Бен Крамер — Книга 2: Драгоценность истинной мысли (Геше Йеше Вангчук о Дхармакирти), занятие 38

[Speaker 1]
Hello, everybody. Oh, hi. How's everybody doing tonight?

Tough crowd. Well, God bless. All right.

All right. Hey, you got a haircut with a lawnmower. It was a lawnmower.

It was a I don't recommend trucking. It's very dangerous. I'm very good at it.

It's more like I finally got a haircut. It looks actually it looks hip. Thank you.

Thank you. I gotta look good. For Schwentzheim's Tower, of course.

You're looking quite good yourself, Ken. How's everything? I'm overstressed because we're leaving soon.

I know. How's the preparations? Never mind.

We'll kiss you. Hey, Kramer, why are you here? I thought it was word whispers.

I think so. I'm ostensibly I'm a co-host on. Oh, yeah.

I don't have to do anything. Nick's supposed to be in bed. The design was that I would be extra loud on Monday night so that he could sleep.

He has yet to take advantage of it. But one day we're going to make him actually sleep. Okay.

So, Mr. Kramer, sell something. That's it. Welcome to the mix.

Is it in fact word? Is that who we have? Is word standing by?

There's nothing else to say except to thank everyone. I'm glad everyone's here. It's an honor to be with you yet again.

Even if we have to subject ourselves towards text. I'm very happy to see so many people here. I'm very grateful to the live translators.

Yes. I have no further ado. Dr. Word, are you standing by?

Ben, compared to your text, this one is relaxing. That's nice of you to say. I took a beating preparing for this class, but we'll have fun.

Good. Okay. Yeah, good.

Where is word? I'm sure that he's speeding quickly into position, but I don't know. Seriously?

[Speaker 2]
Seriously.

[Speaker 1]
I'll send him a text right now. We're sending him a message. Are you?

Yeah, I will. Okay, good. Thank you.

We could directly do your text, Ben. That's true. That's true.

Yeah. It's not like words. Maybe he's asleep.

Yeah, he's very good at being present for these things. Quite. He usually wouldn't listen to what's going on.

Could be internet issues. I think so myself. But we could always start with greater.

Let's start with Ben. Is that okay, you guys? I think it's good.

I think it's good. Okay. Okay.

Now I'm nervous about Ben's text. Maybe he had another baby. Who knows?

Okay. Well, I guess I'll do that then. Here we go.

I am going to find my homework and then share my screen. It's a shame dogs can't eat homework anymore. Yeah.

I'm sorry. Bear with me one moment. I did not have it quite ready.

And here we go. Okay. Do we see my screen?

We do. Good. Okay.

Please tell me the five misconceptions or something, okay, that mark the foolish. And then you can give me the Tibetan term that I have provisionally here translated as misconception. And that may not be the right translation.

But you'll know if you were taking careful notes at that class what I've attempted a translation at here.

[Speaker 2]
Taking the rickjay at SEMA.

[Speaker 1]
Great. Cool. Yeah, the first one is, in fact.

What are rickjays? Vedas. Vedas.

Yeah, great. Deal. Yeah.

Don't do that. They're not accurate. Or taking them as accurate as being accurate is one of the five.

What's the second? There is a creator which is unchanging. Yeah, right.

Yeah. Some sort of creator. They do say potentially unchanging.

That's right. Yeah. In the commentary for sure.

Number three. Wait. Gyalsay says...

[Speaker 2]
What's virtuous?

[Speaker 1]
They think it's virtuous? Bathing is virtuous. Well, yeah.

Oh, bathing. Which, you know, you could make an argument for. It's so foreign to my mind.

Okay. Yeah. That could be true if you go to group yoga classes.

It's nice to bathe before you do yoga with other people in close proximity. Number four. Oh, that's a great guess.

And we haven't gotten to the context in which he's making these really specific examples about certain types of mistaken ideas. But you're right. Of course, that is a wrong idea.

But this specific one that he's offered...

[Speaker 2]
Oscar has it in the chat.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, of course he does. I don't have the chat open.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, the arrogant promotion of the caste system.

[Speaker 1]
He was wrong. Sounds right to me. Yeah, right.

Cool. Whoops. Don't look at the last one.

There it is. What's the last one? Flagging yourself, thinking that that's going to get rid of all your negativities.

Yeah, right. Especially jumping on tridents and such. Oh, cool.

Yeah, don't do it. It doesn't work anyway. What's the term here for the five misconceptions or something that mark the foolish?

Or the phrase? Yeah, right. Yeah, great.

Yeah, so totally. And this... I don't know.

I mean, misconception or something. I mean, it's literally... Not that that's how that's spelled.

But it's literally like mixed up wisdom or something. And we're debating whether or not the word wisdom should even make it in there. Or mistaken intelligence or unintelligence.

I'm sure in the end we'll have a clearer translation. The first part of the section on seeing what is hidden is an explanation of logical statements, which are what inference deduction depends on. Tell me the three parts of that section.

And then I'm going to make a request for non-primary translators to give me the... Oh God, this gives it away. Here, I'm going to...

[Speaker 2]
Don't look at that.

[Speaker 1]
Here, tell me... Sorry. How about that?

What are the three parts of that section?

[Speaker 2]
The definition of a correct syllogism, including a classical example.

[Speaker 1]
Including classical examples or a classical example, great.

[Speaker 2]
The divisions, carefully avoiding the Tibetan there.

[Speaker 1]
And confirming that the parts of a syllogism meet the definition. How do you do that? That's nice.

Thank you. Sounds pretty good. It does sound good.

Whoops. Now, would someone who's not a primary translator give me the Tibetan words for definition, example, and division? Definition?

Yeah, Gyel Tse said definition. You and Oscar are correct. How much was that?

How about example? No, they said it at the same time. So it canceled out.

Tsen Chi.

[Speaker 2]
Tsen Chi, for example.

[Speaker 1]
I think I heard Gyel Tse say Tsen Chi at the same time. Yeh Wah. Yeah, good.

Yeh Wah, wonderful. Okay, nice. Oscar, we're going to have to start disqualifying you soon.

