Бетси Грир — Книга 2: Интерлюдия о пустоте, занятие 13

[Speaker 1]
Please teach. Oh yeah, hi. Okay, homework me.

All right, I'm trying to click to share screen but nothing's happening. Tim, do you need to give me ability to do that? There we go.

[Speaker 2]
You have ability to do it.

[Speaker 1]
Now there we are. Can you see? Yeah.

Yes. Okay, welcome to the first quiz of this class. So I apologize in advance.

It's always kind of hard to read the quizzes before you've really gone through what happened that day. So anyway. Okay, so what are the three major sections?

We've just started a new section of the book. K-Drip J, remember he's talking about emptiness. Okay, so we've just started a new major section.

And now what are the three subsections of this part of the book? Where he's going to explain the actual topic of the book. Do you remember?

We covered it at the beginning. I remember the first one. Oh yeah?

Yeah, because I was studying it this morning. Oh, cool. I'm not going to say it.

Unless you offer some money. It's kind of the thing we've been talking about. Identifying the teachings of the Buddha that must be interpreted and those that can be taken at face value.

And then he's going to explain the books of Arya Nagarjuna and the commentaries written on that, on his true intent. And then we're going to reach a definitive understanding of emptiness based on those books. So can anyone give me the Tibetan for will explain the actual topic?

It gets really quiet. You know, explain, right? You know, explain.

It's only during the homeworks, everything gets so quiet. So explain that. Nge chepa?

It's got a couple of the same words. Nge tenla apa? So start with no.

Now there's some words in there that don't occur. Nge suwa chepa?

[Speaker 2]
Something like that.

[Speaker 1]
It's chepa chawe chenu. Cool. But you guys, those were good guesses, especially Nick's was a good guess.

It's a lot of ways to say it, I guess. Okay, so if we desire to reach suchness, we need to rely on the teachings of the Buddha. That seems pretty straightforward, right?

Why does KJ have to spend so much time talking about this topic?

[Speaker 2]
Because not everyone agrees on even, doesn't even agree that the Buddha said certain things or didn't say certain things.

[Speaker 1]
That's true, but it's kind of before that. It's, I guess what I, maybe I didn't ask the question quite right. So the teaching, Buddha's teachings were varied based on who is in the room and what level of intelligence they had.

So he spoke a whole number of different things in different ways. So which ones do we rely on then? If we have to rely on his teachings, which ones do we rely on?

Okay, so now Tim, KJ spoke about disagreement among those at the listener track about the Buddha's teachings. What is the point of disagreement among them? Some in the lower school will say that the Mahayana was not, is not even figurative or literal because it wasn't even spoken by the Buddha.

That's actually not what I'm looking at here. I'm looking at something that they disagree about. Some of the listeners say that every single thing the Buddha ever spoke was literal.

How could he ever say anything that he didn't mean? And some say that, oh no, there were teachings, there were both kinds of teachings. There were literal teachings and there were figurative teachings.

Now, Tim, what are two things about which those of the listener track agree? Sorry, I'm a little bit too far. Shall I say it again?

There are two things. The one that you mentioned before is the second. The one that was in that paragraph.

Oh, it was one that he cannot lie, right? Or something like that? That was the reason that some people from the listener school say that the Buddha always spoke what he meant.

He always meant what he said. So listeners, right. They, listeners agree that what the art of interpretation means is whether or not it's appropriate to take the Buddha's words at face value.

And now Tim. I finally get it. So some might say that.

No, no, they agree. They agree that the Mahayana was not even figurative or literal. Yeah, there's not because it's not even the words of the Buddha.

Now, had I really understood what the last thing we talked about, we would have gone on to the next question about that issue. But anyway, here we go. So I suppose there's no English equivalent of Changne.

I guess not. The art of interpretation. All right, what's that?

No, the art of interpretation. Very good. Draji Shindu.

Very good at face value. Don't forget the two at face value. Okay, here's a long one.

Tudroki Dranjupeshirgyurpa. Siri thinks I'm trying to add Apple cash. They spread what they heard, but they are not interested in practicing.

