Медитации на пустоту: объяснение шагов к пониманию того, что ничто не является самим собой, занятие 4

[Speaker 1]
Where are we?

[Speaker 2]
They are at Chirope.

[Speaker 1]
Let me...oh yeah. It's probably Chirope, okay? Who has a carving?

[Speaker 2]
Anyway...

[Speaker 1]
I mean, it's possible because it's three syllables. HA SA WA You know, it's... when you do a ER HA SA WA Anyway, I'm going to correct it to Chirope, okay?

That's more standard. That's more standard. Now, non-Buddhists, okay?

Outer ones. NYAM Thinking that they must, DGOS, accept some kind of self. Okay?

Non-Buddhists thinking that they should accept some kind of self. Accept, KHE LEN a self nature to the person. Meaning like a soul.

They accept that the person has a self. But, this lie is a mild disjunctive. Whereas, whereas the Buddhists say...

Now, here's a hard one to translate. BDAG TZAM KHE LEN RGYUD RGYU BDAG KHE LEN I'll give 50 cents to anybody who can translate that. RGYUD RGYU BDAG The self which doesn't exist.

Yeah, nice, 50 cents. I'm rich! Now you're rich.

Okay, RGYU BDAG means the self which does exist. Meaning the one that came out of an image in your mind, and you put on... That Sugong does exist, okay?

We can say that's the self. In this book, it's called the simple self. BDAG TZAM BDAG TZAM is a code word for RGYUD RGYU BDAG.

The simple self, we accept. Nick is Nick, we accept. But, YANG, now here's a difficult wording.

GANG SOGS KYI BDAG KHE LEN MI LEN We don't accept the accepting of a of a self nature to the person. And he should have said KHE MI LEN, period. And what he said is confusing, because normally when you have KHE LEN, KHE MI LEN, it means do you or don't you.

So, you know, this is a little bit difficult wording here, but given the context, you know, here's the context. We accept a simple self, but we blank a self nature to the person. Then it must be we don't accept.

So, that's where, because of context, you know what it should have been, and then you make it fit.

[Speaker 2]
Usually if there's a no like that at the end, it wouldn't be a question anyway, that makes it more of a definitive answer.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, right, and a question wouldn't come at the end. So, anyway, I read it as KHE LEN MI LEN Yeah, okay, good. So, the correction we made up above is correct.

Is the end here correct? I mean, it's just possible that it's not. There you go, KHE LEN.

You keep going to the end of the sentence. Keep going until you hit a slash. Whoa.

Oh, keep going to the next one. Oh, there we go.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, you know what? It's a mistyping.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's KHE MI LEN NO. So, we didn't have to stretch it after all. KHE MI LEN NO Okay.

That was a weird typing. So, now he's going to start on the question of what's the function of emptiness? Do you need it to reach nirvana, for example?

Okay, so he's going to start going into this question. NIR BA means those who assert a thing. And that's the first two schools.

And it's CI ROL BDUN DU MA BA. Those who assert the existence of an outer, outer objects. And then that has to be clarified as BDUN DRAN GYIS RTZOM PA'I CI ROL BDUN DU MA BA.

Those who accept outer objects which are composed of partless atoms. Okay. So, anyway, you can call...

These are scientists. These are people who believe that the periodic chart is the basis of all reality. Periodic chart means the list of the elements, like oxygen, iron, you know.

So, that's the lowest school in Buddhism. Science would be considered the lowest school in Buddhism. They believe reality is based on atoms, which have certain characteristics.

And there are elements. Element means you break it down until you reach the smallest unit, which still has a unique characteristic. Iron element is different from...

I don't know. Gold, for example. So, anyway, BDUN MA is a reference to a grouping of schools who still believe in outer objects composed of partless atoms.

And if I were you, I'd go have a footnote. I would find someplace where someone explains it. We can try, okay?

I don't know if it's going to be convenient to do it right now, but generally it's better to do it while you're thinking about it. And I really strongly advise you, don't... There's a thing in military.

You don't overrun the enemy, and then you have enemy behind you. You know? You just kill, kill, kill, kill.

You don't run in and fight past the enemy, and then suddenly you have enemy behind you and you can't get food from your ships, you know? The same with a book, okay? Like, don't say, oh, I want to translate more, and then leave your footnotes, and leave your bibliography, and then you have to go back, and it's not fun.

So, when you hit a footnote, finish it, and then go on. It's just housekeeping. It's like doing your dishes in the morning.

