Бен Крамер — Книга 2: Драгоценность истинной мысли (Геше Йеше Вангчук о Дхармакирти), занятие 41

[Speaker 1]
Kingdom teachings with Earl and they wanted me to use a pretty background, but I uh You don't need that from me. You can handle the real me Oh, that is quite a uh Photo damn wow, that's beautiful, isn't it? Adjust background and effects.

Here we go. You're stuck with Plain old me Oh, man, hey, I got you michael. Hi boss Hola Even got me.

How are you? Oh, uh Indonesian again you said Yeah, I need a little Well, that's okay. All right kids.

Yeah, okay Uh, it's it's time ben if you want to start Okay Love us. Okay. Um, here we go.

So all the drinks you guys could come up with Do we see my screen do we see a homework? Yes, sir. Okay.

Yes Uh, what are the two requirements the master of dharmakirti suggests for a correct reason um And and give the relevant words from the root text the commentary on accurate perception in fact Let's try to do that first if we can Um, does anyone know the verse I i'm gonna try to memorize it Which means I didn't yet so don't feel bad. Yeah, I just remember there's a day in there You would think it's Yeah, it's gonna be helpful, um Yes, great we're getting we have three of the five words I think Choke What's the first test Um, what's the first of the three? uh tests or qualities of correct reason Yeah, I heard oscar, of course, yeah choke And then nick Deche I'll take it.

Great good enough. There's a yi in there that isn't immediately relevant to this discussion but uh, great, so Agreed what does he Intend with these lines. What does it mean?

What are the qualities of a correct reason? The three the three rules the one one goes with three three goes with two and if not two and not three Okay but uh so choke The reason is true of the subject yeah, a reason should be a of the choke a reason should be a quality of the Subject the reason should be something that's true to say about the thing we're talking about Uh, and then de kiava uh The assertion about the subject pervades the reason Yes, but Uh, if yeah, how could we say pervades? If what you've said about uh, if the reason that's what is if the reason is true Then what you've said about the subject must hold True I've been playing with the word.

Um includes Maybe uh Just playing with it maybe um the the assertion Includes the reason okay, or you could say it's easier if you say it kind of backwards the other way Like gation michael did back in the day. I think it's easier to say that Three is necessarily two. I think that's the the smoothest the thing you offer as the reason is something which is necessarily of the things suggested Isn't the word covers kind of perfect because in english that means both I think covers is not bad.

Yeah, I think it's pretty good. Um, But it almost yeah, I think it's a good word it sounds a little metaphorical to my taste but It's it's correct I think it's good quarters cover Dimes and quarters also cover quarters. Uh, let's be quick uh, would you kindly Give and briefly describe the two types of reasons used for proving the presence of something So we could have reasons for proving the presence of something or we could have A reason to prove the absence of something And there are two types of reasons used for proving the presence of something What are they?

um I remember but i'm not gonna say Is it identity? It's about results. Yeah And uh, yeah, it was in effect Yeah, cool.

That's right um Uh, they were taught in the other order, I think so i'm gonna ask you first before I reveal it Which is um when you say cause and effect, what would that be like? What's that? Um briefly describe if there's a reason If there's smoke there's fire because fire causes smoke Yeah, that's right.

I I I think it's the way that they That he puts it here is essentially that the reason should be a Oh a Effect a result Yeah, right. The reason should be a result. Yeah.

Great. Yeah. Wonderful.

Good. Um and then how about a uh an identity Reason if you like or a reason by identity, how would you describe that the reason should be what? identical It's sensitive you can't go ahead oscar just like being present You have to be careful when you say identical it's close to identical but It just means that To be the reason To be a thing, which is the reason or to be a thing Which the reason is true about?

is To be the assertion yes, essentially right so it's a one way Relationship of identity at least it could be two If it's identical that's okay but you don't have to be identical, um A reason by identity is that reason which has an identity such that to be it Is to necessarily be the quality you are trying to prove and then finally uh, whoops okay, what are the Uh two types of absences we may set out to prove With a reason for the absence of something So We talked about proving That a positive thing now, we're talking about proving the absence of something and there are two types of absences uh importantly that we may set out to prove and there's um A difference in the way that we would set out to prove them. What are those two? This is harder by ingox and magox no One of them is that normal People don't see those things Yeah Yeah, right.

And then the other is Something I normally would see. Yeah, so um, if there were such a thing as a a hungry spirit or something and And ben doesn't see it That doesn't prove it ain't here because of course ben doesn't see it um, he doesn't know how to see things like that that doesn't prove that it's not there if there's something so the two types are those that we um A reason for the absence of something that you typically wouldn't see an ordinary person typically wouldn't see Or the reasoning for the absence of something like a pot That you typically would see a coffee cup um Okay, cool.

Uh, let's look at issue. Michael. You gave me a very difficult assignment um Yeah It's about time Good okay Enough biographies Right, uh, this was tough Um Whoops here this I have a highlighted thing that i'm just used to Okay, something like that um Do you want me to read?

Yeah Okay. Yeah, please We can't see the whole thing. Can you?

Yeah, okay. Now we can okay. Okay.

So she good so she uh Uh Any Okay, good, uh So this is going back to the famous opening lines of the pramanavarttika, which is chok chu de che kyepay Which is the definition of a valid reason uh, and uh They use the word chok which in sanskrit is Yeah, which can also mean the wing of a bird uh, so it implies a sign or So chok means a direction uh And chok chu means the relationship between the Subject of the logical statement and the quality you're trying to prove about it Let's take sound, uh, touch stone. It's impermanent because it's made So sound is made Is uh is is the major premise something like that?

It's something that we uh, We would agree to already We don't agree to one is two, but we agree one is three Let's take sound it's impermanent because it's changing. Okay, everyone agrees it's changing We're not sure whether it's changing moment by moment or not. Okay so, uh So sushi Uh is a japanese food that's pretty good if it's fresh.

No, i'm kidding. Uh, sushi is uh So tsu means to fight And Tsu means to argue and it is the tibetan word for debate for formal debate Uh, so like a argument between a husband and a wife. It's the same verb as formal debate Arguing so she means uh The thing that you're fighting about which in this case is sound.

