Классика Алмазного огранщика: Верхний Срединный путь — Великие книги мудрости, занятие 19

[Speaker 2]
SASHI BHUKHI DUKSHIN PRATHAKAM RIGRAM LIKSHIN NIMDEY GYENPADI SANGYE SHINDU MIKTEY ULWARGI DOKUN NAMDAK SHINGLA JUPAR SHOK GIDAM GURU RATNAMANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI SANGYE SHUDDHAM SOGGI CHOKNAM LA CHAMSHU PARDU DAKNI KHYAP SUKHI DAKI CHUN YEN GYIPE SUNAM KI DROLA PINCHIR SANGYE JUPAR SHOK SANGYE SHUDDHAM SOGGI CHOKNAM LA CHAMSHU PARDU DAKNI KHYAP SUKHI

[Speaker 1]
DAKI CHUN YEN GYIPE SUNAM KI

[Speaker 2]
DROLA PINCHIR SANGYE JUPAR SHOK SANGYE SHUDDHAM SOGGI CHOKNAM LA CHAMSHU PARDU DAKNI KHYAP SUKHI DAKI CHUN YEN GYIPE SUNAM KI DROLA PINCHIR SANGYE JUPAR SHOK

[Speaker 1]
Let's start here at Gyan. Gyan. Can we start with that?

We left off last time at that sentence. We did it. But just read it.

GYAN GYI DRAJU PADMIRIK TE TE. No aspiration. TE.

But you don't have to do what Mr. Andrade does with TE. It can be soft, but it has to be unaspirated. Okay.

GYAN GYI DRAJU PADMIRIK TE TE. Good. METHA GOGPE METHA GOGPE BEPA MINJE PARTENPE SO SHEDA Do you want to work with that, or do you want me to tell you what it is?

You refuse to make any effort to treat. No, we've got to go back to the root text. Right.

Please listen to me. Oh, by the way, I have something to say about this.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, about the root text?

[Speaker 1]
We were discussing the root text and thinking he had made a mistake, or that he had a different translation. Right. But we made an error.

And I realized it this morning, in the car, because of Utpala's blessing. OGNE CHE PAR GYUR BA'I JI THAR CHI PA'I NAM DAG SHIN Okay, it is accidentally sounds like meter, but it's not. It's part of the commentary.

Yeah, it's part of the commentary.

[Speaker 2]
That's how it is.

[Speaker 1]
So I cut it off, and now it makes sense. Okay? It's not part of the text.

It's not part of the root text. He's referencing a later verse. Wow.

Okay? Just one line. But the first line, the line he uses to introduce the one line, happens to be in exactly the same meter.

So I thought it was some kind of corruption in the text. And this morning I was like, duh. So what this part says, Please listen.

Nyan-par-gi. I'm going to... Present.

I'm going to... I'm going to defeat, dok. Yeah.

The idea that things could exist the way they seem, with certain kinds of logic. Also. I'm also going to refute the extreme that things could exist the way they seem to.

Okay? I'm also going to refute that. When he says also, what does it mean?

He's going to use scripture as well.

[Speaker 2]
In addition to refuting... Listen to him, he understands.

[Speaker 1]
What's the other scheme?

[Speaker 2]
Meta.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that if they don't exist the way they seem, then they don't exist at all. So I'm also going to refute the idea that things could exist the way they seem. Okay?

Yeah. Meaning, the implication is, he must have already refuted that things didn't exist at all. Then we ask him...

Then here's Gyatso Je's commentary to these lines. Right. Okay?

And he says... You refused to make any effort to treat meta. So why are you saying...

No, not yet. I just want to give you a review. He says, danpa means, Nagarjuna is advising us, okay, to listen up, because he's going to give an explanation of how to stop the idea that things exist the way they seem by using reasoning such as the one of dependence, with Sugeng's text.

Okay? And by so doing, we're also going to block the view that things could exist the way they seem. Okay?

Alright?

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Then the guy says, wait a minute. Gyan nidra. Why didn't you say also?

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? Why didn't you just say also? You just told us you're not going to work on refuting the idea that things don't exist at all.

Right. Because Buddha already did a lot. He got his own separate treatments.

Right. He talked about it with all his disciples. You just told us you're not going to come to that.

If you asked that. Okay, now we're ready for new stuff. Okay.