I don't care if you're late for work, wash your dishes, you'll feel happier later.

[Speaker 2]
So, speaking of footnotes, for, I don't know, prosperity?

[Speaker 1]
Prosperity?

[Speaker 2]
You'd like footnote the heck out of what we're doing, and then take out footnotes for the published version, right?

[Speaker 1]
No, no, because that also is a waste of time. You don't have time, trust me. Trust me, you don't have time.

You'll be lucky to do two, three books in your life. So, don't waste time. Don't make a footnote that you're not going to use, and make a footnote that you are going to use.

[Speaker 2]
So, are we using footnotes or not?

[Speaker 1]
Of course you are. She just said, should I make a footnote that I don't include in the public version? I said, I don't think so.

You decide. The only difference is that the online version has interspersed Tibetan. Yeah, it also allows jealous other groups to pick out your work and find mistakes for you.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Now look, I'm going to look for this expression, those who assert a thing, dun ma, near outer, meaning outer object, near cham me, which means partless atom, and near the word atom, du. Okay? So, I'm going to, within two lines, because I'm hoping to find an explanation of the literal meaning of the word who assert a thing, as a reference to the first two schools.

In fact, I might even add here, chidam mawa, chidam, chidam, okay? So, I believe, now I'm going to increase this to, let's say, four. And I believe this will help me to hit a classical reference to why are they called dun mawa, okay?

Why are the first two schools called dun mawa? And I can confirm Geshe-la's guess that it means, okay, not quite guess, informed guess. Okay, here we go.

So, the dun mawas, they believe, when they decide how does a thing exist outside, that it's dul cham me sakpa. It must be composed of partless atoms. Okay?

So, there's one confirmation. And you might make your footnote from this book by Je Tsongkapa, which ain't too shabby. Or you can have another one.

dun ma nyi kyi dul tren chok, dul cham me sakpa, rakpa chiru dun du dun. This is, this is definitive. Okay, this is Kedrup Tenpa Dargye, his author.

And he says, dun ma nyi, now it's even clearer. The two schools which are dun mawas, which means the first two schools, Vaibhashika's and Sautrantika's, those two schools believe dul tren chok kyi cham merpa, atoms made of, atoms which are partless as far as direction. Meaning there's no left side, there's no right side.

It's so tiny, there's no left side and no right side. Of course, we say that's ridiculous. In that case, the left side would be the right side.

You know, if you say partless, it can't have a right side and a left side. It has to be so tiny, nothing could cut it. Okay, which we say is impossible, because then the right side would be the left side, and it wouldn't have any width.

And if you piled up a million of them, it would still not have any width. So we say it doesn't, it's not logical. Okay, and we deny science on that basis.

sak te rakpay chiru dundu du, They believe that outer objects in their growth form are conglomerations of partless atoms, which have no direction to them. Okay, now that's a nice footnote for that. And I would use that.

Okay, it's folio 163b. That's all I have to tell you of s-o-o-o-2-2. And in fact, it's actually his text.

[Speaker 2]
Uh...

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. I think. No, I'm sorry, it's not.

It's his Madhyamaka version. Okay. But anyway, all you need to know is the folio, 163b, and the catalog number, which is s-o-o-o-2-2.

So, that's all you need for your footnote. You can piece together a footnote from that. du ma de nyi.

These two Buddhist schools, they believe chu kyi dakme kyi ta nye mi che kyang. They don't actually use the expression, ta nye means expression, lack of a self-nature to things. They don't actually use those words in their two schools.

In those two schools, they don't talk about the lack of a self-nature to things. And English is similar, right? We say itself, but normally when we say self, it means a person.

You know, himself, herself, yourself, themself. We do have a word itself, but we don't use it much. chu kyi dakme kyi lenpa min la.

But that, even though they don't use the expression, if pushed, they would not accept a self-nature to things. They don't accept. They don't use the term, but they don't buy it.

rang gyu pa man che kyi rang de nyi. This is that mild disjunctive la. In Russian they have one, a instead of i.

rang gyu pa man che kyi. rang gyu pa man che kyi. The schools from sva tantrika on down.

Including sva tantrika or not? Okay, important. man che means including that school on down.

Because in English if you say them on down, it's not clear. Or lower than. I don't know.

rang de means those who accept, those whose own school is that. You almost don't have to translate it in English. Those who belong.

Those who belong to the schools of. Okay? You can say it that way.