Okay sound sushi Uh, then he states it sound And then he says let's take sound as something that we're trying to figure something out about sushi, uh so yeah, consider a topic of debate like like sound uh It is yeah, it is not Uh a real Yeah Yeah, technically you can say technically Art except as is it before an assertion is made about it? Yeah, that's fine, uh your translation is fine, okay, but but the whole Why we're studying this we we are studying an extra quotation we went out of the book uh, we went to a different book and we're we're trying to get a Clear answer about the first line and a half Of the pramana vartika, which is huge thousands of lines And the first line and a half are very famous because they define a correct reason You know, you could live the rest of your life on the first line and a half without the other thousand verses thousand lines And and we debate them for many many years It's just the first few pages, okay, uh, and so yeah Uh, he's trying to explain chok chud de che kya be ye.

He's trying to explain the first line and a half That's that's why we're studying this Citation we took it out of john brady's database Because it offered some clarity on this weird wording Which says direction peace covered by reason Okay, it's unclear We're trying to get some clarity on it. Okay. All right, your translation is good so far Okay.

Well, that's yeah Nowhere to go but down um Oh, this is let's see. I'm, sorry. I have to Okay Oh, um, do you want me to have someone to do you want to have someone read then?

Yeah, oscar. Would you read this? Yes, thank you.

Thank you So Yeah, oscar is a graduate of a nice program that ben's a graduate of Which is uh to go study uh the language among the native people and debate among the native people so I went four times. It doesn't count oscar until you get very sick Yeah until you go to the nearby hospital, which is uh Just short of death. All right.

Uh, Kathy when mary is not quite right Um There was an american doctor there geshe michael it was okay because he was both american And a doctor though. I believe his medical education was in cambodia Uh And the medicines were made in that local country, which is makes them a little bit better than motor oil. Okay.

Uh, Not kind of reason is according to some reason By the part, okay Yeah, okay All right, uh Yeah, good, it's not quite right to give the definition of a reason that the greatest logician in history gave Okay all right, um No, it's not correct because choke needs sushi Uh, that's because uh Choke needs sushi Um, I keep getting these Uh, the chad keeps blocking me, uh, that's because a debate position can I turn it off? Yes, yeah hide it. Okay.

Good. All right. Um Yeah, what he's saying is the word choke Means what we're fighting about sushi.

Okay, good yeah choke refers to the subject of the debate foundation of debate Which happens to be sound the most famous debate in history? is Let's take sound it's changing Because it's made and that that Most famous logical statement in history was presented to whom by whom? by buddhists to hindu schools Yeah, yeah, it was presented by buddhist schools to hindu schools who said that the word om was eternal Yeah, and that it never changed and and we say the moment you say om it's already changed Okay, which is buddhism in a nutshell So that's the most famous logical proof of all history Uh, let's take sound it's changing moment by moment because it's it was produced by your vocal cords, etc Okay, uh choke need sushi So the choke in this case paksha the the side Is which can mean position but in this case it just means the subject of the debate which is what? Sound okay, so he says choke Choke or or side Means the object of debate the the the thing that you're fighting about which is sound. Okay and cha Means what cha cha cha?

Cha means part. Okay, so cha should be uh Part of the choke part of the extended choke. So we divide choke into Brief choke and extended choke.

So choke is what we're fighting about sound but in a broader sense, we're arguing about whether or not sound is Changing okay So so the word cha a part of the a part of the argument a part of the a part of the assertion What's the assertion sound is? It's changing what's a part of the assertion Change there are two parts and sound is also okay so the way uh Dharmakirti starts his famous book after he finishes the unbelievable preface Uh, he says chok chir de che kyapay. He says the the part the part Of the assertion which means the quality that's asserted which is changing sound is changing moment by moment Okay, cha ni de chok chik yinpe tsul shi chok chik uh, so tsul shi means uh What we're fighting about What we're arguing about chok chik means one part of it or one direction of it uh chok chik it should uh khyapa the dak Okay, uh, what's the dak the reason given let's take sound Changing it's Yeah, it's no Judgment Sound is changing because it's made.

Okay. So what's the reason? It's made.

Made. It's made. Okay, it is made What's the relationship in a good reason?

Between the quality you're trying to prove and the reason you get in this case it's made and changing The quality you're trying to prove should necessarily include the reason Good it should either equal the reason or it should be a subset of the reason And then the reason is true and then the logical statement is true Okay, so what comes third? Should be equal or bigger than what comes second. How's that?

Other way sound is Because it's made Yeah, if it's made it should be changing Okay It should either be equal to changing or it should be less than changing. Okay It should be a subset of changing at least in minimum. Okay Yeah But here yeah, you can say The quality asserted Covers the quality the thing in the reason spot Right.

Yes. Yes No, but your position is the reason should cover the quality asserted It's not my position Oh, so if it's the quality if it's the reason it should be the quality asserted, right? That's true Oh, the quality asserted should be equal to or less than the reason.

How's that? Yeah, right because the Assertion is the cha that does with the song the khyaba in Yeah, so the the reason should be two or less the agent The the doer the subject Yeah, the problem in dharmakirti's original opening line is the word cha which means part Yeah, okay. So part of what part it says here Part of the cho Uh should cover the thought Right, right Yeah But that's wrong, right?

well No, see that's the problem. Yeah, I I you know addition michael. I um I I was I missed you and I wish that I had we did a team class without you and I don't Want to do that and I never want to have a class without you please but uh, it gave me a lot of time to work on the problems and um, yeah, and I just wanted to show you um uh, I I did some work on the auto commentary um Because I had nothing to do to contemplate this question and um, okay And it was really interesting because I found something In the sanskrit that was missing from the tibetan And it was it seemed to be dharmakirti's glossing of the word paksha um and Um, and so he says okay the the the choke is the kitchen right, it's the the subject um but what wasn't in the tibetan, it just goes on the tibetan just goes on to say that it's um, There's a figurative usage or something, right? He says uh um But um, but in the line before it he talks about this Um right of the of a member Uh, or excuse me of the whole for the member you see that like because the I guess a choke can include Both the subject and the thing you're saying about the subject Right, but he's not using it that way.