Maybe it's long overdue. Great. Nice.

Oh, whoops. Here we go. What five topics do we begin with in the study of understanding the definition of a correct reason?

And would someone, I mean, maybe even Oscar would be allowed, I mean, give it a nice, like, I don't know, five breaths, Oscar, before you tell us the definition of a correct reason in Tibetan. But no primary translators, please. These people are quieter than the dead.

Understanding. Okay, Oscar, you're ready, right? Sorry, I haven't read.

Oh, correct reason is, I don't think I'm ready. All right. Closed.

[Speaker 2]
No, that was a private message, Oscar.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Did he say it? Hey, look at that.

Gyel Tse in the chat. Wow. Good.

Gyel Tse, very nice. You'll see me in about a young documentary. Right.

The tongue at the end there is suspicious, but yes. Good. Great.

So what are the five topics? Do you have a guess, Gyel Tse? What's the first one?

Okay, that's a good place to check.

[Speaker 2]
Deduction that depends on reasoning.

[Speaker 1]
This is the general section we're in. You already, Gyel Tse, you gave us the first of this list.

[Speaker 2]
Nice.

[Speaker 1]
Cool. Yeah, she got that. That's 50 bucks plus the other 50 bucks plus the other 50 bucks.

[Speaker 2]
Second one is three types of general reasons.

[Speaker 1]
Correct reason. It is. That's right.

Yep. Great. And then the third?

Well, I was just cleaning up.

[Speaker 2]
Wow.

[Speaker 1]
Nice. Dang.

[Speaker 2]
Killing it.

[Speaker 1]
Say again.

[Speaker 2]
Oh. Nice.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I got it. D. You got to give her something.

[Speaker 2]
Then what's number five?

[Speaker 1]
I think.

[Speaker 2]
There you go. It's a reason which does not possess all three reasons.

[Speaker 1]
Yay. Correct. Yeah.

Anything else is nonsensy gobbledygook. Yeah. She got it.

Beautiful. So. Okay.

It looks like word will come later. So, okay. Get you, Michael.

I don't know. It's hard. So.

And so I'm going to present my math. So. Here, do we want to do the first for you?

As you said, he doesn't really. Gloss the verse much yet, although. I have a theory about that.

It seems like he may be. Are you glossing versus. As opposed to post glossing versus.

I'll tell you. I, you know, if you search the verses again. After these verses, they don't, they don't occur.

So I hate to say it. I think he started a general commentary and then decided to write a word commentary, but he did not go back and fill in the early verses. And I don't know how far he went before he started making a word commentary.

The great benefit of his commentary is that he explains every word of the root text. But apparently he was not doing that at the beginning. So we're on our own.

He. So, um. Did I read and try to explain what I think I understand.

Yeah. What should we do here. Okay.

Let's talk to a day check. Sorry. Go ahead.

Okay. Yep. Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm having some internet lag. I apologize. I wish I could fix it.

Choke to day check your body. Then sick Danny Nam soon me. May not mean June nature.

Then sick darn on daylation. So, I, I, um, and that maybe I should put this all on one page if I can. Uh, something like that.

Yeah. Uh, I guess. Um, so.

Uh, no, I'm soon me. There were only three. Uh, kinds of day that I need to then sick, which.

Okay. It seems like sometimes means reason and sometimes means. Logical statement, but.

Um, here I kind of thought as reason, which is both. Um, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh , uh, excuse me, or, or which the reason covers chay meaning art.

And I guess I took part to mean part of the choke, uh, so, yeah, yes. Something like, I mean, working backwards from what we know a reason should be, it seems like saying there are three types of reasons where, um, the reason is true of the subject. Um, and then, uh, the reason is necessarily included by the, what do we say?

The asserted quality, the thing we're saying is true about the subject. Um, uh, well, let's, let's go this way. Uh, and by the way, it's extremely difficult.

Uh, why did, why did Geshe-la put those A, B, C, Ds in there? Yeah, right. Uh, because, and, um, you know, maybe I should go to this, uh, version here.

We still have, uh, from the five elements that we talked about the day in the homework. Yeah, so that's, we got to start there. Okay, uh, can you make your, your page bigger for these guys?

Yeah, I can. Okay. This is all I got.

Yeah, so he promised, uh, five different parts to his discussion. Does that help you guys? Or it just helps me, I guess.

Uh, he promised five different parts to his introduction, basically. And what's cool is that, uh, his five, the five parts that he thinks you need to start with to understand Buddhist logic is all hidden in the first verse. All five parts are hidden in the first verse.

It's unbelievable. Okay, he's got all five major topics that he wants to cover for the whole book are covered in the first verse. And it's, you know, by the way, when we debate this, as I told you many times, we debate one month.

We usually cover about two pages. And it's unbelievable. So anyway, uh, so chok chu is, uh, so the A part of his verse, his verse in Tibetan is four lines.

And, uh, the A part is supposed to be what, Ben? Well, um, we're proposing that, uh, the definition of a correct reason is one that has the three relationships. That this is here.

Yeah, so, yeah, the one and a half lines, that goes down to B, okay? Tenzig should be included. Okay?

So tenzig jihir just means a syllogism, okay? Logical statement. Okay?

It emphasizes the fact that a logical statement is composed of three components, similar to a piece of bamboo has different sections to it. Or a piece of, uh, what is that, the reeds that we offer in the fire offering? Those are called sik.

The sections are called sik. The segmented sections of a stick are called sik. Tenzig has that.

Your joints are called sik. Of a human arm or something. Okay?

So this emphasizes that a Buddhist syllogism, and there are many words for syllogism, and we have to choose one eventually, a proper logical statement. You can say tenzig, a logical statement with all its parts. Tenzig has all three relationships.

And he has hidden them in the first line. And it's unbelievable. So chok chö is the first relationship that has the hold of the three.

If three relationships are present, it's a good reason. If any one of those relationships is absent, it's a bad reason. That's the definition of a Buddhist reason.

Okay? So the first relationship, if you count the elements of a logical statement, drachichen mitakte chebichir. Say drachichen.

mitakte chebichir. Let's consider sound. It's changing because it's a made thing.