I agree, come on, I agree, let's get reasonable, it's like the way it is, with your hand, I agree that the idea that yoda, things could exist the way they appear to, dole doksin, that scripture contradicts it already, sutra disproves it, yeah sutra long ago already disproved that, the one I promised to talk about, okay I agree it's already been treated, deta nayam, yeah even though that's the case, larki gyalwa deta me che bo, but there's not the problems that I brought up before, I already talked to you about that, I already told you why we're not going to get going to meta, Buddha covered it a lot, Buddha devoted separate scriptures to it, you know, there's none of the problems that I listed before, with yoda, there's those problems with meta, Buddha treated it as a separate subject in its own book, Buddha treated it continually, Buddha and he treated it on many occasions, that's not the case with yoda, I already explained that to you, okay, so don't give me trouble about this kyan, about also, get off my back, okay, now, nipa, nipa hai tong, because ni means an animal trap, nipa means the second point in a conversation, guess which one is here, gopher traps, don't talk about gopher, nipa yatha ngokpe rikpa la, kapsu bapa tewa dang, sharjungo, okay, nipa yatha, so now he's freely switching between yatha and yata, yeah, technically they're not the same thing, yatha is the view that things exist the way they seem, yatha is the necessary implication of that view, they're not at all the same, the necessary implication of that view is that everything exists for a reason, yatha, different, okay, so you're going to have to translate it sensitively, I know you're sensitive, your wife told me that, nipa yatha gokpe rikpa, the logic that stops that, yeah, now let's talk about our reasons why things don't exist, why you shouldn't go to the extreme of thinking things exist, as they seem, okay, and I got two parts for you here, kapsu bapa tewa, kapsu bapa means relevant to the current context, okay, we have kappa again, kappa meaning context, kapsu bapa means falls at the context, it means relevant to this discussion, okay, I'm going to give you atelgir, relevant to this discussion, yeah, atelgir is a famous Buddhist kind of statement, where you're sarcastic, somebody says all fruits are red, you don't say no, no, no, you say oh yeah, okay, yeah, fine, so I'm going to go try to buy some red lemons, you see what I mean, and it's supposed to be the highest way to fight somebody, logically, it's a sarcastic statement, it's called consequence, a necessary consequence of your saying that all fruits are red is that lemons must also be red, that's atelgir, that's prasangika, and it's so famous that the highest Maninika school, which is the correct one, got that name, because they like to use it, okay. So last time we translated atelgir as sarcastic statement, do you want me to leave it?

I was thinking it would be nice to change it to consequence and then footnote it and explain what a consequence is. Again, I think the philosophy of our Sedona school of translation, the western tower of the eastern Shenzhen tower, I think we should try to make it readable by a waiter. Yeah, consequence is not, you think?

You go try it on a waiter. Is there any waiters in the room? Okay, to be honest, I'd go somewhere between.

I'd find something that's meaningful. Okay, but anyway, we're going to have to choose a word because it's coming up a lot now. Yeah.

Okay, so I'm going to give you atelgir, which relates to this subject of trying to block the idea that things could exist the way they do. Right. Okay, so he's being a true prasangika, yeah, his proof that things don't exist the way, his proof that the idea that things exist the way they seem, he's going to attack it with a sarcastic statement, or with a statement of consequence.

For some reason he's warning us. Okay, yeah, and then sharchun. Sharchun, shar, this low-tone shar.

In high-tone shar, you had ten times lower text here. Or up here, or east.

[Speaker 2]
As soon as you appear to the mind.

[Speaker 1]
Sorry, that's another one. But shar came up in a couple of texts. Sharchun, low-tone, means incidental points.

Incidental points. And it's a very common usage in colloquial Tibetan. Kira rimla doi shorla, they call it shor.

They don't say shar, they say rimla doi shorla. IGA let you draw that. Oh, Jigme, on the way to my house, can you pick me up something at IGA?

So shorla is very common in colloquial. On the way. So this means there's going to be some interesting more stuff I want to tell you.

It's not the main subject, but it's some stuff you might want to know. Sharchun.

[Speaker 2]
So it's like along with some...

[Speaker 1]
With some incidental information. Cool. Chun means happened along the way.

Okay. Here's the presentation of the telgir. Okay.

Damponi. Okay, you promised us new kinds of reasoning to disprove that things could exist the way they seem. You promised us some new reasons.

