Классика Алмазного огранщика: Верхний Срединный путь — Великие книги мудрости, занятие 11

[Speaker 1]
Okay, uh, just because sound doesn't appear to the consciousness of the eye doesn't prove that sound doesn't exist. Okay, why is he talking about that? Because we were talking about an arya and a direct perception of emptiness, and whether they, uh, whether they exist, whether their mind exists.

Yeah, good. Is there low at that time? And he can say correctly that the arya's own consciousness cannot watch its mind, because that's not ultimate reality.

And then we say, well, when you're smelling popcorn you're not looking at the movie. I mean, you know, your mind is focused on one thing, doesn't mean the movie doesn't exist. The mind watching the movie still exists, it's just you're not aware of it right then.

Okay, uh, please read. Okay, let's start from Nyamshak. Okay, uh...

Now he's going to mention two things which are yul and yul chen. Uh-huh, it looks like he's saying the meditation of an arya... Wait, don't go that far yet.

What's yul and yul chen? Subject and object. No, object and subject.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, right, right, that's right, yeah. No, it's important here. Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And then he repeats another way of saying that, he says, dok chan, dok je. Ah, the perceiver, the thing that's perceived. Yeah, good.

So you can say either object and subject, or you could say that which is perceived and the perceiver, okay? Now you've got a parallelism, right? Two and two.

Subject and object. Object and subject. Yeah, object and subject, objects and subject.

Now go back and respectively... say what they are. Yeah, here it is.

Yeah, nam chak, which is the meditation of an arya and the direct perception of emptiness. Uh, and? And dun dam dam pa.

[Speaker 2]
What's the order here?

[Speaker 1]
It's the meditation is the object. No. Well, it's the opposite, right, right, right.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So that's why I was confused that you were saying it that way.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it is confusing.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, so actually... Because the point is the opposite, but anyway, we'll get there. The subject, which makes, of course, more sense, nam chak is the subject, which is the meditation of an arya, and ultimate reality is the object.

[Speaker 2]
Good, okay.

[Speaker 1]
The fact that these two are subject and object, the fact that these two are perceived and perceiver, has been stated by...

[Speaker 2]
Scripture.

[Speaker 1]
No. Oh, oh. Lopunyapse.

Oh, that's the person, Lopunyapse, yeah, yeah. Whenever they say something like Lopunyapse, now you've got to go look for them. Who's he talking about?

Who would he be talking about? Well, I was guessing it was the master, father, and son, but since he's one of the sons, I was kind of confused. No.

Maybe Lord Atisha? Oh yeah, with regard to Je Tsongkhapa, it's three people.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
The father and the sons. But with regard to... Lord Atisha?

Oh, Nagarjuna, right, and Aryadeva. Aryadeva, okay, Nagarjuna and Aryadeva. Come on, they said it.

Yeah. You know, aren't we in the middle of a commentary about Nagarjuna?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Do I have to remind you that the person who said there was a state of mind during the direct perception of emptiness was named Nagarjuna? Like, he's being sarcastic, okay? And I just forgot, so he was actually doing that to me.

Was stated, it was stated by them. So, you need a footnote there to identify the Lopunyapse. Yeah.

Okay, and... DE LTAR THAN YOD PA'I SEMS MED GZHEL BA'I PHYIR Here's the GZHEL as it's used in Adam's text, in GZHEL BYA, which is thing to be perceived, you know, perceived thing, thing under consideration you can say, okay? By...

Yeah, that can be confirmed THAN YOD PA'I SEMS by the SEMS, accurate perception, which is dealing with nominal objects. Conventional perception, it says? Yeah, you can say conventional.

But can it be confirmed by a conventional perception? It looks... THAN YOD PA'I SEMS MED GZHEL BA'I PHYIR Yes, it says...

Is the fact that the meditation of nārāyaṇa is the subject here, and that ultimate reality is the object here, as stated LUNG RIG GI SGO NAS, as stated in scripture by the father and the son, Nagarjuna, Narayana, and Deva, that part's okay, but can it be confirmed with a perception which is not looking at ultimate reality? It can only be confirmed with a perception which is not looking at ultimate reality. Ah, no, well, no.

DE LTAR means, as we just described it, meaning the... during that direct perception. Can it be confirmed by that arya's perception in that moment?

No.

[Speaker 2]
Cannot be. Oh, I see the question, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Cannot be confirmed. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they don't have a perception of their own mind.

Yeah. But can you generally say that it is confirmed? Yeah, in retrospect.

Good, I like that, okay? That's a good start. Yeah, THAN YID PA'I TSE MA SOS We're just throwing in that it's also confirmed by a later perception.

He has a memory that he saw emptiness. So he must have had a direct perception of emptiness going on because he remembers the object.