Those who belong to the schools of sva tantrika on down. Independent group. I say group, right?

Why group? Yeah, it's not a school. Middle way is a school.

And there are two groups inside of the higher. Okay? Wouldn't it be wrong to say it up through, even though that's not exactly the meaning, but that's the English that we use.

You might, but... It's... Yeah, you could use that.

But I wouldn't mess with it. rang gyu pa ni. Now, here's the punchline.

This is the important thing that you're going to say in your translation today. tarpa tsam toppa la. Now, I want you to translate it, not anybody else.

Okay? tarpa tsam toppa la. Don't forget tsam means just.

chu kyi dang me tok gu. You must... with an S.

Yeah, chu kyi dang me. Lack of a self to things good, in order just to achieve tarpa. Meaning nirvana.

Meaning nirvana. Okay? de mi she.

They don't believe that. They don't accept that. They don't say that.

Okay? Alright? From the lower middle way on down, they don't say that you have to see the emptiness of things to reach nirvana.

Okay? What kind of emptiness you do have to see? Yeah, the emptiness of person.

But they don't talk about you have to understand the emptiness of a pen to not get angry at your husband anymore. Okay? They don't say that.

Got it? And in fact, the lower two schools don't even use the word. They don't have an expression for the lack of a self to things.

Got it? Okay? Which means that a school and a half do.

Mind only and lower middle way. They have the word, but not even they think that you need to see it to reach nirvana. Okay?

So, among the first three and a half schools, two schools don't even have an expression for the lack of a self nature to things, although if you ask them they would say, yeah, I don't agree that there's a self to it. And then the mind only, school number three, and 4A, the first half of the middle way school, they don't... they have the word for the lack of a self nature to things, but they don't say you have to see that to reach nirvana.

They say it's enough to see the lack of a self nature to people to reach nirvana. Okay, got it? Why do I have a footnote there?

Why did I go get you a footnote there? Oh, I was curious about that dun ma I think. Okay.

I found my own little... I think that's it, yeah. Here.

This clarifies what the two schools are in question. CHE DO CHE DO It's misspelled by the way, which doesn't help. It's CHE without a D.

D2, the CHES and the DOS. Yeah, CHE DAG MA DBANG DO BDE PA I like this quotation because it gives the names of the two schools who are... And here's the BEM PO that we learned in Adam's text.

Physical matter. Matter as opposed to form. Okay.

Their version of outer objects, CHE DON, mainly has to do with physical matter. Okay. Okay.

By the way, because they accept that, they are called dun ma wa. Okay, so that's a nice... that's a perfect reference.

I went and got it for you. I command to ext it. I command seed it to get it out of the gopher.

And then I command ext it to get the whole... It's GUNG DANG KHO BA'I SBYOR BSTAN PA'I DUS MA'I SRID DANG TA text. Which is S-O-O-9-1-8.

Okay. And unfortunately, I didn't put the folio numbers. You would have to search for...

I can give you this. By the way, there's an important spelling here somewhere that makes it confusing. So this shouldn't be D, right?

And there's another mistake. ... Something wrong here.

Okay, it shouldn't be DE BA, which is happiness. Okay. This is okay.

The S is okay. It means because of that they're called dun ma wa. Okay.

Let me see if I can guess. ... ...

[Speaker 2]
... ...

[Speaker 1]
... It doesn't make any sense. ...

... ... By the way, this is when we would like to have the A file, B file, C file, D file.

A huge archive. A huge mass of text. Where the first typist may have gotten it right, and the fourth typist corrected him wrong.

You want to keep those? Yeah, for this purpose. If I don't have a scan, and in the early times we didn't keep the scans.

We couldn't store them. There were too much data. So we gave them back to the guy who carried it out of Tibet, and he lost it on the train.

And we don't have the original anymore. So... ...

... ... ...

I can't guess here. I can't guess what it was. Anyway, it's a perfect explanation.

Okay, so you'd have to go find the scan. Nowadays TBRC is so active, and they work so hard. They put text in every single day, and they date it.

On the website, it tells you what they did today. And I really admire those people. We should have a party with them someday.

Yeah, if I get a lot of money, I'll give them some. Seriously. Well, we invited the director out for this term, but he was too busy.

Let me think about it. I mean, I'd like to say Lord Nangway or something, but I don't know. And then I found another one, I think.

Oh, this is a debate between them and the mind only. Okay, about outer things. So, don't worry about it.