Okay, so spread what they heard. That's you got that part. That's the two trope.

Yeah. But what's the Dranjupeshirgyurpa? They don't want to follow.

They spread what they heard. No, there's no. Those to whom the expression they spread what they heard applies.

Yeah, good. That's difficult. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good translation. Yep.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, thank you.

[Speaker 1]
All right, we're done. Do you hear the lion? I tried to add this lion's roar to one of my quizzes, like, I don't know, two years ago.

And I hear it every time I do a quiz. But I guess you guys don't. Share your screen.

There's a button at the bottom that says share computer audio. And then when you do that, it'll give us. Oh, I see.

Oh, hmm. Okay. Oh, I see.

I gotta learn that. Okay, here we go. Do you want to look at my attempted translation in the next?

Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. Or do I just tell you when you show the screen?

Let's show it. You go ahead. Oh, Siri.

Guys, just go away. She gets told go away more than anybody in the whole world. Oh, I got a him.

Oh, sorry. I think this is the right one. Do you see it?

Yeah, I do. Yeah. A bit too small, though.

Is it? All right, too big. What are you?

The three bears here? Perfect.

[Speaker 2]
Just right.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, it's so bad, huh? No, it's pretty good. Yeah, it's pretty good.

The chain, you know, in English, you would say made a great many mistakes. Okay. You see what I mean?

We don't say created a mistake because it's too conscious, right? Yeah. Yeah, good.

It's also almost perfect. I wanted to have more of to show more or a link to what he just said in the previous sentence, which is, okay, we got listeners, but then we have, you know, listeners who are called the ones who listen and spread. Yeah, I think I wanted to make more of a link that this last one about expound its philosophy that the Drupada Mawa.

How do you make that sound more like spread? One, one important thing you have to do with this sentence is distribute the word Niente to Drupada also. Well, I did sort of, I said, it's philosophy.

Are they talking about expounding the Drupada of the listeners? Or is it that there's some listeners who expound the philosophy of the Mahayana? No, what he's saying is there have been many Tibetans who failed to distinguish between listener as a track and listener as one of the four schools.

Oh. Oh. You see what I mean?

Or as two of the four schools. You see what I mean? Listener as a...

Or just as a school of philosophy. Yeah, or classical school. Listener as a classical school and listener as a track.

Like any practitioner. And it's an important distinction. And, you know, once you get fairly sophisticated in your translations, when you see Niente, it could be four different things.

Niente could be, Shravaka could be four different things. Number one, any disciple of the Buddha. Okay.

Could be called a Niente. And in the early sutras, it just means disciple. Or it could be specifically those people who...

Tudro, who in the early days of Buddhism heard the Mahayana from the Buddha and spread it to other people. Then those Nientes are called Tudros. Yeah.

Then there's the Niente track among the three tracks. What are the other two? Self-made Buddha and Bodhisattva.

Yeah, exactly. And those tracks are kind of parallel to the three tracks of the Lam Rim, which are kye bu chung, kye bu jing, kye bu chenpo. Person of lesser capacity, medium capacity, and greater capacity.

Although they're not exactly the same thing. Right. And lower middle way is the big supporter of these three tracks.

Okay. That they're the guys who really, really want to talk about these three tracks. Okay.

And they say those three tracks are differentiated by what kind of no self do they see? What kind of no self do they see? Only the Mahayana track sees emptiness.

And the other two tracks see no self nature of things or people or etc. Okay. And then the fourth...

What was I thinking about? Yeah, the fourth is actually oftentimes the detailer school. And sometimes the detailer school plus the...

What's the next school? Logic schools, right? Sutras.

Okay. So oftentimes it's almost derogatory use for the first two schools. You see.

And what Khenrupje is saying here is that a lot of Tibetans have made the error of not distinguishing between three and four here. That's why you have to distribute the word NYAN THOS KYI THEG PA BA in the sentence. It has to say NYAN THOS KYI THEG PA BA DANG NYAN THOS KYI DROD PA DANG MA BA Okay.