He's using it Metaphorically when he says choke, he just means the subject but he's using a word for The position he's using a word that can mean both the subject and the asserted quality uh, but he um he doesn't tell you that so it's confusing so that I guess so I took that to mean that it It can have two parts but He doesn't necessarily mean it that way Um I I don't know. Anyway, uh I just thought i'd throw that out there. I think he might be saying that he's using He he might be saying that he's chosen the word bhaksha for allegorical reasons like somehow Yeah, but normally bhaksha means whole position of somebody yeah, right it also means Yeah, and here he's used it in an allegorical way or something an upachara where the combination Is used to mean one of the parts of the combination?

or something It could be yeah I think so. I I took it that way in trying to To understand this verse that um That che Right the part means even though bhaksha means the subject of the debate the way that dharmakirti is using it when he says che when he says cha He does mean part of that uh position he means the part that is the assertion in the the the The dhruvcha. You mean the quality assertion?

Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay Yeah, I think okay, uh Anyway, this is a dissenting opinion at this point and I think it's the first mr. D.

Sure uh Let's go to the next tibet and see what if it helps It when in doubt move on Yeah, great Who's gonna read bin? Um, I I it's too nice to hear oscar. Can you do one more oscar before we are deprived of the pleasure of your reading?

Oh, come on. Yeah Good, uh, so this is a kind of a recondite Sentence, okay, but on the face of it, it means kin may day. What's what's kin may mean?

Yeah, that's not a problem uh In general the word cha part refers to the sure Uh Right, can I say Yes the quality to be proven Yes impermanent So cha here means the quality to be proven in in general uh part in Dharmakirti's opening line refers to the quality that you're trying to prove which is Impermanence changing moment by moment, uh, good law uh But don't forget That okay. Here's here's your savior bin, I think Uh, can I see your translation? I can't see it.

Uh, oh no, why? Uh, it's on the screen. I'm not sure.

Yeah, okay Okay, now I can see it. Uh Because in part here refers to that which appears intensely express something Yeah, that term itself can express Yeah, uh, it means We decide the meanings of words uh according to the judu Which is what ben? uh, the the the intent of your Words the intent of the expression or something.

Yeah What did the speaker of the word mean to say and what We decide what a word means by trying to figure out what the person who's saying it meant to say And not by the meaning of the word Okay, je je gi dra express, uh words that are used to express ideas uh, they They should be interpreted As following the intent of the speaker and not what they and not what the words say That's kind of a defense for saying cho chu de cha Uh doesn't refer to the assertion it refers to the to the sorry That refers to the assertion and not to the equality that we believe in see what I mean when you say the It doesn't refer to one is three. It refers to one is two because that's what he meant But it's not what he said Okay Thank you the the debate between me and ben is Should item number two be bigger or should item number three be bigger? What do you think?

Let's take sound it's Impermanent because it's changing Sorry, it's changing because it's judge shimitake. Yeah, it's it's impermanent because it was made Okay, which one should be bigger? In this case, they're the same size Right.

Yeah And they are bigger in general Yeah, two two Two can be bigger than three But three can never be bigger too Right, let's take that. I wouldn't prove anything because it's because it exists That would be wrong In that case two would be bigger than two Okay So two either has to equal three or two has to be bigger than three right ben Correct Yeah, that's my understanding I think it's correct. Yeah chok chu de che Yeah, it's the problem.

It's just the problem that he doesn't say that he says three should be bigger than two But that's not what he meant That's all that's this author's position I think that de cha means like what you would other consider part of the Choke, right like assertion Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, right It means the yeah the part of the Drup cha because chok can mean drup cha, but it means the drup che cha in this case because the drup che cha is part of the Drup cha, which sometimes is what choke is Yeah, okay, so anyway cha Cha should refer to two but it refers to three. Can we say that?

No Cha cha refers which should be bigger Two cha does refer to two. Oh, yeah cha means part but it doesn't mean part of one plus three It means part of one plus two Yeah, right. Yeah, great.

Yep. I think so. Okay Okay, that's all he said It's part of one plus three, but he meant it's part of one plus two Uh, can I give you the point?

Yes, uh, right. He's uh It could be it's a little ambiguous. It could be taken either way.

So I guess but I guess he's saying You have to study it. No once once you say cap once you say cap Cha has to refer to yeah, right the second Element of the three of elements of the reason. Yeah, right.

Yeah, right. Yeah, right according to the Adjective right which is in the sanskrit too. Yeah, it says not i'm shana Yeah, that's that's a problem the problem is it's clearly Instrumental in the sense.

Yeah Yeah, right and some people drop the s in the tibetan but but But the sanskrit is instrumental Yeah, you can't get out of it. And I did I also looked at our you had checked a version of the um, auto commentary. Oh, is this the to see Um, it looked like there was an in the auto commentary he had used.

Um Oh, I want to find it but I went and I looked oh here here, um Uh, yeah in in the version of the auto commentary that we had Right. He um, he adds a day right, but that wasn't in the It wasn't in the sanskrit Um, so i'm not sure what that indicates right? Yeah, because here's the sanskrit Um, it just says thud and thud is uh nominative not genitive Yeah, somebody Somebody added the apostrophe.

I yeah, right. I think so. Okay Yeah Seems like yeah.

Okay. Yeah, cool All right It's a mystery and to tell you the truth. We don't debate it and we debate this for many days And we never debate that so it's kind of cool Yeah It's cool that you that you debated it All right, and it's not meaningless It's the whole definition of a good reason If we don't get that straight, I don't see how we can go on How far did we reach ben is did we really stop here No, we Circled back We went further so I think um We there's another mark down here Yeah, there is uh here Let's see.

It's one Uh, I think we're at one three. There's yet another month 1.3. Yeah, we we kind of went backwards to cover this thing.

[Speaker 2]
Here we go.

[Speaker 1]
Then stop here Okay, uh Uh All right, I art of by the way, I artificially put in the root text Uh, I added the root text uh As I mentioned before anytime I need help with pramana vartika Anytime I need to translate a quotation from the pramana vartika. I go to yeshi wangchu Uh, I go to this modern author who's the teacher of my teacher And he was uh Detained for 30 years And he he wrote a commentary he had time and uh And it's an amazing commentary and then uh, it got we got a copy we printed it It became a very popular book. Finally.

He was able to come and check it And we worked on it together And then he passed away in a car accident uh and uh But um Anytime I need to Translate a piece. I go to his commentary because he does a word by word And nobody else does that. I'm aware of that that clearly So it's extremely unusual that in the last 1500 years The person we go to is someone we knew uh but I've been I have a bad feeling that when he started his commentary.

