Бен Крамер — Книга 2: Драгоценность истинной мысли (Геше Йеше Вангчук о Дхармакирти), занятие 52

[Speaker 1]
Hey everybody. It's about that time. Ben looks like he's like 23 in that picture, right?

So we have an exciting class today with the good and great Ben Kramer and Geshe Michael. I wouldn't call him great. I mean, goodness, okay.

The good and sometimes very good. Well, we're here for logic. Are you warming up the surf for us?

Oh yeah, just warming up. The waves have been really flat actually. Yeah, that's the kind of like...

I can brag about going surfing. Let's get you in there. We'll make it a point to go check Del Mar today just to make sure that everything looks okay, tip top for you.

Dr. Kramer, are you ready? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, this and then I'm sharing my screen.

Whoops, that's the wrong one. This is the right one. Does that look like homework?

Yeah, unfortunately. Okay, I am... I'm reading, nobody tell Geshe Michael, but I'm recycling a homework from our last team class because I think it's the right one to wrap.

But that means maybe you could answer the questions. We'll see. My cup.

Yes. It is necessarily the case that maybe you can. While typically authors use logic or scripture to prove points, the section we covered in our previous class with Geshe Michael suggested another method for making a point other than scripture or logic.

Give the West Chinese for logic, for scripture, and for this other method, this third method. It gets so, you know, it's not quiet when we meditate before this class, and then when you ask a question it gets perfectly quiet. Okay, this is very new information.

The other method, no, no, I see some guesses. I see Nick looking off into the distance like it'll be revealed. Do you know, you don't remember?

No, I thought you were thinking. He's checking to see if Amalie knows the answer. Is it...

Remember? No, it's not. But Paula, would you help again?

I did hear you. You see it directly. Oh, yeah, yeah, direct perception.

Um, he actually discusses at length. Oh, sorry, you didn't give me... Everybody shout out the West Chinese.

Rick Lung. I'll take it. Right.

Yes, sounds good. Okay. Yeah, sounds good.

So speaking of direct perception, how would direct perception conflict with the reasoning that I'm... Myra Bylan grown from a field watered with milk must be sweet by virtue of being a Myra Bylan. What'd you say?

Because I ate one that was sour last week. Yeah, I think that's fine to say. If you ate one that was sour, that would be direct perception that contradicted it.

I don't believe you. But yeah, generally, that's the idea. What's the...

Yeah, you want to give West Chinese for a field watered with milk? Omei Xing or something? Yeah, right.

Good. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, you just got to chew it.

But yes. Right. So we taste these Myra Bylan for ourselves and we see that some are sweet and some are sour depending on the season or how you grew it or where it was grown.

And so here in this case, direct perception would contradict saying that all of them have to be sweet. Okay, Sanskrit name and West Chinese maybe for the outcasts. The school we're calling the outcasts.

This is a school who doesn't believe in past lives. They don't believe in karma. They don't believe in...

I don't think they even believe in logic. So this shouldn't work on them anyway. But yes.

Chakravarta's, Jankrata's. That's right. How many of us are frozen?

Is it just Gishan, Michael? Uh-oh. He doesn't like when we talk about the joke.

Understandable. What invisible entity do they say is present in the four elements? Consciousness.

Yay, thank you. What other position are they famous for that suggesting an invisible entity like that should conflict with? For example, and maybe I could have phrased it better.

There's no future lives? No, there's something else that they say doesn't exist because they can't see it. Even though here they're saying something does exist that you can't see.

Omniscience. Yeah, great. I like it.

And even not just omniscience, but you could say the like omniscience knowledge of maybe something in particular if you want to get fancy. Sir, the 14 questions that were not answered. Yeah, right.

Yeah, so it's basically and I'm kind of stalling a little bit now because we're going to need the Boston in a minute for real. No, it's great. Let's we're all friends here.

Let's chat. Make us a new quiz. Yeah, great.

Let me get started on that. Oh, good. I can make a multi-level list of some kind.

I don't know why that's there. Anyway, yeah, specifically that he had no answer that the omniscient one didn't have an answer to the 14 questions. He didn't know an answer to those because they didn't hear him say anything.

So he must not have known the answer. Well, that's problematic. Yeah, I know.

I know how many fingers I'm holding up right now, but I'm not going to tell you. I don't even need omniscience. All right, now we're in a pickle.

I don't know. Do you want to write to our friends or something and see if they're okay? Who's in the room?

Maybe Tim? Oh, are they over at Tim's somewheres? I don't know the answer to that.

I mean, it appeared that they're at a house as opposed to Geshe Michael being at his house, right? I think all of that seems reasonable to say. Yeah.

Let's see what's going on. Yeah. Okay, I don't see them.

Oh, maybe it's Tim. Hey, look, it's you.

[Speaker 3]
Good.

[Speaker 1]
Good, you made it just in time to be done with the homework. I thought you were covering the word Mooney. Oh, we did.

Actually, believe it or not, that is sort of what we covered. We were just saying that those silly outcasts suggest that there is invisible awareness in the elements, even though they say that the Omniscient One couldn't have known answers to the 14 questions because they didn't hear them, because he was being a Mooney. So now things get nasty.

Mooney, Mooney, Mooney. Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney. Mooney, Mooney.

Oh, Geshe Michael, you have to look at mine. Oh, I'm working on it. Please read, Mr. Ben. Okay. Okay. Oh, this is tough.

You know, I went and got a thing here, because we had this thing before, and I had to theorize a little bit about what a Dushing Sakpa is, and this came up in my book. Okay. And my cockamamie theory is that they believe that both Tsaweerangchen Tsolo, right, whatever nature or primordial nature, and also Kyebu, the self or something, Purusha and Prakrti, are things that have a self-nature.

And one of those things is the collection of all the material stuff in the universe, and the other is awareness. And so I guess the idea here maybe is that an all-inclusive collection would somehow describe Rangchen Tsolo, and that is a thing with a self, and they don't see it among things that don't have a self-nature or a dogma. Well, here's how I take this one, okay?