He says a lot of Tibetans have failed to distinguish between listeners as a track and then listeners as some of the four schools. Now, if you're Seiji, what are you going to do here? Talk about self-cherishing?

No. I mean today, Seiji. In his Q&A, in his homework.

I don't... Can I ask... I don't know what Seiji is going to do, but how do I deal with the WA here?

Are we talking about people, not... Oh, yeah, that means that.

[Speaker 3]
Categories?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, exactly. It makes a follower of a track and a follower of a school. Okay.

If the WA wasn't there, it would say they have failed to distinguish between listener track and listener school. But now the sentence with WA means they have failed to distinguish between a follower of a track and a follower of a school. Okay.

Is he going to... Thank you. And is he going to go on and talk about why that distinction would be such a big deal?

No, he doesn't. No, he doesn't. What's the difference between someone who cares about tracks and someone who cares about philosophy?

That's why I'm going to Seiji's approach. What was Seiji's approach? Okay, thank you.

What did he do this morning? In his final question. So give me the three or four...

What are the possible combinations of a listener track follower and a listener school follower? I have no idea because I don't know what they mean. Seriously, I don't know the distinction of what that means, to be a follower of a track and a follower of a school.

Listener track follower wants to go through the five paths without having bodhichitta, first of all, okay? They don't want to deal with bodhichitta. They just want to see emptiness and become an arhat.

And in fact, they want to see a lower emptiness and become an arhat, okay? That's a lower track listener, okay? Now, what's a lower school listener?

Basically... Same thing. You could say they want to follow Abhidharma, but they don't want to follow Mainomi or Middle Way.

As schools, you see what I mean? But they still have the aspiration to become enlightened, however it is they define it, right? No.

You have to say... We had it the other day. They aspire to the enlightenment of their own track.

Well, that's what I said. They aspire to the enlightenment that they define. Of their own track, which is a lower arhat.

Okay, so what text can I go to to understand what the difference is between a track and a philosophical school? That's a huge question.

[Speaker 2]
Chinnamama takes a few steps at it in my book.

[Speaker 1]
I think for this, you kind of need an oral explanation. You could read a genre of literature called LAM THOB THUL, L-A-M-T-H-O-B-T-S-U-L. And it's actually the first translation we ever did in 1985 or something.

Methods of Achieving the Path. If you're really interested, get that book. I think you can buy it on Amazon for $100 or something.

It's a little pamphlet. Or I think Ali might have a copy somewhere. But it defines the difference between the three tracks.

Now I kind of understand the difference. Yeah, but it's complex. It's fairly complex.

And then for the four schools, you know the differences. Yeah, we're going to talk about that now. No, yeah, I'm just looking at the two together.

Why would you care? Track versus school. Yeah, now how did we get into this conversation?

Because we have to... I'll get rid of it. We're not finished with this conversation.

We're not finished with it. We have to continue with it. And the point is, is there anybody who's a nyentu, who's a listener, who is Mahayana?

I'll be interested to hear what he has to say. Wait, go back to your list of four. Show your list.

My list of four? Oh, okay, sorry. Oh, man.

Sorry, my computer likes to do its own thing sometimes. I wonder where that came from. I have no idea.

Oh, I can't find where it is. I have too many things. Yeah, Peter Myrtle got it.

Anyway, the first of the four was any follower of the Buddha, right? So those could obviously be Mahayana, right? Those listeners could be Mahayana.

[Speaker 2]
You could also have a person who has the wish and is on the path of accumulation or preparation and has not yet developed their view of emptiness, right? So that they would be a Mahayana person in their heart, but philosophically be a listener.

[Speaker 1]
That's stretching it, but that's possible, I guess. And then, but the Tledrok is the big exception here. What's that mean?

Listen and spread. Yeah, these are guys who are not interested in practicing Mahayana, but they went to the lectures by the Buddha and they heard the Mahayana, okay? So those guys are special because they can never say what?

The Buddha didn't teach Mahayana. Yeah, it's not ka. It's not ka.

It's not the word of the Buddha. They cannot say that. But they are not Mahayana people, okay?