The most famous logical statement ever made. drachichen mitakte chebichir. And it becomes a mantra.

drachichen mitakte chebichir. drachichen mitakte chebichir. So the first relationship is called chok chö.

The first of the three relationships that it has to hold is called chok chö. And it's the relationship between the first thing I said and the third thing I said. So what was it?

drachichen mitakte chebichir. Say it in Tibetan. drachichen mitakte chepa chepa So the chok chö is drachepa.

One and three. Forget the chö, that just means because. So drachepa, what does that mean?

Sound is made. Is sound made? Is sound made?

Question. Yeah. Yeah, the first relationship holds.

And it's a checklist. You go through three points on your checklist. Does the first thing stated in the reason connect to the third thing stated in the reason?

Yes or no? Is sound a made thing? Check.

We got one out of three. He says, now I want you to pay attention to a cha of that relationship. A part.

Cha means a part. Cha, cha, cha, cha. Cha means a part.

So what was the first relationship? Sound is made. And he says, now I want you to focus on one of those two parts.

And it's the second part. What's the second part? Sound is made.

Being made. That's the cha here. Chok chö means the first relationship, covered.

Then we take a part of the first relationship, which is chepa, which is made. Take that part. By the way, Ben, in some texts it's de yi cha, de yi che.

Which would have been more clear. Which would have been more clear. So we take the part of the first relationship, which is made.

And that's the khyapa-er. The thing that covers the other thing. Yeah.

And the second two relationships are called coverings or necessary relationships. Does does a human being cover Sugeng? Yeah.

If he is who he seems to be. So now we take sound and, sorry, made. And for the second two relationships to hold, it must cover something.

What should it cover? What's left? The second item mentioned.

Let's take sound. Sound is changing because it's made. Is it true that if a thing is made, it has to be changing?

Yeah. Then we say che khyapa, Ben. Che khyapa.

The component of the first relationship is now covering another component, which happens to be the second one. If something is made, it must be changing. By the way, that's a khyapa.

If da-da-da, then ba-ba-ba. Now we're supposed to have three elements of a correct reason. There's a sub-khyapa.

There's a re-confirmation khyapa, which is called dop khyapa. Relationship number one. One is three.

Relationship number two. If three, then two. Relationship number three.

If it's not two, it cannot be three. You should remember that for the rest of your existence, which is eternal. You say one is three.

Check. If three, two. Check.

If not two, not three. There's a huge debate because... You want to go deeper?

If it's true that if three, two, then it's always true that if not two, not three. It's almost redundant. It's almost unnecessary to say it.

If you're a human, I don't know, you have two legs, generally. Then if you don't have two legs, you're not a human. I mean, so what's the point?

That seems like the third relationship is just dependent on the second relationship. But there's a reason for it. Trust me.

Later. So, Ben, in the first line and a half, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, nine syllables, he has defined Buddhist logic. Yes, I think there's a problem.

He has defined like a thousand years of Buddhist logic. What's the problem? I'm so sorry, but the cha can't be the reason because the reason doesn't cover, it doesn't gyabwa the assertion, right?

So if we say Sugeng is a human. Let's take Sugeng. He has two legs.

Let's take Sugeng. He has two legs because he's a human. Or you could say, let's take Sugeng.

He's a human because he has two legs. It doesn't really matter. It does matter.

Well, okay, let's say, I'm just giving a rough definition. There are birds with two legs also. Right, but the problem is the gyabwa has to work in one direction.

So if we say he's a human because he has two legs, we'd be in trouble. If we say Sugeng's a human because he's a man, that's easy. Okay, let's do that.

Let's do that. Let's take Sugeng. He's a human because he's a male.

Male human. What's doing the gyabwa-ing there? If it's a male human, then it's a human.

Yeah, human, right? But human's not the reason. Man's the reason.

So it can't be part of the cho-chu. Yeah, but cover here means if it's that, it has to be the other. That's all.

Cover logically. If he's a male human, then he has to be... Or would you rather the...

Do you think cho-chu's cha is the dukje-chu? I think it has to be. Then is it true that...

Okay, then let's take an orange. It's a fruit because it's one kind of fruit, right? An orange is a fruit because it's one kind of fruit.

Yeah, those are synonymous. But if we say orange is a food because it's a fruit, or it's a food because it's an edible fruit, if you want to cover your butt, but we don't need trouble, then still the... the dukje-cha is the thing doing the work of khyaba-ing.

[Speaker 2]
Right?

[Speaker 1]
If cha is in the adjective here, if that matters, if it's instrumental, then the thing that does the khyaba that covers the other thing should be potentially the bigger item. The bigger group should be the cha. And that is...

That would have to be the dukje-cha, I think. So he should have said dukje de che khyaba-yi. Well, this is the problem.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand your point though, and it could be correct. And he doesn't gloss it.

So let's move on. But the point is all three relationships are revealed in the first line and a half. Okay?

And the first element is easy, right? chok chu, if one, then three. Okay?

Then you're saying the day is a different thing, and perhaps the day is dukja. The assertion. The assertion.

Right. The dukje-cha would be the khyaba-er. Right.

Yeah, I think that's right. That's possible. We'll check, okay?

Right. Especially if a reason could be... If in order for a reason to be correct, and there are only three types of those, then it has to be both something which is a chu of the chok, and it has to be something that is covered by the dukje-cha, which would be the other part of a syllogism.

You could say no, because the cha has to be the coverer, right? Right, yeah, the cha, it has to be covered by it. You see?

Right, so the cha would have to be the dukje-cha. I don't know, that's what I'm trying, boss. I got it.

Let me check, okay? It's a good point. It's a good point.

Let me check it. Let's keep going. They need...

By the way, it's frustrating, because we're going to have to go check another commentary, because he doesn't explain it. They need namtsu. Yeah?

You know, I was just wondering too, if tensik, does that usually refer to just syllogisms in general, or is it specifically used to reference a correct syllogism? I don't know, because there is such a thing as tensik dan nang, and tensik... For example, right here.

