHEN, okay? They're really just pieces of your own consciousness that you are looking at. CHE BA, CHEN, okay?

These MIG PAs, these objects that you see in the world, what is the nature of consciousness? You see objects, but those objects are actually just little pieces of your awareness. Okay?

That's what I wanted to say. Who's saying that?

[Speaker 2]
Lord Buddha.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's what I meant in the second turning, okay? I didn't mean nothing existed by its own nature. I wouldn't say that.

Okay, got it, okay.

[Speaker 2]
But that's what he really meant when he was speaking to mind-only folks.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, good. Yeah, I didn't mean to say that. I enjoy taking the third wheel as a confirmation of Nagarjuna, but that's another story.

So anyway, I think that's what Prakapas says. So what have I supplied you here?

[Speaker 2]
Well, you supplied me with his brother quoting two sutras.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Do we want to find them in those sutras, though?

[Speaker 1]
Well, first, let's look at the... We were reading... That guy said Arya Sangha's idea was only about the fire and not about the blue, right?

Right, yeah. And then we said, come on. He quotes the Sutra of the Ten Levels, and he quotes the Sutra of the Heavenly Men, and he pulls out this idea about the blue from there.

And it's in his Mahayana Sangraha, and that's confirmed by his brother. Okay, got it?

[Speaker 2]
He wrote a commentary on the Mahayana Sangraha.

[Speaker 1]
Now, if you're a real mixed-up...

[Speaker 2]
A mixed-up mixed-up?

[Speaker 1]
You go confirm...

[Speaker 2]
Vasubandhu, I guess.

[Speaker 1]
...that these two quotations are in the Sutra on the Ten Levels, and are in the Sutra called What I Really Meant. So grandpa, of course, because we have the gold clubs, which create the money to feed John Brady and his wife, and DCI, by the way, who pays a lot to ALL, which is one of ALL's, maybe ALL's biggest sponsor, I have the database. I can use it, okay?

So, here's... Oops. Actually, I did not go and get those for you.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I didn't see them. I'm sorry. Maybe you had a different database.

[Speaker 1]
I could, and I would. Actually, maybe I did. Let me see.

[Speaker 2]
You did the...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I did the Ten Levels. Here's the one from the Ten Levels, okay? And what's it say?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, there it is.

[Speaker 1]
Here's the famous sentence from the Ten Levels.

[Speaker 2]
DIT THAR KHAMS GSUNGS PA NI NI SEMS SANGS TE It's like the three realms are mind-only.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, all the... When you say three realms in Buddhism, you're saying what?

[Speaker 2]
The whole universe.

[Speaker 1]
The whole universe is only mind. It's all just mind. Okay, got it?

Cool. Okay, so that's the... By the way, I want to help you guys with something in the future.

If you search the Kangyur, it's very hard to find this sutra, okay? Because it's not considered a sutra.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
Calling it a sutra is a nickname that developed by the Tibetans. It's actually like a chapter in a bigger work called the Avatamsaka. And that chapter is called RGYUD, the chapter on the Ten Levels.

So if you go looking in the Kangyur for SAT CHUG PAS DO, you will never find it. And I've been there. Okay?

And it's actually a chapter in another sutra. And it came, especially by Tsongkhapa, it came to be treated as a separate sutra in its own right. And I got the bibliography entry here for you.

Thank you. Because it's nasty. It's difficult, okay?

It's in here somewhere. Okay, so we proved it's in the Ten Levels, right? Yep.

Okay, and I should have... Oh, here's the SAT CHUG PAS DO bibliography entry, okay? Now, if you want the section from what I really meant, Grandpa got it for you here.

Let's read it together.

[Speaker 2]
GZUGS NYAN And this is paraphrased by Master Tsongkhapa, okay?

[Speaker 1]
In the Mahayana Sangraha. NAM MA SHES PA NI MED PA NAM BAR RIG PA TZAM GYI RAB TU CHE BA The objects you see in the world are just your consciousness expressing pieces of it outside of you, okay? Cool?

So, GZUGS NYAN NAM BAR RIG PA TZAM Everything is just your mind. You are watching a reflection of your mind when you see blue, okay? All right, cool.

Those are the quotations. Now, unfortunately, I have some quotation between there, which doesn't belong there, and I'm going to take it out. It's this one.

Now, something super sexy happens in your book, and I'm so glad we're going to hit it this time, just in case I get in a car accident on the way home or something.

[Speaker 2]
Jigme, I would like you to drive extremely carefully this evening.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, good. Now, here comes a quotation that KGFJ is using to support his position that this thing about objects being your own mind comes from a sangha, and not Dignaga and not Dharmakirti. And here's a quotation.

I don't want you to see what's under there. It's like my underwear. Okay.