[Speaker 2]
Like a bear in a cave.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, the memory of the object confirms that he had some perception going on even though he couldn't not have been aware of it at the time. Now, just be aware that— Memory is not a valid perception. Yeah, that's a good—see— But for Arya, it must be different.

Well, we're in higher school.

[Speaker 2]
Memory is a higher perception.

[Speaker 1]
In the lower schools, memory is not a valid perception. What's the definition of valid perception? Sardu milo e rikpa.

But in the lower schools, it's milo e rikpa. What, is it just me? Milo e rikpa, no sardu.

Oh, okay, just a valid perception. Yeah, but not— No, I'm sorry, in the lower school, it's sardu. Yeah, they have to say new.

They have to say fresh. Okay, now read this next sentence. kang dak nyam shak gi ma sik Low tone, sik.

na me... You gotta exaggerate it if you don't want to get in trouble. gos sol she ma wa tam Stop there.

Uh... kang dak here means anything, which is ma sik, which is in that scene, not perceived by... in Aryan state of meditation.

me gu You don't... Oh, you can't... Oh, there must not be.

[Speaker 2]
Good, yeah, cannot exist.

[Speaker 1]
Anything that an Arya's direct perception of emptiness doesn't perceive, cannot exist. That's Shenmue.

[Speaker 2]
He's studying Shenmue.

[Speaker 1]
Just be aware, he's about to say, this is one stupid idea, and here's another stupid idea. But when he said the first stupid idea, he didn't identify the speaker yet. Then there's a she ma wa, so is it...

scripture states that if there is no one perceiving, then the meditation will realize being a third direct perception? No, this she ma wa means, you know, statements like that. Oh, oh, oh, right.

You know, or positions like that. Okay. By the way, let's go to the end just so you get the punchline, okay?

rik pe tsu len de par You struggle with that and give me a shot. rik pe tsu len de par Oh, I... Wow.

Uh, the method... len de par, something that's transcended through the method of reasoning. Yeah, go beyond.

Yeah, through the method of reasoning. Yeah. You have, you have...

You have used reasoning to go beyond... Hey dude, you're out of bounds. You know, you've left the realm of reasoning.

Okay, you got it? Wow. Saying stuff like that, like you're already stepped out of logic.

Okay. You are out of bounds. Okay.

And I'm not going to say now why that's true, I'm going to ok ne chepa. Oh, I'll let you know below, I'll explain below. Yeah, we'll examine this question below.

So, is he saying... There's two questions, we only had the first one. Statements that anything you don't see during the direct perception of emptiness can't exist, first statement, we didn't get to the second statement yet.

But the stuff like that is, you've stepped out of the rules of logic, and we'll talk more about it later. We'll examine this question below. Ok ne is kind of deceptive because it means from below, but it means ok na, in the below.

Now let's get his second wrong idea, which is between the first one and this last piece we just did. Yeah, wang kang tsen chen ne. Now, you've got to know the...

tsen chen, kang tsen. Okay, it's an idiom in ancient Tibetan philosophy, which means, which takes precedence. It means, which one is more strong.

tsen here means, which one kicks the other's butt. It literally means something like that. Yeah, which one trumps the other.

Which one takes precedence, okay? I won't use the word trump though. Wang, see, power, wang.

Wang kang tsen. Who's more strong? Conventional perception or...

If they contradict each other, which one you go with? Oh, cool. You see?

Wang tsen ne. Which one takes precedence? Dantpe tsen ne or tan yinpe tsen ne.

Yeah, the perceptions of the ultimate, or perceptions of what is only nominal or conventional. When they bang into each other, who wins?

[Speaker 2]
Kang tsen.

[Speaker 1]
Kang tsen. Wang kang tsen chen ne. If you say, tan yinpe tsen ne, yula nupa chepa ni.

You've hurt the object. If you say that it's the perceptions of things that are nominal. It's kind of like, if you say that a perception of the ultimate is gonna do damage, it's gonna discount the object which is perceived by the nominal perception, okay?

If you give more credit, if you give more credit to the object which is perceived by the ultimate serma, and then you say it disproves all those little nominal sermas, you know, that somehow it's more valid. Uh-huh. Okay?

In the sense that it can disprove the existence of things that you see in a normal state of mind, like doors and coffee cups, you know. If you've got this, it's really another version of the first sentence here. Right.

You know? If you say that, you know, because something has been seen during the direct perception of an arya, then there can't be lo. There can't be a normal state of mind.

Which is to say, you know, once you're in the realm of perceptions of ultimates, then normal perceptions are invalid. Because they take precedence. You know, both of these illogical statements, both of these statements which go beyond the realm of logic, I will discuss later.

