Классика Алмазного огранщика: Верхний Срединный путь — Великие книги мудрости, занятие 16

[Speaker 1]
Well, I'm going to start here. Okay. You want to read?

By the way, this is two daisies in a row. The way in which something undesirable is eliminated, okay? An undesirable quality is eliminated has been described by Master Baba Viveka and others, okay?

As using a mistake to remove a mistake.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Using a mistake to remove a mistake. And they use a pe. They use a metaphor.

They establish this principle of using a mistake to fix a mistake. They establish this principle through the use of a metaphor. So, and that applies to satsvargyalakamsa.

While you are... People still on the satsvargyalakamsa. Yeah, meaning while you're not in the direct position.

So far this discussion has centered on... The direct position. The direct position emptiness and the possibility that you have no state of mind at that time.

Okay. So, if you did have a state of mind and if it were mistaken, would it be useless? No, apparently not.

Okay, that's the point. Don't even... Don't just not say that there's an ultimate state of mind.

If there were a mistaken state of mind, it might still be useful.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? Something like that. And then I went and got this for you.

I got you the quotation by Baba Viveka and I found it in a book by Joseph Carvel. Because he explained it. He glossed it.

Okay, so here we go. Read the... The text called Essence of the Middle Way says...

Yeah, which is written by... Master Baba Viveka. Okay, good.

Jeetar... Oh, sorry. Should I read it?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Jeetar ga shik chakpa yee. Chakpa yee. Yee.

Lengthen this. Give your listeners a sign that it was a stuff. Yee.

And they kind of go, yee. And when they're reading it out loud in Tibet, jeetar ga shik chakpa yee.

[Speaker 2]
Yee.

[Speaker 1]
They just want the listener, the student, to know it's instrumental. Chakpa la nee chul she. Now, see, you're making this the same as this.

This is chul.

[Speaker 2]
Aspirated. Chul.

[Speaker 1]
And it's not the same, definitely not the same as this. D-r-u-l. Like, drooling.

Chul.

[Speaker 2]
And here you have them together.

[Speaker 1]
So if you have a student who has a problem with this, you can use this line. Tri shing dok par shepa nee, nyenpo chok kyi shepar gyur. Somebody check the tengyur, okay?

It might be nyenpo. I checked. In the tengyur?

I couldn't find poi. This is what I found. Oh, that's fine.

I should have done it this way. I didn't check the tengyur, I checked something. This is cool.

Jeetar, in the same way... So that alerts you that it's a metaphor. In the same way that blah blah blah.

Ga shik means some people. You know, some guy, takpa, is scared by something, because of their fear. And they think that a takpa...

A rope. They mistake a takpa, chul, for a drool. They mistake a rope for a snake.

Yeah, okay, good. And they call it a snake. You see what I mean?

Yeah, there's a snake. They look at a rope, a coiled rope, and they say, oh look, there's a snake. Then, tishin...

Yeah, that's the coiled root of a tree. I looked it up yesterday. I don't just know that word.

It's this specific tree, where the roots on a dark night might look like a snake. A lot of snakes. It's a willow tree.

He says it's a willow tree. Tishin do par. So this is the form of the verb betox that she had.

A quiet label. Yeah, meaning a false label. Then you say, you say to the guy, don't be scared.

It's not a snake. Yeah, you don't say it's a rope. Are you correct?

That it's a tree root? I guess not because it's a rope. No, it's a rope.

Okay, you got it? Don't be scared. It's just a tree root.

But actually it's a rope. It doesn't help the guy. Okay, got it?

The idea is when you explain the pen to somebody, sometimes they think... Yeah, they think the words are coming from the wrong side. They think Tishin Michael's coming from the wrong side.

They even think the pen is coming from the wrong side. Tishin Michael's explaining why the pen isn't coming from the wrong side. Okay, so they are making an error, but it's still fixing their bigger error.

The small mistake is fixing their big mistake. Okay, got it? It's a cool concept.

So don't tell me there's no mind involved with understanding emptiness. Come on. You can even use a mistake in state of mind understanding emptiness.

Don't tell me there's no state of mind at all. Which is what he's been saying all this time. All right.

Nyenmyo choky shepa jang. An error... A mistake becomes the remedy.