$1,000, $1,000. What's this referring to?

[Speaker 2]
It's referring to when a hungry ghost and a divine being and a regular old...

[Speaker 1]
Couldn't you at least say...

[Speaker 2]
A glass of water and...

[Speaker 1]
Okay, $1,000 collected from my banker, okay? This is the one we used in... Gosh, it's so many places.

[Speaker 2]
We used it in emptiness meditation books. It's in there.

[Speaker 1]
What's the nickname of this section? Chumbap. Chumbap, yeah, the waterfall.

Meaning, how does a preta see a stream? Okay, $1,000. But at least translate it for the money, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay. So, we have our hungry ghosts and animals and humans.

[Speaker 1]
Good.

[Speaker 2]
And how are we translating...

[Speaker 1]
Let's say deva.

[Speaker 2]
But that's not really... I mean, that's Sanskrit.

[Speaker 1]
Temporarily, let's say deva.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, deva.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you for dinner. Deva nams... According to their...

[Speaker 2]
According to their... Their group or their...

[Speaker 1]
Their type of being? Yeah, type of being, among the six types or five types of beings. When they look at ngu chuk...

[Speaker 2]
When they look at a single object...

[Speaker 1]
When they look at a single object, their minds make it thade.

[Speaker 2]
Different.

[Speaker 1]
Therefore, that outer object madrup.

[Speaker 2]
Therefore, that outer object doesn't exist.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's not real. And that's what we say. That's what we say.

Okay? Now, the big question is, whose quotation is this?

[Speaker 2]
Right, that's a good question. Hmm. Is it real?

Do we want to see? Is it real?

[Speaker 1]
Who wrote the Pahayana Sangraha?

[Speaker 2]
Arya Sangha.

[Speaker 1]
Aha, there it is. Okay. And he says, let me put it in a poem for you.

Six chepa. yi da du rung mi nang dang, ha nam chik tok ri rik su, wo juk yi ni thade jik, du ma du pa du pa, yeah. Okay?

So don't give me this crap about, that's not...

[Speaker 2]
That's not part of the Asanga system.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's not Asanga talking.

[Speaker 2]
I mean, would he spend the time to write a poem if that wasn't in his system?

[Speaker 1]
Good, okay? Good, good, good. This is a Keydrupian destruction of an opponent, by the way.

[Speaker 2]
He's very good at it. Finally, he's getting to destroy.

[Speaker 1]
He's heating up a little bit. You know, there's some explanations of that verse. There's a beautiful explanation by Tsongkhapa in his difficult points on foundation consciousness, which may be familiar to some people.

[Speaker 2]
Gosh, you know, I've kind of heard of that one.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and he has a nice commentary on this verse. And Kedrup Denpa Dage, who's our Sarah May textbook writer, he has, of course, which is where I took the ACI class from, he has a beautiful... He uses from tektu from Mahayana Sangraha, and he has a beautiful presentation, which is ACI, whatever it is.

Don't ask. Never, never come up to Geshe-la and say, I want to ask you a question about ACI 7 or something, because I have no memory of what the subjects were. But there it is.

If you're interested, if anyone wants to read the whole thing, there are two great commentaries on this poem, one by Tsongkhapa, which we will hit eventually in... Word's Book. Word's Book, because that is Word's Book.

And if you're interested, you can go read the ACI course. Okay. Please read this long sentence.

Oh, wait, I got to show something. You ready? Yep.

I just want to show you how the seeds, which have been there for time with no beginning, are affected by the words of the teacher and listening to them properly. Okay, you ready? She's listening to this class, and the natural seed in her of being a Buddha is being refreshed by the words of the teacher.

Just kids are more obvious about falling asleep than other people are. That's my beautiful granddaughter, Ava.

[Speaker 2]
Ava.

[Speaker 1]
Little Adam and... Okay, let's get back to the text, Grandpa. Grandpas get...

They get... What do you call it? Sentimental.

Okay, here you go. I think Kramer should have to read this with you.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, Kramer should read?

[Speaker 1]
No, I mean, you read it, Kramer. Grandpa Ava.

[Speaker 2]
Grandpa Ava.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. Sorry, I was distracted. I put you to sleep.

No, there's an excellent Mabudofo. I don't know, it probably was flown in from Guangzhou. Asanga used countless other arguments for the same point, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And even though the yul is not a qi dun...

[Speaker 2]
Even though the object is not an outer object...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yul chen gyi shepa. The state of mind which holds it to be an outer object, or holds the yul.

The state of mind which holds to the object, even though the object is not an outer real thing, the state of mind is still denpa dupa.

[Speaker 2]
It still thinks it's real.

[Speaker 1]
No, it is denpa dupa. Yeah. It is denpa dupa.