Okay, we'll look at those later.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Now, here comes another wrong idea by the other guy. And he's going to state it in everything before shena. So somehow you have to come up with a ridiculous statement before shena.

You know? Okay, so just when you're trying to translate a text, glance at the shena, and in your mind say, however I translate everything before shena, it's got to be somehow wrong. It has to sound wrong.

Okay? Then you've translated correctly. Everything before shena, especially in Adam's text, should smell wrong.

Something should smell wrong. Just go to the shena and feel, okay, now I've got to make a stupid statement, you know? Somehow I've got to get this to be stupid.

,RGYAL THEG DER LO, ,KHAS BLANGS NA LAM LAM, ,KHAS BLANGS NA LAM LAM, ,TSAN CING DU RGYUR RO, Okay, this is tricky. This is not an easy sentence. It's short, you know all the words, but it's still not an easy sentence.

That's all the sentences of this text. This text is hard. Yours and words are both quite hard.

His is hard because no one can understand it. Yours is hard because it'd be very difficult to understand it. ,RGYAL THEG means if.

I'll give you the first one free. I lost a hundred bucks already today, I'm not... ,RGYAL THEG DER LO, ,KHAS BLANGS NA LAM LAM, I just wrote V, bring money to...

,RGYAL THEG DER LO, ,KHAS BLANGS NA LAM LAM, Now, this is a very critical thing, and if I had more money, I would bet on it. Unfortunately, the bet never comes this way. ,RGYAL THEG DER LO, ,KHAS BLANGS NA LAM LAM, So, I'm going to help you out.

Here. If that one, okay. No, in that case.

The case of ultimate percent...

[Speaker 2]
Of NYAM SHAK.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, okay. Okay, if in that circumstance, he's repeating NYAM SHAK DU during NYAM SHAK. So, this DER means during that.

If during that, meaning if during the... Okay. If during that, that's all he says.

You know, thanks. If you were to, ,KHAS BLANGS NA LO, If you were to... Yeah.

Yeah, if you... This is the other guy talking.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, now listen. If you say he does have a state of mind during the DER procession of emptiness, there's the following problem. What?

BLANGS NA Then, LAM, a LAM would have to be, ,TSE MAR DZIN PA, ,TSE MAR DZIN PA So, it would have to... You'd be holding to the name of a path? DZIN, touristic?

Yeah. No, this DZIN is TSE MAR. TSE MAR?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Scientists? Science. Oh, right, right, right.

[Speaker 1]
So, TSE MAR DZIN is a short idiomatic Madhyamika term that means hold to the sign of things. It means grasping? It kind of means to hold to the self-existence of the data, of the raw data.

It kind of means that. Or, you see indications. You could call grasping to indications, would be a really sexy translation of this.

Indication, because the word indication implies an indicator. You say, this is an indication of sickness, or this is an indication of genius, or something like that. It means there's something behind the indication.

Okay, so TSE MAR DZIN PA means kind of to believe in the self-existence of the data, of the indicators of the object. The indicators of the object are a circle, and a white color, and height, you know, height about two palms high. There are indicators of coffee cup here.

You know, so if you grasp to them as coming from their own side. Which is weird, because it means that our kachik is another...

[Speaker 2]
They're just a wrong... They're trying to be, because they're disparaging... They're still...

They know that they can grip on us by gripping on Svatantrika.

[Speaker 1]
Which is weird, though, because Nagarjuna says that he's gonna... I mean, it seems like that, but Nagarjuna says he's gonna use the logic of the listeners. Which is weird.

Now there's a trick here. He means tonglam? Yeah.

No, what's the definition of lam? Realization? Yeah, realization.

Lam, the definition of lam is ngun tok. Like Abhisamayala Alankara. Yeah, ngun par tokpa.

Not direct. It's abhi and not ngun sum du. Okay?

It doesn't mean direct or something. It's spelled the same. It doesn't mean...

It's just an abhi on top of... znya. It's not znya, it's something else.

Anyway. But it still does mean tonglam, right? It means the realization of...

Or gomlam or miloblam, you see? According to his text.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
What you're saying then is during a state of lam. You see, so this means a mental state. It doesn't mean on the path or something like that.

It doesn't mean that. It means during a direct perception of capital P path. During path, this person must be holding to indicators as being from their own side.

This person must be holding to indicators as coming from their own side. If you agree that the Arya in their direct perception still has a state of mind, then since he has a state of mind, he must be holding to the indicators of objects as self-existent. Okay.

What's his khyaba there? All lows. All minds are grasping to something.

[Speaker 2]
Are tsen dzin. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
All lows are tsen dzin. Grasping to indications. Self-existent indicators.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, okay. That's his khyaba. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, shen na. Okay. This is a serious misspelling.