Yeah. An error fixes the... The understanding, right?

The understanding in his mind that comes up when you call it a...

[Speaker 2]
Tree root.

[Speaker 1]
When you say, oh, that's just a tree root. Nyenmyo choky, it acts as an antidote, and then they understand. They understand that they shouldn't be scared.

Their understanding your description, which is wrong, still acts as an antidote, and then they understand that it's not a snake. Okay. She tapa kilwa.

She tapa kilwa. The coil of rope? Yeah.

Kilwa means coil. And it can refer to the churning of the ocean at the beginning of time by Indra. Kilwa.

It's also kilwa. A whirlpool? The Sanskrit word is mandala.

So the original meaning of mandala was a coil shape. And it's used in pottery. When you use...

What do you call it? Coiling? It's a kind of pottery.

I think it's called coil. You use lengths of clay and you build it into... That's called mandala.

And it's a kind of clay oven that was made in ancient India by Mandala. They made the oven in a circle. They still use it in making japadis in India.

Do you mean the word kilwa?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, kilwa.

[Speaker 1]
So it became mandala. Mandala means coil. And a certain kind of earring was called kilwa, mandala.

So those are all the... What do you call it? It's connotations of mandala.

Then it became the word for whirlpool. And then mundane comes from that.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Shaitaka kilwana... Tapad kilwana drul tu tong ne. They see the...

By having seen the snake? No, they see the coiled rope drul du. As a snake?

Yeah, as a snake. And then, ne, because of that, tapad, misspelled. Fear is born in them.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, they start... Fear arises.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and you know, in normal English we just say they start to feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because all these words in Tibetan and Sanskrit for the arising of a thought or arising of emotion, in English we just say you feel.

You feel love or you feel concern for all beings. Sem ke. You don't generate that.

It's foreign within you.

[Speaker 2]
How do you feel about your sister?

[Speaker 1]
I generated some concern for her. No, come on. And no, read any translation and it's full of this stuff.

And people don't buy it. Right. And they go out and print.

And nobody learns anything. That's all. Takpa.

Ge be tse. Di shing gi chukma. So I wrote it Willow Root Shoot.

Willow Root Shoot. Uh-huh, uh-huh. That's Das, I think.

I never saw this one. Uh-huh. So I looked it up.

Chukma. Tama. Uh-huh.

It's the end of the root. You know, the finer part of the root. Okay.

That's the thicker part of the root.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Tama. Kilwa. Uh, it's coiled.

Yeah, that's just Duk means that's just the coiled Uh-huh. Willow Root. Uh-huh.

Shoot. Shayna. If you say it that way to them.

Okay. Jay. End of quotation.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
If you say it, if you explain it to them that way. Ne tsu mu min yang. Uh, ne tsu mu min yang.

They're not going to stay in the fear. I'm thinking. Idiom for Adam.

Ne tsu.

[Speaker 2]
Ne tsu.

[Speaker 1]
Ne tsu means the real way it is. Oh, cool. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Idiom.

[Speaker 1]
It's an idiom. Ne tsu. The way it really is.

Ne tsu min du means that they she thinks that but that's not the way it really is.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Ne tsu min du. It's common colloquial.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
The way it lays, literally.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
But that's not the way it really is. Ne tsu min du. Look, that's not the real way it is.

Okay. But. But.

Yeah. Ne kap gi. Ne kap gi.

Means in the short term.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So you can say ne kap. Uh-huh. Ne kap means you know in the immediate for the immediate present.

In the immediate present? For the time. For the time.

Uh-huh. Yeah. In the immediate in the here and now.

Uh-huh.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Uh, ne kap gi. Kapha. Fear.

Self. Gets rid of it. Clears the way.

Yeah, and how would you say the adjective for clear?

[Speaker 2]
Cleared.

[Speaker 1]
Oh. Spell it.

[Speaker 2]
C-L-E-A-R.

[Speaker 1]
Spell the adjective like clear light. C-L-E-A-R. Clear.

No, in Tibetan. Oh, oh.

[Speaker 2]
Oh. Oh, G-S-A-L. Oh, G-S-A-L.

This is the one downfall of Indian and Roman.