It could be a mistaken syllogism. Okay. Okay, de ni nam sung nyi ben.

Oh yeah, there's three and only three of those. Yeah, that's easy. Yay!

Now, C and D, he kind of mushed them together. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

There's a reason why... Oh yeah. So, I guess because without one thing, the other thing can't arise, or something.

Yeah, I think it means if the three relationships did not hold, the tensik could not occur. You see what I mean? If you didn't have...

If a logical statement didn't have the three components... Sorry. Yeah, if it didn't have the three necessary relationships, then min jung means it's definite that you would not have a tensik, a correct tensik.

Okay? It's also, it's tempting to take this one, Geshe-la, as being the dokya. Yeah, maybe.

I don't... Yeah. Right?

Without the one you couldn't have the other one? Yeah. But that's true of the kyaba too, isn't it?

Yeah. Well, that's true. It's just not stated in the affirmative.

Yeah, it is. Of course it is. Yeah, so...

I don't... Yeah, okay. I don't know.

E is easy. How about E? Let's go to E!

Yay! Oh, by the way, the mena... Yeah, the mena...

Yeah, the mena is like, if those relationships are not there, it's not. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and that's why, I guess, right?

So that should be why there are only three types.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Because without one thing, the other thing can't exist or can't be there. So what's the one thing and what's the other thing? The two elements...

The two elements of the two possible relationships. Okay, yeah, right. The cause and effect are the...

Yeah, the relationship... The relationship of identity. Okay, okay.

Two brothers, that's nice. Okay, and then de le shen, anything other than that is a... We'll say a faulty reason or something.

Yeah, any reason that... Or a wrong syllogism. Yeah, and by the way...

That isn't like that. Yeah, that's... tar nang is an interesting word because we are taught in the monasteries from the time you're a kid to say bad reason is called tenzig tar nang.

But it's a... It has a very deep meaning in and of itself, tar nang. Which means it just looks like.

Tar nang, bad reason means just looks like a reason. The word has two sexy pieces that means just looks like. See what I mean?

Tar nang means looks like. Yes, yes. Yeah, apparently.

Which means fake. Yeah, okay. Let's go to...

Okay. Yeah, okay. Go to the commentary.

Yeah. Let's talk about this and then I'm going to ask you a general question. Okay.

ni pa tenzig yi ye wa la sundu ye wa dang dum yi du ne pa du pa o So here then is the second section that we just mentioned a moment ago which is going to offer divisions of correct logical statements.

[Speaker 3]
Good.

[Speaker 1]
So first the three types of correct logical statements are given and then it will be proven or proved that there are only exactly three. Yeah, no more, no less. Okay.

Just like a general question about voice or something like how we're going to handle using the commentator's voice or like we could say we're going to set forth and then prove this thing or I'm going to set forth as the author and then prove this thing or we could say our presentation is going to set forth and then prove or are we saying the vartika right, the dharmakirti sets something forth and then proves something or I prefer we Just how would you address this? I prefer we because it's more friendly. This book is unfriendly enough already and yeah and I would always speak from from the author's point of view I'd say we.

Okay. Okay, great. That's what I'll do.

And that's what we've done the first 12 books or something. Okay. It's just more friendly.

Okay. Yeah, someone has to break their teeth on this one. Oh, you translated it.

You want to choose someone to read it? Sure. Let me Is there anyone in the room who wants to or who do you?

Oh, Kielce has been acting heroically so far. I think we got another royal Let's see. Or any kind of chair.

But we had one big one here somewhere. Oh, you were sitting on that.

[Speaker 2]
I thought your stuff was there. Sorry. I thought that's where you were sitting.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, sorry. The two chairs are quite different. You can sit on the book.

It's a pretty thick book. Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Okay, cool. Stay and we'll finish.

We'll go through this. Here's that first part on the three types of reasons. There are three types of reasons.

First thing we're putting forth is that they can be by result, by I said identity because I know we've used that before, or by way of not seeing something. Yeah, or not existing. Not appearing is fine.

Okay. We have to choose less confusing verbiage, but this is okay for now. Okay.

And then I guess to lay from among those the oh boy the reason which supports an assertion a drup ja Okay, yeah. The assertion which the reason is supposed to prove Yeah, oh that's interesting. I see.

Okay, so that's the all right, well I got that backwards. Okay, but then in that case the assertion which the reason is supposed to prove should either deny something or affirm something. It must either do one of those two things.

Either you're trying to prove something is or you're trying to prove something is not. Okay, good. Great, okay.

And then oh, then a reason that gets you to understand that something is there? Yeah, a reason which is used in trying to help someone understand the truth of a positive statement. Something like that.

Yeah. Yeah, then there are only two kinds of those and it's either by result or by identity. Yeah, and the rung is rung shen, right?

Yeah. And by the way, it's not a mistake up above. It's just a helpful addition I put in there.

Okay. When you say je bu dang rang shing When you say je bu dang rang shing gi dak you often reduce it to je rang. Okay, listen.

je bu dang rang shing gi dak je rang. Okay, all right. So the rung is understood to be rung shen.

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Keep going. Yeah. So then I guess a a a reason which is a result or based on result is that reason which which is excuse me which is based on which is based on the which is based on the cause and result relationship of those two things which I'm guessing would be the the asserted quality and the reason Good, yeah.

And that's the reason that gets you to hold on to the cause, that brings you an awareness of what is caused. Yeah. So basically it's a case where we divided a logical statement into three parts like one, two, three.

If the relationship between two and three is cause and effect then it's called a result you know, a result reason or something like that. Which means we're trying to prove a result? Yeah.

Right, we're trying to prove a result. du den gyi la la chod chen me yu de duwa yinpay che Well, no, we're trying to prove a cause. Oh, sorry, sorry.

I'm sorry. We're trying to prove a cause. Let's take a what?

What's the classic one? Take a mountain covered in smoke. Yeah.

There must be fire because there's smoke. Yeah, so the dak here is smoke and the drup che chu is that there is fire. No, just fire.

Okay, just fire. Just strip it out. What we're trying to prove is a fire.