Okay. ,GANG ZAG YANG RGYUD THUG PA'I RDZAS YOD, ,GYI STONG BA'I DANG MED RTOGS SHING, ,GRON PAR BYED PA TZAM, ,GYI LTA BU STONG NYID PAR ZHES PA'I PHYIR RO, They believe... Rather they believe...

Who were the last guys we were talking about? Four eight down. Four eight down.

No. They were talking about the first three and a half schools. Most recently in the text.

We're talking about the last three and a half schools. The lower three and a half schools. Okay.

They believe, ,GANG ZAG RANG RGYUD THUG PA'I RDZAS YOD, ,GYI STONG BA'I DANG MED RTOGS SHING, If you grasp... Okay. That...

If you grasp no self-nature in the form of the person being empty of. Okay. If you grasp no self-nature in the form of the person being empty of being self-standing.

Being empty of of substantial existence in the sense of being self-standing. Okay, sorry. It is...

If you perceive no self-nature in the form of the person being empty of being substantial in the sense of being self-standing. Okay, sorry. Okay.

Not only RTOGS, but GOM. No. Wrong spelling.

Yeah, if you get used to it. Okay. That's enough.

TZAM GYIS. Just that. Okay.

Meaning, without seeing the emptiness of things. Okay. If you do no more than that.

TZAM GYIS. THAR PA THOB NUS You would be able to reach nirvana. That's what they say.

Yeah, you would be able. SHES. That's what they say.

So now we've covered the beliefs of the lower two schools. Then we covered the beliefs of the three and a half schools. And what will come next?

Yeah, now what does 4B think? What does the THAMS RGYUR BA think? What do they think you have to see to reach nirvana?

Okay. This is where it gets easy. Okay.

The Prasangikas say, the Prasangikas deny MI SHES. The Prasangikas deny that you would be NUS PA that you would be able to THOB to attain THAR PA without understanding, without grasping. They just said realizing.

They didn't say directly. Without realizing GNYIS KA. Both.

Both. The lack of a self to things and the lack of a self to people. They say you can't reach nirvana if you don't realize both.

Okay? Okay? Now you've got three possibilities.

First two schools think something. Three and a half schools think something. Last half school thinks something.

Okay? First two schools don't even use the word the lack of a self nature to things. Although if you push them, they would say yeah, they don't have a self.

Three and a half schools believe...

[Speaker 2]
You don't have to see the lack of a self to things.

[Speaker 1]
It exists, but you wouldn't have to see it to reach nirvana. And the fourth school says you'd have to see both. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
When they say lack of a self to things, is that... Does other people other than yourself fall under things or people?

[Speaker 1]
Ah. Things.

[Speaker 2]
It does, right? Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
As far as I'm concerned. Other people are part of my heap of form, actually. And there's this weird argument that because they talk or something like that.

So anyway, let's not go there.

[Speaker 2]
What does it fall into the lack of...

[Speaker 1]
Say again?

[Speaker 2]
For a person. I mean if we're doing it from the point of view of our own experience.

[Speaker 1]
Well, those would be called parts of us.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So what's a thing then?

[Speaker 1]
Even your finger is a thing. Your own finger is a thing. Utpala is self.

Okay. CHE DAG MA BA DKA' GCIG Some of the Vaibhashika, meaning there's going to be other Vaibhashika. Okay?

Okay. Some of the Vaibhashika say, GANG ZAG LTA GCIG RANG DBANG CHEN Okay? Who had that expression?

[Speaker 2]
Me.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, it was you, okay. The RTOGS PA spelled without an S. You can say idea.

It's not quite so strong as delusion, but it's close. Okay? The idea that the person, GANG ZAG, is LTA GCIG, is GCIG, is RANG DBANG CHEN.

The idea where you believe, DZIN, that the person is unchanging, singular, and in control. Okay? Two.

There's a Daini grammar case where you hold that they are, or as being. Okay, so that's the Daini grammar case. We elected him as president.

Unfortunately. DANG DZIN They believe, RTOGS PA, okay, second line. They believe, now this gets really sexy.

This gets really sexy. Is your wrong belief something you were born with? Or is your wrong belief something you developed after you were born?

And this is a very important distinction in the higher schools of Buddhism. LHAN DGE I think it's sujata, came along with being born. You know?

You had it from birth. Okay? It's called LHAN DGE.

LHAN means inbuilt, built in. It's part of you when you're born. Then KUN DAG, in this sense, okay, KUN DAG in this division, in this contradistinction between LHAN DGE and KUN DAG, KUN DAG means learned in your lifetime.