Let's hear them. Okay, here we go. Damponi, rekpe deyang gang she na.

Yeah, what are your new reasonings? Jita jipe nam tak shin. Ngopo gelte den gyur na.

This is not gel. No. It's not an English sound.

There's no English equivalent. It's not a G. It's ka.

Ngopo gelte den gyur na.

[Speaker 2]
Gelte.

[Speaker 1]
If you say gelte, it means you're contradictory. Kelte means if. This one means if.

Kelte. Ngopo gelte den gyur na. Kelte.

Ngopo gelte.

[Speaker 2]
Sorry.

[Speaker 1]
You can do your eyebrows. Kelte.

[Speaker 2]
It actually helps.

[Speaker 1]
It does. Deng na mepe nam tartu. Gang gi nindu gyur ji shik.

Yeah, very hard. I'm not going to spoil the party by explaining it to you. Oh, okay, fine.

Don't forget you have to bold out all these root texts below. Your text is a commentary. You've got to be weaving.

Jita. Oh, you want new reasons? Here we are.

Jita means you want new reasons? Here they are. Jita.

Jipala datar nangwa tida jita nangwa tarmi den te. Okay, it's hard. So divide and conquer.

Split it up. Make it tiny sentences. And everybody will be happier.

If it's too hard for you to translate quickly, your readers are not going to be able to get through it either. So cut it up. Appear to children.

Things that appear to two-year-olds. No, the way that all these things unspoken, un-clarified, the way that all this stuff appears to two-year-olds. People like two-year-olds?

Yeah, so tatar means nowadays. Right now. Right now.

Anything like that. It ain't true. They contradict.

They are contradictory. I would check the da actually. It might be detar.

Detar and jitar are brothers. Like that. Like that, like this.

So I want you to check it. Okay, I'll put it in. Thanks.

Anyway, the meaning is clear. Things don't exist. It's not true that things exist the way they appear to exist to all these two-year-olds.

What's a two-year-old? In Buddhism it means a person who didn't see a Buddha. It's not true that things things that appear to the things that appear to two-year-olds right now cannot be real.

So this is the midden. Cannot be real in the way they seem. It cannot be truth in the way they seem.

It cannot be the truth. And then he's going to give a reason. Are we on the next part?

Yeah, Kelte. Kelte. jitar jipe nampar takpa shingpo dida kelte Kelte.

tempar gyur na jipa didak If things were real in the way that these children believe them to be after checking nampar tak If you ask one of these non-emptiness-seers is the world real the way it seems and they check Let me check. Yeah, real. So after having checked Doc.

After having checked the way that the world seems after Achyuta has done some kind of checking into it if they were real if all this stuff was real, all these things around us meaning stuff around us not working things if all this stuff around us were real suppose their opinion is correct and that everything is real the way it seems to be ultimately true suppose it were correct

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's a tail gear.

[Speaker 1]
He's ready for the sarcastic punch. Here we go. Self and truth is contradictory?

In that case now he's going to now he's going to make a classic tail gear it has to have four parts a classic tail gear has to have four parts Ready? Blah blah blah Are you telling me it's blah blah blah? Second part Are you telling me it's blah blah blah?

The sarcastic part Third part Because you said Because you said And then we always give a Fourth part is Yeah, it's like blah blah We give a comparison It's like blah blah So here go the four parts Let's number them It's kind of cool You don't have to do it this way Well, I would split them because they're so long Normally I wouldn't split them this finely But I just want you to know this is the whole tail gear Okay, what is it? Two year olds Those two year olds Consider those two year olds Yeah, consider the two year olds in the world Then you say something sarcastic about it Are you telling me?

So, I don't know what you're talking about I'm talking about the tail gear This is the tail gear Really convoluted But beautiful It's not stupid Let's take it in pieces Okay, thank you First of all Let's look at some of the root text This namtar is pretty important I want to treat namtar first Namtar normally means biography. It doesn't mean it here. It means, he's going to tell you what it means down here.

Nambartharpa means here complete freedom. I made myself a note because I kept mistaking. I made myself a note.

Nambartharpa, then he glosses it, equals Yanganadeva. Equals nirvana. Achieving total nirvana.

Now, Toba, who has achieved dagni as a person. Those great souls? He didn't say dagnichimbo.