So that's what we're going to go to right now. Yay! That was slick, wasn't it?

Okay, so we finished that sentence with great pain, and now we're going to the next paragraph, okay? Which I started to do in that game with great pain. It should have.

Gibson, can you check Venerable Upala's pronunciation on section 116? Yes. 上郎吉章参见此乃泰坝前辈兴大泰德尼尼德 舜尼 I'm sorry?

舜尼 舜尼? 泰尔舜尼 尼德尼德 特地公帑尼帕尼德尾道解此章德 PAKPA THOGME KUTCHE KYI JI THAR CHE BA THANG, PAKPA LOD RU MI SRED PA BRTEN PA LA SOGS PA'I DOI RJES SU DRANG TE, PAKPA LUD RU YAB SRED KYI JI THAR CHE BA'I TSULO. Cool.

Nice. And now we get into some, you know, your book is one of the greatest presentations of emptiness ever. And here we go.

I mean, it kind of feels like we're jumping in the pool now. GSUM RAB KYI DRANG NAS BYAS PA'I TSUL LA This J, notice it's NJ, okay? And that's why pronunciation is important.

That's why Geshe-la is bugging you about prenasals, okay? NJ means to divide. J means to do.

Please repeat. NJ. NJ.

Then say J. J. NJ.

NJ. J. Okay, this is divide.

And never forget, never, okay, if you don't hear a prenasal in your head, you will never be a good translator, okay? So GSUM RAB KYI DRANG NAS BYAS PA'I TSUL, okay? How do we divide between DRANG and NGE BRDUN in the GSUM RAB?

In the teachings of the Buddha. Yeah, so the highest of all spoken words, technically. Okay, how do we divide between what he meant literally and what he meant figuratively?

How do we divide it? Well, there's two parties. There's two schools.

Okay. Even among the great geng shingdra. Yeah, of the Mahayana.

Now, be careful. This is not GSUM RJE. GSUM RJE, okay?

This is just GSUM. SHING DAG GSUM RJE is the innovator. SHING STE GSUM means the innovation.

Got it? Okay. So you got to be careful.

This GSUM you can think of as TSUL. T-S-U-L, same thing, okay? You can think of GSUM as TSUL, okay?

So there's two ways, there's two systems of the great innovators of the Mahayana. No, wait, wait, wait. Innovations?

Yeah, you can say innovations. Yeah, there's two innovations about this, okay? Meaning two innovators have two different ideas about it, okay?

All right. What's the SHING doing here then? If we're talking innovation, not people.

SHING DAG means wagon, wooden horse. Okay. So that's the object of an innovator's innovation, okay?

The horse is the... Yeah, the wagon is the invention. The TSUL RJE is the inventor, okay?

So there are two inventions of the Mahayana. Yeah, you could say it that way, okay? Here they are, DITAR means...

Let me give them to you, okay? Let me tell you what they are. I'm sorry, I'm yelling because there's a lot of noise and it feels like if I don't yell, you won't hear it.

Oh, we don't hear the other noise, but we're okay. Oh, I see, man. So first of all, the first camp, innovator camp, is THOG ME KU CHE.

Who is that? The first innovator camp is Arya Asanga and Master Vasubandhu. Good, yeah.

Holy brothers. The two brothers. By the way, by adding Papa in front of it, he's implying that he thinks Vasubandhu was also an Arya.

Okay. The twin Aryas of THOG ME. Okay, starting with THOG ME, right?

Okay. And they follow... Jason Zhang, okay?

They follow Sandhi-Nirmochana Sutra. They follow the sutra called, What I Really Meant. Yeah, or What I Really Meant.

You can say it either way. Really, it's unraveling the true thought. And there we get the word DREL in its real meaning of DRUL, which is to free or not.

So it's the same that we had in Seiji's text this morning. Same root. DEL DU GZU.

I'm sorry, I can't hear. In Seiji's text this morning, we had DEL DU GZU. Please DEL this guy.

Free this guy. Yeah. And then DEL PA, commentary means to free the meaning from a book.

It's the same root. So here you see the sutra, Sandhi-Nirmochana. Nirmochana related to Moksha, meaning liberation.

