Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 25

[Speaker 1]
Okay, grandpa's going back to work. Where's the next victim? Utpala, you ready?

I think she fell. You're supposed to fall asleep after your text. Utpala, come home.

Hi Geshe-la. Hi, welcome back. Thank you.

All right, here we go. Oh, we're taking off in this jet airplane. We finished this text.

This is you, right? I think. Yeah.

Okay, here we go. All right. Welcome back to Venerable Utpala's book.

Do you want to tell us a little bit about your book? Yeah, so this is a book by K. Drupche.

And although it's called Interlude on Emptiness, which sort of implies that it's a short thing, break between two things, it's actually quite an extensive text on the nature of reality. And he starts off talking about, well, you know, we have to see the nature of reality directly in order to get out of this cycle of suffering. But we should know, because the Buddha taught different things, we should know when he was, you know, which of his teachings we should consider before we sit down to meditate as being the truth, if you will, about the truth of reality.

And so we've gone into this. He says we're going to talk about two things. We're going to talk about the way that Master Asanga and Master Vasubandhu talk about what's figurative and what's literal with regard to the Buddhist teachings.

And then we're going to talk about what Arya Nagarjuna said about that. So we're in the midst of what appears right now to be a very long discussion about the mind only position on this. But if we look at the whole book, it's really only a little bit.

But anyway, we're in the midst of it. So here we are. Good.

Nice, nice summary. Okay. We're making pretty good progress.

And I think you could be ready in about a year to publish your first book. Okay, and I think we're going to split this up into five books. And we actually found a place here.

This is a great place to end the first book. So this is down at page something. It's page 30.

So you're going to have a good-sized book, about a 400-page book, in about a year. Yep. And that's...

By the way, your book has sold... Turn off all the kids. Venerable Udpala's book on emptiness meditations has sold...

Aiyah! Sold the most of any nuns' book yet. 600 copies.

Amazing. Very good. All right.

Yeah, and created 600 confused people. Yay! Okay.

But no, the sales are quite brisk for Mixed Nuts book. All right. Let's start reading, okay?

Reading more than five is really quite amazing. Yeah. GONG ZHIG means...

GONG ZHIG means the thing that we have to talk about what did the Buddha mean. So ZHIG means what do we have to talk about when we're trying to figure out what he really meant. And what we need to figure out what he was thinking about, was when he talked about the three kinds of no-self nature.

It's called NGO NYID MED TSUL GSUM. So, what did Buddha have in mind when he said nothing existed? He was thinking about three different ways in which things don't have any nature of their own.

We referred to that in works such as What I Really Meant, the Sutra. We talked about it previously to this section. DA, if it's correct spelling, I'm not sure.

We got to check. DA means let's talk about it. Let's talk about the three ways in which things have no nature of their own, which is supposedly what the Buddha really meant.

I referred to it before, but let's try to dig into it a little bit. Here's the quotation that we're working with. I think it's Arya Sangha.

Here are the three kinds of no-nature. SEMS NYID NGO NYID MED PA SKYE BA NGO NYID MED PA and DON DRAG PA NGO NYID MED PA Let's do it this way. SEMS NYID NGO NYID MED PA Oh, I can't get it to this.

Maybe I can. Let me see. Yeah, okay.

We got SEMS NYID NGO NYID MED PA Let's do it bigger. Then we got SKYE BA NGO NYID MED PA Then we got DON DRAG PA NGO NYID MED PA He wants to talk about these three kinds of no-self nature. The first one means some things have no self nature of having any defining characteristics.

If you want to put it in the kitchen, that's the husband who didn't come from me, which is kind of the no-self nature of emptiness. Then we got the no-self nature of things starting, which is when the husband starts to yell. Then we got the no-self nature of the sum of the equation.

Subtract the husband who's not in the kitchen, and the absence of the husband who doesn't come from me. All right. Please read 207.

