Адам Андраде — Книга 2: Логика. Рассеивая тьму, занятие 20

[Speaker 1]
We should give her a hand. Yay, Venerable Ali! Woo!

Woo! Venerable Ali spends hundreds of hours getting the books printed and driving Grandpa around. And Stanley and Allison help a lot.

They support a lot of the work in many, many, many ways that you guys don't even know about. So, thank you. All right, let's get to work.

No more congratulations. I probably forgot somebody, and I'm sorry. I just think about the book, and I forget about it.

I also forgot. All right, here we go. Is Adam here?

I don't think he was feeling up to it. I'm checking with him, but... He's not feeling well.

He didn't get his vaccination, so I hope everyone's getting their vaccination, okay? Catherine Yin told me she wanted to be Adam for the first part of today. Here we go, and Ellie is checking her.

Venerable Ellie is checking her, okay? Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Hello. Hello. Hello.

Hello. Hello. Hello.

Hello. Hello. Hello.

Hello. Hello. Hello.

Hello. Hello. Hello.

[Speaker 3]
Hello.

[Speaker 2]
Hello. Hello.

[Speaker 1]
Hello. Yay! Good job!

[Speaker 2]
Very good.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. What was the dinner?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Yeah, basically, he's saying that there's only one kind of perception, accurate perception, that's direct accurate perception. Therefore, logic, thinking things out, true or false, that requires mental pictures, mental abstractions.

And according to him, those are not real, right? So then, since you can't have logic, you cannot perceive anything which you cannot perceive with your eyes, okay? So, all the things in the world, the deeper things in the world, you cannot confirm if you follow this guy's thinking.

You cannot confirm them. Here's a list of things you could not confirm, okay? First one, SKYE BA SNGA PHYI.

What's that mean, you guys?

[Speaker 3]
Past and future lives.

[Speaker 1]
Past and future lives, you could not confirm. You could not confirm SANGS RGYAS.

[Speaker 2]
Buddhas.

[Speaker 1]
Buddhas, okay. And because there's no Buddha, you wouldn't have to PEPA to do DGE BA'I LAS. You wouldn't have to try hard to do good karma.

Yeah. And then you wouldn't have to try hard to PO'A MI DGE BA'I LAS.

[Speaker 2]
Bad stuff. Yeah. Even bad stuff.

[Speaker 1]
It would be meaningless to train yourself in the lump. And then the other guy, we said, okay, is that what you think? And then he said, understood, teacher, why are you accusing me of denying past and future lives, denying the existence of enlightenment, denying the good days you need to get there, denying the bad days you have to avoid to get there, telling me the path, training yourself in the path is unnecessary.

Why did you say that? And then we said, okay, $100, DGE BA'I LAS, thank you. Accept word.

Accept word. What?

[Speaker 2]
Because there would be no fire from the smoke at the mountain pass.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good, $100 for the Ezra's college fund. His college fund is getting closer, so then you have to work a little harder. Okay.

He's ahead of the other kids. Okay. Except Kiri is not the same.

I don't know.

[Speaker 3]
Adam's daughter is going to beat them all, but you know.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Because you said, because you said there's no fire on a mountain pass where you see smoke. You said that.

And then what's he going to say? I didn't say that. And we said, yes, you did, because you said anything we perceive by thinking about it in our mindless pictures is not real.

Okay. All right. DE'I THENG GI DUA RGYUD MED PA'I THALO And then the DUA on top of the LA would have to be RGYUD MED PA'I.

[Speaker 2]
And no cars.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, there must be no cars for the smoke. You know, sometimes you drive around the city and you see a big smoke, and you know there's a big fire, but you can't see the fire. All right.

Who's next is Alyssa Shen. Do you want to try it? No.

Impossible, Catherine? Okay. All right.

Let's leave it. Hasso. Kelte.

Gibson's checking. Hasso's translating. Oh, Hasso's translating.

Gibson, you read it. Gibson check Gibson. This is called apperception in philosophy.

[Speaker 2]
He needs to be promoted. Oh, man. Oops.

Okay, Kelte. Okay. Okay, good.

[Speaker 1]
Now the guy says, okay, okay. I understand I was wrong. I shouldn't say that things that you picture in your mind don't have any reality.

I shouldn't say that. I understand that. So I have another idea.

Only nominally those mental pictures are objects of consideration, okay? Which should mean in your mind existing thing, okay? So only in words, only in words are those mental pictures real.

Only in words. They are not really real, but they have some reality, okay? They have reality in words.