He wasn't trying to cover every word Yeah, so So we're kind of stuck Yeah, he's close and then he slides into covering every word later But for these first few for these first half chapters something we're gonna have to deal with it ourselves Okay. So anyway, here it is. Uh Original line, by the way, we're fortunate that we have the sanskrit.

It has survived uh but Christina's busy. So No, we gotta we gotta cover something. All right, who's gonna read this?

Thanks, Ben. Tracey, would you read? Thank you Thank you And then let's uh Read the rest, shepa Oh, sure Shepa de chu kang yin yang rang gi tse ma, tse me ma mikpa lai de yu me sok ten chu mi ring she ten Yeah, good nice your reading is quite good again mysteriously good uh Let me get here Where am I?

Hmm accessibility display There's a pointer in here, okay, good, uh de chu kang yin uh Kang yin yang, what's that mean, Ben? Chu kang yin yang uh um Chu kang yin, anything that they're Yeah, no matter what thing no matter what thing we may be talking about, okay, no matter what thing we may be talking about rang gi means by anyone if it Hasn't been ma mikpa by somebody's sema Yeah, if they didn't see it with an accurate perception Uh, yeah if they have not perceived it with an accurate direct or deductive perception Then it would be mirik to touch it Yeah, it's unreasonable to um Like come to a conclusion or to like analyze whether or not that thing exists Yeah, good touch it means to come to a final conclusion in this case, okay It would be it means final, right?

It would be It wouldn't be logical if unless you approved it to Uh, rang gi tse mi ma mikpa, if you haven't seen it with your own eyes or with your own logic It's unreasonable to decide whether it exists or not That's just a basic buddhist proposition And then he's done With that half of a verse, okay three a And he now he moves on to the second half of the verse Who's gonna read that then?

[Speaker 2]
Um, could we have one more tracy Thank you, um, are we at she shepa?

[Speaker 1]
uh

[Speaker 2]
They

[Speaker 1]
Good, uh, so there are two, uh, there are generally three classifications of all logical reasons one is where Was it jay rang ma mikpay Uh One is where yeah, there's a cause and effect relationship one is where there's a relationship of identity And then the third is where there's any kind of negation And by the way, we should point out that what's this note from geshe michael mean here ben Ma mikpa

[Speaker 2]
I didn't understand

[Speaker 1]
Yeah Go ahead word. I think if it doesn't exist at all, then it doesn't matter if it's a result As far as categorizing it.

Yeah, the point is in categorizing In categorizing a logical statement First you look at whether it's negative or positive. Is it trying to prove something? Is it trying to prove something?

It's not Ah if it's trying to if it's not and and then you Then you make the first division you say either it's a positive proof or it's a negative proof If a negative proof may talk about cause and effect And a negative proof may talk about identity But the negativeness ought to first throws it into the third category of reasons Oh, okay. Got it. Okay That's what i'm trying to because you'll say we'll have a negative Logical statement in here that depends on a cause and effect relationship and you'll ask me why didn't they put it into the cause and effect?

Logical statements and i'll say Positive or negative goes first I got it. If it's negative it goes negative bag If it's positive you check if it's cause and effect or if it's a relationship of identity. Okay, got it.

Oh cool. Okay Okay That's all It just occurred to me that it would be confused Yeah Does it say that later again or in some other commentary that you know, it never says that that's a gift from Geshe Michael Okay Nobody ever said that Okay, uh chukang yin yang. What's that mean, Ben?

um Again anything that there could be Yeah, no matter what no matter what chuh in this case doesn't mean dharma in this case dharma means entity No matter what entity in the universe we're talking about If it's nang rung What's rung rung mean? Appropriate or reasonable for it to appear Accepted almost. Yeah, nang rung means Appearable to you Appearable to you.

Are there are there ghosts in this room? I don't know. There may be but they're not nang rung to us.

Okay at our level If we were buddhists, they they would be nang rung. Okay. So nang rung means Appearable?

They could appear If they were here, you would see them Almost. So all negative reasons Yeah All negative logical statements are divided into two types We're talking about the absence of something that you could see if it were there And then we're talking about the absence of something that you personally wouldn't be able to see anyway If it was if it was here, got it. Okay, it's kind of confusing Okay, and by the way, that's a personal thing So when you're categorizing a reason You have to state who's the opponent Okay, if the opponent is a buddha, there's nothing that's not nang rung Everything appears to them.

If there's ghosts in the room, they should see it also If there's if a buddha's sitting in our room and they don't see a ghost there's no ghost Okay, and then it would be a different category of logic and all buddhist logic Is highly dependent on those on the perceptual capacity of your opponent and If you misjudge the perceptual capacity of your opponent And give them the wrong reason for them. It's your fault And you and your logic is illogic It's very interesting the honest or the responsibility For a statement, for a reason to be correct Depends on your judging the capacity of the other person It's very interesting A logical reason is not logical in buddhism If it's presented to a person who cannot understand it It's very interesting. The definition of what's logical and what's not logical Only depends on the capacity of your listener It's very very revolutionary.

It's similar to the definition of morality In buddhism, it's not what you would expect in the west Okay in the west, what's moral? Something that doesn't hurt other people In buddhism, what's moral? See something that doesn't hurt you Yeah, if you underestimate an opponent And you give them a correct statement, but it's one that they cannot confirm Then you have spoken illogically You are not speaking logic.

It's amazing. It's cool Okay Like if the other person's insane you cannot present logic to them anything you say would be illogical Okay Maybe yeah, at least not helping you. Okay.

Anyway, uh So nang rung, you got to get it in your brain. It means if it were there you could Perceive it. You could see it That's called nang rung.

Okay Uh, yapa de rang gi ma mik na if it's something you could have seen if it was there and you don't see it Then it's mik It's not there. It doesn't exist. If we're talking about an object that you could have seen If it were in the room and you don't see it Then it doesn't exist there Okay, got it And nyupay, that's called nang rung ma mikpay tak A a negative Proof, a proof for the absence of something That you could have seen if it was there That implies there's other kinds of proof for the absence of something that you Could not have seen if it was there and there are such proofs Okay. All right. So that we finished that We finished the first of the two categories of what kind of reason?

The reason to prove something is not Okay, negative reason. Okay All right Who's gonna read next? Dr. Ban?