Liberate the meaning from the book. Try to thresh out the true intent. BYED BA is the past tense of?

BYED BA. Good. MMMM, BYED BA.

MMMM, BYED BA. So as far as discriminating between what the Buddha really meant and what he didn't really mean, we have the division that was made by these two guys. I'm sorry, Geshe-la, can you ask Veronica not to run water while you're teaching?

It sounds very loud to me. Yeah, no, we're good. Okay, no, it's okay.

It smells good too. So there's the way that things were divided. There's the way the distinction was made by the two brothers, two half-brothers, okay?

And they were following what? They were following the Sandhi-Nirmochana Sutra. Which is not a bad strategy.

Why? Because it's the word of the Buddha. Stanley should know the answer to this question, because we spent a long time on it in China Sotar.

Because Yen Tse devoted a thousand pages to it.

[Speaker 2]
Because Buddha was trying to explain what he meant in that Sutra.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, Buddha was defining Chang-e in that Sutra. So somebody comes up to Buddha and says, Why did you present different teachings in the second turn of the wheel, and the third turn of the wheel, and the first turn of the wheel? In that Sutra itself, Buddha defines what he meant and what he didn't really mean.

So that's not a bad place to start, is it? No, no. That's a good place to start.

And then you've got Papa Lundrup's system. You've got Arya Nagarjuna and his spiritual son. Which is?

Chandrakirti? Aryadeva. Yes, sir, Aryadeva.

Aryadeva. Then you've got the way that they divided it. They didn't use...

They chose a different Sutra. They based their division on a different Sutra called LOD DU MI ZAD PA BSTAN PA The Sutra taught by... Yeah, never-ending wisdom, something like that.

[Speaker 3]
Never-ending wisdom.

[Speaker 1]
Akshayamati, okay? Never-ending wisdom. Yeah.

Now, I'll give 20 bucks to anybody who can tell me the problem with the pakpa at the beginning of that name.

[Speaker 3]
It could mean Arya, but it usually means exalted in front of a Sutra.

[Speaker 1]
Nice, 20 bucks to... Who was that? I know.

Ali, 20 bucks to the master banker. Yeah, and to put it frankly, I would take it as referring to the Sutra here. But it's a little difficult because he already has two Aryas referring to people in the same paragraph.

PAKPA THOG MED definitely means Arya Sangha and Vasubandhu. PAKPA LOD DU means Arya Nagarjuna. But PAKPA LOD DU MI ZAD PA'I BSTAN PA'I MDO LAS SOGS PA'I MDO'O probably means exalted Sutra.

And by the way, Venerable Utpala, every time Kamalashila quotes a Sutra, he says PAKPA. It's noticeable. It's very noticeable.

It sticks out. It means he really thought the Sutras were amazing. He never says the word Sutra without saying PAKPA.

Got it? Cool? All right, so here we go.

He says, look, there's two different ways of deciding what did the Buddha really mean, and what did the Buddha not really mean. Well, there's the way that a Sangha on his team defines it, and then there's the way that Nagarjuna on his team defines it. Okay, got it?

You guys okay? By the way, here's the title of that second Sutra. As usual in the Kangyur, it starts with PAKPA or Arya.

And here's the Akshaya, which means never-ending. All right. We're going to go to, first of all, how the two brothers decided what was literal and what was not literal, and remember they are following that Sutra.

By the way, who can tell me the whole structure of Tsongkhapa's famous Art of Interpretation book, Lekshen Yunpo? Who can tell me the whole structure? Earl says the three turnings.

Well, actually, it's this. The first half of the book is Arya Sangha's team's idea, and the second half of the book is Arya Nagarjuna's idea. Okay, got it?

So, A.W.J. is just following his... His teacher. His teacher.

Yay! All right, here we go. Okay, please read.

Okay, and Gibson, you're still checking. Okay. Translate.

By the way, GOD DE GONG BRAL, it has many abbreviations. I'll give you that. Sorry, I didn't go ahead, and my mind is not here today.