And I feel happy because that suddenly occurred, I think you understood it finally, the other day when I was working on your book. So Trangchenpa is a non-Buddhist school, right? Sankhya, the numerous guys.

And then they have two arguments, okay? Number one, can you see the yogurt, potential for yogurt which is in a glass of milk, can you see it directly with your eyes? Can't see it.

And yeah, and they say you cannot see it, but we accept that it has it. Okay, you cannot confirm it with your senses, but we believe milk does have the potential for yogurt within it. Therefore, we do believe that there are cases where you observe the general object, and you can believe that there's something about it that's there, even though you can't confirm it with your eyes.

You can't see the yogurt in the milk, okay? So then in theory, they should apply that to emptiness. They should apply the same logic.

Even though you can't see it directly, it's still there. And then we say, okay, well, let's consider things that are components of atoms, for example. So in the Abhidharma especially, what is real?

What is most real? Smallest moments of time and smallest pieces of matter. That's reality.

And science would say that, okay? So can you see the lack of self-nature in things that are bigger than that? Like in pieces of potato, or can you see within them that they have no self-nature because they are conglomerates?

Can you see it with your eyes? No. With your eyes?

No, you can't see it, okay? So they say, because you cannot see it with your eyes, it's not there. And then we say, well then yogurt's not in milk.

And they say it's not parallel reasoning. And that's the point of this sentence, yeah. It's contradictory.

Gelwa here at the end means, you say there can be yogurt in milk, even though it's not directly observable. But then you say there cannot be a lack of a self-nature. Within accumulations of tiniest parts, even though you also can't see it, it's not there.

You disagree with the Buddhists that conglomerates of atoms lack a self-nature because you cannot confirm it. But you still agree there's yogurt in milk even though you cannot confirm it. So make up your mind.

You know, if it's unconfirmable, is it not there? Because that's your position with emptiness. Are you going to take the same position with yogurt?

And if you don't, then you're contradictory. That's the gelwa at the end here. So it's a pretty cool argument, actually.

And he's going to repeat it, I think, in the next sentence. He's going to repeat that thing. He's going to repeat the same argument.

Are you saying if you can't see it, it could still be there? Or are you saying if you can't see it, it's definitely not there? Because you go both ways, with milk and with atoms, molecules.

He's criticizing the Sankhyas. We don't believe you're a Buddhist, no self-nature. Why?

We can't see it in these conglomerates. And then he says, well, then there's no yogurt in milk. For the same reason, you can't see it.

But no, we agree there's yogurt in milk. Well, then you should agree to no self-nature, which you also can't see. OK, something like that.

I like it. Pretty cute. This is the third or fourth of these he did, but I think he goes on now.

He doesn't repeat it again. I think he hasn't. Oh, I see.

OK. Yeah, OK. He went on.

We did have those previously. The one we had in the homework, you say there's awareness in the four elements, even though you can't see it. But you also say the Buddha didn't know the answer to the 14 questions because he didn't speak.

OK. OK. That's parallel, I thought.

This was, I don't know, this was a little hard because I had to find the previous section. So this seems overly elaborative, but... Yeah.

Just on the face value of it, it's OK. OK, OK. Proving a negative thing.

Yeah. Yeah, right. It's a little bit tricky because it's proving it's positive and kakpa is negative.

Proving a negative thing. Can you prove a negative thing? Can you establish the non-existence?

Yes. OK. Which is kind of the milk art.

Yogurt. Oh, yeah, right. This was the, I guess because we had this earlier, this was like, what is proved by our, the kakpa we've been doing, because we've been trying to disprove that you could prove the negative necessity.

We've been denying you could prove the negative necessity by simply failing to observe the reason in the dissimilar case. Right? OK.

And then there's supposed to be like, what was proved, what we came to by proving that, and then... Yeah, OK. What you establish within denial.

Yeah, right. Yeah, OK, cool. And then three sections within that.

Can you ask someone to read, Dr. Bin? Yes. OK, maybe whoever's humming would like to read.

We had some background noise here. Let's see. Lindsay, are you there?

Yeah, she's here. Great, great, great. She just finished a successful rock concert tour of Asia and Mexico.

Hey, Bin, you got the plan. She said groupa. OK.

[Speaker 3]
Sorry, Bin.

[Speaker 1]
It's OK, you fixed it.

[Speaker 3]
OK.

[Speaker 2]
And then you lapsed back to group.

[Speaker 1]
But yeah, good, good, good. Yeah. She wraps up in the group.

OK. She had a relapse. A group relapse.

A relapse. OK. Yeah.

Yeah, OK, good. The question that's coming up here is, if you say there's no orange apples, OK, let's take apples, they can't be orange. OK, then do you have to check every apple?

There is. You see what I mean? Or can you establish things through principles?

You see what I mean? Do you have to... Can you take a small group of apples and say, OK, there's no orange apples, or something like that?

Or do you actually have to travel around the world and check every apple? Mi tun chok. Mi tun chok means the ones that don't fit.

They're ruled that apples should be red or green. How do you responsibly come to the conclusion that something's not the case? Without confirming it with every possible instance of that case, of not being a case.

OK, that's all. And that's a big, big question in logic. You know, like you could say there's no green, if it's based on a set that's too small, where they're all red, you know.

And then you'd be making a mistake. So do you actually have to go around the whole world and check all the apples to say those apples are red? OK, something like that.

He's going to get into that. While Lindsay's next to you, maybe we could have her do one more. OK, Lindsay, go ahead.

[Speaker 3]
OK.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, no, nice, yeah. So the idea is drac chenpoy dak de chepay che. Let's take sound.

It's changing because it's made. Then do you have to check all the things in the universe that are not changing? Or can you just make a general principle from the dokya, which means if it's produced, it must be changing.

Can you use the dokya? Can you use the khyabpa? Can you use the relationship between the reason and the quality which you're asserting as a general principle?

And then rather than checking all the possible instances of that thing, because that's what logic is all about. You can't... direct observation would be to travel around the world and try to see every apple.

And then logic would be to establish rules that if this is here, then this is here. Or if this is here, this is not here. And then believe that those rules will handle every case.