The reason we're using is smoke. So when the when what you use as a reason is a result and what you're trying to prove is a cause then that is the kind of reason called a cause and effect reason or something like that. That's all.

And by the way, there's no denial. It's a positive statement. There is smoke.

Sorry, there is a fire. If that had been if the statement had been there was not something, that would have been the third kind of reason. Negative reason.

Alright, we'll get there. So positive reasons have to be one of two types. Either the thing you mentioned last is the result of the thing you mentioned second or they are what you mentioned third is always what you mentioned second.

Take sound, it's changing because it's made. Then all made things are changing. Okay, that's all.

Cool? There's a relationship of identity. Okay, DE DAG DANG, DE NI RANG BZHIN GCIG YIN PA And I get blue.

Yeah, when those same two parts, I guess two and three, the reason and the a certain quality or something and the reason. When those two share one nature or share one identity in some way. When is the case that to be one is to be the other?

Reason by identity. Okay, good. So basically there's two positive kinds of logical states.

One where it's cause and effect and one where to be one is to be the other. I like to translate it that way. Cool.

That's hard. That's really hard. You just kind of did these.

I did these and I want you to... What happened is he did not give examples. He did not give any examples.

I just gave you the fire and smoke thing so you could understand what the heck was going on. So what I did was in my notes, I went in and put in the examples. Then I thought it would be useful to take them from Adam's first text, which is a dura text, which is an elementary monastic logic text.

Then I realized that particular text has no dak rik. It has no study of syllogisms in it. So I couldn't use it.

So I went to the study of syllogisms, which is in the syllabus of Seramay Geshe course, which is extremely famous. So dak rik means study of syllogisms. So we're going to take our examples from a famous study of syllogisms that all monks learn in Seramay.

By the way, those syllogisms are mostly the same in any monastery of the Tsongkhapa tradition. So here's the example of a dredd dak yang dak ben. Do you want to have somebody read it?

Sure.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Gyaltsen, is there anyone else in the room you would pick? Can you choose the next big thing?

[Speaker 2]
Let's put a bigger chair.

[Speaker 1]
You should see how small people get when she... Yeah, here we got a real royalty chair. Hang on.

Okay. So he said there are two positive kinds of logical statements. One where there's a cause and effect relationship going on, and one where there's a relationship of identity going on.

And here are the classical examples which if you have them it's so much easier. Life is so much easier. So here it is.

You're going to read these two lines. And I'm sorry they're not capitalized.

[Speaker 2]
brak dak dredd dak dredd dak yang dak du den gyi la la chu khen chu khen mi yor chu khen mi yor de du wa yor pay che Nice.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Ben, dredd dak yang dak. Yeah, a reasoning...

I mean, it's either a reasoning based on result or you could say it's even a reason which is a result. Yeah, something like that. We'll figure it out.

Dredd dak yang dak. A correct logical statement where the final element is a result. And you translate the...

By the way, for Lindsay the first two syllables we call it open vowel. It means there's no suffix letter. It only has two letters which means the second letter is a U by itself, right?

So it's particularly vulnerable. There's nothing to protect it from the next syllable. The next syllable L-D always starts with n, n-d, n-d.

So you emphasize, over-emphasize the N sound between them which is dun den. Say, du den gyi la la chu che. Yeah, good.

What's the most famous word like that? Ganden monastery. There's no N in it.

There's no N there. It's ga and then n-den. And luckily you have a teacher who taught you prenasals.

Otherwise I mean every monk misspells ganden until they're like 25 years old or something. Okay. du den gyi la la chu che.

Ben, translate. Yeah. Consider that where there is smoke on a mountain pass.

Yeah, unfortunately la is the universal prefix like t-o in English too. But it also means mountain pass. So la la means what?

[Speaker 2]
On the mountain pass.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, on the mountain pass. So du den gyi la la chu che. Let's consider a mountain pass that has a lot of smoke.

Du is an abbreviation for dua which means smoke. Let's consider us... And by the way, we're talking massively covered by smoke.

You can't even see the trees. me yu de? It's got fire there.

There must be a fire under there because... It's got smoke there. Yeah, because there's so much smoke there.

And that's a cause and effect. That's a that's a correct logical statement of the kind which features a result. Now, that's one of the two positive kinds of logical reasons.

The other positive kind of logical reason is the one where the two elements are somehow equivalent. Let's read that one, Ben. Yeah, don't leave, Lorenzi.

It must be yours. She said she's dying to read the second one.

[Speaker 2]
rang shen gyi thag yang thag Do those three.

[Speaker 1]
gra chu I don't recognize it because it's lowercase. gra chu chen mi thag te ja pay che The most famous logical statement of all time, the granddaddy of all logical statements, say, gra chu chen mi thag te che pay che Yeah, okay. Which is the classical rang shen gyi thag.

The classical reason where the two elements share a relationship of identity is gra chu chen That's consider sound. Consider sound. It's mi thag te.

Yeah, because it's made. Because it was made. And you have to be very careful with the words you use in logic.

We'll have to be very careful. You can't say produced, you can't say impermanent. You have to be extremely careful in logic.

Extremely careful of your choice of words. Okay, let's go on. Here, let's see.

Okay, so Lindsey, would you pick a victim?

[Speaker 2]
Jacqueline. Jacqueline.

[Speaker 1]
Yay, Jacqueline. I like your outfit. Okay, here we go.

Up here.

[Speaker 2]
Oops, sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you're good.

[Speaker 2]
I don't know.

[Speaker 1]
That's okay. Ben, you're helping her. Oh.

[Speaker 2]
Right?

[Speaker 1]
It's going well.

[Speaker 2]
mi thag te thag she ja ja, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
thag gi drub ja gakpa What the logical statement is trying to prove is a gakpa. Is a lack. Yeah.

Something is not there. And unfortunately, unfortunately, it can also refer to not being something. So we say negative, okay?

Let's just say negative. Which is funny because drub means positive. So when what you're trying to prove is negative in some way, when it's meant to give you an understanding of something negative, koche, we call it a gaktak.