But he's almost giving that flavor. Is he one of those people? Oh, I see.

Now, who is he talking about?

[Speaker 2]
Those two-year-olds.

[Speaker 1]
I suppose they're... Oh yeah, those two-year-olds must have, they must be big people, okay? Who already achieved nirvana, freedom.

In which they no longer have to lemba. They no longer have to take on kumbho, the five heaps. Those things, ngopo.

Because in the root text it says ngopo.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, right. He's just glossing it.

[Speaker 1]
So ngome normally means...

[Speaker 2]
A non-working thing.

[Speaker 1]
A tarpa. It's normally a synonym for tarpa. Yeah, an unchanging thing.

Ngome, a non-functioning thing. It doesn't mean that at all here. It doesn't mean that at all here, okay?

It just means he doesn't have that stuff. He doesn't have that stuff. And here he glosses this stuff.

Means refers to the heaps. Yeah. They don't have that stuff anymore.

Because don't forget, in these schools we're dealing with, which are the lower two schools, Hinayana, they really attach the idea of far-men-yang-de. Yeah, nirvana with nothing left over. Yeah, you get to nirvana, everything disappears.

And you're in this restaurant and you never appear again. Yeah, should I footnote kumbho or is that too obvious at this point in the text? Well, no, you're going to translate it.

Oh, right. Okay, so...

[Speaker 2]
Do I need to name them or something?

[Speaker 1]
It's going to be in a positive. It's going to be in a positive. Yeah.

You know, I'm tempted sometimes to say body and mind. Okay? In some occasions it's okay.

And in that case I wouldn't even have to note it. That stuff, meaning those parts to a person. Right.

Dene mepa. Okay, we had dene today with somebody. At all.

We had it in your text. At all. What was the analysis of that?

Nothing at all. Yeah. Chi gyewa milim.

Chi means later. Chi. Okay, uh-huh.

Meaning, so what's it say? They don't have to... Are you telling me all the two-year-olds running around the world have already achieved nirvana, which is freedom, in the sense that I no longer have to take on that stuff, meaning body and mind that we're stuck with, at all, forever after?

Forever after. Is that what you just said? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, all right. Yeah. Then they're going to say, look.

They'll say, we never said that. Uh-huh. What are you talking about?

Okay. Nyen tu tepa kyur. You listener groups, meaning Hinayanas, okay, you listener group guys, you Hinayana guys, gyur tsen kang gi min du, give me one reason why you shouldn't say that.

Uh-huh. Why? Okay?

Gyur tsen kang gi min du. Give me one good reason why you don't accept that already. Yeah.

What? That everyone who never saw emptiness already reached nirvana.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Give me one good reason why you shouldn't agree. Yeah. Du re pa ta.

You should agree. Give me one good, yeah. According to what you said.

Uh-huh. Why? Somebody make a breakthrough.

A hundred bucks. Because all you need to do is understand. Now think first.

Are you telling me all these guys already reached nirvana? Because they don't see things as... Dan, you're expensive today.

That's what I was about to say. You stopped me.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, but he said it first.

[Speaker 1]
You told me to stop and think about it, but that's not what I was saying. Just for the record, I don't need the money. I'm just saying.

That's what I was about to say. I already had that.

[Speaker 2]
It's very hard to take a portion of a hundred dollars.

[Speaker 1]
If it's true that everything exists the way it seems, then what is there is reality. And if you see reality, you should become an artist. Okay?

If it's not fake, if it's the reality, if it's real reality, then everybody who has eyeballs is an arhat. Okay, got it? It's a teller.

He didn't say, Oh, I'll talk to you about dependent origination. You see? He didn't go that way.

He just said, Oh yeah, okay. Everything's the way it is. Everything's real.

So all these guys saw it to be real. Yeah, so they're all arhats, right? Okay, got it?

It's kind of cool. It's so much more cool than saying, Let me explain to you the twelve ways of dependent origination. Sorry, Mr. Guy.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. I have eyes.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, give me one good reason. Tell me one good reason why you shouldn't agree. You should agree.

Sorry. Yeah, you better believe it. Why?

He strung three things together with two becauses. Because blah, because blah, because blah. Okay?

Just like boom, boom, boom. Why? There's not a single reason why you can't agree?

Okay. Give me one good reason why you're not going to agree. Why?