Can I ask a quick question? Yes, please. Before, we've been talking about SEMI as mental constructs, not defining characteristics.

I'm just curious. I'm not saying we shouldn't. I'm just curious about the change.

Let's just go as we go. By the way, this is talking about the three... It's actually talking about the three tsenis of the mind-only school, which is nominal things, things that are under the control of other things, and the result of the equation, which is emptiness.

But we'll get there. Okay. 207, please read.

I think Dr. Kramer wanted to check here. What's LHAG PA GSUM?

[Speaker 2]
The three trainings.

[Speaker 1]
The three trainings of morality, concentration, and wisdom. Yeah, and here it just means, look, there's some people in the world who didn't get any training. They want to say, they try to explain the Abhidharma Samuccaya of a sangha.

They try to explain a sangha's book in light of the six books on the reasoning of the Middle Way by Nagarjuna. They try to say that those two books have a common line somewhere. The presentation of the mind-only school, classic presentation of the mind-only school by a sangha, in his book, which is called Higher Abhidharma, and then the six books on reasoning by Nagarjuna, the reasoning of the Middle Way.

By the way, the rikts of Druk's full name, okay, this is for Nick, they called the six books on logic, the full name is DONG PA GNYIS GRUB PAS RIGS PA. Oh, the six books that are using logic to prove emptiness. Exactly, that's the full name.

I think sometimes you might want to slide that in there. Otherwise, Nagarjuna sounds like a logician, and that's not the point. It's not the six books on logic, it's the six books on proving emptiness.

Yeah, okay. So, TUM PA MA LA means, they're trying to interpret a sangha's work in light of Nagarjuna's work, okay? And people who talk like that, CHA MED means, they don't know what they're talking about.

It means no part, but it's an idiom in colloquial Tibetan for those people, they're clueless. They don't have a part. And CHUNG RGYAL is another idiom that means they just blurt out whatever comes to mind.

Anyone who interprets a sangha's master compendium on the mind-only to Nagarjuna's works don't know what they're talking about. Okay, got it? Keep going.

And who's checking you? You want to pick somebody? Venerable Chinzum.

Yay, Chinzum, let's go. But I just wanted to say that's the first easy sentence in the entire book so far. Anyway, I'm just rejoicing a little bit before we go on.

Well, he did throw in two rare idioms. That's true. And had you not been here, it would not have been the easiest sentence.

Thank you very much. If you didn't have a colloquial speaker here, you would translate those in some other way, and it would be really strange. And that's the definition of university translation.

Okay, Shenyang. Shenyang. Nice.

[Speaker 2]
You're reading it.

[Speaker 1]
She's getting it. Okay. So he starts to list some books.

He says Shenyang means, moreover, we can take the Dōgōngdō, which is what? The sutra on what I really meant, right? Good, yeah.

And deceptively, it's called a delpa. Deceptively, it's called a commentary, but it's not. It's a Buddha commentary on the Buddha.

Then that denpa duwa, the brief presentation or something. Like a summary, we call it, or something? Yeah, you could say the brief presentation or something like that.

Then Changsha, which is Bodhisattva Bumi, the levels of the Bodhisattva. Levels. Take Dö, Mahayana Sangraha, the great collection of the middle, of the greater way.

And then, Ngumba Kundu, the Abhidharma Samuccaya, the companion of Abhidharma. All of them quote the same sutra. All of them.

The original sutra, and four commentaries by Arya Sangha, they all quote the same sutra. And that sutra says, CHOS THAMS CAD MA RGYAS PA MA RGAGS PA GSOS MA NAS ZHI BA RANG BZHIN GYIS MYONG NGAN SEMS MYONG NGAN MA'I DE PA Very, very famous. All the things in the universe are MA RGYAS PA.

Don't start. They never started. And MA RGAGS PA.

And they never stop. And GSOS MA NAS ZHI BA. Tough.

It's a tough question. No, not in peace. They have been peace from the beginning.