Picked up during your lifetime. Since you were a teenager or something. Something you developed later.

There's like diabetes you're born with, and there's diabetes, late onset diabetes. KUN DAG is late onset. Okay, and it means, literally it means, and it's spelled many different ways.

It probably means glued on to you later. Okay, like dok. Okay?

But sometimes it's spelled with a BRT, which would mean comes with thinking, comes with consideration. So, you'd have to look at the Sanskrit. Okay, which we might as well do.

Okay, so KUN. Is it KUN DAG? Okay, look.

Or is it KUN DAG? Big difference. And this is as opposed to...

[Speaker 2]
In the Mahayana school?

[Speaker 1]
No, as opposed to...

[Speaker 2]
LHAN DGE.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, LHAN DGE, inborn. Built in. Born with.

Okay? And this is an important subject in Buddhism. You know, which wrong ideas are you born with?

And which wrong ideas did you learn in your lifetime? Yeah, that's a good idea. That's a really good idea.

But, it might not be that way in the dictionary. So, here it's PARI KHAL PA. But I don't like the spelling.

Because KHAL PA means to consider.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
See, but... See, here it's both spellings. Here you got both spellings.

Okay, thanks a lot.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
What you might do... I mean, I believe this is the correct spelling. Okay?

But it's not the spelling our author used. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
Without the RAR.

[Speaker 1]
Without the RAR.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, without the RAR.

[Speaker 1]
BRT. And this is the past tense of MDOG, meaning to connect. Or to glue on.

And BRT is the past tense of to consider. VI KHAL PA. So probably BRT is correct.

Okay? We could... Now, this is where Phil's database is going to come in handy.

When it comes out. Because we'll be able to go to the works of Tsongkapa and see what he used. So, did he use Kuntak?

Or did he use Kuntak? Okay? Near LHAN GYAS as Utpala suggested.

Okay? Within two lines maybe? And then it'd be nice to just go to a book by Tsongkapa.

So let's do that. We're going to search. We're going to limit ourselves to a book by...

Let's go to Madhyamika. Okay? And let's go to...

Commentaries? Let's go to... Oopsie.

That's irritating. How about commentaries to... Sorry.

Umla Jupa. Here we'll hit Gombalabsel. Okay?

So in the text I just showed you that I'm working on, how does Je Tsongkapa spell it? Because that's the one we're going to buy. And I don't care.

Okay. Ready? Ready?

It's KUN BRATOGS, but it's not LHAN GYAS. That's a good example. Okay?

[Speaker 2]
So could we also make a footnote about that?

[Speaker 1]
I would. Yeah. Now BTAGS I think became a monastic standard.

And it's wrong. Or it's not... It's not the best.

Okay, got it? Because BRT has this KALPA root, VIKALPA, meaning to consider. Okay?

I was trying to struggle with a cognate for KALPA. KVELP. Consider maybe, I don't know.

No? I could show you how to go to Indo-European roots, if you really wanted.

[Speaker 2]
Alright, here we go.

[Speaker 1]
You're over on time. I'm only telling you that after you say it. Yeah, yeah.

Oh we're not? I'm sorry. Okay, if you want to go see, if you want to go deeper.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Okay, if you don't want to go too deep. Sorry, let's do it with the gopher. Okay?

General Sanskrit roots, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
KALP.

[Speaker 2]
KALP.

[Speaker 1]
KALP. Okay? You go to Whitney's roots, Dwight Whitney.

Which is incomparable. Yeah. Extraordinary.

Okay? And there you go. Okay?

The ultimate root for consider is to be adapted. Okay? KALP.

[Speaker 2]
KALP.

[Speaker 1]
And here are derivatives of it. KALPA KAL, KALPA NA. I don't have that.

Okay? These are his roots. Then he makes, he makes very good notes.

With this root are apparently related. KERP. Because R and L in Sanskrit are basically interchangeable.

Okay? So if you're looking for an English cognate, you can also look at KERP.

[Speaker 2]
KERP.

[Speaker 1]
KALP and KERP. L's and R's in Sanskrit are interchangeable. Okay?

ROCH and LOCH. Same meaning. To be light.

To be shining. ROCH YETTE. Okay, so if you're not satisfied with that, if you can't come up with an English cognate from that, you can go older.

Can you share this? I don't have this. It's in your database.