Yeah. Right, it could be called a negative reason. Yeah, or a reason a reason for a denial of some kind, okay?

A reason for a denial of some kind. Or we can, sam here means or, we could call it a ma mikpay tak. A reason based on something not being there.

Yeah, or something's absent, or something's not observed there. Okay? Cool.

And here's the classical example. And by the way, I struggled through this 50 years ago. And I almost gave up.

And then I decided to try harder. And so all these examples are in my head now. Well, I have none of your skill, but I'm not going anywhere.

You ever saw that little green book? Okay, so here you go. Who's going to come up next?

Here's a classical example of a negative reason. Sivan! Yay!

By the way, I made this note here and it just proved, I mean, I figured it out, but I made this note a long time ago. And I was just starting to realize he wasn't going to help us. And I was kind of irritated.

Okay. Anyway, here we go. Please read here.

Doesn't matter capital or not capital.

[Speaker 2]
dracho chen dakpa mayin te Good. japa yin pichir Nice.

[Speaker 1]
Let's take drac sound. It is not dakpa. It's not unchanging.

Because it's main. It's something that was made. This now becomes a different genre of logical reason.

This now becomes a negative logical statement. Because what you're trying to prove now is negative. It is not unchanging.

So when the assertion is negative, it flips to the third kind of logical statement. The third genre of logical statement. For proving something is not there.

Or proving something isn't something. Proving something negative. Cool?

The three great divisions of logic. And by the way, once you learn this and you have a fight with your wife about which restaurant to go to, it's really fun to say, oh, that was a dukje too. Or, oh, that was a positive statement.

They're like, it doesn't make them. Okay. We stopped there, I think.

That was what you asked me to translate. Oh, okay, okay. Let me pick something to translate next.

Let me share my screen. Let me see. Can I undo your...

Yeah. Yeah. Here we go.

Please. Okay, let me get this up here. From my side, I have done this.

Yeah. Yeah, let's see here. Yeah, here.

We're down to here. Yeah, so try to translate this shesik she dang sung, right? Okay?

The next part. Yes. And translate You know this reason here.

I mean, you can just read it. And then translate this paragraph. Okay?

And translate these two. And translate this last reason here, where it says just common. Oh, that's all right.

You don't need to translate that. I'm sorry. Okay.

Cool? Yeah. I'm sorry.

I'm having a little lag. Would you just make a little mark in the text where I'm stopping there after translate down for 1.3. Translate down to 1.3. Translate down to 1.3. Okay, thank you. No problem.

I mean, it'll be a terrible problem, but I'll do it. Yeah, by the way, it's only going to get worse. And I did warn you like two years ago.

I'm into it. Okay. It's my honor.

Now I go sit down and you... We're putting you in a very funny position here. Yeah, you got to lead a conversation based on this.

You stay, I go. I don't know if you want to un-share your screen, boss. So everyone can mug for the spotlight.

Good. Now you have to help me, everybody, about what it is we think we can use from what we've learned here. That's obviously difficult.

I'll try a little bit to get the ball rolling, but be preparing yourself to say something so that I feel supported. And I guess we're learning about reasons. One of the things that I feel like I've noticed in my life is that we think we have reasons for everything we do, but we don't examine them very closely.

We used to play this game back in the Diamond Mountain days, back when we were living in the dirt and debating with each other all the time. We would learn these three tasks for a correct reason. We would write them up on the board and we would take turns trying to come up with a correct reason, and we found it's very difficult to come up with a correct reason.

And even when we had them written on the board, it was hard. Usually someone could find the flaw in my argument. Usually someone could show me, we could show each other the ways that our reasons were not correct.

That was when we were trying to be careful. Are you all as frozen for me as I am for you? Am I as frozen for you as I am?

Yeah. Yeah, okay. So I guess my question is if it's hard to make a correct reason when we're trying to be very careful and we think we have reasons for everything we do all day, how likely is it that our reasons for the things we do all day are correct?

[Speaker 2]
100% You know Ben, I'm noticing I'm working with a young person who is very troubled and they defend their troubled situations that they are feeling victim to that they must endure all day and if I could master this whole idea of tearing apart a conversation or an explanation of drama to logically propose solutions, it could be very helpful.

[Speaker 1]
I think that's right. Because this person works hard to defend their suffering and I'm thinking gosh, you know, I need to get more skillful at logically tearing apart their interpretation of their suffering so that we could then be open to talking about solutions. Anyway, I see maybe Geshe Michael's example is more clear, you know, defending which restaurant to go to for dinner with the wife, but I think there's some good tools here we can use to help suffering.

I'll tell you, we also I think it's worth pointing out that we're in a section of the book called Deduction for our own sake and we didn't yet get to deduction for other people's sake in that order. I think we have to be very cautious in offering reasons to other people before we've learned to offer them well to ourselves and I don't know what's going to happen when we get to that. You know, we talk a lot about realizations like Tokbas and I think we're kind of getting some very introductory tools to use in generating realizations for ourselves.

Like, I haven't been able to prove to myself that past and future lives are reality. I've got a very good hunch that it's probably the case but I think we're kind of getting some very useful tools that's going to be helpful as we progress along the path to prove things like past and future lives to ourselves. I think that's only going to reinforce our ability to really put wholehearted effort into changing ourselves and spreading the Dharma.

So I think, you know, for me logic seems very dry at first but it refines our mind from what I'm just speaking personally. I've learned that it's really refined the way that I look at the world which has then reinforced my ability to practice and to really share what I know with other people. Yeah.

Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, I think so.

[Speaker 3]
It's interesting.

[Speaker 1]
I just have this terrible lag and I'm talking over everybody. I apologize. I'm excited to hear what you have to say.