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Because it's...I would read it as RIG, personally. I would say question. I would check other carvings.

Okay. Now, ma means what? Anybody?

Yeah, ma is like giving up or... It's I admit. Yeah, oh admit.

Okay, admittedly. When you start a sentence with admittedly, uh, what's always coming next? A smashing of their...

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I admit that's true, you know? I don't know.

A horrible smashing. You're gonna take me to a lousy movie tonight because the last one was lousy. Then when you start the sentence with admittedly, what's gonna come is, I admit the last movie was lousy, but that doesn't prove the next one's gonna be lousy.

So there's always an admission followed by a but. I admit that if we were talking about, if we were saying that to his perceptions, to his perceptions, whose? The RIGS.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, good.

[Speaker 1]
So it cannot be here be logic. It cannot be RIGS. Right.

Okay, if you're saying that to his perceptions, there is, in his, the presence of his mind, before his mind, if you're saying that before his mind, there is lo. There is mind. Yeah, then I agree.

Yeah. Okay, because then the direct perception emptiness would be perceiving a state of mind, okay, and in that case, it would become a... Self-existing mind.

Uh, yeah. That mind would be ultimate reality. Senzen.

It would hold to indicators. I agree. I agree, okay.

But, now here comes the but. If, if that thing, so this RIGS means, here, perception, means perception during the tongram, during the direct perception.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, it doesn't mean logic. Okay, there's no problem in anybody's school with the state of mind appearing to us, to us, a logic. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it just doesn't make any sense here. Okay. I agree, that if we were, get this, okay, this is the punchline.

If what, if what we're saying when we say there is a mind during the direct perception of emptiness, was that it's the object of the direct perception of emptiness, all your arguments are good. Right. But it's not what we're saying.

Right, it's not what we're saying at all. Okay, got it? Yeah.

If what you're complaining about is that during the direct perception of emptiness, I'm looking at a thing which is a changing positive thing, and not an unchanging negative thing, yeah, there's problems. But we didn't say that. We're talking about the subject state of mind.

Hmm. Okay, got it? And we're saying that not all subject states of mind are...

are... tanyé. Yeah.

Conventional. Yeah. He doesn't have any conventional state of mind, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have any state of mind.

And when we say he has a state of mind, we're not saying he's watching a state of mind, we're saying he is having a state of mind. Yeah. Okay, okay, got it?

Okay. Is that what he says when he says tanyé?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Rigmor lo yurpa medna. If we're talking about a state of mind existing to that state of mind, then okay, okay? By the way, why didn't he just say lo here instead of rig?

[Speaker 2]
I have no idea. Oh, because he's using lo here. He's using...

[Speaker 1]
That guy's position is what?

[Speaker 2]
That there's a...

[Speaker 1]
Lo med. Yeah, that there's no mind. Got it?

We can't use... we have to use the synonym for lo. Yeah, because he already...

[Speaker 2]
You know?

[Speaker 1]
When we use a synonym for lo, we're already disproving him, but he didn't notice it yet. Okay? To the state of consciousness of an Arya in the direct perception, if he even accept...

even if he doesn't stop us by then, he's already accepting lo. But we don't say it, you know, and say, okay, to a state of consciousness, to that state of consciousness. But when we get that far in the sentence, he's already accepting something that he didn't want to accept, that he has lo.

Because he has rigpa. Lo, rigpa, namche. You had it in his text.

Okay? Which is why dorda is the key to emptiness. Its nickname is the key to emptiness.

Okay? The door to emptiness. Okay?

Okay, anyway. If you're talking about to his consciousness, in the presence of his consciousness, why don't we start out this discussion with about da? Oh, just because sound doesn't appear to the ear consciousness doesn't mean that it doesn't...

[Speaker 2]
No, to the eye consciousness. Okay, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Meaning, sound cannot come into the presence of the eye consciousness. So, so far there's been this theme of what can come into the presence of that consciousness. So, he's continuing the theme.

You know, if you're saying that mind appears to that state of mind, the direct perception of emptiness, then we agree. There would be tsen zin going on. There could be tsen zin going on.

Okay, but tanepay tseme, dey dar shakpe We're talking about a conventional state of mind. But we are talking about confirming the presence of a mind in the aryas during the direct perception of emptiness. We are confirming it with a conventional perception.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which kind of implies after the fact, I guess, right? Yeah, therefore, kalang gyur.

How the hell? Kalang gyur means where, you know, kalang gyur you say with a whiny voice. Kalang gyur, you know, how?

Okay. How the hell did the khandu sung yin tsen zin gyur way da kil me? Now, we go off on a long subject.