So here when he talks about jelwa, connection, it means the connection between the third part of the reason and the second part of the reason. If something is made, it's impermanent. In the case of the famous example, right?

Okay, that's all. Okay. Thank you for your homework.

Thank you. That's like when they say, thank you for your... So Ben, something happened to me.

I got frustrated with your book. And I was like, I don't know where... I'm sorry.

And I don't know what's going on. And then, because it's been so slow, and it's so complex. And that's one thing.

And then I was also wondering how many years we have to wait for your first volume of this book. And I was trying to estimate when we could put out a book, because we're kind of... Everyone has put out a book.

All the translators have put out a book, except Tim, who started late. And I'm starting to look forward to second books for people. And when is the second book coming out for Ben Kramer?

Maybe your book was first? I don't remember. But...

Which one was the first one? Utpalas. Utpalas, yeah.

So anyway, I was getting frustrated with your book. And there's one big frustration I have. The reason we're studying Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk's treatment of Dharmakirti is that every time I need to understand a verse of Dharmakirti, which you cannot understand without a commentary.

It's impossible. Almost no verse in Dharmakirti's huge work can be understood without a commentary. But if you do a search, if you do a gopher search on all the pramana books in our database, you always hit Yeshe Wangchuk.

Like three quarters of the time you hit one person who explains it clearly. And we kept hitting the same guy over and over and over again, which is a sign that you should stop doing whatever you're doing and translate that one. And that's the principle we did with Xiaoping's text.

Her second text is the book where I find all the answers about Vinaya. So I decided, finally, we've got to translate this one. Then when we got into Yeshe Wangchuk's commentary, so far he has not explained the verses word by word.

And then it seems like he got partly into his commentary and changed his strategy. And it bothers me. It really bothers me.

Because this was going to be the book that helped everybody understand pramana. And he's not going that way. He's doing just theory, and very obscure theory, without enough material to understand what he's talking about.

And I was like, wow, I felt let down. So then I decided I'd like to... We've been on this one for four years or something?

And I don't have a feeling for it. And it's frustrating for me. So I decided I'd like to write out the outline of it and see if that helps.

And it helped a lot. It was like... What do you call it?

Revelation. It was like a revelation. So the reason I did that was that we're doing a new Nagarjuna book called The Letter to a Friend.

We're doing the commentary by Tsongkapa's teacher Rendawa. And Nick and I are working on it. And Nick has been working on the outline.

And it helps a lot. The outline helps a lot. So he's halfway through the outline.

We're putting the outline in the book. And then I thought maybe an outline of Ben's book would help. And I worked on it last night.

I worked on it until 9.59. And I finished it at 9.59. And then I thought, let's go there. And it helps a lot. So I did part of it.

But I'm going to ask Ben to translate it. So I'm going to go to that outline. Switch back to the Wi-Fi.

I've got to switch Wi-Fi. So I might lose you. Diamond Sky?

Or Starlink? Diamond Sky. 4K.

Okay. You still got me? Yes.

Yeah, it will come back. Okay. So can you see the words topical outline that I'm showing?

You haven't shared it. I haven't shared it. Let me go share first.

This one, right? So Ben, I thought we could... Yes, we see it.

I thought we could go through it. You could kind of translate it as we go. And it's going to help everybody.

They're requesting a bypass. What should I do? Allow?

Okay. So I think this is going to help a lot, Ben. I did the outline up to where we are last night just for fun.

Right. And, you know, okay? Yes.

And it helped me guess when we could put out your first book. Okay. So let's go to...

This is the outline. And the problem is his book has been so slow that it's impossible to keep in mind where we are or why we are. And now I think this will help a lot.

So I'm going to ask Ben... You want to have somebody read? Sure.

Don't worry, we'll give you a bunch, Dodo. I know it's little chunks. Hang on.

Where is Ben? He was mad because he saw just, you know, three words and he thought his thoughts were underutilized. Which one?

Oh, yeah. Dodo's always smiling. He never gets upset.

Okay. Here we go. Dodo.

NU'U DRIG BYAG So I wrote the English there. I didn't translate much. That's when they bow down before the book.

It could be the translator's prostration. It could be the author's prostration. Okay.

I added that one. When it's in brackets I added it. Then what?

Can you read this one, Dodo? PHYO BRJUD PHYO BRJUD, yeah. And that's traditional, that you say all the lamas of this logic tradition are cool, thank you.

And it's called the offering of praise. Standard preliminaries. He doesn't even comment on it, he just runs through it.

Next one, Dodo. SANG PA'I DANG SBYAL Yeah, sometimes it's called SONG BAR, sometimes it's called TZAM BAR. Our author calls it TZAM BAR.

TZAM means to initiate something, or here it means to start the work, compose the book. And DANG BYA means make a promise, like DAM TSIG. Okay, so those three I just threw in there, they're not part of his outline.

But they are part of the outline. Ben, who's going to read this one? Okay, last one, Dodo.

You get an actual sentence and then you're fired. Especially if you do well. TSE MA'I KHOR GYI RGYA RGAL KHYE PA'I SHUNG CHI TZAM YUL PA Perfect, you're fired.

Hey Ben, you want to translate? Yeah, this is the, you know, who were the Indian masters who wrote in Sanskrit on the topic of accurate perception? Perfect, okay.

Which Indian masters wrote what great books about Pramana? And we finished that. You may remember, we struggled through that.

Long list of names and books without much else. Who's going to read the next one, Ben? Ulala, do you want to read?

Ulala. Yes, thank you. Okay, nice.

By the way, Ulala, where are you? In Germany. Okay, I've got to send you an email.

Hasa's trying to swim across the Atlantic. Thank you, Ben. Okay, last hour, Ben.

Yeah, translators of those books into Western Chinese language. Yeah, good, yeah. So that was a really dry section about the names of the translators.

When they get to our names, a hundred years from now, they will say the same. Really? Let's go on to the real book.

Who's next, Ben? How about Tin? Yes, teacher.