[Speaker 1]
When there's a denbu. When there's an E, it's a verb to clear away. When there's no E and it's an A, it's an adjective.

Clear light. Uh-huh. Okay.

Sorry. Which one's the adjective?

[Speaker 2]
Gyal sa la sel? Yes.

[Speaker 1]
No, any E verb. Any E. Denbu.

Denbu. Makes it the verb. Oh, okay.

Cool. Okay. Uh-huh.

Okay. Makes it the verb. That's a cool rule.

When it's an A, it's an adjective. Normally. In general.

Easy A and adjective. Yeah. Gyal sa la sel.

Gyal sa la sel. It's clear as an adjective. Wow.

And when it's S-D-L, it means the verb to clear away. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Tupa. Able to.

It can. Yeah. It can remove their fear for, you know, for now.

Probably short term, yeah. Yeah. In the short term.

[Speaker 2]
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 1]
I did not realize it's a verb. Shint. Shint.

It's like that. Yeah, he finished. He's alerting you that he has finished his metaphor.

[Speaker 2]
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, it's like that. Uh... Not like that.

Not like that.

[Speaker 2]
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Uh... Now, the next sentence I had trouble with and suddenly I had a breakthrough last night at the kitchen table do the pecan pie.

[Speaker 2]
We better go get some.

[Speaker 1]
He was baking pecan pie. She gave me a bite and I was like, oh, that's it.

[Speaker 2]
I gotta try that.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He busted. Geshe-la's busted.

So, pang-nyen, I read it as pang-cha pang-nyen-po. Things to give up and remedies?

[Speaker 2]
Antidotes.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, problems and antidotes. Pang-cha, what do you want to eliminate? And nyen-po.

Then I had trouble with dun-la-drup and it finally hit me. This means ra-mu-ne-drup, den-ba-drup. We are denying it could exist in reality?

Yeah, yeah, cannot exist. Well, you just ruined it.

[Speaker 2]
Not bad.

[Speaker 1]
Dun-la-drup for Gyatsobje here means exist in reality, exist in truth. It's like den-ba-drup. If he had said den-ba-drup, it would have been immediate that we would understand what he's talking about.

But dun-la-drup is an ancient, an archaic way to say it doesn't exist as a thing in reality. In real meaning, as a real object. Wait, so dun is real object here?

Well, that's a question. I would say real-ly. Dun is a confusing word.

Yeah, dun has so many meanings.

[Speaker 2]
It's drupal, dun-ly.

[Speaker 1]
Anyway, here it means that in reality it doesn't exist. It's similar to the din-ki we had.

[Speaker 2]
Din-ki. Established by Gyatsobje.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, in reality what it means is, you know, the wording is this, but din-ki, what they're really saying is... So it can mean real.

[Speaker 2]
It's like a sentence, like it has a definition of its own, it has a meaning of its own.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Okay, so go-pa is how we feel about dun-la-drup. We're denying it.

We deny that problems and their fixes, either one could exist in reality. Meaning self-existently. Yeah, you could say that.

And it's a reference back to the metaphor. Right, and in that case it's not about self-existently, it just doesn't exist. The perception of the snake doesn't exist self-existently.

Telling them it's a root doesn't exist self-existently. Finally realizing it was a rope doesn't exist self-existently. The whole process of eliminating wrong idea about the pen, even the parts of that don't exist from their own side.

The explanation that the pen doesn't exist from its own side also doesn't exist from its own side. That's what he's saying. We're denying that.

Go-pa yin-ki. But, yin-ki... Now don't forget, it's the disjunctive because the last thing...

Because it comes after the verb. I kind of split it. What was the last thing we said here?

That we decided. So-so-ke-wo kab-su-dang. While you're still a so-so-ke-wo.

Before you see emptiness directly, we're denying that things can exist. But, if you want to get rid of them, stop it. The seeds.

Okay, so for so-so-ke-wo, for people at a DCI talk, you can use language that they are misunderstanding to prove something that they're misunderstanding. Okay? But, if you really want them to stop seeing things coming from the wrong way, you have to get rid of the seed.

By teaching selflessness directly? No, the only way, the only way to get rid of the seed is to tong. You've got to see it.

You've got to see, and not even, not deductively.

[Speaker 2]
See it directly. Not with je-bak.