How much time we got? We okay? 10 minutes.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, we got it. We're fine.

[Speaker 1]
Oh good. I'm gonna push this down a little uh Let's have someone read the root text for good luck, Ben How about Rukhsana, that other graduate of that fine program? metun chen ni mik nam shik Nice, whoa Some people go to study and come back.

They go to the Isle of, what do they call it? Jewels and come back with jewels and some people come back with diarrhea. Okay All right, who's gonna read this one, Ben?

Rukhsana, would you continue?

[Speaker 2]
Okay Good uh sik che means what, Ben?

[Speaker 1]
In this case the words of the first, the words of the commentary. Those four lines, yeah uh, they are they are giving uh the how many kinds of negative reasons for proving the absence of something that you could have seen if it was there? There's four, okay, there's four different categories of reasons you can give to prove the absence of something that would have been visible to your opponent if it was there.

uh and we give the tsen shes. We we're gonna give uh classical examples of all four. These are four different reasons for proving that something's not there which your opponent could have seen if it were there, okay?

And we're going to give the divisions, okay? So, uh, gyelway rangshin dak su ku, uh, we are going to present uh some a kind of reason where, I don't know, you could say cold water is not in the room. Because it's full of hot water.

The presence of something that contradicts the thing that's absent proves that it's absent, okay? This room is covered with ice. Therefore, it's there's nothing in the room that's going to burn your finger, something like that.

Lundi, gyel dang means what, Ben? Um, uh, like a contradictory pair. Yeah, good.

So, da, nda, uh, all of these zl words, which by the way are nd, they're pronounced nnda, okay? They mean the second, they mean the double of something. Like, what's ku?

Ku sung tuk. Ku. Ku means body.

Ku nda means, is the high honorific for wife or husband. Body second. Body, body, and the word moon is dawa because it's the match of the sun.

So, da means, uh, the one partner of a pair. Da means one partner of a pair, okay? So, gyelm da means, um, the, the touch of a red hot iron rod in conjunction with the touch of a piece of ice.

They are gyelm da. They are, they are a contradiction pair. Okay, got it?

Gyelm da. Uh, so two things can be contradictory. Two things, two things can be such that one proves the absence of the other, either by nature or by cause and effect.

Okay, so the presence of a red hot iron rod precludes what? The presence of ice. Okay, or you could say, I don't know, the presence of a fire sprung from a match precludes the presence of a piece frozen in the fridge or something, something like that, okay?

And, uh, what I did, Ben, for this whole discussion, I went to the database and I pulled out the actual classical syllogisms for each one. And normally a young student, 13, 14 years old, would memorize these to learn the different types of reasons. To learn the different types of syllogisms, a baby monk in the Geshe course, first year Geshe, you know, first of 25 years, they would be required to memorize a representative syllogism for each one.

And they're much more educational than the descriptions. Once you know the classic example of a syllogism, you never forget what it refers to. So I've gone in and supplied them for you.

Okay? Here we go. And who's, let's read, Ben, since we don't have a lot of time, we got five minutes, let's do the first one together with you, and then you're going to translate the second one, okay?

Okay. Please read the first line, just for pronunciation purposes. gyelm dang mikpay ma mikpay dak Yeah, ma mikpay dak means a logical reason, a valid reason, for proving that something is absent.

ma mikpa means absent. What's the famous mantra? mikpay means not perceived, not there.

ma mikpa means same thing, not perceived. So ma mikpay dak is the third kind of classical reason, a reason for something not being true or not being there. And there's many categories, and you're going to learn this category by learning an actual example, and then you will never forget it.

And this is a proof that something is absent because of the presence. mikpa Okay, the ma mikpa, the absence, is being proved by the presence, mikpa, of a gyelm da. An opposite.

Yeah, good. The lack of oppressive heat in this room is being proved by the presence of massive amounts of ice. Okay, that's all.

You prove that something is absent by showing that its opposite is present. It's incompatible opposite. They cannot sit in the same place.

All right, and here's the classic example. Here's the classic syllogism. If you were really serious about the next 10 years with Ben Kramer, you will memorize them, or at least be able to give them.

So here's the first one. Please read Ben. me tok chenpo kya bar nunpay shar gyi shi na chod chenpoy Yeah, let's take, and by the way, it's a little bit odd.

Let's take at a location. Let's take at a location. He doesn't say let's take a location.

He says let's take at a location, which happens to be shar. In the east, yeah. To the east, okay.

He's trying to specify an area. Let's take the second room in Stanley's house. He doesn't say Stanley's house.

He says let's take a specific spot in Stanley's house. Okay, let's consider to the east, okay, back of the house. That location is numbered by a khyabpa of me.

This nun means, this nun, nun can mean to poke somebody with a needle. But here it means it is, what do you call it, pervaded by a, by a holocaustal fire. Okay, it's not that someone has a lighter.

It means the gasoline was poured all over the floor and somebody threw a match. Khyabpa nunpa means, khyabpa nunpa means totally immersed in fire. Okay, khyab means spreading, right?

Khyabpa nunpa means immersed and engulfed, spread. What's tok cheng? Powerful fire.

Yeah, let's take a, let's take a room in Stanley's house, which is covered by a massive inferno. Okay, we're not talking a, you know, a cigarette lighter or something. Okay, please read, Ben.

Chang re. Chang re gyun chak su me te. Yeah, gyun chak su is an adverb which means in a flow.

This chak means to be, to, to form there, or to develop there. So gyun chak is an idiom that means there's no continued existence in that room of chang re, of freezing cold. Feeling of cold.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, there's no continued presence of someone shivering in a room which is covered by a massive inferno.

Okay. That's a gyalm dar. What's gyalm dar?

That's a pair of opposites. Yeah, that's a pair of opposites. One cannot exist in the presence of the other.

One cannot exist in the presence of the other. Okay. It's covered in flame.

Therefore, there's no ice cold feeling there. All right. Going on in a flow.

I mean, maybe somebody threw an ice cube in there and it'll last for a second. But he says it has to be in a flow. It has to stay for a while.

Okay. Why not? Why can't there be a sustained coldness in that room?

Because I just said it's covered in an inferno. Okay, it's covered in an inferno. By the way, it's illegal logic to repeat an element in your syllogism.