Okay. The hell? dey tar na If you're going to say that, okay, if you're going to say that lu khandu sung yin no matter what the mind perceives, no matter what the mind grasps, sung, okay, it has to be tsen zin, it has to be seeing things as self-existent.

Let's put it simply. Let's put it, oversimplify it for a second, okay? If it's that every state of mind, whichever grasps any object, must be holding to that object as self-existent, if that's what you're saying, any time any mind perceives anything, it must be holding to it as self-existent.

[Speaker 2]
Right, right, right, right.

[Speaker 1]
Therefore, there's no mind during the direct perception of emptiness. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh, right, right, right, right. Okay? Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Why you have this hang-up that there can't be mind during the direct perception of emptiness, I see your problem now. It boils down to, you believe any time there's a state of mind, it's believing that its object is self-existent. Therefore, during the direct perception that things aren't self-existent, there cannot be a mind.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
Got it?

[Speaker 2]
Yes. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
If that's your position, okay, TA BA RGYONG LUG means the way you run your viewpoint store. This RGYONG means uh... how you...

Merchants? No, hang on, how you manage... how you manage your views, okay, RGYONG means to manage...

like children, you know, how you... how you watch your children, how you manage your... viewpoints.

[Speaker 2]
How you manage your viewpoints?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, how you manage your viewpoints. The whole system by which you manage your viewpoints is gyai... is like Gyai Kimble.

Gyai Naki Kimble. It's like the Chinese guy. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
So, I apologize now to all the Chinese friends, but he's going to attack Bodhisattva, that one back in the time of Shantarakshita. Not Harsham, not... not...

not Harsham. Not Hwasham. And not...

Yuan Tzu. Someone before that, I think, right? Am I wrong?

[Speaker 2]
You mean the debater with...

[Speaker 1]
Kamalashila. That wasn't Harsham. We call him Bodhisattva, right?

Couldn't it be Hwasham? I don't think it was. It's Hwasham.

You think it is Hwasham? No, Xuanzang, I'm sorry.

[Speaker 2]
It's not Xuanzang. Yeah, and not Yuan Tzu.

[Speaker 1]
It's not Xuanzang, and it's not Yuan Tzu.

[Speaker 2]
It could be Hwasham.

[Speaker 1]
It's somebody whose name was Hwasham, but that just means monk, I guess.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah. It means... his Chinese name is Mahayana monk.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, in Tibetan it's Hwasham Bodhisattva. Yeah, and they don't translate Bodhisattva, they just call him... they call him Hwasham Bodhisattva.

Well, it seems... seems to be relating to that same debate that he had with Kamalashila, right? We're going to get there.

Okay, so, if... if you believe... that anytime you have a state of mind, it is misperceiving the universe, and if that's why you say, during the direct perception of emptiness, you cannot have a state of mind, then you're just going to what that...

abbot from China said. It says Guy Kimble, the abbot from China. Okay?

So, I went and got it for you. Okay, I went and got you this story, because it's got to be in your footnote, because he doesn't say more about it. He just complains.

He said, then you're like the Chinaman. Then you're like the Chinese abbot. You know?

So, you better have a footnote. Can we turn the air down now? Yeah, I'm cold.

I'm cold. When I'm cold, we have to turn it down. This is...

Rangchenzin.

[Speaker 2]
Rangchenzin. Sorry.

[Speaker 1]
Self-cherishing.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, oh, oh.

[Speaker 1]
So, I'm going to take you to... this lojong. Well, I'm going to take you to two texts.

We have some time, don't we? What happens after this? Oh, okay.

Okay, well, we'll go a few more minutes. Oh, okay, good. I got you two...

I got you two things, okay? I got two presents for you here.

[Speaker 2]
Thanks, Geshe-la.

[Speaker 1]
The first is sort of introductory.

[Speaker 2]
Mental training. I'm an advocate.

[Speaker 1]
Well, I'm going to give you two versions of this story, okay? One is just a brief reference, but it tells you kind of what Ha- Sorry, Ha-Shang's viewpoints were, according to the Tibetans. And, you know, there's...

surely there's another side to the story, as there always is. Okay. GNYIS PA NI Okay, so this comes from...

a... man... Yeah, we got to change that title.

Anyway, A Text for Developing the Good Heart in Tidal Waves of the Sun. What's the one that Ken Robertson translated? One of the first two books he did.

I think it's this one. And it's by... Horton means the Mongol's teacher.

Hor means Mongol there. Tim Horton.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
His name was Nam-khap-bel. His name was Nam-khap-bel. You know, the shining sky.