Oh, peace from the beginning. Peace for time with no beginning. Okay?

And RANG BZHIN GYIS MYONG SEMS MYONG NGAN MA'I DE PA By nature, they are By nature, they are beyond total They are total nirvana. Okay? So here's what the sutra said.

All the things in the universe, okay? None of them ever started. None of them ever stopped.

They have been at peace for time with no beginning. And their nature is total nirvana. Okay?

Yeah. Okay. Now, in the Third Turning of the Wheel, and in those four books by Arya Sangha, this quotation is said to be GONG PA CHEN, which is CHANG DUN.

They have the true meaning? They don't say what they mean. Okay?

GONG PA CHEN means you have to interpret it. Okay? And DEM PO is the word that means rubber.

Okay? Like, you know, you got to bend it to get it right. Okay?

You have to interpret this stuff. Okay? The sutra itself, the Third Turning of the Wheel, and these four great books by Arya Sangha, they all said these words are not...

Literal. Literal. You got to interpret them.

You got to twist them around to get at what they really mean. Okay? Therefore, how can you claim this is UME LUG?

How can you claim that this is the Middle Way system? Yeah, who talks about no self-nature. Okay?

How can you... How the heck... Oops.

How the heck can you say in the last paragraph, okay, that there's some meeting place between the Arya Sangha and the Garjuna? Okay, got it? How can you claim just blah blah without any evidence at all that Asanga and the Garjuna meet somewhere?

Why do you say that? Well, Asanga spent his whole career quoting the Third Turning of the Wheel, okay, and saying that these statements about nothing exists were not literal. Okay?

So how can you say there's a place where he meets Arya and the Garjuna? Okay, good. Keep reading.

Stanley wants to check you. I saw him. I'm very suspicious when people put a picture up.

I think he's out having lunch somewhere. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Dode Gongrel, that Sutra by the Buddha in the Third Turning of the Wheel, it also talks about nyen tu shiwa drubpa chok chikpa. Okay?

Nyen tu shiwa drubpa chok chikpa. What's a nyen tu? That's a listener.

Yeah, and it's implying here Hinayana, okay? Because they like to shiwa drubpa. Drubpa means journey.

Oh. Go to nirvana. They like to journey to their personal nirvana, okay?

I see. And they are very chok chik about it. Single-pointed.

Yeah, they're like single-mindedly focused on themselves, okay? And if all the sanghes in the universe... If all the Buddhists in the universe...

...tried with all their tsundru... ...with all their effort... ...to take them to the chang chuk yin yinwa...

...to take them to the essence of enlightenment... Yeah, which Choney Lama says is... Yeah.

It's not possible. Yeah, even if all the Buddhists in the universe tried with all their effort... ...if you took one of these selfish guys who's just interested in his own nirvana...

...and all those Buddhists tried with all their might... ...they could not get him full enlightenment. Well, if they tried with all their might, they couldn't get me there either...

...because it's my job, right? Here's the quotation. I went and got it for you from the sutra, okay?

Thank you. And he has quoted it correctly, okay? All right, here's a tough quotation.

Oh my gosh. Your book is tough. I thought it was going to be easier, but it's not.

No, it's not. Who do you want to suffer checking you? I would like...

Let me see here. I would like Christina Kasica. Who is it?

Christina Kasica. Oh yeah, we left her out so far. Okay, let's go Kasica.

Okay, go for it. Here's the second quotation. Wow, that's weird.

Okay. Yeah, this gets really sexy, as if it wasn't already. Khenapa Dua, this famous book by Arya Sangha, the middle...

Sorry, the mind-only dude, okay? Which is the brief presentation or something. When we talk about shiwa durpa nyantas...

When we talk about listeners who are traveling to their own nirvana, personal nirvana... Yeah, there's a couple problems with these guys. First thing, dambo nyi ne, their nying je is chungwa.

Oh, their compassion is very tiny. Minimal. Minimal.