Because there ain't one. Because there ain't a single one. It's not the smallest one.

[Speaker 2]
Why?

[Speaker 1]
Because you've seen the truth. Because they claim to have seen the truth. They did see the truth.

Oh, that's what I said. Because they've seen the truth.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, good. That's the first thing I said.

[Speaker 1]
I think I'm not pronouncing these correctly. That's why. Then duh.

[Speaker 2]
You say it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, you say they've seen the truth. According to you. Okay?

According to you. Give me one good reason why you should say they didn't achieve Nirvana. What are you talking about?

There ain't a single reason why you should say that. What are you talking about? Because they saw reality.

According to you.

[Speaker 2]
We're getting there.

[Speaker 1]
We're getting there. It's coming. Don't be too smart.

Okay. Try to be down to our level. Granddad?

For example, take a Jājāpanyāga layday. Nei. Chimikyawa Shinnō.

What's it say? It says, for example, for example, it's like the Nirvana of an arhat. Chimikyawa Shinnō.

It's like... Chi is later. Oh, oh.

They don't take birth later.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, right, right.

[Speaker 1]
They don't take birth later. They don't take birth later. Yeah.

And so they don't take birth later. For example, it would be like the great arhats of the Abhidharma, you know, Kātyāyana, Shariputra, Bhagavānāyana. You know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't forget their lower school. They often talk about famous big arhats.

And they would never have to take birth again. Okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, we, we unraveled the tengyur. Okay? We unraveled the tengyur, the guts of the tengyur for him.

DE LTAR THAWA LAS From this sarcastic statement, DE LTAR THAWA LAS Okay? From this sarcastic statement, DE LTAR THAWA LAS PHYID PAS THAR PA MA THOB PA'I PHYIR Since these children have not, in fact, attained freedom, and everybody knows it, Okay? Since, you can tell it in fact here.

Since in fact, we all know that those kids haven't achieved freedom, Okay? Then, DANG NANG BA DE DAG MI DE Their appearance is not true. Yeah, all the stuff that appears to us is not real.

Yeah. Okay? If it was real, they saw reality, they became arhats.

[Speaker 2]
What about a 10th level bodhisattva?

[Speaker 1]
I don't know what you're talking. We're in a lower school. We're not talking about bodhisattvas.

His text is Nagarjuna proving to lower schools with the lower schools. Okay. NAWA DE DAG MI DENG PAS Okay.

Since these, the way things appear, NAWA, all these things that appear to us are not true, Yeah. the belief in YOD TA cannot be true. YOD PA'I THAR is YOD TA?

Madhu.

[Speaker 2]
THAR MADHU.

[Speaker 1]
Cannot be established. Yeah. That means that the idea that things exist the way they seem cannot be proven.

That's what Artembi just did. Now if you want to have fun, now go back, now you, you, you glossed the root text for us. You're Nagarjuna.

You're going to enlighten us about the root text.

[Speaker 2]
Because all the pieces are in there.

[Speaker 1]
The part that we didn't translate, the notebook. It's all there. It's only, Oh, it's all there.

Okay, got it. Let me put it here. Do line by line.

Don't even try to be slick grammatical. Start with the shin. Yeah, it's like.

Yeah, in the way that Yeah, in the way that two-year-olds two-year-olds examine. Okay. In the way two-year-olds examine, take things.

In the way two-year-olds take things to be true. They take, they look at stuff and they see it as true. Celtic.

They see it as being in contradiction with the truth. If this stuff existed truly the way they see it. All this stuff existed the way they see it.

Okay. Then, they should have long ago achieved liberation in which they no longer have this stuff. What stuff?

[Speaker 2]
The heaps. The body and mind. Yeah, the dirty heaps.

[Speaker 1]
The immortal heaps. Okay. Then, Oh, Kanggi Mindo.

Give me one reason why not to say that. Give me one reason why it's not like that. Okay.

Gyu Ji Shi. Give me one good reason why we shouldn't say that. Okay.

Okay, got it? That was two car rides. Okay.

Okay, next line. It gets harder. Min De Pa.

Shang Tak, I think. Shang Tak, I missed it. Oh, Shang Tak Sakpa Shang Tak Sakpa Didak Kun Tso Chepe Rangyu Du Zekhyang Hel Dak Gan Rang Drak Ki Ten Tse So It's Town Dog.