Okay, GNYIS PA NI YOD MED SOGS SU BRDZUN PA'I RTOGS PA GANG YIN BDEN BRDZIN RTOGS PA'I GSUNG BA'I YOD GANG YIN THAMS CAD KYANG BDAG MI BSTAN LA'AP PAS RIGS PA'I RGA BYED YOD MED SOGS SU BRDZUN PA'I RTOGS PA GANG YIN What does it mean to have a perception that things either exist or don't? And it doesn't say more, but it means self-existently, okay? BDEN BRDZIN RTOGS PA'I GSUNG BA'I YOD GANG YIN THAMS CAD All the objects that are held by a mind infected with BDEN BRDZIN, with self-existent perceptions, all of them must be BDAG MI BSTAN LA'AP PAS RIGS PA'I RGA BYED They must be the thing that we deny, RGA BYED.

Remember there's two RGA BYEDs, RIGS PA'I RGA BYED and LAM GYI RGA BYED. One is the state of mind is LAM GYI RGA BYED. It's famous that one RGA BYED exists and one RGA BYED doesn't exist.

Yeah, tell me which are which. Does RIGS PA'I RGA BYED exist or does LAM GYI RGA BYED exist? Yeah, the state of mind which believes in a self-existent pen is called that which is to be stopped by the path.

And then the pen that comes from its own side, the second husband, Stanley, is the RIGS PA'I RGA BYED. Never existed, can't exist, never will exist. And it is to be canceled by logic, RIGS PA'I RGA BYED, by reasoning.

Now, if you go too far in the RGA BYED, KHYAB CHE BA we call KHYAB CHE BA, if the area of RGA BYED gets too big, if the holding tank for RGA BYED gets to hold too many people, you've gone too far. If you include in the RIGS PA'I RGA BYED the LAM GYI RGA BYED.

[Speaker 2]
Then you can never stop it because it doesn't exist.

[Speaker 1]
Well, that's in my KHYAB, RIGS PA'I RGA BYED CHE CHEN. But anyway...

[Speaker 2]
You just said that.

[Speaker 1]
No, I'm just saying...

[Speaker 2]
If you negate the LAM GYI RGA BYED then you can't...

[Speaker 1]
What is the LAM GYI RGA BYED? Among all changing things, which category is it in? It's a mental thing.

Yeah, it's a mental thing.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So if you wanted to throw that into RIGS PA'I RGA BYED, things that don't exist, right? Then you could say that to a person who perceives the truth directly, It doesn't exist. It doesn't exist.

Which is to say, during the direct perception of emptiness, there's no law. Got it? So he's mixing up RIGS PA'I RGA BYED and LAM GYI RGA BYED.

Okay, good. Okay. So, DAG MED RTEN LA'AP PAS RIGS PA'I RGA BYED BSTAN PA DANG GCIG TU BRTAD PA RGYA'I KHYEN MO'I Then this mistake is the same as the Chinese abbot, Ha Shang's.

He looked... NGAL BAR SOS PA'I DBANG BA You haven't given it a break. NGAL means tired.

SOS PA means to take a rest. And NGAL BAR SOS PA means you're not giving it a rest. Okay.

If you're like that Chinese guy, you're holding onto the wrong view. Yeah, it means you're still not giving this position a rest. And your RGA BYED is KHYAB too big.

KHYAB CHE. KHYAB CHE. CHE with an S means too big.

The category of things that are RGA BYED is too big. Okay? GYI CHOG SO You have fallen into the side of the argument where people's RGA BYED is too big.

Yeah. Okay? Yeah.

That's all. That was from a Lojong text.

[Speaker 2]
Cool. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Just when we have footnotes... This is more of a general question for everyone, I guess. When we have footnotes where we have this much material, should we translate the whole thing and put that as a...

Usually not. Just a little portion of it or something? I would paraphrase more often.

Okay. I don't use other texts because I need all their content. I need them as a RIG PA'I...

As a LUNG GI DRUG BYED. LUNG GI DRUG BYED. Yeah, I just...

Anything. I don't care. Anything that's a text that can prove what I'm trying to prove, I'll say, Go look at that.

I won't translate the whole thing. But what you could do is paraphrase the viewpoint. Because all our text said was, You're getting like RGYA CHEN PO.

But we don't know what's RGYA CHEN PO like. So, my footnote... I wouldn't make a whole huge translation unless I thought that the people reading the book wouldn't accept what I said if I just referenced it.

If I said, You can go look on this page where you will find that he's accused of making the GAC CHA too big.

[Speaker 2]
Now, this will just be a couple sentences for him though, right? Or just one.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yes, it's up to you. But I...

Don't make the footnote so long that it distracts the reader from the book. Yeah, that's what happens in academia. And it's no fun to read the book.

Okay. Okay, we don't want it to be no fun. Now, this time I went to Changhyang Roppay Dorje.

He's this big, big guy. And he's also very connected to China. You know, so...

That's interesting, that's cool. You know, let's go see what... Now, I like this, and somehow you might...