From the very beginning, dambo nyi ne, okay? To start with, their compassion is very low. And that's the kind of people they are, rikchen, okay?

Secondly, they are not chokpa towards sem chen gyi dun. They aren't pointed at benefiting all beings. Yeah, single-mindedly, chik tu, okay?

Oh, chik tu is going over to chok? Yeah. Wow, okay.

Well, no, it means they are not... Yeah, you could say that. They are always not interested in what other people need, okay?

And their whole motivation is personal dungel jik. Yeah, their whole motivation is ending their own suffering. No, their jikpa, like jikme.

Oh, their own fear. Yeah, they're afraid of the suffering of life, okay? Therefore, they are only focused on nyang ngen le depa.

Yeah, on nirvana. And unfortunately, they don't have the kelwa to be interested in reaching chang juk chenpo. Yeah, they don't have the good fortune to reach enlightenment.

Yeah, to be interested in reaching enlightenment, okay? Okay, now comes a very profound conclusion by K. Dubje.

Shei Shepe, because of some, I think, dey dak gi luk la, in his system and his friend's system, hundred dollars, tar tu tekpa sung.

[Speaker 3]
All these paths go to the same place.

[Speaker 1]
No, you guys have to pay me. All roads lead to the same place. No, it's the opposite.

Yeah, all roads lead to three tracks, okay? All roads lead... And by the way, this is one of the sweetest teachings in Buddhism.

Tim's going to be reaching it some year. And it's that in the end, all spiritual paths in the world lead to the same place. Okay?

Tar tuk tekpa chik. Say, tar tuk, everybody? Tar tuk?

[Speaker 2]
Tar tuk.

[Speaker 1]
Tekpa chik.

[Speaker 3]
Tekpa chik.

[Speaker 1]
In the end, all people have the same capacity, and all people will reach the same goal. All spiritual paths lead to the same place. But if you interpret that sutra of the Buddha as saying, as there are hopelessly selfish people, then how many paths should there be?

Three. There must be three. The Hinayana path, sorry, the listener, the self-made Buddhas, and then the bodhisattvas.

Okay? In the end, those paths will never intersect because there are people who are helplessly selfish. Okay?

Got it? We had nyun me earlier today, or yesterday. Word...

I think it word happened. Oh, it's... Indisputable.

It was... yeah, right. Yeah, it's indisputable.

Nobody can claim that a sangha doesn't support the idea of three different... What do we call them? Vehicles or...

Tracks. Tracks, yeah. Nobody can say that a sangha doesn't say there's three tracks.

In the end, there's three tracks. Because he made this statement about these super selfish guys. It's indisputable.

Okay? Therefore, don't tell me that a sangha and... Arya Nagarjuna.

Arya Nagarjuna...

[Speaker 3]
Are talking about the same thing.

[Speaker 1]
...are on the same page. Okay? Don't tell me that.

Okay? Because Arya... What's the implication about Arya Nagarjuna?

That he thinks the same thing? No, he doesn't. No.

No, I'm sorry. The implication of what? Yeah.

He doesn't state here directly what Nagarjuna thinks. But he kept saying Nagarjuna doesn't agree with the sangha. Right, right, right.

So... What do you think Nagarjuna says? That there's...

that all paths lead to the... Yeah, Nagarjuna, our highest savior, says all spiritual paths lead to the same beautiful goal. Isn't that cool?

So don't give me this stuff about, you know, the two shall meet somewhere. They don't meet somewhere. Okay?

Except... I'll ask you. Did Arya...

Is Arya a sangha in Arya?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He is. And there's no Arya in the universe who didn't see emptiness through the Madhyamika Prasangika. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Oopsie.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh. And does Arya Nagarjuna accept that by following Arya a sangha you would come to realize what Arya Nagarjuna is thinking eventually?

[Speaker 1]
I love to... I love... I mean, one of my favorite things is to read the Third Turning of the Wheel according to Nagarjuna.