[Speaker 1]
Not with deduction. Directly, they have to see that there is no such thing. That there is no self-nature.

I like to say, you have to see that the thing is not itself. Directly, sometimes I like to say that.

[Speaker 2]
And he's thinking dharma is synonymous with tong. Probably.

[Speaker 1]
Has been stated in jukta. The commentary to Umala Jukta, probably Ocean of Reasoning. Just a guess.

You'd have to go see, but I didn't even bother to look, because all of them say it. It could be Gomorrah itself. It could be Gomorrah itself.

It could be the auto-commentary. Which is pretty simp. Which is quoted a lot.

So I could try to find it. Or don't bother, because it says it everywhere. I can't imagine a text that wouldn't say it.

[Speaker 2]
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
But you could search for savan near Muntan Dutong. And I bet you'll hit something.

[Speaker 2]
Probably all of those texts say that.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. You know, my opinion on footnotes is, if it's something like this, my only responsibility is to go find one. Okay.

I'm not going to say there's six commentaries that say that. Because it's too much. It doesn't help the reader.

It's overkill. Yeah. I would go find one.

Oh, it even says Jukjal Soap. Yeah, and in other books. Now, this is unbelievable.

[Speaker 2]
It's tempting, Geshe-la, it'd be tempting in that case to take Jukjal as, could Jal be plural?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the commentaries to... I doubt it. No.

[Speaker 2]
Books such as... He means one of those and we don't know which.

[Speaker 1]
No, that commentary to Manjimakavatara and such. And other such books.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, otherwise it would say Jukjal Soap. Right. Now he goes off on something that, you know, we have to sit with.

I'm not totally, you know... Sorry, Geshe-la, can I just... Oh, okay, that's just finishing that.

It's stated in all those books. All those books. Commentary to the Manjimakavatara, etc.

Uh-huh. And all of them. Don't tell me it's not stated.

[Speaker 2]
So when he goes to find one quotation, even though there's not a she here, he's got to pick...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, he's got to pick something that could be... Paraphrase this thing.

[Speaker 2]
So maybe he could... I mean, the two most likely are Tsongkhapa and Chandrakirti himself, right?

[Speaker 1]
Exactly.

[Speaker 2]
That would be more comfortable. And only two to cover his stuff?

[Speaker 1]
And since Tsongkhapa's commentary is a commentary on... Chandrakirti. Chandrakirti, it doesn't really matter.

If you hit it in Tsongkhapa, it comes from Chandrakirti most likely. Right, and he's probably quoting him directly. And by the way, huge chunks of Gomu-lam-tsal are directly quoted from the auto-commentary of the Manjimakavatara.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
All right. Read. From Dempa?

[Speaker 2]
Where were we? I put you at the top. Oh, okay.

[Speaker 1]
I tried to put you at the top. Okay. Okay.

Yeah, okay, wow. Okay. Mekpa.

Mekpa. Dema Ngoma Thongpa. The direct perception of truth.

Truth or emptiness. It's said to last only a moment.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, cool. Just cool.

[Speaker 1]
It's said to last only a moment. Okay. Mind, t-t-t-time?

This is, by the way, this is misspelled. Somehow. It's they say or something like that?

Well, it could be B-Z-H-E-D or it could be B-S-H-E-D. So, you have to check. And it makes a difference.

I didn't notice it the first time. There is a word she, which means for a flower to open. So, it's not relevant.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Jamyang Shepa. His name means opening flower. A very unusual name.

So, anyway. Let's write that down. I would say B-Z-H-E-D.

I'm betting on B-Z-H-E-D. The opening flower one? No.

[Speaker 2]
Except the position.

[Speaker 1]
Take the position. As opposed to explained. Okay.

It's more likely that they left the dengbo off. Okay. Summary term.

Tanye pe drula bapne. Bap means make an estimation with the mind. Right, right, right.

Measure. Like, bap means take the measure. It implies not precisely.

Okay. Tanye pe lo means... The conventional mind or something?

Yeah, you can say conventionalist mind. Meaning, not in the direct position. Right.

Tula. So, it's just an estimate. Or it's just a...