And now, by the way, we're getting into Dharmakirti and Dignaga, okay? So he's shifting now to...

[Speaker 2]
Oh, oh, oh.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, look, the outer object is not real, but the mind which perceives it, in the second school, is denpa dupa. It functions. It's real.

So in their school, denpa dupa means real, okay? The yul chen gyi shepa, the subject state of mind, is real, okay? And the example is a...

[Speaker 2]
It's a dream.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I mean, you have a subject and a dream. The dream's not real, but the subject is real, okay? What you see in the dream is not real, but you can't say there wasn't a state of mind in the dream, okay?

And rab rin chen gyi mik she, what's that?

[Speaker 2]
We're talking about rabbits.

[Speaker 1]
No, this is rab rin.

[Speaker 2]
Rab rin, oh, sorry. Sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, look, the eye may have a scratch on it, but that doesn't mean there's no subject, okay? All right. How about mikyu nangway shepa?

[Speaker 2]
What's a mikyu? So now we're talking about...

[Speaker 1]
What's a mikyu? A mirage.

[Speaker 2]
A mirage.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, a mirage in the distance as you're driving through Arizona. Okay? That's just your shepa nangway.

[Speaker 2]
That's just your mind?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Showing an appearance? An appearance in your mind?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. When you see water in the distance when you're driving your car, that water has no external reality, but it does have some kind of reality inside your mind. So there is the yul chen, the subject state of mind, is tenpa drupa.

It's real, okay? The perceptor, perceiver, is real. The mirage is not real.

We all know. But there's got to be a state of mind behind there somewhere, or you wouldn't see it. Okay, got it?

And how about gyu mei ta lang?

[Speaker 2]
Now we got our horses and elephants, magical horses and elephants. In a magic show? Do we want to say that?

[Speaker 1]
Some guy throws down a stick and turns it into an elephant. But still, the shape is there.

[Speaker 2]
Still, it appears in the mind.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, there is a mind in which that is appearing. Okay, and that's real. Now the next one is a tough one.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. So now we've got meditating on ugly things.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good. And does anybody... Can you describe this meditation?

Very famous.

[Speaker 2]
Well, it's when monks, to keep their desire down, they meditate on women as being ugly.

[Speaker 1]
You can say that, but there's another version where you... Charnel ground, yeah. We actually start with a piece of rock in the middle of your forehead.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 1]
And then you expand it to your heart.

[Speaker 2]
Right, right, right.

[Speaker 1]
And then to your house. And then to the east coast and the west coast.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
And then it all looks like nuclear bomb or Ukraine.

[Speaker 2]
Where does that come from?

[Speaker 1]
Terminator. It's Abhidharma.

[Speaker 2]
It's Abhidharma, okay.

[Speaker 1]
By the way, when you are meditating and trying to perceive your city as nuked out, is that a real object?

[Speaker 2]
That is an object of the mind, yes.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's just an imaginary object, but the mind is real. The meditation mind is real. ,DE NGES ZIN GYI SNANG BA SOG, DU MA GOS NAS There are many.

Yeah, you could set forth countless examples. ,GYIS PA'I DU PAS BSGOM NAS And I guess he's talking about Asanga's Bhumi books, which are massive. He probably mentioned all of these in his Bhumi books, okay.

[Speaker 2]
Are we going to go find them?

[Speaker 1]
I don't know. That's kind of ambitious, but if you're in the mood, you can try. It wouldn't be hard.

It wouldn't be particularly hard. It would make a massive footnote. Sometimes it's so massive, it may be distracting to the reader, but if you're up for it, I can help you.

[Speaker 2]
But if we've moved on from Asanga to talking about logic school...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I've had these been... Yeah, okay. ,DGONG NAS DBANG ZHES LA THOB PAS Relative to a sense power, ,GSUM RDZIN ZAD GZHAN The object and the subject appear to be...

[Speaker 2]
The same stuff.

[Speaker 1]
No, ZAD GZHAN, separate stuff.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, sorry, separate stuff.

[Speaker 1]
That's the Gagja. That's the Gagja, okay. A subject and an object which are made of separate stuff.

That's Gagja in the mind-only school, or somebody's school. And CI DON DGOS PA When we deny...

[Speaker 2]
Outer objects.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you can prove it with lung, and you can prove it with rigpa.

[Speaker 2]
You can prove it with scripture, and you can prove it with logic.

[Speaker 1]
And it was done extensively in two books called ,TZAM MA RNAM DROD ,and ,TZAM MA RNAM NGES Yeah, it was two books that were Ben's books. Yeah, they're Dharmakirti. They're in Master Dharmakirti.

So what's our guy saying now? What's Khenpoje saying now? He said, look, saying...