Therefore, I don't deny the second kind of correct perception, accurate perception, okay? Then, therefore, because they have some reality, nominal reality, in words, okay? All the kins you gave to me, I don't have.

What's kin? Kin mendu.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
All the problems you brought up about me and my ideas, they're not correct. Why? I didn't say those pictures in your mind don't have any reality.

They have a little reality, okay? In word only, they have some reality, okay? So don't accuse me of saying they don't exist at all.

Therefore, all the problems you brought up about my position, which is that we'd have to say Buddhists don't exist, karma doesn't exist, that's not correct. They don't apply to me, because I kind of believe in the pictures, okay? They're just in words, they exist.

They don't exist really. You can't drink coffee out of the word coffee cup, but they have some existence as words. I agree, okay?

All right, here we go. I don't know why, but Christina Kafka was asking to take this sentence. Oh, who's checking you?

Gibson's not tired of checking yet. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Mawa. Mawa. Mawa.

[Speaker 1]
Sure.

[Speaker 2]
I'm just going to keep going.

[Speaker 1]
Mercy. Mercy. Yeah, nice.

Good job. Good job. Chitsen does mental pictures, okay?

Chitsen, the mental picture of a coffee cup as opposed to the one you're drinking out of. DON DANG PAR ZHES BYA YIN DON DANG PAR, they are an object of consideration. Mental pictures, abstractions, DON DANG PAR are an object under...

Yeah, ultimately speaking, they are. Okay. What did he say?

[Speaker 2]
Nomina.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, nomina in name only, in pictures only. They have reality as pictures. They have reality as words.

He would never say they have reality DON DANG PAR, ultimately speaking. Okay? So we say, okay, is there anybody around here?

Did you ever meet anybody who said that those mental pictures do have ultimate existence? And we say, yeah, I heard that. I've heard people say that.

Yeah. But RIG PA MAWA means logicians, okay? People who profess logic.

Logikers. Okay? Logikers.

RIG PA MAWA. Who follow JESUD DANG BAR. Okay?

The logic guys who follow who? RIG PA MAWA.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, who follow... Oh, the Lord of Logic.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Who's the Lord of Logic? I would say Dharmakirti.

I'll put my money on Dharmakirti. Okay? Yeah.

Now, if you ask those guys, the followers of Dharmakirti, what do you think about those guys who say that mental pictures have ultimate existence? And they would say...

[Speaker 3]
We don't buy it.

[Speaker 1]
We don't buy it. That's crazy. And how many would say that?

So young, okay? Not one. Not one of the followers, of the real followers of Dharmakirti, would agree that those mental pictures have a real ultimate existence.

Maybe they have some existence as pictures or words, you know? A picture of a coffee cup does exist. But to say it's ultimately a coffee cup?

There's no way you would find anybody who's a follower of Dharmakirti who would agree with you. Okay? Got it?

And I'm going to change the wording now. Okay, you ready? There's no way that you would ever find a follower of Dharmakirti who would want to qualify abstractions.

There's no way you could find a follower of Dharmakirti who would want to say real abstractions or kind of real abstractions. You would never find any follower of Dharmakirti who would want to make any characterization of abstractions.

[Speaker 2]
Okay? Not even Tanya had above?

[Speaker 1]
Right. Not even to say abstractions do have an existence nominally. Okay?

Why? Because they would never say they have an existence really. Okay?

He makes a jump of logic here. He makes a jump of logic here. The real followers of Dharmakirti don't want to make distinctions between different kinds of mental pictures.

They don't want to say sometimes they're real, sometimes they're kind of real. You won't find any of them who say that. Therefore, GYUL GYI THUM MA MANG YIN PA'I SDOD PA'I KHYER PAR, you're trying to make a difference of these mental pictures where they have real existence.

GYUL GYI THUM MA MANG YIN PA'I SDOD PA'I KHYER PAR, What difference is there between that and what's the difference between saying that mental pictures could be nominally existent and saying that mental pictures could be really existent? You tell me. I found this one.

She tried to tell me. What's her name?

[Speaker 2]
Siri.

[Speaker 1]
When I said you tell me, Siri started talking. She tried to answer the question. I'll say it again, okay?

[Speaker 2]
She's trying to make $100.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, Siri, hey, where'd you got competition? You know what's going to happen? The next year's Apple Watch is going to have word on it.

All right. Okay, Siri, you're going to retire. No, okay.

He says, I'll say it again, okay? We don't make distinctions between different kinds of mental pictures because they're so theoretical. We don't want to make distinctions.