It's almost like a metaphor. We accept it. We accept that statement as being like a metaphor, which is based on some kind of comparison to the passage of time in a normal state of mind.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, wow.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Because an Arya has no perception of the passage of time, because the passage of time is not... It's not the direct perception of emptiness.

[Speaker 2]
It's not ultimate reality. That said, compared to countless lifetimes, it's just a moment.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. So, when texts talk about the direct perception of emptiness lasting only an instant, they're just saying compared to the billions of years your mind... It doesn't mean...

It's not literal. Ngeje min nangwe. So, it's not as though it's a definite measure.

Right. Ngeje means fixed to 60 milliseconds. Right.

Min nangwe. It's not going to... It doesn't mean that.

Okay. Min nangwe.

[Speaker 2]
It's actually very unclear.

[Speaker 1]
Therefore, these are shindumiso iti. These are just generalisms that are not very clear. Uh-huh.

Don't waste your time trying to figure them out.

[Speaker 2]
Is that what you wrote in paper? And yet here we are.

[Speaker 1]
He's telling the other guy, you know, don't bust your brains over these statements. They're just poetic, really. Right.

You know, oh, look, the perception of emptiness is only a second compared to the billions of years you've been alive. Oh, it must be one second. It doesn't mean it's one second.

He probably wants to say, since it lasts only a second, you don't have a state of mind. There's not time for a state of mind. You see?

Like, don't go there.

[Speaker 2]
Don't get weird.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, don't get weird on me, man. Ni rik, it's improper, tu pey pa che, to make great efforts, trying to figure out the meaning, cikten, of the words, which are already totally unclear.

[Speaker 2]
Unclear, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
They're obscure. Uh-huh. So don't bust your brains on it.

Don't go telling me there's no state of mind in the right position. Emptiness can last only a second. There's no time for a state of mind.

Don't go there.

[Speaker 2]
Right. Don't get weird.

[Speaker 1]
Anyway. I like Dorna because it's usually easy.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's wrapping up. In brief.

[Speaker 1]
To sum up, to sum, okay? To sum. Bless you.

Thank you. To summarize. Whatever meaning.

dun khala dzin yin, nyam shak na, lo mey pey tanye jar, jar mi ja te. You can't even, you shouldn't even use the word there's no mind around the idea of the direct perception emptiness. That's what I thought he was saying.

It's something like very radical. He's exaggerating. He said, that word, there is no mind, those words, that phrase, that phrase, there's no mind, don't even use it around the words direct perception emptiness, okay?

Okay, my jar needs supply. Don't even, you know, take those words and put them over there, and then over here put the words direct perception emptiness, and don't let them ever meet each other. Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Not even convention, not even nominal.

[Speaker 1]
No, and I don't care what context, I don't care what, I don't care what meaning you think it has. dun khala dzin, I don't care how you interpret the words no mind. In any way you interpret it, you're stupid.

Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Even if it's just Tanya.

[Speaker 1]
dun khala dzin, no matter how you take it, dun khala dzin, no matter how you take the concept there's no mind, they're all wrong.

[Speaker 2]
Any meaning.

[Speaker 1]
Don't give me that. I don't care how you interpret the word there is no mind. Okay?

I don't care, okay? Moreover, Okay, the Tanya jar means, the Tanya jar. Yeah, don't even, never apply this phrase to that experience.

Oh, it's about me. Lomepa. Quote, Lomepa.

Lomepe Tanya. Yeah, the words, Lome.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, the words. Ah, the words, Lome. Okay, cool.

This expression. That's the phrase. There's no mind.

[Speaker 1]
Cool. Don't ever apply that to the direct perception of emptiness. Okay?

Lopunyepse. Yeah, the master, son, and father.

[Speaker 2]
Which ones are we talking about? Probably Nagarjuna and Aryadeva.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, because we're in a book by Nagarjuna. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Normally it'd be Tsongkhapa and his two spiritual sons.

Right. But right now we're in the, yeah, Gyaltsabje. It's like me and Tsongkhapa thing.

[Speaker 2]
He wouldn't call himself a prince.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, yeah. Gyaltsabje. And their jendam.

Those who come after them. Those who follow them. Those who follow them.

We had another jendam recently. Yeah, accessories to wisdom and Abhidharmakosha. Oh, you had jendams.