Yeah, and thank you, Tim, for a good helping in Vietnam. It was nice to see you, and you really helped us a lot, as usual. Ben.

Yeah, the masters of Western China who wrote, yeah, enumerating or counting the masters from there who wrote on the topic of accurate perception. Yeah, why is nam chung a little bit unusual word here? I'm excited for you to tell me.

Nah, come on. What is nam chung usually? I don't know why.

It can mean synonyms or verbs. Yeah, nam chung often means synonyms or different verbs. And here it's just used in more of a metaphorical sense, you know.

Who are the synonymous authors? They're not really synonymous. In Tibet, who wrote commentaries on Pramana?

What's the selection of West Chinese who wrote on Pramana? Okay. Who's going to read the next one, Ben?

By the way, Ben, your homework is to fill in all these translations for next class. Okay, fine. Okay, yes, that's fine.

Yeah, great. Let's see. Oh, boy, I'm going to need...

Word, are you available to help me? To read or to find someone to read? Oh, of course, someone to read.

Okay. Hey, Word, did your retreat start? It's happening right now again.

Okay, good luck. He's in a place called Tepoztlan outside of Mexico City with like 30 students doing a retreat. Beautiful.

[Speaker 2]
Yay.

[Speaker 1]
Thanks, Ben. Nguyen. Is she there?

No? Maybe not. My Lien.

Yes? Please read.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Yay. Word's showing off his great students. Chedak tu, Ben?

Chedak tu, detailed. Yeah, now to go into more detail, we are going to... Denlabep.

We're going to present... Yeah, just to say. Yeah.

Denlabep. The meaning of the commentary on accurate perception, that vast commentary. Yeah, we're going to...

Yeah, good. It's cute, because he... What's the...

There's a... There's a... What do you call that?

There's a contrast that he's using in this sentence. Where is it? Well, it's chung tse and gyepa.

Good, exactly. Which means what? It means we're going to have a little presentation of that huge commentary.

Yeah, right, good. Yeah, so that's very important to translate it into English properly, as you appreciate when the Tibetan author is being cute. He said, yeah, we're going to just say a little tiny bit about that unbelievably vast book.

Okay? Something like that. But you have to bring it out in the translation.

And by the way, so it's kind of... Typically, in a Buddhist book, the outline is skewed. They are not equal parts.

You've got three tiny sections treating the history of the commentarial tradition. And then the fourth section, which in a Western outline should be balanced with the other three, to be considered equal sections. The first section takes a few sentences.

The second section takes a few sentences. As you can see from the page numbers, two pages on the first section, one page on the second section, two pages on the third section, and then something like a thousand pages on the fourth section. So they're rarely balanced in a Western outline style.

And what happens is that translators who don't understand that will devote a whole chapter to the first three here. They'll give chapter headings in their translation. And then the fourth chapter will be a thousand pages long.

And they often do that. Western translators don't understand that they are not meant in a Western outline way. They are not equal weight.

The fourth one is 99% longer. You have to break up the fourth one. You have to make the first three part of the introduction or something.

Who's next, Ben Kramer? Who's next? Let me see.

Nguye, you're back?

[Speaker 2]
Yes. Thank you, teacher.

[Speaker 1]
Nice. Nice pronunciation. Ben?

Yeah, some words on how awesome these authors are. Yeah, good. How awesome the authors are.

Who's going to read next?

[Speaker 3]
Nguye. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Which Ben means? We're going to talk about how awesome Master Dignaga is. Good.

Yeah, so he's talking about several awesomenesses here. Nguye, number two, here. Ben?

We're going to talk about how awesome the author of this particular text we're talking about is. By the way, his name is Dharmakirti. Nice.

Nguye, one more.

[Speaker 3]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, we're even going to talk about how great Mr. Indradeva is, or something, and his buddies. Yeah, I think it's Devendra Boody or something like that. Which are not very well-known commentators who came later.

So you can see the balance here. He spent five pages on Dignaga, and then he spent 16 pages on Dharmakirti, and then he's going to spend two pages on everybody who came after them. And that's about how it should be weighted.

All right. Who's going to read next, Mr. Benward? Nice job, Nguye.

Nice job, Ming-Lin. I think Chloe wants to read. Chloe!

She's begging to read. She was crying. Hello.

Thank you. Hey, Benkhever, what's juk in Yiddish? Roach.

Cockroach, yeah. I'm just checking. I only learned that from you, I have to say.

I don't know other curse words in Yiddish. We've been following that for 19 years in the Dharmakirti.

[Speaker 3]
Juk-che, juk-cha, chema, nam-jrel, kyi, song-ben, shong, dong, ben-la, jrel, deppa.

[Speaker 1]
Stay because this is too short to get out. Ben, translate. Let's dive in to a presentation on the meaning of this book, The Commentary on Accurate Perception.

Nice. Perfect. Very nice.

She's going to read, Chloe's going to read one more. We met a Chloe in Vietnam.

[Speaker 2]
Right? Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Wink, wink. Okay. Too much information.

Okay, Ben. Ben? We're going to explain the meaning in a general summary.

Good. Yeah, first we'll get a general summary of Dharmakirti's book. Dharmakirti's book is massive.

Huge. People don't even bother to memorize it. It's one of the five great texts, but it's too much.

If you debated every year of your Dishi program 25 years, you will not get past the first chapter. Wow. Keep going, Chloe.

[Speaker 3]
Okay. Ben?

[Speaker 1]
What's the title mean? Yeah, keep going. Gyor gyi chak.

Translator makes their prostration. Yeah, yeah, good. The translator is going to prostrate.

And keep going.

[Speaker 3]
Tsen gyi rung rung.

[Speaker 1]
Ben? The meaning of the book that has that name that we just explained. Yeah.

And again, the Tibetan outlines are unbalanced. Tsen gyi dun, the meaning of the name Pramanavartika, takes about two lines. Gyor gyi chak, the translator's prostration, the translator from Sanskrit into Tibetan language, takes about less than a page.

And then tsen chen gyi shung dun, the meaning of the classic which has the name, takes a rest of your life. Takes about two pages. Again, the Tibetan outlines are not balanced normally.