Okay. But anyway. All right, here we go.

Who's checking you, Udpala? Who's checking me now is Aisha. Ooh.

Kiri's boss. I mean, Kiri's employee.

[Speaker 3]
Aisha's...

[Speaker 1]
She's translating. Oh, she's translating. Is Inna here?

No, she's sleeping.

[Speaker 3]
Sleeping.

[Speaker 1]
Let's see. I would like Ella to... Ella, can you do that?

Okay. Yeah, good. What again?

Oh, is this going to be an however or... Well, it's a moreover. A moreover, okay.

He's quoting Dodegangdo. Yep, what I really meant. Yeah, he's quoting the same sutra.

And he says... And Lord Buddha says to Jampa, says to Manjushri, Hey Manjushri. As far as their number to elude.

As far as... The body they get when they... Oh, when they become free.

Yeah. Which I would guess is the Tathagatagarbha. Okay.

Their Buddha nature. As far as the body of their freedom. The Deishasekpas and the Nyantas are tsung.

The... The conquerors and... And the self-super-selfish listener tribe guys.

The listeners are equal. Totally equal. Totally equal.

Equal and equivalent, is that... Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Exactly, yeah. And I would read it as far as their Buddha nature. They're all the same.

Which implies Tathagatagarbha. Yeah, chik. Chik, good.

Yeah, good. All right. Din din ne.

Now if we summarize those thoughts, we would get the Dode again. If you were going to summarize what the Buddha was trying to say when he said all the tracks people have the same Buddha nature, if you were going to summarize that, you could write a poem called the Sutra Alankara, one of the five great books of... Of Maitreya.

Maitreya and the Sangha. Okay, here we go. Let's read it.

This is supposed to be a summary of the idea that the true nature of the lower practitioners and the higher practitioners is exactly the same. Rebecca. Oh, Rebecca.

Rebecca. DODE RGYEN LAS, CHOS DANG DAG MED ROL BA DAG, SUNG PHYIR RIG MI PHAG DE PHYIR, SANG NYID PHOG PHYIR PHUR BA'I PHAS PHYIR, THAR THUG PHYIR NA THAG GCIG NI, PHYIR PA'I THAR THUG THAG PA GCIG DU SUNG PA'I GONG ZHIG BRTEN LA. Good.

As you can taste, this quotation is being used to assert that THAR THUG THAG PA GCIG. In the end, all paths lead to the same goal. All spiritual paths in the world lead to the same goal.

In the end. He's stating different proofs or different evidence for the fact that all spiritual paths lead to the same goal. He's giving different pieces of evidence.

And it doesn't make sense. Let's do the pieces, Utpala. PHYIR.

Dharma. Yeah. Things or everything.

No self nature. PHYIR BA. No self nature.

And freedom. Free. Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Freedom?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and freedom. Oh, and freedom. It's all the same.

Okay. The Dharma, the emptiness, and the freedom are all the same. For who?

For the listeners and the four Buddhas. Or Mahayana practitioners. The Dharma is the same.

The emptiness is the same. The freedom is the same. Therefore, RIG NI THA DE PHYIR.

Reasoning is... No, this RIG means the family. Yeah, listeners and bodhisattvas.

They are separate paths. They are separate, yeah. Okay.

They have SAM NYID THOB PHYIR. They want to attain two different wishes of their heart. They have certain kinds of emanation.

And they are ultimate. Therefore, it's all THEG PA GCIG. Okay.

Therefore, it's all one road. It's all one path. Now...

Is he saying that the two, that the SAM NYID is the same? Well, what the sentence says after that, it says, THAR TU THAB PA GCIG TU GSUM PA'I GONG ZHIG In what sense can we say that all paths lead to the same goal? GONG ZHIG means, what are you thinking about when you say they all lead to the same goal?

And I'll tell you something cool. Khetub Jai does not help us. He leaves it at that.

And I went and got you some help. Here's a quotation from a sangha, first of all. Okay, or Maitreya.