I don't know what you want to do with this, but this is the history of the controversy. Oh, cool. Okay, so this is a little bit more than you wanted.

Okay? But to me it was interesting, because you always hear... See, like the first two references we had, they're just talking about that guy.

And there's no story. You don't know, when did he live? Who was he?

What did he say exactly? What's he being blamed of? All you're hearing is our side.

Okay, so here we go. CHEN PO'I PHYI SONG DE TSEN GYI DUS PHYI SONG DE TSEN is a Tibetan king, early Tibetan king. Okay, you can look up his dates in Sikh, in Tsingta Chamo.

Okay. DUS YIN PAR DUS LA In the time of him, DE TSE YANG, the great master, Padma Jungne.

[Speaker 2]
No. Sambhava. Oh, it's Padma Sambhava.

Yeah, this is his Tibetan name.

[Speaker 1]
Padma Sambhava and Ngak Chang, the holder of tantric lineages, named Dharmakirti. So it's not our Dharmakirti. Okay, it's a different Dharmakirti.

And Vimalamitra. And Sangye Sangwa. Probably it's Buddha Guhya.

Guhya. Buddha Guhya or something like that. You got to look them up.

People like that gather with PEN CHEN DANG DUB THOB PEN DUB PEN CHEN DANG DUB Siddhis? Panditas. Yeah.

Siddhas?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Panditas, which kind of emphasizes scholars. And... Practitioners.

DUB THOBS. Which emphasizes yogis. Okay.

These guys. DUMMA. Many.

From India. GYAL GUR BAS. CHEN.

Came to Tibet. High honorific speech. A great, a great number.

SHIG. A great number. Can I use a word like yogis?

That's pretty much... That's okay, but you know, it's just so tied up with physical yoga nowadays. Master practitioner.

Yes. All the subjects from... of the holy dharma starting with DUL BA Vinaya on up to DUMMA This GUR means the burden or the heavy weight.

[Speaker 2]
NAM means they took it upon themselves.

[Speaker 1]
They took upon themselves. Of explaining the...

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Of all the subjects from Vinaya up to Middle Way. CHEN YIN DAR BAR BYED PA PO People who spread this system of dharma education CHEN YIN Explain, listen as a noun. Oh, cool.

Education.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Explain, listen.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Explain, listen. That's pretty cool.

Means teaching. You know. DAR BAR Spread it.

These BYED PA PO These guys who spread it.

[Speaker 2]
They were the doers of that.

[Speaker 1]
NI LOP PA'I CHEN PO ZHI BA TSOR YIN PAR ZHI BA TSOR is Shantarakshita, yeah. The one... So now it's kind of like we got to go to this KYANG.

Okay. What's KYANG mean?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, so...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, a lot of guys came from India and did all this teaching, but the one who took the weight upon himself of teaching everything from Vinaya up to Madhyamika, whole range of subjects, was ZHI BA TSOR, was Shantarakshita. How do you know that? SNGON GYI YI SKYE SNYING PA DAG LAS GSAL BAR RNAM LO This is...

This is very apparent. This is clearly apparent from the ancient records. Okay.

SNYING MA means old. Like SNYING MA.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, of the past. This is... This is...

This is obvious from ancient records of the past. Okay. LO DPON CHEN PO'I SPAR MA BYUNG NAS KYIS PHOS KYI LHA ZIN RNAM LA DAM LA BTAG It is true that the great master, Padmasambhava, came to Tibet and DAM LA BTAG means bound them to vows.

Bound them to commitments. Bound them to commitments. Who?

Devas and simbos. Gods and demons. Okay.

Like local deities and demons. And this is what he's famous for. It's true he bound them and they made commitments to help Tibetan Buddhism and stuff like that.

DAG BZHIN RGYAL PO YAB SES SOGS LO MA MYUNG DU LA SANG SNGAGS KYI DBANG PO'I DBANG PO'I SNANG ZHING And to the... Oh, and it's true that I'm still... I think he's still talking about Padmasambhava.

That he did share with the king, father, and son. The king, father, and son. That's I think TSUL TZONG DE TZIN or you got to go find out who was the king and who was the prince during the time of Padmasambhava.

To a small group of disciples. MYUNG Not many. Yeah.

He gave tantric initiations. SNGAGS KYI DBANG And he gave them the Dhampas. The corresponding tantric...

This Dhampa means when it's with DBANG it always means he gave them the initiations and then he gave them the teachings. The associated teachings. SNANG is honorific.

He granted. Right. CHE, right?

Yeah. SNANG I mean, honorific for CHE?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Yeah. For DZIN.

[Speaker 2]
He gave.