Yeah. So here's the other use of jendam. There's two meanings of the word jendam.

By the way, literally it means to follow after, based on dharma. And in Abhidharma, jendam means just normal Abhidharma, not real Abhidharma, like the books.

[Speaker 2]
In your personal experience.

[Speaker 1]
Dey-tob-ja-chir. Dey-tob-ja-chir tin-tang. Dey-tob-ja-chir.

Dey-tob-ja-chir. Dey-tob-ja-chir kang-tang ten-chu-kang. That's Abhidharmakosha.

Okay? The things you use to get there and the book are jendam. They are accessories.

We said, like the purse and the belt and the shoes, but the dress is Abhidharmakosha. You see what I mean? The accessories are Abhidharmakosha.

The direct perception, emptiness, there's no self-nature in this school. It's the dress. And then the accessories are the books and the path that you use to get there.

Okay? Things like that. So in your text, jendam means that.

In your text, jendam means the lineage. The lineage that came after them. And there's another famous jendam.

Tepe jendam and Rigpe jendam. That's the third famous jendam. You should do a little jendam entry.

There's three famous uses of jendam. Here's one. A high lama and their lineage, their people, the school who came after them.

Abhidharma, the accessories to real Abhidharma. And then there's a third famous jendam. Rigpe jendam and Mungu jendam.

Tepe jendam. Tepe jendam. Those who follow text?

Tepa. Shraddha. Those who follow out of faith?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, oh, he's my lama.

[Speaker 1]
I believe anything he says. That's called Rigpe jendam. Rigpe jendam means what he said didn't make sense.

They use logic. The second are considered more intelligent. Until you get to tantra.

Right. Okay, lovely yavse jendam from Chepa. They say there is a mind.

Yeah, but who is the se in this yavse? Probably Aryadeva. It's only Aryadeva.

So when you say yavse sun, it's Sankappa and his two disciples. When you say yavse here, it's just Nagarjuna and Aryadeva, the father and son. Whether Aryadeva was a direct disciple of Nagarjuna, it's disputed by Western scholars.

It's not disputed in the tradition. Yavse jendam from Chepa. Lo yud be thani jang re che.

They say there is a mind. They agree that we can say that there is a mind. No, they have a different expression that they always apply to the direct disciples.

Lo yud. There is a mind. Yes, they do have a state.

But they have a different expression? Don't you go using the expression, they don't have a mind, anywhere near the direct disciples, they have this, please. And by the way, the people who invented this path only use the expression, you have a mind.

[Speaker 2]
Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about, would it be really pimp to have a quotation here of Nagarjuna or Aryadeva saying, Lo yud.

[Speaker 1]
Sure. I'm sorry, what?

[Speaker 2]
Would it be really cool to have a quotation here in a footnote of Aryadeva saying, Lo yud.

[Speaker 1]
I don't think they ever literally said that.

[Speaker 2]
What he just said, they literally said that.

[Speaker 1]
I'll take a look. Chok, he said chok. Chok.

Well, anyway. Oh, sorry. Now it gets cute.

That's hard. That's a bit hard. Is he going to move on now?

Say, jendam chuchikirupa. State of mind operating in ultimates, as opposed to a state of mind operating in nominals, conventionals. Okay, it means when you're ripping the thing apart and you're trying to find is it self-existent or not.

That's called jendam chuchikirupa. Then, tanye chuchibhirupa, nominal state of mind. Okay, it's a coffee cup.

You know, I'm just going to drink it, okay? Don't ask me to analyze it, okay? I'm not analyzing right now.

I'm drinking coffee, okay? That's called tanye chuchibhirupa. Okay, I'm just dealing with nominals and I'm having some coffee, okay?

Don't ask me. Jendam chuchikirupa is where is it coming from? What did I do to get it?

Like that, okay? So now the guy has another opinion. The guy's making one feeble last shot.

It's just a feeble last shot. I'm sure he didn't give up yet. Dey da la, dey da, dey da la chabinyabinyame.

Oh, they were just talking about reasoning which addresses ultimates. They were just talking about reasoning which addresses ultimates. Okay.

Therefore, dey da bi chepa mi cha. You can't think of it. You can't apply all this reasoning you've been doing, which was a non-arya fixing a problem with a problem.