Let me see if it's any different. Yeah, it's pretty much the same. But here is a very helpful dude.

Okay. Choney Lama. Choney Lama, I like him.

Yeah. Oh, he's got a list. And he's got a commentary where he explains this verse.

So God bless him. And here we go. We're going to put this in a huge footnote, and it's totally worth it.

Otherwise that quotation is meaningless. All right. Who's checking you on this first part of your footnote?

Let's see. Who's checking me is Lisa Lee. Okay, Lisa.

She's asleep? No. No?

Okay, Suvarn. Will you check me? Okay, let's go.

Go slow. Wow. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

We better add these numbers here. Okay. Okay, here we go.

We got to slow down here. By the way, with the big letters, I have... You've connected it to the sutras.

Yeah. No, to the sutras. To the sutra.

To the poetry verse, okay? Yeah, yeah. So I took the pieces of the poetry verse, because Chodron Lama hid them.

Okay, so here we go. Thank you so much. Well, it was a good piece of work, I have to say.

I think it's the only person who ever commented on this, and it's stunning. Okay, Nguyen Kyang. THAR THUG means what?

At the end. At the end. Yeah, in the end of ends, in Russian, in the end of ends, THEG PA CHIG.

It's all the same. I mean, it leads to one end of ends. Yeah.

To say that in the end, it's all one path, does not gelwa with DO. Well, it doesn't contradict the sutra. Yeah, and specifically which sutra?

What I really meant. Yeah, because in That Sutra they talk about the whole type of crummy guys who will never get to... It's right?

Listeners. Okay? Okay?

Look, Asanga and Maitreya are saying, Look, when we say all paths lead to the same goal, in the end, we are not contradicting the third turning of the wheel, where the Buddha talked about three different tracks. Okay? We are not contradicting.

Okay? And I'll tell you why. That statement that Lord Buddha made about the selfish guys was jangten.

[Speaker 2]
I heard that. Take your turn.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and by the way, there are three tests of figurative. There are three tests of figurative. According to the Mind-Only School, right?

Isn't it the Mind-Only School where we got that? No, you can say according to even the high school. Oh, the high school agrees.

Okay. There's three tests, okay? First, gongshi.

Was there something they were... Was there some topic they were talking about? Yes.

What was it? Super selfish dudes. Okay, that's called gongshi.

That's what Buddha was thinking on. Okay? And then secondly, did he have any private thoughts about that?

Gongba, right? Okay. And we say yes, and they were not the same as the gongshi.

Right. Okay? Yes, he did have some private opinions about that.

Okay? And why does there have to be a gongba about the gongshi? Because munlak nuje, if you take it literally, it would contradict reality.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, okay.

[Speaker 1]
It would hurt reality, okay? If you took the selfish thing literally, then there would have to be people in the universe who never get enlightened, who never reach full enlightenment, and that's a problem, okay? If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
dak go ne jang dun du drel wa yin che, Therefore, this statement that they're super selfish people, and even if all the Buddhas in the universe tried to help them, they couldn't, okay? That's not literal, okay? Yeah.

Now, gongshi means, well, what are some of the items here that are thrown into question, okay? And that's what the verse is about. Okay.

He's listening, thinkable, okay? The chö is questionable. The dak me is questionable.

The nam dul is questionable. The rikta de is questionable. And the sampa is questionable.

The tulpa is questionable. The tartuka is questionable. I numbered them for you.

Seven different problems here, okay? Here we go. This is a beautiful piece of poetry.

Okay, who's your checker? Let's see who my checker is. Let's see, I want to find some people I may not know yet that I would like to know.

Emily, I know who you are but we have not spoken yet. So could you please check me? She's the queen of Shenzhen.

Queen of Shenzhen. Hey Ella, I got some G coffee the other day. It's really good.

Okay. Now, the first word in the verse was dharma, right? Yes.