[Speaker 2]
Oh, so he's agreeing with him that, yeah, the logic school did talk about denying outer objects.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and by the way, I don't blame you for being wrong. Because Dignaga and Dharmakirti did talk a lot about illusory outer objects. They spent page after page on it.

Probably all of these examples are in either ,TZAM MA RNAM DROD or ,TZAM MA RNAM NGES ,RGYAS PA'I PHYIR He used logic, he used reasoning, he used examples to deny outer objects. Moreover, you want to go deeper?

[Speaker 2]
Yes!

[Speaker 1]
Okay, here we go.

[Speaker 2]
Moreover... ,CHOG KYI LAM PO'I RGYAS PA'I PHYIR, ,NO BO DANG BSKYED PAR DU, ,THAG PA RANG GI RTZEN GYI GYI DRUG PA, ,GANG ZHIG PA'I PHYIR, ,CHOG KYI BDAG MED ZHES ZHIN GYIS ,MA BDUN BDUN DREL TSUL TEG DU, ,JI LTA BA ZHIN DU, ,GSAL BAR ZHIG PA'I PHYIR RO Yeah, now this is awesome. ,CHOG KYI LAM PO'I Dignaga Yeah, right.

[Speaker 1]
Dignaga, he wrote a short commentary on Getomba.

[Speaker 2]
On the 8,000 verses.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and here it is. It's two folios.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, that is short.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, a brief presentation on the perfection of wisdom. And in that tiny little book, he described the concept of ,NO BO DANG BSKYED PAR DU, ,THAG PA He described the concept of the essence and the features being imputed. Yeah, an imputed connection between the fire and its heat.

This THAG PA is not breath THAG PA. This is not the breath THAG PA we've had so far.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
About KUN THAG, this is not the word KUN THAG. This is the word THAG PA meaning an artificial connection. And it's related to DOG, which means to assign a nickname.

Okay, so... Yeah, he talks about this thing about the fire, and he says that connection, ,THAG PA RANG GI TSE NAS KYI GRUB PA RGAG, it refutes that it exists by definition. Not only that, he says, that's what the Sherchen says, it's CHUG GI DAG ME.

[Speaker 2]
That's what the perfection of wisdom says, it's the lack of a self-nature to things.

[Speaker 1]
And if you don't believe me that Dignaga was talking about fire and heat, you go look at the goddamn Asangas Mahayana Sangraha, which clearly says that he did. Okay, got it? Selwar Shetri.

Selwar. Who says this is Dignaga's position? Sangraha.

You're saying that was Asanga's position and not Dignaga's position. But Asanga said it was Dignaga's position. Duh.

Okay, got it? Yep. God, Kenji, you're so cool.

[Speaker 2]
I think we're at time, Geshe-la, aren't we?

[Speaker 1]
Yes, yes we are.

[Speaker 2]
I'm very sad to say that that's...

[Speaker 1]
Okay, there's the section if you want to know. We'll get to it next time.

[Speaker 2]
And what would you like me to do for next time, speaker?

[Speaker 1]
Let me make a mark here so I don't forget where we stopped. Stopped here.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, so we're going to talk about these?

[Speaker 1]
Well, let's see if it's worth talking about. That's too hard. Let me see here.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, anything longer than five lines, you know?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I mean, this is a whole book in it. This is something that we already covered, and he just brings it up again.

[Speaker 2]
These are all long.

[Speaker 1]
Ooh.

[Speaker 2]
It was the best of times. It was the best of times. Okay, those are all books.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I want you to try section 256, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okie doke.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and, you know, good luck. You probably have to start during the next class.

[Speaker 2]
What do you mean, have to start during the next class?

[Speaker 1]
To finish it in four days.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I see, I see. I thought I got two days off. I guess not.

[Speaker 1]
Who gets a day off in this organization? Give me a break.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I know. I should know that by now.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay, good. Great text, great work, Utpala.

[Speaker 2]
I wish you all the sushi in all the universes.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, wait, I got an important thing, Utpala, wait. Read the excellent Mabudofu.

[Speaker 2]
Oh.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, boy.

[Speaker 1]
This is a prediction for your book. A mole. This is a prediction for your book, okay?

I hope it's not, like, something really dumb. Learn Chinese.

[Speaker 2]
You will meet an interesting person.

[Speaker 1]
Let's see here. When you get to my age, you need your phone to read these things. Okay.

It says, believe it can be done. That's a good one. Especially for that paragraph, that's timely.

All right, we'll see you guys in two minutes or something. Yeah, we have seven minutes. Wow.

That's a long, leisurely seven-minute break. See you guys then. Thank you, Geshe-la.

Thank you so much for that amazing presentation. Believe it can be done. Believe it can be done.