It's illegal. You can't say he's an asshole because he's an asshole. You have to say he's an asshole because he's a big asshole.

Something like that. You have to change the element. Okay, so he took out the word East.

Sharp. Took out the word East. Okay.

Let's take the second room in Stanley's house covered with an inferno of gasoline flames. There's no ice cube sitting there because it is a room covered in massive inferno of gasoline flame. He doesn't say, he doesn't repeat the word East.

Okay, you cannot repeat the word. You cannot repeat the element. Word for word.

You have to change it slightly. Okay, you have to change it slightly. And by the way, you hear this kind of logic in a bad argument with your wife.

You shouldn't go to that restaurant because the food is bad. Why? Because the food is bad.

Like that. You have to change it. You have to say the food is really bad.

Or something like that. All right, Ben, you're going to translate reason number two and you're going to translate number three. Okay.

I've given you classical examples and you're going to translate two and three. And to me, to be honest, they're more they're more instructive than the the sentences between them, but that's another story. Okay.

Should I? Okay. If you memorize the basic syllogisms, you will always remember the categories that they represent.

Okay, what was the category here? Yanda. Yeah, yanda.

There's things which are, what do you call that? Incompatible. They cannot stay in the same place.

Okay, cool. You did pretty well. Nobody fell asleep.

Everyone's still pretending to be interested. By the way, to prove emptiness and to save your life you must be able to reason. There's no other way.

I can explain it to you. I can, you can say Geshe-la said, it's not as convincing as figuring out yourself. Okay.

Okay. That's what we're doing. Hey.

Geshe-la, where did you? All right, Ben, I'm going away. Yeah, where did I get all these guys?

Yeah, I was just wondering where you put them. You can search the database and you will find them. Certainly will.

Just, by the way, take a string of six syllables, search it in Gopher, and you will find all the places where they are located. I did not create any. I might have adjusted some to make them better.

Seriously, they weren't very clear. All right, you okay, Ben? You look a little dazed there.

Don't worry. Oh, yeah, I plan to stay that way for the next 50 years. You're gonna try to convince everybody that this is important for their real life.

Okay, and by the way, Ben, at the end, at the very end, leave us one minute for singing off-key happy birthday to Gyelse and doing her mo from the book, okay?

[Speaker 2]
You bet.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, bye. Okay. I thought...

Okay, I thought maybe to ask some sharing some advice maybe about reasoning. I was thinking of the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin. Not everyone knows who that is, but he's a famous American founder, one of the founders of America, and his autobiography is cool.

He was neat. He kept a book. I wonder if it's one of the ways Geshe Michael got the way that he presented it to us because Benjamin Franklin kept his morality in a book like this.

And he was also a vegetarian at a time that it was not popular to be a vegetarian and he but he loved fish. He just loved to eat fish and he said he was out on a boat one day and he saw a fisherman catch a big fish and the fisherman cut open the fish and out of the fish fell a bunch of smaller fish and he thought to himself two things. One, surely if he can eat those fish, then I can eat him.

And two, how wonderful is the reasoning, the logical capacity of humans that we can come up with some reason to justify whatever we already want to do. Um so I was thinking about arguments with my wife and I'm I'm good at coming up with reasons but it's it's hard to hard to see sometimes. Are you doing it because you're right or trying to get to some higher truth or are you just finding clever reasons to do what you want to do anyway?

And I'm wondering what you would tell me or offer me some advice. I need help. I'm that guy who loves to come up with reasons and try to find a way to get my way.

now my wife is too smart for me and she says I don't care what clever reason you've come up with. We're still not going to that restaurant. Um but how do you how do you try to watch yourself for that?

Help me. Somebody help me. Help me.

You have to help me. If I ask for help you have to speak because you're all wisdom warrior saints in training at least. One thing that you could ask is is the outcome of this argument uh is it possibly going to be helpful to like not just me but the whole family or the whole dynamic the whole relationship?

Is it something that can bring us to a better place or is it uh just something that it's going to further my interest in this small scale goal?

[Speaker 3]
Well, yeah, and and also we were we were learning too that I mean this is something we've if we're gonna if we're gonna use like a syllogism with somebody it has to be kind of on their own terms to right? So it has to be something they've already accepted.

[Speaker 1]
So just coming up with the reasons to try to get our own way kind of makes the statement illogical from its outset, right?

[Speaker 2]
And it's a little bit dicey because as we all know because we we were asked to memorize this line

[Speaker 1]
judge not unless you are as I am So there's no way we can judge what

[Speaker 2]
If I if I cancel the label of this and just see that is alive

[Speaker 1]
Nice uh Sarani said something very beautiful in the chat which is uh Use that skill to come up with reasons for the other person to get what they want Can you can you come up with counter arguments?

to your own arguments Of course, I don't want to because I want to get my way I can almost feel it right. You can almost feel it right when you're Pushing it but it it's so it's so Subtle When I notice that i'm trying to get my way I can kind of feel it in in the back of my heart And when I can just barely feel it in the back of my heart then that That i'm being naughty that i'm just trying to get my way Then that is a hint to me that Probably a bunch of the times I didn't notice it if I can barely feel it sometimes then there are probably other times when I Ignored it.

I bet you Uh, what do you think? How do I call myself out? How do I catch myself?

Well, the intuition is a good place to start. It's how your heart feels, right? Yeah Yeah Yeah, that's true and Motivation before opening mouth Yeah, but how do you do so right?

Two things the six times book and meditation because you need strong session That's true I think we can Put the facial expression of our wife Into the considered consideration of the logic If you know what I mean Yeah I do I have one ben for you Great, please. There's a ferocious bookkeeper who will help me Uh, you know in sales we had this thing in the cycling industry about um, everyone's the hero of their journey and it's you have to constantly be in a place where you're Trying to think like they're you know, kendra's the hero of her whole story. And so you have to kind of put yourself in their mind basically um in order to help them like I would never sell anything that wouldn't Be the best thing for that person And so and it was kind of what we were talking about before you never use a logical statement, which they don't already accept So in this case, you know like All of kendra's best friends are going to be there or something like that or you know like it's not so much that it's that I think it's a win-win situation where you're Doing what's best for them is also best for you. I think you know what I mean?