Right, right. Okay, you can't go there, okay? Okay, okay.

Therefore, dey da na lo me ge chokyam nishako. You can say that, but even from that point of view, you can't establish there's no mind, okay? Who's talking there?

Okay, those guys, Aryadeva and Nagarjuna, they were discussing things in an ultimate sense, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Right, right.

[Speaker 1]
But I'm not. Okay, dey da mi cha. I'm not examining things in an ultimate.

Therefore, I can say there's no state of mind. Oh, no state of mind. I'm not discussing whether the mind's coming from its own side, as a nyambo.

Right, as a remedy. Yeah, I'm not doing that. I'm just talking in general, okay?

Those guys, Aryadeva and Nagarjuna, they were examining whether it exists in ultimate or not. I'm not. I'm just saying in general, okay, nominally, there's no state of mind.

I'm not talking, you know, it doesn't exist ultimately or it doesn't exist ultimately. I'm not saying that, okay? You're looking at the state of mind that's seeing emptiness, and they were examining whether it existed ultimately.

I'm not worried about that right now. I'm just saying in general, you don't have a state of mind right now. That's weird.

Okay, and then we say that, and we say, detana, you can't even establish there's no mind from that point of view. Right, right, right, right. Okay, detana.

You can try, but, kyang, you also can't establish even from that point of view that there's no mind there. Forget talking about ultimately. Okay, let's not talk about ultimately.

You're still stupid. You're still wrong. Okay, got it?

It's hard. Now a very funny part comes. Very Gyatso-ji.

Maybe you guys, I'll give you some money if you figure it out. No, no, no, it's my turn. This meaning is very difficult.

Yeah, these points are profound. These are tough points. Gyatso-ji is making a comment to us.

He said, these are tough points. Detar jeypa tsam yin gyi. By understanding them.

You know, I have, detar jeypa tsam yin gyi. You know, I've just given you this little analysis of my own. Okay, detar jeypa tsam.

I've just given you this analysis of my own. Disjunctive possessive. Yin gyi, yeah.

But, gagpa ser lang ma ma yin te. I'm not just trying to hassle these guys. I'm not just trying to deny whatever they say.

Ser lang means like without consideration. Usually ser lang means, it means spontaneous. I'm not just hassling these guys.

I've made some attempts in analysis here. And I'm not just lightly blowing them off. It's blowing them off, ser lang.

I'm not just like blowing them off, you know. But I have to say, these are hard points. And who knows?

My own mind is not so clear on it. Yeah, okay. My own thoughts are not perfectly clear on it.

And these are hard things. So he's kind of apologizing for picking on them. You know, like I've given you my best shot.

He's just expostulating. I didn't just blow them off. I tried to think about it carefully.

But, you know, these are hard things. And my own mind is not totally clear on it.

[Speaker 2]
That's nice after all the apologies.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I told me when I got this, I was laughing. She's cooking pies and I'm laughing. She's really laughing.

I said, this guy just beat this guy up ten different ways. And then he said, well, you know, maybe he's right.

[Speaker 2]
He beat him up for many pages.

[Speaker 1]
And by the way, the outline is way out of whack. Here's the outline, right? Right.

It's totally out of balance. He's spent a lot of pages on this point. I don't think he's going to do this anywhere else.

There's no space. 60 verses, we're on verse 3.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
He spent 4A to 6A, which is a lot. It's four folios he spent on this point. He spent four folios.

And we spent six months on this idea that you have no state of mind doing the dead position emptiness. We must have just had a good debate. There's three minutes left.

[Speaker 2]
Is he going so far as to say that the other guy may be right? No, he's not.

[Speaker 1]
He's just trying to express humility. But he doesn't feel it. Trust me.

If anything, he's criticizing him again. He's like, I'm an idiot, right? What would I know?

You're so smart. He just proved you every possible way. What do I know?

[Speaker 2]
Maybe you're right. Who knows?

[Speaker 1]
I think he's criticizing more. He seems to be a pretty hot guy. Just a couple minutes left.

Now we've reached nirvana. I had to go back and find it for you. Point number two in the outline.

So I went and got it for you.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you for making this outline.

[Speaker 1]
And I extracted the whole section. Oh boy. We were supposed to write who it is that...