And you cannot make the divisions of your translation based on those. Chloe, let's do these last three.

[Speaker 3]
She pala drupa.

[Speaker 1]
Mr. Ben? Beginning the explanation. Yeah, and then Nick, what's happening with the outline here?

You mean what you're listing? Now we're getting into the verses, so you're mentioning which verses come within this section, as well as the previous section. Mixed nuts top of the outline standard.

Give the native page number. And then give the verse where there's a root text. Tell us that the root text has been inserted into his commentary.

This is the first place so far. We've gone 32 pages, which is 240 pages normally in English. And he has finally given us the first two verses of the root text of the Pramana Vartika.

Ben, here's a question. Can I ask you what does VV stand for?

[Speaker 3]
Sorry.

[Speaker 1]
It's the standard for verses, meaning plural. Yeah. Question, Ben, why did we put page 32 instead of folio 32?

Oh, this is a printed Western-style book in its original form. Yeah. The first printing of this book ever done was not a carving.

It was a Western book. Okay, and we worked on it with him. So, you know, it's unusual to see an outline that has a P instead of an F because there has never been a carving of this, probably will never be.

Okay, all right. Which means, Ben, when you think about weighting amounts of material, with a folio you get typically eight pages of English, front and back side, total eight pages. With a page, you're probably going to get a lot less.

It might be four or something. We'll see. Okay.

Okay. All right. Chloe, two more.

This is a thorough explanation or a close explanation or something? Yeah. I forget the name.

It's just like Upa or something. Okay. He's going to set forth the explanation.

Okay, he's going to set forth the explanation. And then... Yeah, how does the explanation conclude?

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And then, Ben, what's difficult and what messed us up, these three categories are not real categories. They're just a light review of the whole content of the book. He's going to tell us how he got into the explanation, how he presents the explanation, and then how he completes the explanation.

But that's only going to be two or three pages of general discussion of the pattern of his methodology, of Dharmakirti's methodology. It is not the actual explanation itself. So that's confusing.

So far we haven't reached the real text. He just says, when we do get to the real text, it's going to have these three sections. Okay.

Now, Ben. Yeah, yeah. In the book, he says, now we get to part two.

The only part two he's mentioned so far is Tathagatpa, which means a logical deconstruction of the whole thing. Okay? Yes, yes.

And this is wrong, okay? It is not the next section. Okay?

It's something else, and he doesn't state it clearly. Okay? This Tathagatpa starts 110 pages later.

Okay, okay. His deconstruction... Yeah, I hit it.

[Speaker 2]
You checked that? I hit it.

[Speaker 1]
I was like, what the heck are you doing down here? Okay. So this is wrong.

Number two does not have a title. It's probably the actual commentary or something like that. Okay.

But what I discovered, and I want to tell you so you think about it. Yeah. After doing the outline of everything we've done from the last four or five years, you know, yesterday, I just spent...

I got into it. I outlined the whole thing. Then I hit the Tathagatpa.

Then I hit the logical treatment. And then I believe he starts his real explanation. Okay.

Okay? And I think everything we've been working on is just introduction. And that's why we couldn't understand anything, because he wasn't explaining the verses.

And what he's famous for, why we're using Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk when there are thousands of other pages of commentary since the 11th century or something, he really treats it word by word. He really goes through word by word. And then he didn't in the work we've done for the last four years.

And what I discovered was he's going to start over again. After 150 pages, he's going to start over again, word by word. And this is all just, you know, giving you an overview of the book.

He's basically just giving you an overview of the book, which you're not supposed to understand word by word, because he didn't explain it word by word. So we've been in a really difficult explanation of the general ideas without the verses. Okay?

Okay. And when you get to page 147, which at this speed will take another four years, you'll start the work. So Ta Chepa here, or whatever happens on page 34, it's not Ta Chepa.

No, it's not. It's not. And because the topics here, I'm just scrolling down under Ta Chepa here.

Like the topics here do follow what we've been covering, right? The other page numbers below are correct. Yeah.

This is the outline exactly we've been covering. He's going to do a topical outline discussion of the whole book, and then he's going to start the commentary on page 147. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
So he's kind of just...

[Speaker 1]
He's still not going fast enough to cover... He's not going fast enough to cover the whole book by 147. No, he will.

He did. He does. Or maybe the first chapter.

Maybe the first chapter. Maybe the first chapter. Okay.

But when I realize his strategy, I think now I understand his strategy. I may be wrong, but now I understand his strategy. He's going to give us a review of the ideas, and then he's going to start the commentary.

Uh-huh. So we're going through a review of the ideas without the root text, and it's very difficult. It's very confusing.

So I'm just saying that when we hit the root text at page 147, which is probably 900 pages in English, he'll start his commentary. Okay. Which raises the issue, boss, like, you know, how can we have a...

How can we put out that first book? Because we didn't really know what the first book meant because we translated the first book without having read the part that explains the first book that we already translated. Exactly.

Should we jump there and do that? I'm tempted... A very serious answer for you.

I'm tempted to skip 147 now.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
I'll do whatever you want. And then come back and put out this volume first. But let me confirm that my theory is correct before we do that.

But let's go through the outline for this. Yeah, cool. Which I continued up to where we have reached.

I wrote the whole thing down. And then I left it to you to translate. Okay.

Did you take this outline from the book or you just made it yourself? No, no, no. I took it from the book.

Yeah, I took it from the book. It's like at the beginning of the work. Yeah.

This is... No, it's sprinkled throughout the four years of work that we've done. We just went through so slow we couldn't see the outline.

Okay. But this is his outline according to him. Okay?

I didn't impose it on him. Right. I'm just following him.

Right. Okay. But he doesn't give this a name.

We'll have to see. It's some kind of... No, he didn't.

I remember that. I remember that.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's some kind of overview.

[Speaker 1]
It just seemed like what it would have to be. It's an overview of the whole book. And then he comes back to the commentary.

I believe. He goes back so that you think at 147 you caught him going to the first verse again. Well, I found Thachepa.