It's okay. The name of that Sutra, dividing... Oh, the true intent one?

Yeah, it has... Dividing the true thought? There's a million nicknames for it, and you just got to get used to it.

So, yeah, what I really meant. Okay, DOG GONG BRAL. It means DOG DE GONG BRAL.

Okay. It has in it a LUS. What's LUS?

A chapter, or a section, or something? Yeah. Requested by DUNDAM YANG DAG PHAG.

What's it? Paramartha... Oh my gosh, what, the ultimately perfect Buddha?

Arya? Paramartha Samudgata. Yeah, Paramartha Samudgata.

Okay. His name is something like ultimately, purely Arya or something. It's a guy's name.

DUNDAM YANG DAG PHAG. Nick, do you remember the structure of that Sutra? Doesn't it start...

isn't it kind of divided into discussing KUN THAGS GZHAN DBANG ZIN MYONG GRUB? No, it's ten different bodhisattvas. Oh, right, yeah, of course.

Yeah, ten different... I think it's ten or eleven. Ten different bodhisattvas come and ask a question.

Okay? And I believe it's a six or seven chapter, but we are interested in the chapter that started off with a question from this bodhisattva. And by the way, there are other important bodhisattvas there.

Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara, people... There are heavyweight bodhisattvas are asking questions to Buddha. And DUNDAM YANG DAG PHAG's question is, what the hell is this thing with...

First you say everything exists truly in the first part of your teaching, twenty years, and then you do this Diamond Cutter Sutra, Heart Sutra thing, and you say nothing exists really. And then you back off on that, and you say everything's mind only, there's foundation consciousness, blah, blah, blah. You know, there's three periods in your career, Lord Buddha.

Which one's the real one? Okay? Got it, you guys?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, two at a time though, right?

[Speaker 1]
Say again? Two at that time, and then he teaches the third in response to the question. Oh yeah, the question is actually the third period in the real, but that's correct.

Yeah, yeah. So here we go. Let's go...

Venerable Utpala, and... I don't know, is Joy Chan, are you there? Yes, Akesha.

Okay, try to criticize anything. Sorry. Okay.

And actually, it's the question. Here comes the question. Hey, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche.

What's that? Hey, Conqueror. Hey, Conqueror.

Dambar. First of all... Yeah, in the beginning, you were saying...

By the way, Varanasi, when you go there, it's really cute. People... Like, I went to a temple at four o'clock in the morning, and the orange food seller from the street was down there.

This guy I bought oranges from every day. And he just looked like some weird little guy. And then he's down there in this temple, and he leans over to me, and he says, By the way, Varanasi is a separate universe.

It's been here for 5,000 years. So, Buddha taught there. Buddha was a latecomer there.

So, in Varanasi, there's a place called the Forest Knock, where there's lots of sages and reed dogs, wild animals. In the forest, called the place where sages and animals hang out. For the benefit of people who had entered the Shravaka vehicle.

The listener vehicle. Shravaka vehicle. Yeah.

You taught BHAG PA'I DAMA ZHIG. Yeah, you taught the Four Truths. Yeah, okay.

He taught the Four Noble Truths. Yeah, he's referring to the first turning of the wheel. You taught the Four Arya Truths.

Please continue and enjoy. You're still checking, okay? Okay.

Yeah. For me, Yeah. You turned the wheel, okay?

You RAB TU GOR. You super turned the wheel. That in this JIG RTEN MA GOR.

Didn't turn. In this world, didn't turn. Yeah, that nobody ever turned before.

Oh, that nobody ever turned before. Okay, nobody in this world ever turned it before. And you turned it.

And you turned it CHOD DAM BSTAN PA. Very correctly. In keeping with the Dharma, okay?

Who didn't turn it before? No LHA turned it before. No me turned it before.

Nobody who was a LHA, LHA RGYUR. And nobody who was a human, MYUR RGYUR. By the way, her text was very corrupt.

We changed the text, actually. But this was a very corrupt part of the text. So, no god, no human ever turned that dharma wheel before.