That's nice. I just made me think about that exchanging self and other sort of mentality where you're like, you know Somehow i'm trying to convince her to go to that restaurant, but it's really beautiful because you're really putting yourself in their shoes There's this cute saying right they say happy wife happy life and uh I think it's I don't know It's It's cute. It's a it's a cute saying Uh, and I think it's it's nice.

I think it's really if we look at our motivation What's gonna make me happier people also say sometimes like don't Don't be dependent on other people's happiness. You should be happy You know in yourself for your own reasons and it always kind of bothered me um I I am I am dependent on other people's happiness. I I am though and and I do and I and our found the foundation of our relationship is One another's happiness and I I don't think that's unhealthy.

I think it's very wonderful and very beautiful and am I going to be more happy? if I get some garbage food Instead of um When ezra and I and when my son and I hang out together and mom's away He'll say to me dad. Can we get dirty boy food tonight?

Because mom eats oh my god But in the end, um, am I going to be happier if I get the dirty boy food or am I going to be happy um in the presence of the person who I love so much in life being happy Uh, we should do guilce's, uh song and mo happy birthday guilce. I love you I because I have the screen I get to say that personally Um, can we sing we always sing so beautifully as a delayed zoom group Before we sing oh then then I don't know where my time my suit went. Uh Okay, you have you have one that just you have a velcro one that rips off yeah one two three Um I wanted to say something to you and which is If you can catch if you're already catching it sometimes Then you can dedicate that to catching it all the time Inshallah.

Oh, thank you. Okay. She's about to open it.

She's about to open the prediction book Quickly because hustle has to do his new show Oh Yeah, so cup of rice to long ghetto I shall fetch for you the cup of deathlessness Do That's a dang good birthday wish All right. Happy birthday.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you Okay, i'd like to introduce the amazing juan hustle Who's going to tell us? All the news. Thank you, senor Don't forget those two soldiers and you have to translate.

Okay, here we go. I won't know I don't know This is for the presentation later, but for now, this is good good Okay, hello everyone Thank you So of course, yeah, of course we start with uh congratulating Gail say happy birthday. Thank you for everything you do for us Many years I work with her in diamond mountain a lot of good stories But it's part of the adventure so thank you so much happy birthday Uh, so today we want to share with you a few things happening very cool things happening this time Um, especially Well, let's go step by step.

Okay, just to get you know, just to share with you guys that Sanskrit classes are happening and christina Can you share the first slide, please? Yes, she is Leading the sanskrit classes every thursday 9 am in arizona time Uh, that poster was the first class. So that's why it says jude 20, but it's happening every thursday So if you want to join if you feel curious about it Uh just follow the QR code and it's gonna take you to a telegram chat Where you can join the classes you can find information of what's happening And every everything you need in order to Be part of it.

I think it's very cool. Congratulations. Christina that you are doing this She's an expert graduated from harvard university Uh the second third, oh, yeah, I thought second but third I see so the third best university Still is very good, you know So yeah, you can join just check it out.

You can come no jose No pressure people can join join freely. They like it keep coming if you don't just make other plans Oh Fun all the time Great. So congratulations christina and I think it's wonderful opportunity.

Excuse me opportunity for us to Start learning organic sanskrit Okay, so what's happening in asia? I want to share a little bit of something happening today there Not today here in arizona. But today they're in asia already 7th of july And john brady is having a great Public talk called the art of gratitude Is happening in indonesia?

Uh, he has been doing like an asia tour for the last few almost like a month now very interesting So today they are in indonesia Having this event and then in a few more days, they're gonna go to borobudur Which is the next borobudur Ah sounds like that Yeah Uh, erle is gonna be there as well. Connie's gonna be there. Uh, of course john brady jasmine, uh, joan lin They're gonna be having um the second series on the borobudur event I don't know if it's maybe too late to join but you can try is the next picture with the qr code It's just happening in a few days from now And then after that after indonesia, they are going to singapore Where they are having other events where they are going to be honoring is the next picture The some of the donors that have been supporting the translation centers of this ancient classic wisdom In order to do that.

They are preparing like a special event on the 19th of july Together with music which I find very cool. Um lately John brady has been interacting a lot with the how to say musical scene In order to present wisdom and to connect people with these classics of ancient asia So they're gonna be also having some musicians and like a combination A synergy between music and wisdom happening on the 19th and then on the 20th like more like um one day seminar open talk class for um, everyone who wants to Go deeper and find balance and transcend it as the name of the topic After that, they're gonna be going back to oh, yeah, that's the the project one of the centers that they are supporting And finally after singapore, they are going to malaysia, which is the next picture They yeah Oh, what? Oh, well, okay.

They are going it's gonna be They are right now. They are in indonesia then singapore and then later malaysia Okay So and just to finish with that with this presentation, I would like to mention to remember Sorry to help you remember that october Next picture, please Yes, october diamond mountain is having a celebration on wisdom geshe michael is going to be there Sharing with all of us about aria nagarjuna teachings and some medicine Health improving techniques. It's gonna be happening in october 11th to the 20th. But just before that yeltsin, which is Her birthday celebration today is having a pre-retreat Slide into retreat in diamond mountain where you can go deeper into this Uh wisdom that then geshe-la is gonna go is gonna be taking us in depth And if you really really really have the time Even a little before that you can go to september event ask the waters to stay because diamond mountain is having uh this project where they are really really doing wonderful job about Restoring the environment there They are working with a lot of experts in the topic And i've seen the results. It's just so wonderful if you feel interested about it um planting trees Bringing water to the environment to the atmosphere creating a nice Place for animals people plants to coexist.

This is a great opportunity to do it And speaking of that about planting trees planting flowers We want to mention that uh, the peach tree cafe was awarded lately. Well, it was mentioned in one of the very Okay With the arizona highways, how do you call it online magazine online? newspaper and they are doing very very Wonderfully, I I was there like last week and I was just so amazed on how the gardens and everything is looking at there so then I decided to talk with one of the Persons responsible for that and I want to invite our special guest today denny's more to tell us more about it Uh, and for that i'm gonna be sharing in my screen a wonderful Presentation he prepared for us This here And Can you guys see okay. Yeah, and you you can control you can control it Oh cool.

Yeah. Thank you. Juan.

Thank you.

[Speaker 2]
Welcome.

[Speaker 1]
It's good to have you. Yeah. Thank you for coming We've been planning this for a long time.