[Speaker 3]
I just wanted to share that when I got out of the class, even though this was a deep, heavy class for me is I'm going to go get myself a little green book and I'm going to write down that phrase that Geshe-la talked about and he said that we need to memorize it and if it took him a while to get it in his mind to be able to try and teach it in the way that he has delivered, it seems so smooth and slick but then I can't even try to explain it or use a statement so I'm going to go get myself a little green book, I'm going to write it down and I'm going to try to memorize it in hopes that one day I can embody the statement of the one equals three then if three equals two then if not two cannot be three and it always has to be two if one is three and I'm just going to try and memorize it and put it into practice.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that's wonderful. It's nice to have a friend for that, you know, if you can if you can pick someone in the world who's willing to practice it with you that's what I needed is someone who will go through it again and again and again who doesn't get tired of doing it it's really helpful, it's it takes repetition and that's there's unless you somehow have some extraordinary seed to be able to just pick it up and learn it which I sure don't but I had extraordinary friends and an extraordinary teacher extraordinary teachers who never got tired of teaching me and letting me practice with them we used to have in Cincinnati, Ohio back in 1932 or something when I was first studying we used to have a time where friends and I we would sit just for an hour on Sundays where I had to name a thing in the world and then someone had to name something else that shared a relationship of identity with that thing that was smaller or a relationship of identity with that thing that was bigger and you have to name a bigger thing or you have to name a smaller thing and then we would take turns going back we would do this for an hour every Sunday and it was hard but we did it every Sunday you just find the silly weirdos like we have gathered here today who are willing to even excited to just practice challenging each other

[Speaker 3]
thank you Ben I love it

[Speaker 1]
thank you anyone else willing to share thoughts or applications would be nice anything you feel like you can bring into your life through our struggle

[Speaker 3]
Rob's getting in place I have an idea

[Speaker 1]
go

[Speaker 3]
you were talking about the practice through repetition and practicing the syllogism and memorizing that

[Speaker 1]
and the time that it takes to do that also I see a need for making time

[Speaker 3]
slowing down our day getting to the result a little bit slower to give ourselves the space for mindfulness to check our automatic assumptions and see the correctness of the way I'm going about my assumptions that I make in the micro moments

[Speaker 1]
like are the cats singing at me because they're actually hungry are they begging for food or are they just being playful and saying hi that's beautiful you know when you said practical application because I love the whole idea of clear thinking and I think for me it's helped me so much over time and I was getting coffee today and talking to the manager and she's hiring people and I said how much I love interviews but she hates them because she said people she finds people aren't always telling the truth and I suggested sort of like using her gut a little bit but what I meant was that I think over time because you start to develop your mind to be a little bit more clear you start to see trajectories or you have little insights and I think you get really good at reading people I think it makes you really super efficient in the workplace and I think you can start to see not that they're not obvious to one person not so obvious to another but it really helps I think recruiting like recruiting talent for example like my old company was all about recruiting and development and so I found that logic has helped me sort of in that process you know that's why I just love these classes all the time it helps my brain get clear so that was my practical application I like when Ben's frozen

[Speaker 3]
isn't that a great smile

[Speaker 1]
yeah because I know Ben so well in my mind I kind of I don't know I can see what he's thinking a little bit I think he's completely frozen someone should take a screenshot I think he's genuinely he might be stuck for a while alright let's move on then thanks for sharing Rob and everybody thanks for chiming in about clear thinking and logic and I also think it's super important in our lives and at this point let's move on to the Peachtree World News broadcast for this week do we have Juan Jaso standing by there he is so thank you everybody for class thank you so much Keshe Michael and thank you Ben for amazing translations amazing work on this difficult difficult material and coming to you live from Kyoto, Japan it looks like I can tell by that umbrella in the background that must be Kyoto exactly we actually were looking like where can we see that actually looks like Kyoto so here we are and we are very happy to be seeing all of you thank you for being here I made it I don't know how this happened team it's a dream come true thank you Keshe Michael thank you everyone we have to be quiet here ok guys so we're gonna share I'm also slow because you think you have translators Juan we have to tell people a few news and then we're gonna talk to this guy to tell us what is he up to today and in the next few days so first of all we want to remind you about this very cool app that Diamond Cutter Press is launching has launched and Gina if you could please help us sharing the very first image just to remind you that the whole library of Keshe Michael works is here you can find it and you can have it in your phone you don't need to carry the books around because now in your phone at the how to say right there in your hand at the palm of your hand you can access this wonderful material and you're gonna find many many many materials you can use these QR codes to go there download the app get the materials you're gonna have them with you you can personalize your reading experience there and also three devices can log in at the same time so let's say teams get it and then I don't know he can share the books that he buys with I don't know two more friends he's doing something with his phone maybe he's gonna get something I'm gonna download it right now alright that's awesome yeah go there click and well that's one thing Diamond Cutter Press the app it's there you can get it get the books it's gonna support all the translators it's gonna support the work of preserving this ancient wisdom in the world it's a great win-win situation as I like to say and next we want just to remind you that next Monday we're gonna have a special interview event with YSI team fast for hunger the interview is happening on Monday but the actual event is happening on Wednesday and the interview is gonna be with this yoga teacher Earl's friend Laura Joanna she's a great YSI supporter she has been studying is the next picture please she has been studying all this content for a few years and she runs a few organizations who help this mission of removing hunger in the world next one please yes there she is Earl and her Laura Joanna we're gonna be having an interview on Monday with them next Monday and finally this is why we have our friend Tim Lau here because what's happening what's happening well we're starting a brand new program here Juan and we're really excited we have 10 students so it's a very intimate experience and we're gonna be starting a series of 18 courses here for those people in Asia who have not had an experience of the 18 courses live we're gonna start here in Kyoto that's awesome and this is just happening in an hour from now as soon as this class next class finishes Tim is gonna move we're in a very beautiful venue in Kyoto Kyoto is amazing Japan in general is basically my first time here and we were just talking about like wow this looks like so science fiction Tim and I were just coming here using the subway with our headphones on listening to the class you know it's like so futuristic like we were listening directly what was happening in the other side of the world just now and yeah just the vibe here I think it's so clean so beautiful very modern but at the same time so connected with nature and I just been here like a little less than 24 hours no jet lag I'm surprised I don't know what happened but how has it been for you let's wait to this afternoon and see what you think about that okay yeah I've been here a couple of days so the jet lag is we're pretty good right now but what's really neat about this city is there's a tremendous Gina you can stop sharing the screen right now this city has a there's a very traditional feel here you know it feels very like a very great place to learn the ancient wisdom and to study it and you know having one here for the first time congratulations for making it thank you very much he had obstacles he almost missed a flight he missed a train you know typical many adventures many adventures in 24 hours I'll tell you more later but we're really fun we're really excited to be here the whole team has been working on this in the background and what we have with these 10 students here we're very excited for it's 10 classes one is going to lead the meditations and we have Q&A every day here so we're it's going to be a very special class I bet I'm excited and if you want to come if you're feeling jealous and you wanted to be here we have another class coming up in June very soon so put that on your calendar I don't know Gina if you have the QR code for that but you can sign up directly Ale could you just put that directly in the chat thank you yeah is it June 4th to the 8th right something like that I think it is now that I have to communicate the news I get to learn the content yes it's for June 4th to the 8th and we have a picture somewhere there but you'll see it sometime soon we'll keep letting you know I'm really excited that you're here Juan for your very first time thank you so much I'm enjoying it very very much and yeah we'll tell you more of the adventure so far we are preparing good materials for you to feel more connected with Kyoto it's a great great place to visit to come if you haven't done it yet try to do it sometime and I think in the future this place is going to be full of wonderful activities related like content wise activities retreats classes seminars conferences it looks amazing for the whole world of the organization not just this but there's going to be across the organization maybe one day we even get an apartment here who knows alright thank you Juan no thank you as well and to finish this segment we would like to also share with you