Don't try. Nobody in the Dharmakirti camp would accept any kind of distinctions, so don't try. All right, here we go.

Tim, did you read yet? I don't know. Okay, he's going to read from across the table.

Seiji offered to check. Yay!

[Speaker 2]
Louder, louder. Did I do that right?

[Speaker 3]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Was it up or down? I went down.

[Speaker 1]
Good, nice, okay. Moreover, here's another problem with you saying that mental pictures could have some kind of nominal existence, okay? Oh, I'll give you another problem with saying that.

Let's take Chit-sen. What's Chit-sen?

[Speaker 2]
Mental pictures.

[Speaker 1]
Archetype, mental picture, okay. Excuse me, since it has a nominal existence, could it be perceived by a nominally correct perception? A nominal correct perception?

Yes or no? Since according to you, the object of that perception has a nominal reality, can it be confirmed by a nominal accurate perception? You would think.

Yeah, and he said, why do you say that? And we say, well, because you said it was an object under consideration that existed only nominally. How do you confirm that with a nominal perception, okay?

Then, if you agree that the Chit-sen, which has according to you a nominal reality, could be confirmed by a nominal accurate perception, well then, you just booba, you just blew up, you just blew up your own position that only rong-tsens could be objects of consideration. You started out this whole argument and you said only microphones on the table are real objects of consideration and microphones as ideas in your head are not perceivable by an accurate perception. Well, now you just said the pictures in your head can be perceived by an accurate perception because they have nominal existence and nominal existence is confirmed by nominal correct perception, accurate perception.

Therefore, Chit-sen's mental pictures must be confirmed by accurate perceptions. Therefore, deduction is an accurate perception. Okay?

You okay? Dr. Kramer, I mean, I just hate to say goodbye without you doing one last controversial statement here. Who's checking you is word, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the guy says, well, not necessarily the case, that just because I agreed to a nominally existing mental picture, that means there must be a nominally existing accurate perception which could confirm the existence of a mental picture. Okay? All right?

In other words, a second valid perception. Okay? Because he said only outside real things.

Then we say, well, that is the case because to establish that something exists only nominally can only be confirmed by a nominal accurate perception. And to establish that something exists ultimately can only be confirmed by an accurate perception, dun dam chupa means which is operating in the realm of the ultimate. And that's an important Madhyamika word later.

Okay? That's an important Madhyamika, which is via perception, which is operating in the realm of the ultimate, which is normally only tongwa, path of view. That's too loud.

That's too loud.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, what?

[Speaker 1]
Isn't that the word for examining and not operating? Yeah. Same thing here.

Okay. Checking. Checking.

Checking ultimate. Checking ultimate. Same thing though.

Operating in the. By the way, when I was frustrated with the study of logic, and I was at some point, I was bad at it, and I was angry. And I was getting taught this stuff by someone who had started English six weeks before, and he was already 60.

And I was frustrated, and I was kind of upset and angry. Yeah, like that. Yeah, just like that.

And one of the geshes living in the Mongolian temple, he called me into his room and he said, Listen, sema tongpe go.

[Speaker 2]
Is the door just for the outside, the way out?

[Speaker 1]
You want to see emptiness? Then you've got to study logic. You've got to study this subject, and you're not going to see emptiness if you don't.

And then later I saw it often mentioned in scripture that the door to seeing emptiness is studying these topics. Yeah. Like chi che dakpa, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, here we go. He just said the only way to confirm an object that exists in words only is with an accurate perception of words only, an accurate perception. And the only way to confirm an ultimate object is to use an ultimate accurate perception.

And then he said, I don't think so. Chi che, or tar ma dru. And we said there, going up and down.

Up. Up, because we believe it. It's the righteous offended data.

It is so. It is so. You heard it with your wife.

Okay. Okay. It is so because, who do we got here?

Joy Chen wants to read this. Oh, she's translating. Okay.

Dang.

[Speaker 2]
Tong Tong, you're here. I'm here. Oh, she's there.

Okay. Oh, Joy Chen.

[Speaker 1]
Is Tong Tong okay?

[Speaker 2]
No, Joy Chen is not translating.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, Joy Chen is reading, and Master Tong Tong. By the way, Tong Tong, the book I sent you translated has two questions in it for you about Master I Ching's position. There are three dollar signs, and I want you to give me an answer on those two questions, and then that sutra is finished.

Okay. Just two little tiny questions about Master I Ching.