I think yeah, I know um the idea of the Peach tree morning show kind of came up while I was working at the cafe. And so with um Let's see, uh So they have the big screen Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, you can see it's happening there. It's happening here Okay. So yeah, yeah, you've been part of the process of like the happening of this wonderful project peach tree cafe in many stages So here in the screen we can see like the very beginnings of well I don't know what's that but you can take us over.

What are you doing? Well, uh, yeah, so, um, I guess a lot. Um, One of the main questions people ask is well, how did you get to meet geshe michael?

Um, and Uh for a lot of us it's coming to the the teachings right is a big question that we like to ask each other and so, um, one of the things that uh came up really early on was well, oh you're the gardener and Throughout my experience at diamond mountain. I kept hearing this word gardener and um fell in love with I embraced that idea and I actually Brought that with me. Um, I went to school for landscape architecture and was gardening in um Connecticut's right in connecticut.

Yeah. Yeah, and so um this the picture with all the machines is uh, that's my cousin and my uncle and My dad would come by every day. And so I was in the dump truck there I was listening to foundation course one my earbuds So take us through take us through the the presentation you have made because I think you have wonderful wonderful, uh pictures About sharing what you've been doing at the cafe Yeah, so, um Thanks.

I'm glad to hear that people like what they see. Um, so The way the gardens at peach street cafe are kind of set up is that they're broken down into smaller pieces And so if you're driving up to the cafe The um, the front yard is it's the first thing that you would see through the window You're just like oh wow, we made it to the cafe and so the um The flower garden there it faces the street and it's kind of framed by two bushes And that's kind of a way that many of the gardens were meant to achieve like a level of Finishing where that things are organized into bays and so that as you're walking there's like a meter to it um So, where did you get that inspiration from? Well, I worked with um veronica and we um We talked a lot about what we were going to do for the cafe and That was from a book and it was from a book called professional planting design.

So um, she helped me, uh to kind of identify that that's what Was going to be helpful so here, um Is like a map of the peach tree gardens and just to kind of see like there was some organization down to a smaller level and um when I look at Taking things to like the next level Then that's kind of how it falls like that. There's more meaning to some of these places So it's not really random at all. You have a very strategic plan on where and how you want the garden to grow Maybe yeah, I wouldn't take too much credit for it It fell into place this way Okay, that's wonderful.

So here's some of the earlier photos from last year in the year before I don't want to spoil it for anyone planning to come soon and Here's baby blue eyes. Um just in a bed with some blue grass under the sign And then here's so I we this is what I came To see in 2021. Yeah I remember that's it before Mm-hmm And then um, so here's like for example, here's the peach tree garden bed.

And so um, it was meant it's peachy right the colors like between the blue and the yellow and um and in the wall and noticing some of the Yeah, what I what I think it's very impressive It's like you have to consider so many elements and you have to how you say you design How you want to see the place to be in the future So you plan ahead of time and this time when we were driving together this morning Remember when I asked you like hey dennis remember how in the book like we have here the king of the dharma um, one of the phases of some kappa is to be a gardener, oh so how how do you connect like for you to be a gardener on how that helps you to understand reality in general like what's your How do you take being a gardener to the um, I don't know enhancing of your daily life maybe Uh, well, that's a fair question. I think um for a long time I was Lucky to have the same job for many years so it became very routine like what my actions were physically and that allowed me to Kind of rest in thinking of like my teachers.

Um, and there's many in this group Um and throughout the day and some of their advices and what they would say and Yeah, I think that Identifying what is helping me like to change my reality? Like what are the what are the good mental seeds that are i'm able to? work with Um just by illuminating them and then what what is all this stuff that's just happening that's beyond that it's not going to help me Change my day.

And so I think working in a beautiful place helps to um because through enjoying and um nature inspires in that way nature and You could see get to see the growth um So you do you do visualize a lot of what you want to see And somehow you come up with an strategy like this has to happen first. I have to plant here So many months in advance in order for this to happen and this is gonna uh, i'll say Allow certain other things to happen. I think you work a lot with processes.

What i've seen is like you have a very um I'll say you can foresee in the future what's going to happen and somehow you prepare in advance for make it happen Well, yeah that well so here's on the screen is a fountain. That's kind of a good example and for a long time the Big mound of rock that I put there was too big, you know I had also had a boss and it was too big and we have to take it down. And so I left Um, the process was that I discovered was that it needed to be sculpted it needed to be um Taken down like a river takes a mountain down and So that was kind of one of the corners that I turned and then if you see in the bottom right how it's been The earth has been sculpted the rock we chose to get rid of Was taken away and there's a boulder there Um, and then so the fountain project was a big part of last year and um, so we got this big rock in the center there that we put it into place and built the the fountain around it so there were things that you know that could have been planned for and then there were things that needed to Okay evolve and grow. I see.

So you leave you learn basically. Yeah, I see. I see what you mean cool So they're yeah in the closer to complete stage, but not spoiling it for you Yeah And then here's a friend.

Um, I got to work with while we were at the cafe and I think that was a big um, like shift, uh, he was Really thankful to be able to have the grounding of coming somewhere every day Yeah, I think just simple things that like really worked for us Yeah, for sure The cafe is a great space to build up community and I want to take the chance to really thank all the people that has been involved and people who came up with the idea especially Geshe Michael for giving the Community a place to just hang out and and make friends and talk to each other You know, it's wonderful.

And I think what you have done and Malibu It's wonderful in Malibu Yeah, look at her there She tells me when to stop. Yeah. Yeah, I think we have to finish now the time is up, but it's very interesting I would like to keep having you time to time.

So keep reporting What are your plans how you are designing the garden and also sharing the wisdom that you learn? Through gardening because I think there is a lot to it. So Maybe if you want to say something else, you're welcome.

And then we have to wrap it up. No, this is great Thanks for having me. Um, just really, um Blessed to be a part of this community.

And yeah, I love when I see when people come and Yes um We have it. We have it in the google drive now. There's more.

Yeah, you're welcome to steal it Thank you And as I was telling you this is only the first time there are more times you can keep coming sharing new projects or experiences that you have been doing through and He is my roommate but the way these days. So thank you very much for the hospitality. It's great to be here Yeah Thank you everyone and see you next time.

See you monday. Have a great weekend. Happy 4th of july where Leave