It said dharma, and it said equal. The dharmas are equal. Therefore, somehow there's only one path in the end, okay?

The dharmas are equal. Therefore, there's only one path in the end, okay? What's that dharma mean?

Nothing that you would think. It talks about ying. And chu ying is a synonym for?

Emptiness. Emptiness, okay? The realm of id.

The realm of id. First of all, we never could have figured out that verse because the chod does not refer to dharma. It refers to the essence of all dharmas.

And listen, drdja means the path you have to travel. We had it already, right? Journey, right?

The path, the three... What do you call them? What's Geshe-la call them?

The three tracks. Yeah, the three tracks to be traveled. They are not ta de.

They are not different. In the sense that their chu ying is the same. Yeah, in the sense that their dharma tattva is the same.

But what's the... Their emptiness is just like the empty sky. Empty sky dharmadhatu?

Yeah, exactly. It's like the empty sky. Yeah, yeah, okay.

We know the four kinds of space, so we know it's not exactly the same, but we know they're similar. Okay, so first of all, in the end it's all one path because all three tracks have the same emptiness. I wouldn't agree about that, but...

Well, no, the emptiness is the same. The same, qualitatively the same. Okay, number two.

Who's checking you on that still, Ella?

[Speaker 2]
Emily. Yes, please go.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so in the first one we had drudja, which is the place where you're going on, and then now we have the drudpa po. The journeyer. Good, the journeyer, the person on the journey, are all sungpa.

They're all equivalent? Yeah, the guys who are making the trip on all three tracks are equivalent because they all... This is misspelled.

They all perceive... The emptiness of person. I'm sorry, no, that's correct.

It's not the emptiness of the person. It's each of those three people perceives... Perceives no self-nature.

Yeah, so don't tell me it's three different tracks. The track is the same because it's all full of emptiness, and the person on the track is the same because they all see no self-nature. They all realize no self-nature, okay.

Also, their nam du lam is the same. Their freedom is the same. Yeah, their freedom path, which is, if you remember, it's the stage you reach after the fight.

Okay. Okay. The path they attain once they have given up du kun from Nick's text.

Truth of suffering. Yeah, truth of suffering and the truth of the source of suffering. Look, I don't care what track you're on, they all get rid of du kun.

[Speaker 2]
The truth of suffering.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, suffering and the source of suffering. Therefore, they have achieved... nam du lam means the result aspect of seeing emptiness directly, for example.

Like, how you feel for the next 24 hours. It's called nam du lam. You're free of those problems, okay.

You said, for example. Is there some other example, or is that what we're speaking of? Oh, God.

Yeah, you got to talk to Maitreya, okay. I mean, maybe. That's a long...

I'm not going to answer that right now. Okay. Number four.

Who's checking you? Is it still Ella? Joy Chen.

Okay, here we go. Joy Chen. Yay!

nyen tu kathik sangyaway rikta depa nyi kyang lang chik du jukpa yupar sungpa dang Okay. This is tough. This is tough, and I'm sorry for it.

But let's do it. nyen tu kathik means some listeners... sangya Some listeners are...

what? Royal promise? They get enlightened.

This is sangye. This is the verbs. Oh, oh, oh.

Okay, yeah. Some listeners... sangye.

Okay. So, even though they are a separate class, the Mahayana people, they travel lam chik. They travel one path.

Yeah, in that sense they are equivalent. They are equivalent to the bodhisattvas. Some listeners get to enlightenment.

Therefore, I admit they're not the same class as the bodhisattvas, but can't we say they are traveling the same path? Okay, what enlightenment are we talking about? Ah, no.

Choney Lama is also disturbed by this statement, and it's coming later. And I'm proud of you that you are disturbed. Yay.

Okay. Okay, good. We're going to talk about it later.

Okay. I'm going to push this down so you can read it. Who would you like to suffer next?

Venerable Jigme, but she won't suffer. She loves to correct me. Ah, she's happy.