[Speaker 2]
Tong Tong is translating, so she can't respond.

[Speaker 1]
Can she help?

[Speaker 2]
No. She can help you with that question, but she can't.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, okay. All right. Look, I'm going to make it easy.

Maitri. No, he's busy. Okay, Alison and Stanley.

Let's do it easy. Alison's reading. Stanley's checking.

DER TAL. Give me the first one. DER TAL.

[Speaker 3]
DER TAL.

[Speaker 1]
Great. Beautiful. I think this RE WEI ZE, for $30.

Sustenance of Hope. Yay, Nick, 30 bucks. Xiaoping knows we're ending in less than 10 minutes, so suddenly her reading has become perfect.

[Speaker 3]
Four minutes left, guys, four minutes.

[Speaker 1]
The closer we get, the better the pronunciation. Okay, DER TAL. TSE MA'I MIG PA TZAM GYIS YOD PA TZAM TU SBYOR PA Something is established as existing by...

You don't need anything more than to say it was perceived by a... Good. If you want to prove that something exists, you don't have to say anything more than it was perceived by an accurate person.

Somebody saw it who's not crazy, okay? THA GNOD DU YOD PA DER NAM CHOD PA'I TSE MA'I MIG PA DANG And it's not the case that if something exists nominally, it could be perceived by a perception operating in the ultimate. An Arya's direct perception of emptiness cannot perceive even French fries now.

And DER TAL DU YOD PA, the existence of something as ultimate, cannot be confirmed by a perception which is operating in the nominal, in words and pictures. They don't cross over. They don't confirm each other.

Okay, I don't like to waste time. I like to use every single minute. So Tim's going to read.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, then the guy says, Well, what about this?

[Speaker 1]
What about this? Couldn't you use a mistaken state of mind, okay? To confirm that something was existing only in names and words, okay?

LOD DU PA Couldn't you drink a lot of Tsingtao beer and get drunk? And then you can confirm the existence of elephants running around in the scriptorium, okay? And when Gyaltsay asks, Why is there a mess?

You could say it was just the elephants that we had in the scriptorium, okay? He says, I think you could confirm something with mistaken perception. You don't need an accurate perception.

And here we go. Seiji's going to read.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, okay, I like it, I like it.

[Speaker 1]
So anomaly speaking, sound never changes, right? You say, Why do you say that? Are you crazy?

No, it's confirmed by, also confirmed by a mistaken state of mind. Okay, next time you fight about the Japanese restaurant, you can use this. Okay.

That's dirty.

[Speaker 3]
The whole thing that got us in trouble to begin with was that we didn't want to accept that sound was unchanging.

[Speaker 1]
I know, it's a dirty trick, right? Kramer, since you want to talk, why don't you read this last line here? We're into the last 30 seconds.

[Speaker 3]
I don't know, Kramer, go!

[Speaker 1]
Okay, well, if you agree, then all the sounds in the world, they are changing, but only nominally, not really, okay? All sounds in the world are changing, are correct, but only nominally. Why?

Because all sounds in the universe are confirmed as changing by a mistaken state of mind that reaches that conclusion that they are changing nominally, just nominally, okay? If it's mistaken states of mind that establish things to exist nominally, then even when you see the correct thing, that sound is changing, but if you do it in the abstract, then it's by a mistaken state of mind.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, that's tough.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay, Carson, it's now your turn. You just keep contradicting yourself.

All right, all right. I hope Adam's better next time so we don't all have to suffer. Adam, we're praying for you, Adam, that you feel better.

Get well soon, Adam. If you need anything, just contact a Mixed Nut. Yeah.

Contact one of your sisters or one of your brothers. All right.

[Speaker 3]
Okay, go ahead.

[Speaker 1]
Don't forget, everybody have a nice rest. Don't forget to join the Mixed Nuts Reading Club every Thursday at 6 p.m. Arizona time. Sometimes even Geshe Michael comes, and we have a lot of fun discussing the ideas in these texts, so please scan this QR code.

You can donate each week. You can make monthly donations and come every time, whatever. Keep supporting the Mixed Nuts.

Keep coming to the translation programs. We love you all. We're really grateful for your participation.

Thank you, Nuts. And hey, Gen. He's playing with the kid.

Yep, he's gone. You take a break, okay? Thanks for all your hard work.

Get some rest.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you. Thank you, everyone.

[Speaker 1]
Thank you, everybody. Thanks for sticking it out. Bye, you guys.

Bye.

[Speaker 2]
See you later. Bye, Rebecca.