Yeah. I didn't have time. It was...

Oh, I see. My computer went away.

[Speaker 2]
That's okay. Of course.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Good for you. That's good.

I gotta confirm that he does cover the verses there. Okay. But let's do this.

I think treating the outline is going to give us a better understanding of what the heck's been going on for four years. Because it's been so slow that we couldn't see your patterns. So who's going to read next, Dan?

Oh, it's great. Someone was talking for one minute. Yeah, we are.

In that case, I have a suggestion since it's natural. Why don't you work up to these three stars, okay, Ben? Okay, so the three stars.

The three stars in an outline means the outline gets so deep that I start over again on the left side. You see what I mean?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, interesting.

[Speaker 1]
Because there's no room on the page on the right. Yeah. And then it goes again, and it shrinks again, and then I start another star.

Okay, so you please translate these sections up to the first three stars. And show it to Nick every once in a while, because he's learned how to do these outlines. Okay?

Okay, sounds good. All right. Now we're going to have a 15-minute discussion led by, am I right, Ben Kramer?

How the heck you can use this in your real life. Like, don't talk to your wife until you make sure the outline's over. And grandpa's going to go sit down and relax.

Okay, good luck, Ben. Okay, thank you so much. I got to take you, Nick.

Wow. Okay. I don't want to interrupt the flow of people who are eager to share the ways in which this obviously applies to our life.

Yeah. What do you think? Great, Ulla.

Bless your heart. Jump on in here. I thought maybe I'd help out a little.

And I actually have two things that I'd like to share. Because, you know, in an outline we have all different kind of aspects. And those that echoed in my heart so much were we were dwelling quite a while on the amazingness of different people.

And I thought that's so beautiful. And I feel that I should do that much more. And just hang out and, you know, oh, that guy's wonderful.

They do, you know, the rejoicing of other people. That was really, really sweet and told me something for today. And then the second part is, you know, the teaching is sometimes out of what the pages are saying.

So what I take out for me is sometimes when we get stuck or lost or frustrated by what is happening right now, we have to be brave enough or open enough to step back. Look at the big picture of what is actually happening. And then I thought a current situation can be really frustrating.

But then when we step back, we see our wish, right, that what leads us to the bigger picture and to the actual goal of finishing the book of this difficult thing called Samsara. So I think it's really nice to just lean back sometimes and say, like, where are we actually heading to? And then we get our strength back and motivation and then we can go back to the text or to whatever frustrating thing is going on.

And then it's not so hard anymore. So that was what was it for me. Thank you, Ula.

That's really great. I appreciate that. I think it's one of, I don't know, one of the ways that I've tried to have a marriage is this thing about just like hanging out in the good qualities of someone and spending time praising people, spending time thinking about people's good qualities.

There's this podcast guy that I like, Ezra Klein, that I listen to sometimes. He said a really beautiful thing that stuck with me. He said attention, that he's more and more convinced that attention is the most important human resource and that in the end of your life, if you're looking back to see what was your life, it's the sum total of the things that you paid attention to.

And I thought about what I pay attention to. And then how much of this time could we spend lingering on the good qualities of people? And then what is your experience of that person?

You see, it's like the sum total of the thoughts that you had about that person. And that is who they are for you. And they might be something else to someone else.

But for you, they are the sum total of the thoughts that you've had about who they are. And if you hang out and think about how wonderful they are, and especially in a marriage. I remember him teaching this very early on in my following him around as much as I could.

And I met Kendra at that time. He actually gave a talk. This is a little bit cool and a little bit embarrassing.

But I met Kendra at a talk he was giving on spiritual partnerships back in 1932 or whatever. And this is one of the things that stuck with us was this idea about listing the good qualities. You could make the other list, you see.

You can list someone's bad qualities. You can totally do it. But don't.

Just make the nice list. Just sit there making the nice list. And you could make the other list.

And just don't make the other list. Just don't do it. So yeah, it's a great use of our...

Maybe he should have spent more of the book on it. Especially praising the translators. What else could someone share?

That would be awesome. I'm sorry. There's a glitch.

If you all put your hands up at once, the system cancels them out. So you could just... One at a time is fine.

Yeah, I think planning is great. I've tried to be very organized in my life. And I think there's a...

I don't know. Almost like a Buddhist hippie thing that you hear people get into. Where they're just like, I'm just in the now, man.

You know? I don't plan, brother. You just got to be like...

And it's also okay to plan in the now. What do you mean by you people? I'm not accusing Nick of being a hippie Buddhist.

Although, if we ask him to show us his suit from the waist down. I'm just him, though. But yeah, organizational skills have had a huge impact on my life.

I think it's something I was very bad at. And I think most of my life I've been disorganized. I think I even have ADHD.

I think I have a hard time keeping attention to things. And being on time. And staying organized.

And in my life, I had to create systems for that. To be able to achieve things that were important to me. And now I have calendars.

And I have lists. And I have reminders. And I would even say that now, in some of those ways.

I am probably more accountable, reliable, punctual. Than people who do not have problems with attention. Or such disorders.

Because I have systems. Because I needed systems. And I need to go back and make outlines.

And get organized. And find a way to get my bearing when I'm confused. And it's a great service to people.

To take that time. And sometimes set aside time to go back and get organized. Even when you just want to progress.

Someone said to me once. It was really cute. They said.

As a metaphor. I don't have time to sharpen this axe. I have to chop the tree down.

And I feel that a lot in my life. That sometimes we can save years on a multi-year project. By stopping making progress on that project for a month.

To organize the project. Or to hone the skills or the tools that you need for that project. And it's very hard to step away for that moment.

Because you feel like you're not making progress. And it's a very critical skill. To know when to do that.

I think that. I really like what you said, Ben, about. That you noticed.

Your own abilities. Or struggles. With keeping attention.

And so you found a way. To bring attention. And that's like a metaphor for practice of the Dharma.

We pay attention to. Where we struggle. Where negative emotions are popping up.

You know? And then we apply those teachings. So that we can work with those negative emotions.

So that's really cool. It's really cool. I.