But you turned that NGO TSAR MED DU CHUNG BA CHOG KYI KHOR LO. It was super NGO TSAR.

[Speaker 3]
Amazing.

[Speaker 1]
Amazing and wondrous, okay? MED DU CHUNG BA. You turned that amazing wheel, okay?

Now, here's the punchline. Go ahead. Joy, you're still there.

Go ahead, Beth. Udpala, sorry. CHUNG DON DE KYIS CHUG KYI KHOR LO KHOR BA DE YANG LA NA CI'I PA KHA PA CI'I PA SBYANG BA'I DON TSOS PA'I ZHIG NI GZUGS RGYUR PA LAG LA Yeah, okay, don't forget we're inside the sutra called What I Really Meant.

And here's the disciple, YANG DAG PHAG, okay? And he's telling Lord Buddha, that CHUG KYI KHOR LO, that dharma wheel, that you Khor Wat, LA NA CI'I PA, okay?

[Speaker 2]
As opposed to LA NA MED PA.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, we see LA NA MED PA all the time. No, nothing higher, nothing higher, nothing higher. Now you got the opposite.

LA NA CI'I. Nothing lower? No.

There is something higher. There is something higher, okay? Well, that's what I mean.

Yeah, yeah. There's nothing lower because it's the lowest. No, there are lower things.

Oh no, it's not lowest, it just means there is something better. And KHA PA CI'I PA means, TSOS PA'I KHA PA CI'I PA, could be, there is an opening. KHA PA CI'I PA means there is an occasion.

CI'I PA means there is. CI'I PA and YOD PA are the same thing. CI'I PA and YOD PA are the same thing, okay?

So, this is a very strange sentence, okay? A disciple of the Buddha is telling the Buddha, you know that first teaching you gave? You could have done better.

You could have said something higher. Because what you said has something higher. And what you said is open to debate.

KHA PA CI'I PA, okay? And what you said was CHANG BA'I DON, was something we need to interpret or else it's going to be wrong. And what you said is TSOS PA'I ZHI, is arguable, debatable, okay?

He's criticizing the first turning of the wheel, okay? Got it? Okay?

Everything you said in the first turning of the wheel in that forest in Varanasi was something that wasn't the best you could have done, okay? Got it? Yeah.

Is he relating it like that or is he just saying... No, he's not criticizing. He's saying, I think the first turning of the wheel you gave was simplified for the people there.

That's all he's saying. He's not criticizing the Buddha. He's just saying, look, seems to me like you didn't...

it seems to me like you... in English we say you pulled some punches. You could have boxed, you could have really boxed the other people, but you didn't.

You were trying to be soft, seems to me, okay? All right, here we go. BYAMS CAN DE'I PHYI'I PHYIR NAM KYI NGO BO NYID MA BYIS PA GNYIS LAS TZAM KHYER BA MA BYIS PA DANG RGAGS PA MA BYIS PA DANG TSOS MA NAS ZHI BA DANG RANG BZHIN GYIS YONGS SU NYANG NGES LAS DES PA GNYIS LAS TZAM Yeah, and by the way, he's referring already to the second turning of the wheel, okay?

Hey, O conqueror, then you said nothing has any NGO. Nothing has any essence. And starting from that point, TZAM NAS, okay?

Starting from that point, starting by saying I'm talking self-existently, okay? Very important. The structure here is very important.

Starting by saying, listen you guys, I'm talking self-existently. There's nothing that starts. KHYER BA MA BYIS PA Nothing in the universe ever starts.

RGAGS PA MA BYIS PA Nothing ever starts. TSOS MA NAS ZHI BA TSOS MA is a very rare word that means from time with no beginning, okay? From the beginning of the universe, which has no beginning.

There is peace. Everything is peace. Everything's at peace.

Everything's already at peace, okay? And everything has already NYANG NGAN LAS DEPA It's already in nirvana naturally. Yeah, the whole universe is naturally gone to nirvana already.

All right? TZAM NAS means that's how you started the second turning of the wheel, okay? It's already four things that nobody understands.

Let's repeat them. Okay, first of all, I'm talking self-existently, okay you guys? Got it.