[Speaker 2]
It's in the reference?

[Speaker 1]
Whitney? But then you can go later. You can go, you can go earlier.

I need that. It's in the database, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
You can go later to the Indo-Europeans. Okay. And all I have is a scan.

So that's under scans. It's a very major work on... Where do I have that?

I'm about to see. It's in Sanskrit. Yeah, here.

Indo-European Roots. Okay. And you can use this one.

Okay. This is a nice, this is a nice book. And I just searched the PDF.

Okay. So you can say clip, and see what you get. And it's a little slow because it's a...

[Speaker 2]
Do an OCR.

[Speaker 1]
And you don't get one there. You can try CURP.

[Speaker 2]
Would it be too much to ask of Sanam that they input this?

[Speaker 1]
Or would it be... It's a bitch.

[Speaker 2]
Maybe Santosh and them could do it, because they're more Sanskrit.

[Speaker 1]
I might... Then I might just go down to the KLs. Okay.

We better blow it up a bit. It's so amazing they have input there.

[Speaker 2]
Is it not worth it?

[Speaker 1]
It'd be fine. We could do it. Okay.

That's so cool. So you go down to the... You go down to KL, okay.

OCR. OCR is funny about diacritics. Oh, it's a mess, yeah.

It may be related to KL in the meaning of to divide mentally. So CLIP may come from it. Okay.

Yeah, the CLIP. I don't think there's any K-E-L-P. Here's K-E-R.

I like the little notes he has sometimes. This is Krishna, by the way, in serial. K-E-R.

Like karma comes from that. Say again?

[Speaker 2]
It's more like kosher.

[Speaker 1]
Sorry?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, we can't really spell it in English. The real sound.

[Speaker 1]
Around the time of Shakespeare, the K's changed to C, the hard K. To a hard C. Anyway.

But that's why serial is related to karma. Or crescent. Or Krishna.

Okay. So anyway, here we got into the KLs. And we're looking for maybe a KL.

There's KLANG. Here we go. KLAP.

This is kleptomaniac. Okay. Not related to Kalpita.

Or maybe it is. I don't know. Just deal.

Is there any KREP? So you got to go looking around. Roof.

[Speaker 2]
You could read this for fun.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. You know there's people who...

[Speaker 2]
It's pretty awesome.

[Speaker 1]
There's people who... There's Bible scholars, especially Strong, who spent his whole life looking up these things for the Bible. Because he believed that these roots were important.

That Jesus meant these roots to be significant in the Bible. So Strong's Concordance is a good source for linguistics. Anyway, you could spend some time on that.

I would say it's probably related to KLIP. KLIP. Which is kleptomaniac.

[Speaker 2]
To steal.

[Speaker 1]
Klip somebody's purse. And then VITARKA. To divide meanings.

To snip meanings. Like that. Kind of cool.

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, there's this course I took at Harvard where we would have like six people in a room who were pretty high in government and whatnot. And we'd talk about problems that they had. Trying to get things working for the government.

And then one person would be like just listening. And they would write down the words that were used most often as the person described the problem. Then we would take those words, find their roots, and we would look at the root.

And inevitably, what was in the root of what they were speaking was the way out of their problem.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, that's very interesting. Isn't that cool? Wow.

Linguistic problem solving. Wow.

[Speaker 2]
That's very cool. We know more than we think we do.

[Speaker 1]
By the way, there's an argument that the word Indo-European was created by the British to justify their presence in India. But anyway.

[Speaker 2]
Makes sense.

[Speaker 1]
Where were we? CHE DAG MA BAG KA BYAS So, some... Some...

Do we still have any time?

[Speaker 2]
Yes, we do. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Some of the... Some of the bybashikas believe, duh, okay, that the idea, meaning wrong, tokpa, no S, the idea or the thought that holds that the person is unchanging, singular, and independent, okay, that that's the inborn version of holding to the self of a person. That's the one you're born with.

That's the one you're born with. Some bybashikas say that. You know?

KA CI RANG This might be DANG. Not sure. Yeah, I don't believe RANG though.

Go down, go, you know, go this way. Yeah, okay, keep going. This way?

Oh, no, you're right. We're above here. Slow down.

I don't see it. Go up. We're getting close.

Oh, this is it. Next, the next line after that, over here. RTOG PA DE'I DANG ZHIG LA YOD SU BDE BA LA KA CI I take it as DANG.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, so I'll take it as KA CI DANG. It's not great, yeah. Which would, if I'm going to read it as KA CI DANG, the carving is kind of halfway between.

I take it as the rest of the Vaibhashikas, and the... Yeah, I'll take this as DANG. And maybe we find another carving someday.

Okay. And those on down from the Sautrantikas, okay? Believe.

This KYI means... This KYI, K-Y-I-S, goes with ZHES over here. They say, and then there's the end quotation mark here, okay?

They say the following, and you start your... Tibetan doesn't have a beginning quotation mark. It just has the second one.

Then you have to guess where the first quotation mark is. Okay? But I would start the quotation mark after this KYI.

They say, okay? Quote, DE YIN NA, DANG TZIM KUN DANG YIN PA'I KHYAB If something is that, meaning, the wrong idea where you hold to the person as being unchanging, singular, and independent, okay? That's all referring...

This DE refers to everything from GANG ZAG to RTOG PA. Okay? They say that if something is that, it must be the KUN THAG version of DANG TZIM.

Yeah, the learned version. Learned means you went to a class on Buddhism and some Lama gave a bad explanation, and you learned some wrong idea. That's KUN THAG.

As opposed to? GZHAN GYAS, okay? Which is inborn.

You were born with it. Okay? So, the first half of the first goal thinks that the tendency to see the person as being unchanging, singular, and independent.

And we learned the definition of those three already in her book, okay? It's something that's inborn in everybody. And half the Vaibhashika and all of the Sautrantika believe it's developed later in life, late onset.

Okay, you got it? And then, not only that, KHYAB, it's always the case. They say it's always the case that you develop it later.

Okay. You alright? You still with me?

Okay, you're brave. Well, I'm not so sure, but anyway, GANG ZAG RANG RGYA, right? Misspelled.

THUB PA'I RTZE YOD DU BRDZIN PA'I RTOGS PA LA Oh, I'm sorry, yeah. Now we're on a different subject. We treated THAG, GCIG, RANG RANG CAN.

But we didn't treat RANG RGYA RTOGS PA. Self-standing. Which is kind of close to independent, right?

But anyway, in this text, we're getting that as a separate quality. Non-existent quality. It's a separate zero.

RANG RGYA RTOGS PA, self-standing. This LA means slight disjunctive, right? So they believe the tendency to see the person as unchanging, singular, or independent is something you learn later in life.

Whereas, instead of but. But is a strong disjunctive. This guy believes that, but this guy believes that.

And then whereas is a little bit softer. Okay? It could have been KYI, you see?

It could have been KYI, and it would have been more of a strong disjunction. Because this is confusing, because LA can be a conjunction. And DANG.

Sometimes LA means DANG, sometimes LA means KYI, is what I'm saying. What's that? Both, same thing.

Yeah, but. Okay. See, one is a strong disjunctive.

They believe that, but these guys believe that. But when you say, these guys believe that, whereas these guys believe that, it's a little softer.

[Speaker 2]
Sometimes it just means and.

[Speaker 1]
Sometimes it just means and. You could say almost, but not very often. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Now.

[Speaker 1]
Conjunctions don't get to be in any of those. Yeah, KYI is not a genitive used as a disjunctive. It's a separate word.

Okay. Yeah, in this case, it doesn't belong to the conjunction, to the declensions. Ouch.

Yeah, yeah. It's a separate grammar protocol. It's like and is not a and is not a declension, right?

It's not. Yeah. Okay, here we go.

Sheila. GANG ZAG RANG RGYAL THUB PA'I ZAD YUL DU DRIN PA'I RTOG PA So now they're talking about the wrong idea, which holds the person to be self-standing. Okay.

Which we haven't covered yet. Okay, got it? We covered three qualities.

What were they?

[Speaker 2]
Dark.

[Speaker 1]
Unchanging. Singular. Independent.

But we didn't talk about self-standing yet. Now, how do they feel about self- GANG ZAG RANG RGYAL THUB PA'I ZAD YUL DU DRIN PA'I RTOG PA LA They say for the most part, okay, RKABS CHE BA for the most part, meaning there are guys who don't agree, there are single guys who don't agree, RKABS CHE BA for the most part, they believe, and I think he's still talking about the last, the school and a half, some of the Vibhashikas and all the Sautrantikas, okay, they believe that's the inborn version. Okay. And this is where you got to go meditate on it and say, is it more likely for me that even as a small child I would have seen things as self-standing but not as unchanging?