Yeah, I'm not. There's a request. Would I teach a course on organization and attention?

Not tomorrow or anything. But I'll tell you a book in the meantime. And then I see we have a question that will require visiting.

The English interpretation room. For those who know how to do that. You could start doing that now.

There's a book I read. Called getting things done. By David Allen.

And I didn't use everything in the book. But I used that book. It had a huge impact.

On me. And I do highly recommend it. Getting things done by David Allen.

He says. The mind is for. Having ideas.

Not storing them. And so it's just this beautiful way. Of taking everything that you do.

And putting it into your pocket. So you see. Michael always has this little French.

And a piece of paper in his pocket. And he, when an idea happens. He has this fertile ground for having ideas.

It goes straight onto the piece of paper. He has a system. Outside of his brain.

For storing ideas. And then. His brain has freedom to keep coming up with ideas.

Because he can just put it away. Into his pocket. And then, yeah, I would love.

Oh, that's the book. I love that book so much. Yeah, cool.

Good. We have a question here. I'm running over to the.

English room. Would you. Friend ask us your question.

Or share with us your insights. Rather about using this. In everyday life.

Thank you, Professor Ben. Thank you, Professor Ben. Thank you, everyone.

Thank you for coming. Let me ask this, I heard.

[Speaker 2]
This. This is spoken. I was thinking.

How can my beloved sir. Not suffer.

[Speaker 3]
How can I ensure that my beloved sir. Will never suffer. Will never suffer.

Like. that she can give birth to a twin kid without suffering. Meaning that all the mothers in the world, that they can plant the seed, that they can give birth to the twin babies, one boy, one girl, then I would like to learn this kind of seed.

How do we precisely plant that kind of seed? And another question is that, how do we grow tall? I want to become like as high as 1.8, 180 centimeter. How do I do that? Maybe I should remove my pride or anything.

[Speaker 1]
I would like to be tall because I heard that there is a seed that can grow a twin baby.

[Speaker 3]
Like Master Patanjali and all the masters, I heard that there are animations. So maybe I can have children, they are like these master's animations. Thank you.

How do I make that happen?

[Speaker 1]
Wow. You snuck three questions into your two questions, didn't you?

[Speaker 3]
Unless it was your twin children that you have.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, unless it was your twin children that you wanted to be very tall and born without pain.

[Speaker 3]
No, there's definitely been a wrong translation channel.

[Speaker 1]
Sorry. Oh, okay. I went back to the original channel temporarily.

I have to cover all of that in one minute, which is impossible. So I will say, relieve people's pain. Look for pain and do your best to relieve people's pain.

Even in ordinary ways that don't really work, give people aspirin, give people massages, give people balms or salves, find people who have pain. And in the best way that you know how, you do your best to relieve their pain. Can yoga make you taller?

Yeah, probably. Especially like forward bends or stretches, reaching, you can release pain in the low spine by separating those vertebrae. But if you really want to achieve it, then you should teach people those stretches.

So you have to not only learn the stretches, which might make you taller, but you have to master them so well that you can teach them to other people if you want them to be particularly effective for you. And having children that are emanations, I would just go back to the making lists. Your child is not really an emanation and your child is not really not an emanation.

And the song that you sing about them, the story you tell about them to yourself becomes truer every day you continue to sing it. Your eyes decide who the child is for you. And you praise them and think about all the wonderful things.

Tell yourself a story. You could even write a story about the secret reasons that they came to this world just to teach you, just to help you. And the final days of your story of liberation that this person came to this world just to help you and write it down.

And you can tell all the story of what they saw in you and how they knew you were ready and how they knew it was time to be born in your life and tell yourself that story. Sing that song, write a song about and sing that song to yourself. And it will become more and more true for you.

Dr. Juan Jasso. Thank you, Ben. Thank you.

Very beautiful and inspiring. I have you recorded. Okay, so really today there is a lot going on.

So I'm just gonna jump into it. But just yesterday, I hear very, very cool news that I'll be sharing with you in a moment. Let's first rejoice about the Mexico event that was a really great success.

I always enjoy so much visiting Mexico and seeing my old friends. We are all getting older. We were just talking about it, but it has been a very beautiful, wonderful trip.

Thank you, Gisela, for taking care of us and having visited Mexico. I want to just share a few pictures of the event, just one after the other. And then we have a special video as well to share with you.

But yeah, the event was great. We have a public talk with more than 500 people. People were engaging a lot.

We have the wisdom groups, of course, the wonderful classes with Gisela, with Mexican teachers, with international teachers as well. So it was a really, really beautiful and exciting event. And of course, as Gisela mentioned, there was also a very cool concert where many of friends here in Greenbrook participate as the rock stars.

And we want to share the compilation that Paulina Garcia organized for us. So let me show you the video and then we keep going with more news. That's it, that's it, ole ole ole ole.

Oh Oh Okay, I don't know what happened there But Yeah, it was very cool and this is the the kind of Number two concert after the one in vietnam with the same repertoire But new songs are coming up soon. Stay tuned Okay And then I had the chance to go to guadalajara because of the grand opening of casa tartuq And the taiwan team visit as well And because maybe many of you wanted to go but couldn't I hope my camera can be your eyes This time to tap in into the past and see what happened a few days ago. Perhaps we have another video Please marina Thank you A little love Foreign Yeah That's a very fun, uh evening Uh, yeah, just they're gonna start very soon to have Like the open schedule with classes meditations yoga and many more activities So we wish them the best and if you're an international visitor Maybe sometime come and check it out.

Very cool place beautiful view. The inside was beautifully designed by architect Aldo arzapalo So it was a very nice job Uh, okay and a quick run before we move on into the exciting exciting news A quick run on on getula's upcoming events Um what we have next in september at least that I know about is the pictures, please Otherwise i'll be talking and it's not gonna make sense Yeah, it doesn't anyway stays wrong Okay Next table, please.