Ah, Town Dog. Oh, it should be Dog? Yeah.

There's no such word as Dog. Uh-huh. I think it best means to lick with your tongue.

Dak? Um, Shang Tak, I've heard that one. Yeah, you have heard that, and look, I'm going to prove it to you.

It's earlier in this text. Sorry. Footnote.

Ah, Shang? Yeah, okay. Shang Tak Sakpa.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
And it's tricky because those three syllables shouldn't go together, right? It should be Shang Tak Sakpa.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
According to normal Tibetan.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
So it's a weird one. It took me a long time to figure it out. Shang Tak Sakpa.

Uh-huh. His monk's name is Yeshe Jungme. Shang is an area like Arizona.

Shang Sakpa is something like a guy from the Arizona plains. His monk's name is Yeshe Jungme. And the Blue Anus is where you go for these guys between India and Tsongkhapa.

Okay, I'm just telling you for the future. If you're looking for somebody between India and Tsongkhapa, go to the Blue Anus. Yeah, it's here.

[Speaker 2]
It's over here.

[Speaker 1]
It's like this thick. Yeah. It was translated by a Russian man, Yuri Ureyev.

Yuri Ureyev. His father Uh-huh. Nikolai Ureyev.

Very famous. Yeah. Painter.

But his son was a great scholar. And he was the first person to try to translate that. Really?

Did you ever read that? Really. Huh?

Did you ever read it? You know, it was the first thing we did OCR on.

[Speaker 2]
I remember that.

[Speaker 1]
And we did it 30 years ago.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
And about a third of the words came out. And I used it still. Did you subsequently...

No, I never did it. Somebody should do it.

[Speaker 2]
We have it as a PDF.

[Speaker 1]
We have it as a... I think we input it.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, probably.

[Speaker 1]
In Tibetan we probably have it, and we have it as a PDF in English. It's not a bad translation. It's pretty good.

It's in English. It's Russian-Indian. He lived in India his whole life.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
His father dropped him off. Okay. So anyway, Shantang Sapa.

Shantang Sapa. Oh, by the way, his teacher was Patsap. Oh, yeah.

He was also famous in this... Commentary. He has four great disciples of this commentary.

They wrote commentaries on this book, on Nagarjuna. Okay. I mean, this is messy.

Let me just do it. Shantang Sapa, this kind of... What do you call that?

Like original guy... Commentator? No, it's just a kind of really early Tibetan guy who was a nerd and attacked all this stuff.

[Speaker 2]
And he did a...

[Speaker 1]
He did not a bad job.

[Speaker 2]
He's looking to translate what we're doing.

[Speaker 1]
To an odd person who sits in the library all day. Nobody even wants the Tibetan word. Well, I'm just thinking about him.

Podcast? Anyway, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
He did pretty good.

[Speaker 1]
He's early, early. The Tibetans before Tsongkhapa didn't get emptiness correct. But he did.

He tried. They didn't have a lineage. Okay, either.

Shantang Sapa did not. Who's up, Chip? Completely covered?

I mean... Can you run me a vote? Maybe.

[Speaker 2]
We'll see if Gopro will let me.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, you got a bad gopher.

[Speaker 2]
You got to help him. You got to write the TED for people who don't have two computers. I know, but it's very powerful if Geshe-la asks him.

But Geshe-la has two computers, so he's less motivated.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. I want you to look up Kunzang Cho with SPY and Kunzang Cho with DPY.

[Speaker 2]
In the... Are we doing a frequency test?

[Speaker 1]
They are synonyms. Sounds the same. But they don't mean at all the same thing.

And they're spelled similarly so people confuse them. Hmm.

[Speaker 2]
Sungbong?

[Speaker 1]
Hmm? Sungbong is that? Sungbong.

It won't be in the thing there. Anyway, let's stop writing. Okay.

Kunzang, you know Kunzang Demba. Yeah, it's a deceptive reality. You can call it deceptive reality or apparent reality.

Reality which lies to you. Hey, Stacey, Geshe-la is coming from his own side. Okay.

I'm... I'm... deceptive reality.

I'm lying to him all the time. How many with DP? Give me five.

Don't tell him that. Wait. Don't disappoint me.

[Speaker 2]
You probably misspelled it. Yeah, I got one too. I got five.