[Speaker 1]
To give. PHRAD PA is non-non-arthroporific. S-P-R-A-D He gave it.

And Dharmakirti who is not our Dharmakirti. Right. Also DBANG KUR BA means he gave initiations.

He granted initiations into the mandala of Dorje Ying. The diamond realm. Cool.

The yoga diamond realm. Yoga diamond realm. Okay.

It's true he gave those initiations. So DZIN SNANG NGO It appears that they did. And now here's the qualifier.

DNGOS KYANG But TSE NYID KYI ZHUNG The great classics of philosophy. So maybe TSE NYID PA you want to say philosopher. But the great classics of philosophy.

ZHES PA So RDZAS PA'I GTAM MI SNANG We see no mention that they undertook to explain to people. So he's sort of hedging his bets. We see no mention.

Here GTAM means mention. It usually means conversation or talk. We see no talk in the ancient books.

But he's admitting that maybe they did but we didn't hear about it. We see no mention that they explained the great books of philosophy from India. MI SNANG LA And SNGAG CHOG KYANG Even if you're restricting the discussion to tantra.

Uh-huh. Okay. Mantra.

Restricting the discussion to the side of tantra. Yeah. Even on the tantra side of things.

On the tantra side. Yeah, yeah, I got it. They do, in those days, this is a Mayangat.

GA SHIN TU DANG PAR DGOS It was very closely held.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.

[Speaker 1]
I don't know about Mayangat. Yeah, it's a Mayangat, you know. In those days they knew how to treat tantra.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh. Who is this again?

[Speaker 1]
Oh, who is talking? Changkya. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
Greatest historian of philosophy in Tibetan history.

[Speaker 2]
We got to wrap it up.

[Speaker 1]
It's okay, I'm going to go over a bit. Uh... DANG PAR DGOS PAS Yeah, we got quite a ways to go.

We can do it at crickets or something. Yeah, thanks. The plane is taking off.

Uh... GA SHIN TU DANG PAR DGOS PAS Yeah, because it's a nice history of the time up to the Great Debate. This is the...

this is the introduction to the Great Debate.

[Speaker 2]
What's this book's name?

[Speaker 1]
Uh... It's called Siddhanta. It's the great book of Siddhanta, Drupada Chamu.

Right here, Drupada Chamu. It's the great book on comparative schools. It's the most famous, four huge volumes, 4,000 pages.

He wrote it in Tibetan?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, in Tibetan.

[Speaker 1]
But he was a teacher of the Chinese emperor, I think. He could write Chinese. Maybe, yeah, I don't know, but that's amazing.

Uh... Okay, I just want to go one more sentence. Wait a minute.

DANG PAR DGOS PAS Oh, we passed that. DANG PAR DGOS PAS Since tantric subjects were kept closely in those days, kyep del means widespread practice. Oh, from dar?

Yeah, kyep del means dar, yeah. Widespread practice, chewar madze. There wasn't.

There wasn't a widespread practice of it. Nang lo. We can...

it appears to be. It seems that because tantra was so closely held, its practice didn't go very wide. He says, seems that, because if they were really good in secret, then everybody might be doing it.

DAG CHOS KYANG Their views and activities, their views and practices, also.

[Speaker 2]
Even their views and practices?

[Speaker 1]
As far as their views and practices, okay? LHA BRTZON PA'I RGA LUNG GIS This king, LHA BRTZON, LHA BRTZON is an early Tibetan Dharma king, okay? In accordance with his command, RGA LUNG GIS, everybody was supposed to follow Kembo Bodhisattva.

I like this guy, Ho Hsiang. He made an announcement, everybody should follow Hsiang, in their views and in their practices. This king named LHA BRTZON, he announced everyone should follow this Kembo Bodhisattva.

RGYI ZHIG means you should be doing it. I command. RGYI ZHIG means do it.

Okay? RGYI ZHIG CHE PHYIM BRDAG PAR ZHES NANG NGO It appears that he... PHYIM here means law.

He promulgated this law. PHYIM means like widespread.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
We'll go this sentence and we'll stop. Okay. Okay.

DE LTAR NA, therefore, Khenchen Shiwetso, the great abbot, Shantarakshita, he was the indisputable tsultrim. So in English it's the same. Yeah, he was the undebatable person of the great vehicle who was following Nagarjuna, the views of Arya Nagarjuna.

He was the indisputable master of them in India. And because he was so influential in those days, as far as viewpoints in India, they never broke, they never went beyond the viewpoints of Nagarjuna. Okay?

Then because of that, he's going to be invited to come to Tibet and debate with... This is the story, yeah. Okay, so we're going to stop there.

[Speaker 2]
Well, there's...

[Speaker 1]
again, there's some huge debates about how it ended. Kamalashila is going to get into it. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.