Who is it that realizes that the meaning of dependent origination is emptiness? Oh, this is from earlier in the text. Way earlier.

Who is it that understands that the real meaning of dependence is emptiness?

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, this is from his text. And then, yeta gope rikta. There's two extremes.

[Speaker 2]
Stopping the extremity that things exist.

[Speaker 1]
Everything is the way it seems. The reasoning that stops things. Everything is the way it seems.

What's the opposite extreme? Nothing exists. Say it more beautifully.

The reasoning... Because if things did exist the way they seem... I'm sorry.

If they don't exist the way they seem, then they can't exist at all. Those are the two extremes. Either they exist the way they seem, or if they don't, then they don't exist at all.

Now, when you're fighting with a Hinayana school, when you're fighting with a lower school, and the main interest of the lower schools, is it yuta or metta? Ah, yuta. They think yuta.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, they want a debate? Well, they think otherwise about metta.

[Speaker 1]
They spend most of their time on... Yeah. They pick on us about metta.

Right. So, apparently they spend 90% of their time on one of those two extremes. Let's go there.

Okay, ready? Now... We got a wrap-up?

Our explanation of who it is that figures out that the meaning of dependent origination is really emptiness. Okay? Our explanation of that had two parts.

First, the actual explanation, which we just finished. Right. And then, Samuthambara Dambho misspelled, important misspelling.

Uh-huh. Okay? Advice, like kadambha.

Uh-huh. Okay? Advice to the reader, or advice to the practitioner, that they should spend more time working on emptiness.

Uh-huh. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh. Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Like, that's what we should focus on. Literally. This, then, means the habitual reliance upon.

Right. With an S. Uh-huh.

With an R, it just means rely upon. This is... With an S, it means it makes it habitual.

The classic... The classic occurrence of this verb is... Relying on a lama.

Shin-yen-ten-tsu. Shin-yen-ten-tsu. Just standing on your lama.

It doesn't mean once. It means as a day-to-day.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? So, let me just give you the two divisions in this one. Cool.

So, we're in the advice that you should spend more time on the emptiness. Okay? Uh-huh.

And he says, me-ta-ga-pa-she-sin-ten-pa-la-ja-wa-nam ye-ta-ga-pa-la-nyem-ba-dam-bo First of all, uh... Explanation of how to recall. Our...

Our refutation of the idea that nothing exists. Uh-huh.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Our refutation of the idea that if emptiness is true, nothing really exists. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

We're just going to remind you of what we already talked about. You know, one more time, we're going to say, by the way, don't forget, we just got through talking about why it's not true that emptiness means that nothing exists. Okay?

We're going to remind the guy. Okay? One more time.

Okay? What were we just... what did we just get through finishing?

We just got through finishing that just because things are empty doesn't mean they don't exist. Okay? So we finish, you know, Jambalajar means get him to remember.

Glue it to his memory.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
That's the first step. Then we're going to give him advice, dampa, that he should nyemba, listen, to the refutation that things could exist the way they look to be. Okay?

Yata calls to yata and that's why you have to pronounce your T's correctly. Okay? Yata calls to yata.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
The view that the world is as it seems, yata, calls to yata. You know? The extreme of existence.

That things do exist the way they seem.

[Speaker 2]
Why are we listening to one and remembering the other?

[Speaker 1]
Well, we just finished presenting. Well, we're not going to listen to the first one because we just got through listening to it for a long time. So he's just going to what do you call it?

Review it very quickly. Yeah, he's just going to quickly say look, okay, now you didn't forget what I told you yesterday, right? And the guy's like, okay.

So now I'm going to teach you something new. Now listen. And by the way, this is not the teaching.

It's just advice to listen. And don't forget, we've got a root text in here somewhere. And you'll be glad to know that we're about to hit the third verse.

[Speaker 2]
The first half of it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. 61. Yeah, 61 verse.

Thank you. Yeah, you are 5% through his verses. But somehow he's going to cover a whole bunch at once or something.

He's obviously going to do a horse race. Yeah, he's going to go into a horse race. Oh my God, I've got so many pages and I'm only covering four words.

[Speaker 2]
I have to turn this into Just Uncopified next week.

[Speaker 1]
Next term.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah.