Бен Крамер — Книга 2: Драгоценность истинной мысли (Геше Йеше Вангчук о Дхармакирти), занятие 56

[Speaker 1]
Dr. Kramer out there getting ready. Yeah, I'm just getting ready. I'm doing push-ups.

Yeah, that's what you got to do. Jumping jacks. All the things we typically do to get ready for class.

Whatever gets the translation juices flowing. Energy drinks. Lots of Red Bull.

So much. They're not paying us anything to say that either. No, no, maybe they should be.

Yeah, we should look into that. That'd be great. Spindrift, a delicious bubbly beverage.

That's good. If anyone wants to cut out that clip and send it to Spindrift and see if they'd like to sponsor our show. That would be awesome.

Sometimes hundreds of people watching. Yeah, almost. It's like the Super Bowl of translation.

It is, that's right. Twice a week. Yeah, amazing.

It looks like it's time. Are you there, boss? I know there's a Geshe somewhere waiting to guide us through this text.

He can't be far. No, let's see if Starlink is working in our favor today. Starlink, an excellent internet provider.

I don't know how well this is translating. Whale. Yeah, so how are things?

You know, going pretty well. Glad to hear it. Yeah, just found our passports, you know, that's always comforting.

Great. Why do you have so many is the question? Oh, yeah, if they were all mine, that would make me a man of mystery.

Yeah, usually secret agents have them from multiple countries, though. Not all of the same one. That's a good point.

There's one. Hey, I heard him. Holding up a reassuring finger.

Very similar complexion to Geshe Michael Roach. Not all fingers are reassuring, but that one was. Nice hat.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Did you get that out here? Nice. More product placement, I see.

We'll be there Wednesday, Nick. Okay. FYI.

Good to know. I'm just going to go out and try to set you guys up. We'll be right back in.

Here he is. Cool. I don't know how many surf brands have sponsored translators.

This could be the first. Hi, boss. Hey.

It's great. We're delighted. We're twins.

Hey, homework time.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, here we go. That's right. We all agreed it's gray suit day.

Exactly. Okay. I'm going to tag stuff here in my head.

Oh, what if I plug this in, you know? It's probably going to increase the number of people who give answers for your homework. Almost certainly.

Same, right? Same thing. That's always been my experience.

What is it, my friends? Go ahead, Ben. What is it mainly that keeps living beings bound up in the cycle of pain?

The first words of the commentary describe them in a metaphor. You can cheat. You can go and look at the book.

You can go and look at what we've done so far. I think we have the readings up online. Please give the English, if you could, for this metaphor given in the first of the commentary.

Give the Western Chinese. And if you're just feeling frisky, you can give the Sanskrit, which you would be able to do if you peek. And if you don't, you may not be able to, unless you're a great Sanskritist.

[Speaker 2]
The net of conceptions that bind us.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. What does that represent?

[Speaker 3]
That represents misunderstanding, basically.

[Speaker 1]
I agree. Western Chinese. It's actually in the chat.

Look at that. Yeah. Great.

Sold. Look at him, live interpreting and answering questions at the same time. Amazing.

And anyone Sanskrit? You would have had to have gotten it from the reading. But maybe people doing homework in the future can be encouraged to go look at those if they want to.

The Kalpana is good. Yeah, Kalpana. Wrong Kalpana.

Kalpana means conception. Yeah. So, yeah, great.

Jala. Great. Kalpana Jala.

Great. Neat. I just thought that was a fun one for me.

No one else has to totally care. Please give, I know you do. I shouldn't say that.

Please give the Western Chinese for profound and far reaching and tell me what those mean. Sabmo means profound. And that means teachings on emptiness.

Yes. It's all in there. There it is.

No, it's not all there. She got sab so far. Nice.

Gay means far reaching. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Look at that.

[Speaker 1]
And usually refers to teachings on the wish or teachings on compassion. Agreed. Yeah, good.

Right. We could say wisdom and method. We could say understanding and kindness if we'd like.

I like it. How does our author correlate these to the bodies of a Buddha? Give the English, Western Chinese and Sanskrit names for these bodies.

And then what body did he not directly mention? The lungku and the truku. Those are not Sanskrit, I know.

It's true, but you made the list of possibilities. Lungku and truku are what in English or Sanskrit? Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya and enjoyment body.

And what is it? Oh, emanation. What does he relate that to in terms of sabmo and gyache?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Jessica put it in the chat. Good. Yeah.

Sabmo. Enjoyment body and gyache emanation body. Maybe.

Did we cover all the bodies? Oh, what happened? It's hard for me to see.

Oh, there's just hearts. Here's what he said. And I found it unusual.

Okay. He explains that profound refers to omniscience. The Yeshechukwu or Sanskrit?

Dharmakaya.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I think it was.

[Speaker 1]
Jnana Dharmakaya. Yeah, cool. Jnana Dharmakaya.

Whereas far reaching is explained according to our author in various sources as referring to omniscience, the enjoyment body or else the emanation body. What did he not cover? The svabhavakaya, the emptiness body, the truth body.

Well, that's essence body. Yeah. Essence, right.

Right. Yeah, good. Oh, maybe.

Oh, I put these out of order. Yeah, I agree. Let's do this.

Yeah, I think I said it right. I think you did too. I win a banana.

Yes, we have no bananas. Oh, I'm sorry. Here we go.

So, Geshe Baslama, if you are available, I very much need your help now. Hello, Bubu. Thank you.

Very much so. You're a little bit quiet, but I would take it. I'd settle for it.

My wife would be enjoy that. Okay, we're ready?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
He doesn't even know what it means. He doesn't even know what it means. Because he knows everything I teach him.

Very good. Very good. First sentence is correct.

Okay. Let's try the second sentence. Deal.

Because he has achieved the ultimate. Also perfect. Okay, well, there's nowhere to go from here but downhill.

Yes, that is very true. I had a question here that will be obvious. Okay.

I just thought that key was weird. Genchi ki. Yeah, it couldn't be instrumental in my opinion.

You see what I mean? Yeah, right. Cool.

I mean, it was in the book, but it's a printed book. It's not a... I don't know.

Nah, it can't be. Okay, agreed. Otherwise, it would mean that all living beings' rays of light are ripening his mental strength.

No, I don't yet have that capacity. He doesn't need it anyway. Okay, deal.

I like the West Chinese language there though. Okay. Are we still going?

Yes, sir. Yeah, that was a difficult ZAL one. So ZAL can mean clear.

G-S-A-L. G-A-U-L-S-A-L-A-Z-A-L Yes. And B-S-A-L means make clear or dispel.

Big difference between clarify and dispel. And he translated it correctly. Okay, this great word is supposed to mean that there's no...

Yeah, why would anybody think that, Ben? Why would anybody think what? That there was no wisdom in the mind stream of a realized being as a Buddha.

Oh, yeah, people do somehow. I mean, two reasons. One, people get this idea that somehow emptiness means nothing.

And so he's just like super stoned all the time or something. And that's enlightenment. Yeah, okay.

And then there's the, you know, people go down this weird road. There's this Sankhya argument maybe about he couldn't answer 14 questions. And so he must not know stuff.

People do make these arguments, I guess. All right, sounds good to me. I think it's cool.

I don't know. It's nice to see, especially for hippies who think that somehow to think is distinct or something. I read a...

I was in a children's toy store buying stuff for my granddaughter. And they sell little children's books, you know, like 10 pages long with big pictures. And it was about rock and roll stars.

And the last page said, but most of them have gone to heaven anyway. Oh, that's nice. I was kind of irritated.

Oh, here, one more. You're skipping a sentence. Oh, am I?

I'm sorry.

[Speaker 2]
You're right.

[Speaker 1]
Nice try. Oh, this was interesting. Yeah, the yang-na, you got to catch the yang-na.

Oh, yang-na, just like, I don't know. I said if that's meaning if that's true or... What does yang-na mean?

And if that's true? You could also say. You could also say.

An alternate opinion coming. Yang-na means you could also say. Oh, I see.

You see what I mean? Okay. You could also say that these lines are praising the able one, the Buddha, the conqueror.

Praising him for ngawa, the kusum. Yeah, for having the three bodies. Yeah, you're so cool because you have the three bodies, along with the chenles that those three bodies produce.

Their activity? Yeah, sacred activity or something. The cool stuff they do?

Yeah. I was teaching Tatiana how to cook rice. And it was a lineage passed down to me by Tenzin to me.

One of my first teachers. And he's in the Budget Guinea lineage. Went long back.

If you memorize it, you can. Anyway, chenle means sacred activity. Like making rice?

Yeah. Under certain circumstances. Okay.

Dopa-ta. There was no concession. Good, dopa-ta.

Yeah. Why did he translate dopa correctly? Because there's no sa.

Good. So he didn't say net of realizations. No, I'd like one of those instead.

So tokwa-ta-sa means idea and could be wrong. Tokwa-ta-sa means realization. Okay, big difference.

He's stuck in a net. He's not stuck. He's free of getting stuck in the net of realizations or conceptions?

Conceptions, yeah. Conceptions. Yeah.

When did the... Eeeh, monikudam. Subchit.

Went to the yesterday party. Okay. Profound points to new enjoyment by...

Subchit. Okay. Far-reaching to the emanation by...

Okay, good. And oh, goodness. Goodness.

This was awkward. Che ni means one and a half. Yeah, right.

It means che dang nyi, which is the way they say one and a half. They say half from two. Half away from two, which means one and a half.

Okay. Che nyi kyi. Gampa che nyi kyi.

The one and a half lines about kundusambho, which is Sanskrit for... Samantabhadra. Samantabhadra.

Ah. Shendun Punso Chenle Danchepa points out that he possesses the most excellent concept. Okay, that's okay.

Yeah, the point is he's trying to say three bodies plus what they do. So it's kind of four things. Okay.

The three holy bodies and what they do. Okay. All right, nice.

And I tried, you know, this was awkward to translate, but I tried to you know, to match it up with where it happens in the verse, because it's here, right? Yeah. So it has to make sense somehow.

Really, I think what he's saying is the lines that include kundusambho is dakunetro, you see what I mean? Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, so it's in the second half.

[Speaker 1]
The one and a half lines. Then in English, you have to say one and a half lines in the Tibetan. I see.

Referred to samantabhadra. I see, that makes perfect sense. But in this case, they're dealing with the literal meaning of the word samantabhadra, which means super cool.

Okay, beautiful. Yeah, so in this case, it's an adjective and not a person's name. But something's coming up.

Okay, I'd like to give you the plane, if I may. Thank you, dear. Nice job.

Thank you. Oh, I share, right? Okay.

Let me see if I can find your book. No, I got caught calling up. Hang on.

Okay, no problem. I've learned not to show my whole computer to everybody. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, this is the angel. Oh, this is good. Here we go.

Let's see. It needs to see all my personal correspondence to you. I'm begging for help.

How do you know I do that? Let's see here. Okay, sharing.

Oops, there we go again. Okay, can you see it? Yes.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so we're down. We're down. Same number.

Yeah. Ben, you want to do one just for free? I do.

I want to. Let me get a big cursor. Besides me when the cat scratches.

Yeah, same. She's so nice most of the time, and then suddenly she just has a bad day. Yeah, it's just happened to us as well, I'm afraid.

It's in my lap sleeping. I would show you, but I would wake it, and it might attack me. Okay, go.

Please read. ,RTEN CHOS DI THEG PA CHEN PO, ,THON MONGS MA YIN PAS, ,RTEN CHOS SU GRUB NUS SO, Okay, nice. SEMS NAM BRAL The Commentary on Accurate Perceptions.

Yeah, from Manavartika. From Manavartika. Yeah, it should have been Liu Dangbu, right?

The first two chapters. Same, yes. First two chapters.

,DE BSHAD PA DAG MED, They explain a lack of self or self-nature. Yeah, how things have no self-nature. And in those sections, they ma den anything else than khanzaki dharma.

They don't teach anything other than the lack of self-nature of people, persons. Yeah, which means they don't cover the lack of self-nature to things. Oh, they do.

They cover... Oh, I thought it was... Oh, I see.

They don't cover, not just... Yeah, it means that this layist comparative, van, they don't cover anything more than the lack of self to the person. Meaning they don't cover the lack of self to SEMS. Okay, the first two chapters. But he says, here in the CHOS GYI, In the opening praise. Yeah, where you praise... The opening praise where you praise some holy being, to indicate something about the book.

They also, yang, teach DAG MED PHRUNG MO. CHOS GYI DAG MED PHRUNG MO. Yeah, the subtle lack of a self-nature to things.

Yeah. Then this has the capacity, NUS, the fact that the words of praise stuck in at the beginning of the book also treat the subtle lack of self-nature to things, is enough, NUS, to establish that this is a shastra, or commentary, of the THEG PA CHEN PO'I THUB MA MA YIN PO. Yeah, which is of the unique system of the greater way.

Nice. Anybody remember, I mean, if we're talking second school, and if you remember the Six Flavors of Emptiness, I believe we talked about the difference between the lack of self-nature to things and the lack of the self-nature to a person. Yes.

Someday.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, we do. DAG CHING RANG WAN CHEN GYI DAG. Right, right.

RANG WAN CHEN GYI DAG. It's, isn't it ZASU? Isn't it self-standing and substantial?

Yeah, yeah. DAG CHING RANG WAN CHEN GYI DAG. Yeah.

Self-standing and substantial. And those are somehow different, okay? Right.

All right. What was the example in the Six Flavors of Emptiness about? Oh, that's easy.

That's Rob Haggerty, the crane operator. Oh, yeah, okay. All right.

Yeah, you are not in charge of your body and mind. You are not the driver of your body and mind. Something like that.

All right. Is that a kind of emptiness? Yeah.

Depends on what... They don't call it that. Yeah, it depends on what's going on.

Okay. Who's going to read the next one, Benjamin? Okay, cool.

Let's say... Kading? Do you want to read?

[Speaker 3]
Certainly. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you.

[Speaker 3]
CHU KI DAK ZIN. Oops, sorry. The spotlight has blocked off.

Oh, there we go. CHU KI DAK ZIN LU CHEN CHING BAR CHE PA YIN YANG KHOR BA'I TZA WA MA YIN PAR NDOG RGYU DE NA KHOR BA'I PHYI TZA YIN NA KHOR BA'I TZA WA YIN PA'I MA KHYAB PO Nice.

[Speaker 1]
Kiri just walked in. His backpack is heavy. Uh-oh.

He cleans out all the award papers from the school and throws them. Oh, I thought maybe he had a cat in it. Well, I think they cut up the papers and use them for the cat bed because there's so many of them.

Okay, CHU KI DAK ZIN. Holding to the self-nature of things. Self-nature of things, yes.

Functions CHE PA to CHING BAR LU CHEN. To bind living beings, those who have a body. And by the way, they say LU CHEN when they're bored of saying SEM CHEN.

It's the same thing. Body havers instead of mind havers. CHE PA YIN YANG But it is MA YIN KHOR BA'I TZA WA.

It's not the root of the cycle of pain. Yeah, so if the tendency to hold to a self-nature of things is not the root of the cycle of pain, then what would be? If it's not holding to the self-nature of things that chains you to samsara, what is?

It's the, yeah, to you. It's holding to a self-existence of you is the chain. And then there's some very interesting conversations.

I was working on the Angel Devil text. They talk about it in there. Which one do you understand first?

The lack of self-existence to things or the lack of self-existence to yourself? Yeah, you understand things first. But when you perceive it directly, you perceive yourself.

So that's what he's saying here. You can perceive the lack of self-existence to things and not yet perceive the lack of self-existence to yourself. It's possible.

There you go. But that wouldn't be the root of samsara. Right.

And then he makes a controversial statement, which is very fitting for Ben Kramer. Ben, just because something is the shidza of korwa doesn't mean it's the tsawa of korwa. So just because something's foundational or something to the cycle doesn't mean it's the root?

It doesn't make it the single root. Just because something massively contributes to samsara doesn't mean it's the root of samsara. The tendency to think that an automobile is coming from its own side is a foundation for samsaric life, but it's not the one single worst root, which is believing that you come from your own side.

It's very cool. All right. Who's going to read the next one?

Oh, we need someone tough. It's a big one. I think I saw...

Roksana, do you want to read?

[Speaker 3]
Yes, thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. I'm going to cut it so they can use it. Oh, cool.

Go Roksana.

[Speaker 3]
Nyi tong kyi te kon nani ranggyel pakpey cho yul ma yinpar tenpa ni sem tsampa'y ndo pa yin u ma rang gyu pe ranggyel tang sem tsampa ni tawa dunpar shek?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Ben, what's nyi tong? Nitong is like empty of two?

Empty of duality or something? Yeah, I would say that. Empty of duality.

It could refer to the emptiness of object and subject. Right. Okay.

Are they somehow the same and not two separate things? Right. Okay, Nitong.

Yes. That flavor of suchness or emptiness, where things are empty of a subject and object distinction, then some people say that's reality, that's highest reality, that you are not the object, but you never were anyway, okay? Or we can say subject and object are not different in the sense that they both come from your mental seeds.

How's that? Okay. All right.

Rangyel Pape, that's something that Rangyel Aryas may in. Yeah, the Aryas who are self-made Buddhas, they do not teach as— This is where you get into these, in these schools you get, especially in lower middle way, three tracks, right? Yes.

Self-made Buddha and bodhisattva track, okay? And those three tracks are distinguished by what? Well, that seems to be the heart of the question here.

Yeah, but also by supposedly by three degrees of emptiness. Okay. So, he's saying middle track, the self-made Buddha, second track of the three.

Yes. They say there's kind of emptiness, subject, object, duality, emptiness. ,BSTAN PA NI, ,SEMS SANGS PA'I BSDOD PA YIN, Well, that's a belief of the SEMS SANGS.

Okay. So, Pagpai Chuhyul? Is not an object of perception of an Arya on the second path.

The belief that an Arya who is self-made Buddha track, never sees the lack of duality as their flavor of emptiness. Okay. And SEMS SANGS is saying they don't.

I'm sorry. That's an old Mainomi belief. Our office is Mainomi.

Okay. It'd be interesting someday to try to research whether the beliefs of the lower or middle way and the Mainomi differ on these questions. Yes.

,BSTAN PA NI, ,'U MA RANG RGYUD PA'I, Well, here it is. ,'U MA RANG RGYUD PA'I The independent branch of the middle way. Yes, the lower middle way guys.

They say, when they describe the emptiness that self-made Buddhists perceive, the flavor of emptiness that self-made Buddhists perceive, their view is TUM PA with the SEMS SANGS view. It's similar. It's basically the same.

Yes, consistent with the Mainomi view. Right. The way the Mainomi school describes the emptiness seen by the middle of the three tracts is the same as the lower middle way's opinion.

Okay. And then you can get stuff like, ,GNOD DROD PA'I, ,U MA RANG RGYUD PA'I. What's that?

The Yogachara or like a yogi practitioner leaning branch of the independent middle way guys? Yes. Yeah, you get the lower middle way guys who lean towards the Mainomi school.

Yeah. And then there's lower middle way guys who lean towards the Sutta school. Okay.

Yes. ,GNOD DROD PA'I, ,U MA RANG RGYUD PA'I. Okay.

Yes. All right. Who's going to read the next one, Ben?

How about Jessica?

[Speaker 2]
Thank you, teacher. Thank you, Jessica. ,LUNG DI LA RANG RGYAL, ,GYI THUN MONG MA YIN PAS, ,PHANG PHRAD SO BA ZHAG LTAD BAS, ,GUN ZHUGS KYI THOG PA'I, ,MUN THUB SONG BAS, ,RANG RGYAL THANG LAM, ,BA PHRAD ME LAM THANG NAM DRUL LAM, ,GYIS NAM GYIS MA PHRAD NA TSE SOB Wow.

[Speaker 1]
Nice. Very nice. Wow.

I think you recorded that. Thank you so much. Okay.

,LUNG DI LA. By the way, a nice pre-nasal, okay? Yeah, she said LUNG DI.

I was so impressed. ,LUNG DI LA. Wow.

She must have a good teacher. In this system. Yeah, according to this system, it's SHAKKAWA, JOKKAWA, JOKKAWA.

Difficult to... Yeah, hard to figure out or to engage in or distinguish maybe even. Yeah, the MAIN PHANG CHENG.

The primary object to be given up. Yeah, which is particular to the RANG RGYAL. Yeah, unique to the self-made Buddhas.

What is LUNG DI? He says here in our system perhaps. I don't know.

I don't know what system we're in when he says that. Personally, I would have said the higher middle way. Okay.

I believe that in the... Yeah, it is higher middle way. In the higher middle way, since we don't believe in those shadings of emptiness.

Makes sense. Then it's difficult for us to isolate a unique object to be eliminated by the self-made guys. Yeah, perfect.

We have trouble in the higher school because we don't have these shades of emptiness to distinguish between the emptiness that the self-made Buddha guys see and who's lower than them? The listener guys. In the highest middle way school, we have difficulty distinguishing between two kinds of emptiness that these two tracks would see.

And perhaps we wouldn't even... Perhaps we wouldn't even distinguish the two tracks by the emptiness they see. Then you have to ask the question...

Well, then how are they different? How do you distinguish them? One is sort of their attitude towards how they take bodhisattva teachings.

Yeah, right. But let's see what he says. He says something else.

He does. RGYUN ZHUGS KYI RTOG PA Yeah, the realization of entering the stream? Yeah, now it's tricky.

Ben, what kind of Rangyel, self-made Buddha, would have had... What kind of self-made Buddha dude would have had a stream-entering experience earlier? I mean, yeah, you'd either say an arhat or someone who is on the self-made Buddha track path of habituations?

There's an easier answer.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, good.

[Speaker 1]
NGON DU SONG BA A self-made Buddha guy whose SONG BA passed already? Yes. MEN LAM, MEN DE LAM A lower path.

Yeah, the first level, the listener. So, it is possible to go first two paths in the listener track, and then graduate to the third path in the self-made Buddha track. There is such a thing.

So he says, well, let's talk about a middle track guy, self-made Buddha guy, who had the experience of stream-entering earlier, when he was a listener. Wow, yeah. And let's even talk about their BAR CI MED LAM and their NAM DUR LAM.

Yeah, their uninterrupted path and then their path of liberation? Yeah. The time when they're in the direct perception and they're still on the path of seeing, and the time when they are reflecting on what they saw and they're still in the path of seeing form.

The Abhidharma guys say one millisecond, but I think higher schools would say the next 12 hours or something like that. So NAM DUR LAM here is pretty synonymous with RJES SHES? Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. By the way, the word comes from...

On the BAR CI MED LAM, you are attacking the obstacle. And on freedom path, NAM DUR LAM, you are free of it. The battle is won.

Mentally the battle is won. BAR CI MED LAM is supposed to be a period of dispute, mental war. And then you come out of it into NAM DUR LAM, which means now you're free of those obstacles that you were battling in the BAR CI MED LAM.

Yes. Steve Michael, at what point are you called someone who enters the stream? I would say at the first millisecond of BAR CI MED LAM.

Yeah. Okay, thank you. But I warn you that some Abhidharma schools might not agree with that.

Uh-huh. NAM DUR LAM. Now he says something cool.

What does MDZES mean, Ben? Like good, nice, better in this case, maybe. Yeah, good.

What's it literally mean? Like beautiful? Yeah, it means beautiful.

Like a beautiful woman or a beautiful house or something like MDZES. And he uses it here for it might be better. Yeah.

Might be more appropriate. So sometimes they use MDZES in that sense. See, it might look a little better in this school if we don't make a YEWA between BAR CI MED LAM and NAM DUR LAM.

Uh-huh. Okay, right. If we don't distinguish between those two parts of the path of seeing for such a being.

Yeah, for a self-made Buddha, it might be better if we don't try to distinguish between the direct deception and the afterlife. Yes. It might be better.

Okay. Things might come out more parallel or something. Yes.

Yeah. He's trying to say it gets messy if you try to make that distinction. Okay.

All right. Who's going to read the next one, Ben? Oh, good.

Let's see. Duoduo, would you read? Yes, sir.

Thanks. Very nice. Wow.

I wish my yoga was as good as your Tibetan. Okay. Oh, no.

It's your yoga. Okay. Anyway, well then.

NYEN YANG NYID LA SROG PA THOB PA LAS PAR GYUR RO Wow. So traditionally, we distinguish between the first two flavors of emptiness. NYEN THOS and RANG RGYAL.

Listener and self-made Buddha. Listeners and self-made Buddhas on the basis of the quality of their realization. One is seeing the rough...

One is seeing the subtle... What's the opposite of subtle? Yeah, gross.

Lack of self-existence to things. And one is seeing the subtle lack of self-existence to people. Right.

Normally, we say that's the difference. But if you say there's no difference between those two kinds of emptiness, then how do we distinguish between the two tracks? Yeah.

How does listener track differ from self-made Buddha track if the emptiness they see is essentially the same? And see, that was the question we had. There's a cute answer by a kiddo, Jay.

Right. Oh. THOB KYA CHEN CHUNG Oh.

Is that true? Yeah. We do it by the relative size of their accumulation of virtue.

Good. How big is their karmic bank account? Yeah, right.

It's not what they see. It's not the flavor of emptiness that they're able to perceive. It's just how big is their karmic bank account of good karma.

And that distinguishes the first track from the second track. Because in the highest school, which is what we're supposedly in right now, we don't distinguish between degrees of emptiness. It's either emptiness or it's not.

And by the way, it is true. The emptiness that you see in the first millisecond of your first direct experience of emptiness is in no way different than that which the Buddhists perceive. In that sense, your state of mind is equivalent to a Buddhist state of mind at that moment.

As far as how well do you understand emptiness, you cannot understand it better than at the first moment of tonglen. Even a Buddha doesn't see it better than you. Because it's total emptiness.

So we don't, in the highest school and in truth, we don't talk about degrees of emptiness. All right. Next.

Okay. Gilse, would you read? Oh, while she's walking up here, then why would Lord Buddha promote us schools where they had flavors of emptiness?

Probably right. Good answer. I mean, it helps people, right?

It's a big part of the lower middle way. So, yeah, I guess it is a right. We would say like a skillful way to help people come to the correct understanding of emptiness, which in the end is the one you have to see anyway to see emptiness directly.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Well, a little chunky, but you can go down. You want to go back to zoom. That's zoom supposedly.

Maybe I can honestly see it. It's just a little big. I'll stop sharing for a second.

Okay. Whoa. Purple Haze is all around.

Don't know if I'm moving up or down. How's that? Same.

But you can just finger zoom. Zoom out. You're at 500 magnification.

[Speaker 2]
There you go.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, it's so good. Stop being so perfect. Take me up, Captain.

Oh, no. What is it? Oh, no.

Who's going to read, Ben? Oh, man. There's that nice lady next to you.

She came up just to read. And whatever mean thing she's doing to your computer. We just did that one.

Oh, just kidding. There we go.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, good.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. So, Chicha means the offering of praise, which is true. Or you start the book.

And I'm going to skip up to it. Very bravely. I bow down to the Buddha who is free of the net of thoughts, who has the bodies of deep and wide, who gives forth wonderful rays of light.

Okay. I bow down to that person. We have a comment about that, which is down here somewhere.

He says that verse. Yes. Okay.

Yes. It's teaching the eight forms of logic. Yeah.

Well, I thought he was talking about wide rays and bodies and all that. I also thought that. Teaching the eight forms of logic.

Yeah. Therefore, it is actually presenting the numshak of the lu of the tenchu. Yeah, it's a presentation of the, well, the body of the tenchu.

I looked this up and I got into a thing about this with Mr. Geishi Jamyang. And I looked it up. I can send you a thing.

I don't know if it's useful, but that Gyaltsabje divides between tenchus that are lu and tenchus that are like, I'm sorry, like yenlak, based on whether or not they teach all eight. I don't know about that. Okay.

Within the books of Dharmakirti, there are books considered the body and then the limbs. Okay. Yeah.

Right. No, I don't think that means, I don't believe it's what it means here, but it could, I guess. Okay.

No, I mean, it could be. We have to think about it. But anyway, what would it say otherwise?

It would say that the whole body of the book is presented in those lines of praise. Yeah. From the point of view that the praise that opens the book makes reference to the eight classic forms of logical argument.

Yeah. And in that sense, it is, in a way, presenting the subject matter of the whole book. That's all.

That's all. Many says you might be curious. Right, what are the eight?

What's the eight? Yes. That's kind of a sneaky way to start the book.

Yes. I remind you that we have skipped to the actual content of the book. We were stuck in a very recondite argument for like a year about all kinds of topics that didn't have to do with the start of the book.

And then we found out that he does start the book later. So we went there. Okay.

Yes. Who's going to read the next one? That was pretty short, wasn't it?

It was short. Yes. Way too short.

You want to take this cursor. You can also curse it. So he's going to give us the eight logical forms.

Right. Which are supposedly revealed in that verse about the rays of light. I can't imagine how.

Let's see if he, we can always say we hope he treats it later. I do. So first he treats YANG DAG and DANG NANG ZHES PA.

Yes. Correct and mistaken forms of inference, deduction. Deduction.

So first what's correct deduction and what's mistaken deduction. Yes. So that's one and two.

Right. Then we listen YANG DAG and DANG NANG. Yes.

Correct and incorrect forms of direct perception. Good. And by the way, there's always been an argument about the order of the chapters of this book, which is kind of 1,000 years later or something.

Don't you think it would be more logical to treat what first? Direct. Direct.

I mean, tell me how they say blue, red, yellow. Then get into logic. So there's a question for you.

Do YANG DAG, DANG NANG. And then correct and incorrect, like forms of verbal proof. You could say, I don't think the emphasis is on verbal though.

I think it's just, you know, positive statements. Okay. Something like that.

Oh, I see what you mean. Positive assertions. We could say assertions.

Okay. Things that droop as opposed to things that got. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Droop as opposed to SIN JIN, which is next.

Okay. Okay. Right.

SIN JIN means. Like in this case, like refutation, denial arguments.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. YANG DAG, DANG NANG. That's the eight.

Yeah. So good and bad logic, good and bad direct perception, good and bad assertions, and good and bad disputes or attacks. Yeah.

Great. Which makes a total of eight. It does.

The first four of these, which is correct and mistaken logic and correct and mistaken direct perception. Yes. DANG PO ZHI.

They are treated in the LIU DANG PO GSUM. The first three chapters? Yeah, the first three of the four chapters of the HAM ANA BARGIT CHEN.

And then the latter four are taught in the SHUG PA. In the fourth chapter. Fourth chapter, yeah.

And kind of the feeling is moving from RANG DEN to SHEN DEN. Yeah, right. He says in the next.

Yeah. Yeah. Arguments to yourself.

Yeah. Emptiness and then how to share those arguments with others. Right.

In the form of dispute. Okay. Which is a beautiful idea.

Yeah. Prove things to yourself first and then start talking about logic. Logic for others.

Yes. Okay. Now you can let her go.

Okay. How about Lindsay? Is she there in the room?

She's dying. She's almost doing a headstand. Good.

Good. But she smells like a burnt pizza box. I don't know what she's thinking.

No, she had a fire in her house the other night. No. Probably robbed the pizza and she left the box in the oven.

Okay, you got the cursor here.

[Speaker 3]
Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Yes.

[Speaker 1]
The first four, right, which was good and bad logic and good and bad direct perception. Okay. Those first four are ways for dual jas who are cheddar jawa for number yeah students of all four I have a nice translation of charity John took me about 10 years okay targeted I see okay good students of people for whom the book was written okay okay okay so those first four kinds of the four of the eight kinds of logic for the eight kinds of perception you were presented for the benefit so that so that students could so that those special people who are fit the study that come on America okay good Napa shall just okay would have a some certainty about the the things considered there for themselves yeah and be careful here with Napa okay yeah okay in certainty and sometimes it means ascertain yes they're not the same you know what I mean yes proceed and why don't you be sure and here is Steve okay all right she machine the latter four that involved disputation really those are top a method those are yeah those are sneaky method for Zimbabwean do Josh in yeah for taking other students into their care attracting other students so there's made for the Pomona vertical the first two chapters were written for them then the last two chapters the second two chapters third and fourth chapters were written those guys to prove to the other guys why they should follow that come on about yes all right nice that now you got an overview of the whole thing and again there's centuries-long argument about the order of the verses the order of the chapters and it's kind of weird that you could even argue about it you know thousand years later if the flow of the book is so unclear that no one can agree it comes first that's a little unusual yes I think it's time for you to tell us how we use this in our real life we stopped under that right we did the one under it did yeah we did uncle oh did we I'm sorry yes we did yeah that's the one we did and then do you want to give me an assignment two minutes oh yeah I have an assignment for you now you shouldn't ask me well I always will if yeah we were kind of discussing you know it's nice when a person goes to Kyoto for example to teach it's nice to take their book along because normally about 150 to 200 people buy it new they read by it or they buy it for the first time now your book has never been officially final edited but what we do in that case is we just printed add we call it place kinkos kinkos yeah you print up some copies at kinkos put a little binding on it you know so I just want to throw that out to you if you want to try something like that I could help fund it but I be ashamed for you and Kendra to go to Kyoto without your book even if it's not in final form okay and you could talk to Lindsey here she she's good at that she helps manage that kind of thing in an emergency you take a chapter out of your book that you want to emphasize and just print that at kinkos and take it with you but you know that's up to you I that's up to you and Lindsey okay we also have that other book that we did complete I'm talking about your sedan time oh you are talking about that we have complete versions of that book well I'm just saying you and Linda should figure out how to get a hundred copies to Kyoto with you okay why we send mules like you and Kendra okay that's why we add your son Ezra okay because he gets a full-size suitcase that's right that's what I hear okay now as far as your next assignment yes the paragraph starting Jay Park yes starting there and the paragraph starting around Nikki okay cool those three great yeah and by the way we I found out that when I do a program for somebody like when I do a five houses program for Tim for Tim's group we like to have Kim show off in the translator class for that week yes you like bot right the person but what's been happening is the rest of you have been falling behind in the frequency of your classes you know I just became aware of that with Nick a few weeks a week ago so I'm gonna correct that and maybe even give you some extra classes okay so who those of you who weren't having classes for a while because of that okay that's the purpose was to show off the person who's in charge of the organization yeah we were teaching for it which is still a good strategy it's nice and we're we're working hard from our end to rebalance the schedule going forward based on whatever happens so we don't want to use more of your time that is healthy for you but anytime you are available and you want to hang with us we are just waiting for you yeah what I want to express is I'm very happy Nick and Ben to to correct that off-balance situation by doing extra classes for the people who who got classes cut because of it okay okay can't correct it we can add classes there's some of you haven't had classes for months okay all right thank you disappear you're gonna act smart and then we get the news yeah and then I'll do a Q&A after that for those of you who want to stick around thank you guess you Michael okay cool so friends I need your help it's not very interesting to hear me continue to talk I I got to say enough already so now I'd like to know what thoughts and and maybe just be thinking that especially on the Saturday class and the first Monday class while we're talking it'd be really cool if you make little notes to yourself about things that you could say during that 15 minute discussion that apply to your life and to the life of a an ordinary person like me just trying to be a good fella in the world how we can use this in that way and hopefully I've stalled long enough that you're ready now to give me some of your ideas right we talked about teaching for ourselves and teachings for other people how understanding the methods of inference or deduction and direct perception help us but we can help other people by understanding how to prove things or refute things is that helpful to anyone's life other than mine Kendra is a tough debater it's not that easy here to convince her of things I have to work very hard can you help me I would say Ben hi that uh and by the way if anybody has something that they want to say you can just straight up interrupt me and just start talking okay um in my experience I have a lot of friends you know who are into this stuff and really into you know Buddhist philosophy and different kinds of philosophy and then I have a lot of friends who are not and I think it's been really helpful for me over the years to like be able to support people when they're going through different kinds of things if they're not into studying this stuff by myself understanding different like levels of emptiness teachings that we've learned over the years because it's not always helpful and sometimes probably counterproductive to just jump right into describing emptiness like full-on or even the pen with people who who haven't asked to kind of to learn that who didn't subject themselves to it intentionally but when people are going through something hard I have found that you can use very small ideas that relate to emptiness to kind of nudge them toward thinking of how things have infinite potential or that they have potential especially that they can do whatever they want and and and just nudging them toward kindness also you know have you ever thought about just being a little less grumpy you know stuff like yeah yeah I find it to be useful almost daily actually to help people and help myself that's something I could use everybody's advice with is how to find that balance in terms of knowing when when my advice is even useful it seems like there's a progression here where before you start giving other people advice you should make sure you are someone whose advice is worth something and and I struggle with that I don't know at what point my advice is valuable or how much I should just be spending more time working on my own inference working on my own studies working on my own ability to see things clearly how do I know when when it's appropriate to to try to prove things to other people or deny their positions what what do I know do you want to have someone give you advice I wonder about what you hold is worthy of being held or should be refuted yeah I'm even asking for it so so what's your motivation when you are giving people you know these logical arguments I want I want you know as much as I can muster it I I'm I hope that I'm motivated I try to be motivated

[Speaker 3]
for us all to be happy yeah so it sounds to me like you're planting the right

[Speaker 2]
seeds yeah I mean I mean if if you are just normal Ben which I know you're not

[Speaker 1]
but I mean otherwise I mean if you're an enlightened being I'd say what's your problem you know go for it everything you do is for that purpose if you're not an enlightened being well then you just do your best you work on your motivation you work on your clarity of mind you work on those first chapters of Roman Antarctica yeah yeah yeah I think that's right just like when we study the perfections even though wisdom comes later you need a little bit of wisdom to be good at giving you kind of have to practice everything all at once to the best of your ability over and over yeah yeah and hopefully it gets better that way the spiral yeah and with some humility I hope you know a lot of the best advice I've gotten from friends started with I'm gonna give you my advice here but take it or leave it and I might be way out of line and don't be afraid to tell me if this isn't good advice and I often get good advice when it's when I hear that at the beginning yeah interesting cool yeah yeah people who are cautious about their certainty I have a let me add it at the end this may or may not be yeah what else anyone else thoughts on how to use what we've learned or how to use our understanding of logic or reality to help other people and help ourselves help ourselves to help other people is someone trying to speak I'll tell you my teacher wants me to encourage you to talk so if I end up doing all the talking I'm gonna look naughty so you have to save me from doing too much of the talking but you are doing a great kindness I have a question we also learned today about different degrees of emptiness yeah we did and I wonder if anybody could comment on a certain flavor of emptiness which is easier to teach to people who never heard of it than other kinds of emptiness okay yeah could be you Rob you know it's funny cuz did you unplug can you hear me yes okay so my nephew came here to visit last year and you know I've always been trying to figure out how to influence him I guess in like a good way since he's been like two and you know from letting him sit next to me during meditation or watch me keep my book or you know try not to use logic at like a restaurant when it's in my benefit generally it's kind of sadly it's usually when I'm like that doesn't make any sense but when he came to visit guess she Michael gave him a little it was like it took it takes an imprint of your finger that someone gave to him and he told him that when he goes to sleep at night whenever he does a good deed he can put an imprint in it so he could he because when you do it you see the you push into it and then there's your fingerprint and it reminds you of something good you did and I thought oh what such a good tool for like a little kid is to carry a little thing and just recently he told me hey I said hey buddy you doing anything anything cool and he's like and he pulled out the thing I guess you Michael gave him a year ago and he said it's my thumbprint because I did something good and I pushed it in there to remember so I thought man what a great tool you know other rather than just having him watch you I guess it was really smart I thought so we should send those to goodnight book club members that's brilliant and like yeah that's true I can um I'll take a picture of it and maybe we can I'll talk to shopping she usually gets everything done and maybe we'll make them for kids or something like that yeah what do you mean for kids I want one I'm not just a hair club vice president you know I'm also you're also a member what are easier ways of teaching emptiness and are they more accessible Tim's gonna tell us well I'm not sure if my advice is helpful or not suddenly I want to hear it the first thing that came to mind actually was just plain old kindness like I I don't I found I've tried to debate people I've tried to get I've gotten angry with people I've all of those things and I realized that people listen more when you've been kind first you know when when they trust they trust you through your kindness and it's not like a fake kindness of course but just because I think what emptiness really teaches you is to be kind like there isn't like that's the result of it yeah and then people will be are willing to you know ask more questions are like well why are you kind you know teach me something and then they're then they're like leave the wait for them to be available and to make people open their hearts first I think is the probably the easiest way to do it yeah no that's just kind of worked for me I'm not sure if it works for others yeah it's wonderful Benjamin Franklin's autobiography he talks about this political rival that he had and he he asked he asked him to borrow a book and instead of trying to do a favor for the rival he actually asked for a favor from the rival mm-hmm which he he said that it made him more kind towards me that there was something about getting someone else to be kind that actually the getting him to do a nice thing I could ask for something and and he happily lent me the book and we became friends and went on to work together later it stuck with me yeah that's that's advice that people give for people who are looking for work like you go and you you ask the interviewer like to talk about their successes in their in their life in their work like you know and they have a different connection to you when when you ask about things like that they give you something and but you yeah it's interesting for those who have job interviews coming up I'm not going anywhere I'm very happy with my job I see Juan Hasso in the Geshe Michael Roach seat yeah it's time okay it's time okay today we have to cut 530 sharp some other days will may extend but not today so I'll take you through some of the cool things that have been going on okay just before I start with that I'm today I'm using Pichiquino hope online can hear it if not please let me know and okay first picture please okay for those of you who have been considering going to Japan and helping with the Pichu World News volunteer program this is the last week to apply by the end of this week we should have everything ready and set up so it's your last chance to apply so far like I don't know I think between five and eight people have been shown interested so there is a limited amount of people who can help this time but there is pretty much unlimited people who can help in the future so there you go you still have a chance if you're just curious contact me I can tell you more as well okay I want to show you a very beautiful video of the celebration 30th anniversary of Geshe Michael becoming a Geshe it's just a short video if you like what you see you can go and see and look at the full video on the YouTube channel you follow the QR code but let's show the video so you get a little taste of how it was amazing very beautiful thank you Geshe Michael we are waiting for a video and I will have to do something about it oh no I didn't know that's great today we have to cut five very sharp I was thinking two things I'd like to say and then I think that's enough one is I didn't I never thought of getting a Geshe degree I never was thinking about it I just wanted to learn everything so you know I just kept studying with my teacher and one day they said you know you can get a Geshe if you want and I'm like oh okay I mean I wasn't trying to get a Geshe degree and I just was so having fun with my teacher and learning with my teacher and I think maybe that's how you get a Geshe degree you don't worry about it you don't think about it and then one day they say okay so I think the main thing is to have fun with your teacher and your friends and have a lot of fun studying that that's one thing the other is recently I was writing the biography of Randhawa who was some compass teacher and you know seeing how he put together the Geshe course so really some copper was following his teacher who studied the major five books of the Geshe course okay so if you want to watch the full speech you can follow the QR code or find it in the YouTube channel I'll share it also in the telegram chat groups groups and the one and what's up chat groups chat groups okay we're very happy to say that our friends in Latin America have accomplished so far three visits to Latin America one was to Paraguay just like a few I think that was two months ago but just this week they finished the visit to Peru Paraguay was Rosalia Barbara and Enrique Montelos and then in Peru which is the next picture it was Sofia and and Lucia they are mother and daughter they just finished this week and also Colombia visited by Aldo and Paulina and one of the local organizers Lucero there she made a very cool video using AI I hope you can appreciate it check the subtitles and the lyrics so it's a Colombia video let's go for it and I will encourage the tech table to start having the third video ready as well

[Speaker 2]
the talk what fills your soul something real a true gesture give your help with compassion let your deeds shine through before you sleep review all that you gave today rejoicing service feel it deep how wonderful that chance came your way plant the seeds four steps four gifts we need plant and for sure it will bloom

[Speaker 1]
I guess that was Lucero using AI making a wonderful song that maybe we come to play sometime we'll see all right uh what time is it okay we have two more minutes i think we can still make it before our interview really really quick lady niguma tree also send a video they have a program in in turkey and they just finished l came back victorious home and now we want to show you a video of a little bit of what they had over there so next video please

[Speaker 2]
hope you enjoy and then we'll move on to our interview in the meantime uh mr hoffo where can

[Speaker 1]
okay congratulations so i think the main production was done by pink diamond maria and peter and along of course with the ysi team so congratulations and thank you for having shared the video let's move on to just super quickly the pictures and then our guests pictures pictures please diamond in kyoto the door to diamond way for december 11 to 15 coming up you know that but what you may not know is that ben and kendra are about to shoot their learn the art of debating kyoto and you're gonna be able to watch online as well with that cure code you will know more soon then the ska program is gonna happen two days three days before the five houses event and the same hotel so if you come earlier probably you can attend and there is this poster about how the program is gonna be like okay inambio thank you we have four minutes to go with you so they did a great event the other month in montenegro and then they want to replicate the program in chicago and for that they are here with us to tell us what are they planning to do tech table please if you can help me or inna or bill can you raise your hand online and then our tech table will be able to help you out sorry hon it looks like they're not here it is doing a retreat oh who knows what may happen yeah but all right if they are not here i guess we can just chill or we can now i wanted to share some news as well then we can chill oh yeah cancel let's let's go back to the song plant plant plant the seeds no utpala do you wanted to say something that you got caught before oh no it got answered in the chat people were looking for where they could get this song oh yeah okay okay okay i just got last minute news i'm gonna add a picture that i want to show you to invite you to the next blue sky blue what's that blue sky blue friends blue sky friends uh just one second because this upcoming friday there is a session coming up late by jikme and and there is a group of wednesday that's also i didn't know about that but let me show you okay i'm gonna send to tech table marina this picture in whatsapp if you can help me to show it that'll be amazing and we have just one more minute so hopefully we can make it i can share it but this is a computer that it's broadcasting so i need the picture here that's why okay let's see marina did you were able to find it in your awesome thank you yay so this friday november 21st jikme will be leading this sorry our friend ellie will be leading this session using compassion to turn pain into power very beautiful i like the picture and then you say that wednesday you will be having is the next picture also a session right okay that was it for today thank you very much uh i'm gonna share all these things in the telegram chat group as well so no worries and also the youtube channel so let's go to the q a with niklas shaw thank you so much thanks so much