Did you hear the joke? Which one? When the coronavirus met Venerable Jigme, it was scared.

Okay. All right. I don't get it.

No, Jigme. If you have coronavirus and you come up against a Buddhist nun of this stature, you've got to worry about your future. Okay, this is kind of weird.

Choney Lama is really pushing it. DE BZHIN ZHES PAS Okay. When the Buddhas are sitting around wondering, how did I get enlightened?

Okay. When the Buddhas are sitting around wondering, when the Buddhas are sitting around thinking, boy, how did I get enlightened? It's because NGON, earlier, in Deipa Bai, Oh, in Deipa Bai.

I practiced JANG CHUB KYI CHOD PA. I practiced the activities of a bodhisattva. Yeah, and that's how I became a Buddha.

So GOM PA here means deep in their heart. When the Buddhas think about the path that got them to where they are, they think to themselves, you know, it all came out wonderful because I was practicing the six perfections. Okay.

Now, there's also some NYEN THOS and RANG BZANG GIS. Oh, there's also some listeners and self-made Buddhas. And they enter the DIG CHEN.

They enter the greater vehicle. But later they PHUNG. But later they fall.

They get demoted. They go back to MEN PA'I CHANG CHUB. They go back to...

A lower enlightenment, which means a personal nirvana. Okay. Personal nirvana, okay.

But, even then, say, even then, they sit around and say, it was the SANGS RGYAS KYI THOD, power of the Buddha, that earlier I was practicing Mahayana. Okay. And that's why I got enlightened.

Wait a minute. Say that again. So, those guys, they graduated to Mahayana.

They practiced Mahayana for a while. Then they lost the Mahayana. But they still reached their goal, which is a personal nirvana.

And when they get there, they say, you know what? That's because I did that Mahayana practice. What?

So, they didn't understand the Mahayana practice? Well, they practiced it for a while, and because of that THUG, because of that extreme power of Bodhisattva path, I got to my little enlightenment. Thank goodness.

SANGS RGYAS KYI THOD. Therefore, it's possible, THAMS CAD TZAM, it's possible for a passing instant that those Buddhas and those listener arhats will have the same TZAM PA. Yeah, that's a stretch.

Yeah, that's a big stretch. So, Choney Lama is saying that Arya Asanga was saying that in the end it's all one path because in the end they do have some moments of the same thought. Okay.

But we also probably have some moments of the same thought of what's for lunch. Yeah, exactly. But what's the same thought here?

Just to repeat. The Mahayana path. I'm so glad I did a little bit of the six perfections because that's why I got here.

Okay. We still got time? We okay?

We're actually over time again. That was it. Let's say these last two, okay?

Okay. Are those the ones I should translate for next time? That's a great idea.

That's a great idea. And by the way, I want you to struggle with the rest of the verse. Okay, great.

Yeah, okay. Which Choney Lama doesn't get into, I think. Okay.

All right. Okay. Why are we talking about this?

We're talking about this because we're talking about the three kinds of, no? Well, we're trying to prove Tathagatagarbha. Right.

We're trying to prove that all paths lead to the same goal. Yeah. And that's such a sweet, you know, the first time I saw that sentence, I was so happy because I grew up, you know, in a different path.

Yeah. And I was so excited to see a Buddhist text say, in the end, we all go to the same place. I love that.

So Geshe-la, have we now, like, gone out of mind only? Are we on our way to Arya Nagarjuna? Or is this just a little interlude?

Yeah, I would guess that we are segueing because we're criticizing people who say they are the same. Yeah. Okay, cool.

Thanks so much. See you guys in the morning. Okay, get some rest, Geshe-la.

Thank you so much for these classes. Thank you. They're awesome.

We're so lucky to have the ALL project, actually, that we have all these books.

[Speaker 3]
Most definitely.

[Speaker 1]
We'll be talking a lot about that soon. Yay. All right, everybody, so get some rest.

We'll see you tomorrow morning. New hours.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.