[Speaker 2]
our last event you know we have one big event a month last time we did it in March and the main topic

[Speaker 1]
of it was how to use communication skills the way we speak basically to great harmony and success in our lives so we have many guests including Tim as well one of them was Chloe she was sharing with us some of the cause and effects how is it now cause yes cause and results that come once you use the SIT system well they actually they come anyways you use it or not but she was sharing with us some of them and she didn't finish her segment so here she is with us to finish sharing some of the cool things that she wants to share okay excuse my English yeah so Chloe are you there?

[Speaker 2]
yes hello everyone hello thank you Juan I'm glad you made it so I would just like to share a few points I'm going to share this so as you may remember we talk about the harmony in a small union will bring harmony to the bigger country or the whole world and remember what's the biggest thing that harmony can bring us what's the result of harmony brings us so it's our teacher right I think for any success in our lives having a teacher is major so I would like to continue this discussion from today on or this whole year on how you can bring harmony in your communities because harmony in our communities is the cause of a teacher's long life so talking about success we naturally think about financial abundance so here are some of my ideas on what is the seed that brings financial abundance please feel free in the chat to share with us what do you think is the seed that would bring forward financial success so in here I think about generosity in our speech being generous in our listening and even with our body language when we are communicating with somebody our body language is also important share information generously and listen carefully and I'll talk more about the listening in the next few stories and I think generous in praising others' success and good qualities that's something we can all do and that can bring us some hopefully financial success so now it's story time what are the seeds to bring a successful relationship so think about the relationship I think about there is a story very interesting in here it's about this person Elisabeth wants to practice with her husband and she asks how do I do this so in that story she shares why do you think your husband has this t.v. addiction what kind of seeds that's in your mind that makes you perceive a person has zero interest in others in the room so she says well I guess I ignore people all the time in small ways I have a colleague at work she always tells me about her husband's problem you know I try really hard to focus but I really can't after 10 times of complaining the same thing I just couldn't really focus but I really try to be polite so basically the secret that Geshe-la decoded in this scenario is that listening to other people's problem with full attention then that gets back to you as your husband wants you to ask you can I join your yoga next time so if you want to have a relationship where you get to where you want to have a partner to practice together that can be a good way and I want to show you how to use this platform where it talks about relationship and listening so this is my account I can log in and then I can go to this and I can even do a search so I search and locate in my book I can highlight where I want to read so the ancient books of Tibet make a really big emphasis on answering people promptly and considerably whether it's a question about what's for dinner or where the universe came from really make a point in the next few weeks maybe we all can try this to listen really carefully whenever someone asks you about anything try to give them a thoughtful answer sometimes we try to avoid some questions because it's silly or you know not interesting sometimes we avoid it because it's difficult but try to make a point to do it and then see what changes in your life maybe people will be more interested in your class in your offering in your practice thank you so much

[Speaker 1]
thank you very much Chloe thank you very much and I think it's wonderful that we have the chance to check a little bit of the content that is in the book because then people can expect what kind of valuable information is there so for those of you who haven't how to say had the chance to read the book I think many how to say many people can agree with this this book has become one of the most practical tools that we use all the time talking with friends and the like or family and stuff it's like well have you read the Karma of Love because you find so much practical information there do you have a particular memory team of something cool that you remember I'm going to avoid the question just like the Diamond Cutter Business Book I use this book quite frequently when I'm having a challenge in any relationship not just

[Speaker 3]
romantic relationships I try to find

[Speaker 1]
what is the challenge that I have and then I go into the index which is incredibly detailed, look for the problem and then find the seed and go after that and just last night you were telling us how much your dating life has improved in the last few years right exponentially I would say so much that sometimes you have to say please people take it easy I'm busy I'm just kidding but apparently it works so you can check it out maybe can we show the QR code again if you feel inspired it's a great book it's a great book for reading yourself but it's a great book also if you want to give someone a present or stuff like that birthdays, Christmas many more so thank you very much that's it for today we're going to keep reporting of what's happening in Kyoto there's going to be very very cool events the spring time is about to come there is wonderful things in the city to get to see and we're going to try to somehow give you some share of it so you can connect at least in this way for now and hopefully one day you can come as well that sounds like I'm joking maybe one day you can also have the experience I'm having he's inspiring each and every one of you to come here it's a beautiful place the spring time is coming the sakura flowers will be opening very soon we'll send some pictures to you as well we will have to go and check the surfing scene see you thank you Geshe Michael okay we're on you guys did you guys locate Mr. Smith? he's here all right hey Geshe-la sorry for the mix up I thought I was second is it true that your dog ate your homework?

my dog I hope you feel better you have a cold?