Okay, nothing starts. Nothing stops. Everything was peace from the beginning.

And everything is naturally nirvana already, okay? Got it? You okay?

God, it's awful quiet out there. Sometimes I think my internet froze. Just giggle once in a while.

Okay, here we go. Yeah, and then you turn the second turning of the wheel, okay? For who?

THEG PA CHEN PO The greater vehicle. For people who had entered. ZHUGS PA is past tense of ZHUGS PA.

Okay? Past tense of ZHUGS PA, yeah. For people who had already entered the greater way, you taught DANG PO NYID, okay?

You taught emptiness. And with that aspect, you taught this unbelievable second turning of the wheel. That was awesome, okay?

That was really awesome, okay? By the way, what book are we in? Don't forget.

We are in Unraveling the True Thought. No, we're in... Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Who follows that way of Canggye? Who follows that way of Canggye is Master Asanga. Yeah, and Vasubandhu.

And Vasubandhu. Yeah, good. All right.

And here we go. Next paragraph. Isn't this the same as what he just said?

Yeah. He's gonna say it wasn't this way. Okay?

In section 125. In section 125, he's gonna say, okay, you didn't teach the way you did the first time, where there was something better, where there was opening for argument, where there was opening to interpret it differently, where there was an opportunity to debate with you. Okay?

You didn't do it that way. He's gonna say it in 125, okay? Okay, okay.

Sorry. No. Okay, keep going.

Yeah, instead, you started off from tsam ne, you started off from the concept, and you said, well, listen, everything I say today, you have to add the word... Self-existently. Yeah, self-existently, okay?

Okay? Things don't start, things don't stop, everything's been peace from the beginning, and everything is natural nirvana, okay? That was your second turning of the wheel.

Okay, keep going. YANG DAG PAR ZHUGS PA NAM LA LEGS PAR NAM PAR CHE BA DANG BSTAN PA NGOS TSAR MED DU BYUNG BA'I PHYIR GYI GOR LO GSUM PA GOR TE Yeah, and following Dr. Kramer's comment, we can say, but nowadays, but nowadays, you are GOR LO GSUM PA GOR. Yeah, you're turning the third...

Yeah, now you've reached the third... Third turning of the wheel. Yeah, you've reached the third stage in your life, the third stage in your teaching, and now you're saying, you guys have to LEGS PAR CHE.

You have to distinguish what I said before. You're going to have to weed out what I meant and what I didn't mean, okay? You have to do it well.

Yeah, and telling us to do that is the third turning of the wheel, okay? Got it? So, now you're in the third turning of the wheel, and all day long you talk about how we're going to have to make this distinction between what you meant and what you didn't mean, okay?

And by the way, you got to understand one thing. According to a sangha, telling us to distinguish between what he meant and what he really meant is the only thing he really meant. So, he's saying everything is figurative, except for telling us that we need to analyze things carefully.

Yeah. A sangha says both the first two turnings of the wheel were figurative, okay? And he says the only one that's not figurative is where the Buddha confesses to being figurative in the first two, okay?

Got it? This is a sangha. This is a sangha, okay?

The only time the Buddha told the truth was when he told us to be careful about him not telling the truth. Okay? It's pretty awesome, okay?

I'll say it again. The only time the Buddha told the truth was when he told us to be careful that he wasn't always telling the truth. Okay.

All right. That's a sangha's position. Cool?

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
And then that sangha says if a guy tells you he just lied to you twice, then why are you going to believe him that he just lied to you twice?

[Speaker 1]
Don't believe anything I say. Yeah, now I'm supposed to believe that? Wait, wait.

No, I guess so. Thank you so much, Geshe-la. Okay, it's awesome.

It's awesome. By the way, I mean, we're in the first pages of a 2,000-page book. I mean, where's he going to go from here?

This is an amazing text. Amazing text. Just for example, I took the Lion's Dance.

The whole teaching comes out of this book. It's just two pages of the book way down in the middle somewhere. And we taught it for three, four years.

It's amazing. This is an amazing book. All right, we'll see you guys this evening.