You probably missed text. You still won. What?

[Speaker 1]
No, this makes more sense. Um...

[Speaker 2]
We're seeing different databases that's all.

[Speaker 1]
Kunzang Jubei Rupa means uh... logic in the realm of normal world and it's not logic used to prove emptiness. It's a code word.

It means logic for the normal world. And what that means is Dundam Chipa Mayin. It's not examining the ultimate nature of things.

Like if you're proving fire has smoke and stuff like that those are Kunzang Chipa. They're examinations in the realm of normal things. So...

uh... Didak Kunzang Pei Ranggyu Dutekhyang and he says they are Ranggyupa. Yeah, they're the independent Svatantrika.

And this is this is a lucky thing because it's going to trigger a whole beautiful thing in his text. Ranggyupa happens to be the name of the lower middle school. And we're going to see why they're called that.

But it's a form of logic. Okay? Svatantrika is a form of logic.

So Tang Sapa claims this Telnyur Prasangika is a Ranggyu. Okay. He says that...

Yeah. He says don't forget Gyaltsar Jay before he met Tsongkhapa was the most famous logician in Tibet. He wants to bring everything to logic.

Right. So he's using three weird logic terms here. Okay?

One is this is reasoning dealing with the normal world. This is reasoning dealing with the normal world. Not only that, it's a Ranggyupa.

What's a Ranggyupa? What's a Svatantrika? As a...

As a logical tool. I'm going to show you. Okay.

So let's leave it now. He says it's a Svatantrika. Meaning a certain kind of logic.

But Gyaltsar I would say Okay. You've got to insert I would say here. Is this still the same?

Yeah. We're still in the same sentence. I would call it either a Telnyur or a Ranggyupa.

These are two other logic terms. Unusual. Misspell them it becomes impossible.

This is by the way, this is a correction. Telnyur. Okay.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

If things exist the way they seem then all the people in the world who never heard of the pen should already be Arhats. Why? Because everything they see is true.

Okay? Now what's the opposite of that?

[Speaker 2]
Nothing is at all.

[Speaker 1]
No, I mean I'm saying something sarcastic. What's the truth?

[Speaker 2]
The truth is that what they see isn't true. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
They're not Arhats.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
They're not Arhats. So dog means the pancake pancake flip of the Telnyur second section. Okay.

Telnyur Telnyur dog is the pancake flip of the second section of the Telnyur.

[Speaker 2]
Sarcastic. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
All these all these infants have reached Arhat. Right. What's the flip of that?

Oh, there's a potato on the top.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
That's Telnyur. Okay. So it's just a non-sarcastic kind of thing.

yeah. No. It's the reality.

Gatsabje is saying this is a Telnyur to be flipped. This is not Arhangir. This is a Telnyur to be flipped.

Okay. Meaning if you flip it you get a true statement. They haven't seen it.

Right. Dog. Dog.

Okay. He's got a thousand dogs. His dogs are running around all over.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. So flip the Telnyur. Flip the Telnyur.

I say oranges are blue.

[Speaker 1]
Or or or second possibility it's Arhang Gatsabje Telnyur. It's a it's a statement of common knowledge or something like that?

[Speaker 2]
No. This is true.

[Speaker 1]
This is a rare kind of logic. And it came up from the dusty closet. Generally are you allowed okay there's a list of reasons why logic is wrong.

There's a list of reasons why a logical statement might be wrong. Like the relationships? If the three relationships don't hold.

[Speaker 2]
Obviously.

[Speaker 1]
But there's a very interesting one. There's a very interesting one in Buddhism. Ready?

Logic is mistaken if you if you say it to someone who already understood that. Right. It's not just irrelevant or unnecessary.

It's actually illogical. Okay. Seiji Mexico is a country to the south of the United States.

Because it's a country that comes next to the United States and it's not on the other two directions.

[Speaker 2]
You know?

[Speaker 1]
And he's like Now now that in Western logic that would be a true statement. In Buddhist logic it's false. It's false.

Because he already knew that. You see? When you give a true logic to a person who already understands it as if they didn't understand it that logic is illogical.

Okay, cool? And it's in the list of reasons you're not supposed to give.

[Speaker 2]
Is it false It's false.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. Well, no.

[Speaker 2]
It's still true. But it's illogical.

[Speaker 1]
It's not good logic.