Can you share the next slide? Yes. Thank you No That one yay All right that one yes september geshe-la will be teaching here in sedona the Heart of a yogi bhagavad-gita the song of victory volume 2 september 10 to 14 Make your airbnb reservations now Okay, next one and then in october He will be going to phoenix Which is the next picture, please Uh, and then it's in a in an old center.

We used to go sometimes the I forgot the name the jewish Cultural center we'll share the address, uh soon, but you can still start organizing Your trip to phoenix if you want to come and then Um still it's time enough to prepare your trip to kyoto next picture, please because in december The plan is to be there And finish with the 2025 Five houses courses ready to start the 2026 five houses courses Woo, okay.

Great Now this is the quick run if you want to if you want to Come live to these events come but if you cannot and you stay in asia, it's the next one. Yes, you were right Uh, you can also join the events that jasmine is organizing there in malaysia Only for october because in december, I think that is to combine them both But if you want to attend the october one in malaysia, you can follow this qr code Okay. Now I would like to invite xiao ping We are in in her house today and stanley's house as well shopping shoe she's gonna Tell us about this super exciting news.

[Speaker 3]
I just heard yesterday I'm glad I came back to arizona because otherwise it was a danger imagine I will have missed this Thank you shopping for being here and can you tell us what is this about it was a surprise kind of for me Yes, that's happening tomorrow.

[Speaker 2]
It's a surprise for all of us. I think for all of michael's student worldwide also so this is a a special event happening tomorrow uh, it's uh, we are going to celebrate the 50th anniversary of uh guess you michael's Uh special journey special experience touching the 50th anniversary of touching the asian western for those who who Happen to be in rimrock this week or tomorrow. We are going to How an in-person in-person event in jack's head in the room rock the capital of the universe Yes And luckily one came back in time.

Yes And and but don't worry for those of you you are not in rimrock then we are yesterday confirmed with gesha that it We are going to broadcast this event live So it's a open public event Everyone is welcome to attend and here is the qr code the zoom link is live live broadcasting and Kesha, michael will give a special sharing or talk or teaching About this special topic. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that sounds really exciting I think like it's a great time to celebrate and i'm happy that now we're starting to have more parties in real life Yes, this is a great wisdom party And it's exciting that we I haven't been there. But so many of us we're gonna be able to know this place dragon's head is the name Yes, dragon's head new land, which in video looks beautiful. It has a river.

Yeah, people can swim there, but we'll find out Okay, so there Okay, so follow the qr code for those who want to watch online yeah, and this is a free event

[Speaker 2]
Anybody can come and it's a one hour for those online it is uh, this event itself is Kesha is going to give a sharing about 45 minutes to one hour And but in person, I guess our wisdom party will last longer and we do I I think some of kesha michael student organizations. They are also uh having more or longer Celebrations maybe before this one hour event or after this one hour event And but this qr code itself is only the one hour Of kesha michael sharing so I hope you make it clear to you Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you. So thanks so much for organizing this.

[Speaker 2]
May I remind you will be a multiple language Simultaneous translation worldwide, but this slide just have english and chinese, but they we have organized multiple Simultaneous translation just like shenzhen tower. So any it doesn't matter what language you speak you can Join, yeah, enjoy.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you so much for producing and organizing And best wishes as well with the general project of dragon's head And and as shopping was saying there's other Celebrations, uh, and for that arrow is here because you may have heard this idea of ripples of light event and I think what is happening is like, um, I would say synergy or Intertwining of these two events and early is going to explain. What's the dynamic arrow? Thanks, also I think the the geshe michael has joined a celebration It's like the cherry on top um We have an event that'll be 24 hours of celebrating 50 years of geshe michael's teachings we've invited teachers from Many of the world view organizations from around the world I think we have some images of who those delightful people are and so We want to yeah, that's the video marina We want to take a day and step back and celebrate and And to do that in community with friends from across the world To do that in community with teachers from around the world So here's some of those delightful people.

We have a lot of mixed nuts like schwanzong's tower teachers Teachers from our organizations in asia Again, also translated in multiple language um And we'll focus on celebrating we'll focus on rejoicing a lot of it will be focused on uh emptiness meditations and Taking a moment to reflect on everything that's been That we've soaked up from geshe michael That we can then ripple out into the world And that's the idea so we can go to that qr code again People can sign up and We'll celebrate 24 hours special prize for those that meditate 24 hours in a row Then what happened when the public talk comes to be Is the link that ripples of life using going to connect people to the geshe last public event? Or they need to sign off and sing in or what?

So in a sense, it's two separate events, there's a link for geshe michael's event If you sign up for ripples of light, we will seamlessly transition from uh From what we're doing we'll go over to dragon's head um incorporate that beautiful teaching So no people won't need to sign in or sign out. It should be seamless Um, and then people that go to the you know, the geshe michael event obviously welcome to join us and celebrate more uh, but you'll need a separate qr code and to register separately, so You know in a sense two different events, but we're so happy that geshe michael has you know agreed to join in our in the celebration of Um what we're trying to do of bringing people together community organizations teachers meditators celebrating geshe michael Okay, very cool so and you're opening the event just in a few more hours, right you're gonna be one of the How do you say? openers we'll start it starts tomorrow and the idea part of the idea is to do the We're looking at how do we how do we meet our goals and we'll look at it through the idea through the lens of yoga And so we'll look at the eight eight steps of yoga eight parts of yoga so one of the things that we ask people to do is to To make a special effort to do a couple good deeds first keeping our yamas and niyamas Do a couple good deeds Come to the event with that virtue And then see what happens you know load it's like loading up our pockets with a little extra virtue and then come to the event and We'll be we'll be celebrating geshe michael and uh A bunch of very cool teachers from around the world and who knows what will happen So that's our plan. Cool.

Thank you so much. I think it's very admirable. You're willing to don't sleep in 24 hours For the cost so thank you so much for doing this And best wishes best wishes.

See you online tomorrow Thank you. I think that was it for today. We are getting ready for tomorrow And yeah, see you everyone there online Thank you very much.

Have a great weekend Don't miss tomorrow. We'll share the qrs and all that in in group chats as well Invite your friends I think that's it. Thank you ben Thank you, michelle