[Speaker 2]
But it's not false.

[Speaker 1]
Now then there comes up another subject. There comes up another subject. What about Sambhalechuwe Shev from Stanley's text, please.

Sambhalechuwe Shev The ten things that always come along. Te Sam Gom Oh! What's that come from?

[Speaker 2]
Shev. Wisdom.

[Speaker 1]
Wisdom which comes from sitting in the car and thinking about what Geshe-la said in the class which nobody does, but I mean it's possible if you're right. Okay? But basically you're driving home and you're thinking what is he talking about?

And that's called Sambhalechuwe Shev. Okay? In a sense in Buddhism that's accepted as debating with yourself.

You're allowed to debate with yourself. Come on, Geshe-la. You shouldn't really drink six cups of coffee in front of the students.

Okay? It's like you're supposed to be calm. You're supposed to be a good example.

And you shouldn't not do your book and not do your yoga and not do your meditation on the same day in front of the students. Okay? You got it?

Because it's not a good example. You know? When you're giving talking to yourself reason that's called Arangdrakitendse.

Logic for the benefit of yourself. And it's a beautiful concept. Logic for the benefit of yourself.

So Gyaltsabje says Thangsapa thinks this is Arangyu sorry, Asvatantrika which has nothing to do with tantra. It's just the name of a logic. But I think it's one of these other two.

We haven't yet talked about what is Arangyu.

[Speaker 2]
No, I'm going into that. What's the drop in this? Proclaim the truth.

[Speaker 1]
Proclaim to yourself. Oh, okay. Something you say to yourself in the car.

So who said this in the car?

[Speaker 2]
You did.

[Speaker 1]
No, do things do the things around me right now. This traffic jam in Sedona. Go to Uptown Sedona.

It's a 15 minute drive. Take an hour. And you say, you know Saturday.

Is this all the way it seems to be? Is this not coming from me? And then you say well, if it wasn't coming from you your opinion of it would be correct.

And then you'd be seeing the truth. And you'd already be an arhat, I guess you might call. But you're not.

So it could be that this whole tailgater is spoken to yourself. Just to calm your mind down about the traffic. Right.

You know. Oh, does it really have no cause? This is like having Veronica sit next to you.

She's so innocent. She's like, oh, I guess there's no cause. She's not even trying to be sarcastic.

She's just saying, I guess there's nothing causing it, you know, this traffic. And I'm, you know, you're upset and there's traffic and I don't know where it came from. You know, I'm going...

So that's a... Then when that starts your thought process to yourself, it's a very beautiful thing in Buddhist logic called varmadakita. Self-directed logic.

It's either that, or it's just a sarcastic statement where if you flipped it, it would be correct. Okay, got it?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
That's whose opinion. Gyatso gyatso.

[Speaker 2]
Nagarjuna.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this other guy, Tangtapa, thinks it's a... Arangupa.

Now we have to discuss next, here, look. We have to... the idea of a rangyukyate.

So I went and got you some references. Cool. There's three nice references.

[Speaker 2]
Is that the deeper kind of logic?

[Speaker 1]
It's the lower middle way kind of logic. It's lower middle way logic. They were named after this kind of love.

It's not that it started with them. It's that they have an idea about its efficacy. It can get you enlightened from its own power or something.

Something like that. Can you drop me that version? Yeah, and you can struggle with these quotations I found about the meaning of Aramgyukti Tensei.

Cool. And I think it's about a page of translation. And to me, it kind of answered my questions about why Gyaltsabje was having trouble with that.

Okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool.

That's Sashi. Sashi. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you. It's getting interesting.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, can you airdrop me that? Oh, and by the way, the lower middle way is named after that kind of logic, right?

So, in a complete non-sequitur, jumping irrational to another subject, Gyaltsabje says, hey, let's discuss the difference between the two Madhyamaka.

[Speaker 2]
Right, right.

[Speaker 1]
You know, he's not supposed to be talking about that at all. And it's a beautiful subject. It's a very famous subject in Gombo Namstha.

We might go to Gombo Namstha. It's very, very famous. It makes for a nice teaching if you're giving a lecture or something.

There's either eight or ten differences. Cool. Thank you.

I don't know how deeply he goes into it, but we can do a detour. We can prepare an essay. It's not very long.

They're not extensive, but there might be more than he has here.