Is in my own self, in my own being, am I more likely, as a child, right, we call it unexamined, right? Without being asked. Did I have this feeling that things were self-standing but I didn't have this feeling that things were unchanging?

You see, because that's what they say you do. Because that's what they say you do. And what's their justification for that?

So you have to examine it in your meditation. And that's why this is a book on emptiness meditation. You have to go examine what's the difference.

And the only real place to examine it is during your meditations. And if you don't meditate every day you won't have a chance to do that.

[Speaker 2]
So I could have an appendix that would list the meditations and where they are in the text.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah, this one is supposed to be fruitless.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay? Yeah. But it would reveal why those schools had that idea.

Okay? And to do this meditation you would have to have a very clear distinction in your mind between self-standing and independence. Which I don't, okay?

But maybe you can. Okay. Then he does this lung gi dupa.

He quotes a book to support himself. Okay? He quotes the Dong Tun Chenmo.

The great book called An Interlude on Emptiness. Okay? By the way, it means I believe there were lesser Dong Tuns running around.

But you know, you might have to check that. CHE DAG MA BA NAS From the Vaibhashika up to Umurangyupas. Okay?

The independent group of the mind-only school. Okay. Sorry, middle-way school.

Which involves both Mahayana and Hinayana. THEG PA BYAS CHUNG Okay? Those people.

RANG BDA'I We're going to think about it as those who belong to those groups. RANG BDA'I Own group. Meaning those who belong to those groups.

GZU'I LUG LA YANG Doesn't matter who you're talking about among those. Okay? Doesn't matter.

GZU'I LUG LA YANG Doesn't matter which particular school you're talking about in that group. Okay? GZU'I LUG LA YANG GANG ZLA RANG RGYA'I THUB PA'I MDZAD DU DU RDZIN PA GNYIS This and only this, the tendency to believe that the person is self-stand...

Sorry, is substantial in the sense of self-standing. Because we've had substantial in the sense of being independent. That and only that.

GNYIS DU Okay? That and only that is they believe. Okay?

Now, go slow. They believe is the RDZIN STANG. So this is a new word that you have to learn.

RDZIN STANG Okay? STANG means almost the classical place that a Lama will take you to learn the word STANG is in the gate of a horse. Okay?

Their GYUG STANG. STANG means how do you do it. Okay?

How... Horses can run like this or they can run like this. It's a different way of running, right?

When you hit them, they... But before you hit them, they're going DIG, DIG, DIG, DIG That's all called STANG. Like a dance.

When you perform a dance and you're going DIG, DIG, DIG Or you're going DIG, DIG, DIG, DIG Or you're going DIG, DIG, DIG, DIG These are all STANGS. These are... Steps.

I don't know. Gates. They are gates, yeah.

But here it's RDZIN STANG means in the study of perception RDZIN STANG means how... what's your take on it. Okay.

How do you hold... What's your feeling as you hold the object? Okay.

How do you take it? Okay. We'll talk more about it.

But anyway, RDZIN STANG GI YUL means what is it... what is it that you feel is there? Okay, RDZIN STANG GI.

How do you take it? So a normal person, RDZIN STANG GI YUL for a pen? It's a pen.

It's out there, unzoned. Coming this way. Okay.

That's called how they take it. It doesn't mean do they see your pen or not. It's not talking about that.

It's what's their...

[Speaker 2]
The ontological status of the pen.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. What's their feeling? No.

In English we say what's their take on the pen. You know. If you say how do you...

Is the pen their object? Yes. That's not RDZIN STANG GI YUL.

Okay. RDZIN STANG GI YUL means how do they take it. The pen which is coming from its own side is the RDZIN STANG GI YUL.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. So it's related to how it exists?

[Speaker 1]
No, it's related to how they see it. It's not related to whether they see it. Okay.

It's object of perception. That's not RDZIN STANG GI YUL. It's the object they think they see.

Is it related to how they like it or not? No. Usually in Buddhist philosophy it's how they feel it exists.

Do they think it's coming from its own side? Do they think it's coming from their side? And if you want to go deeper?

That's distinguished from a GZHAN NYUL. Okay. No.

How they want it to be. Okay. GZHAN BA'I ZHIG DRA.

Right? It's four attachments. So that's where...

GZHAN NYUL means a pen that has to come from its own side. Stronger than a RDZIN STANG GI YUL. It lies under a RDZIN STANG GI YUL.

Okay. So there's the RTOGS PA'I YUL, the object of perception, which is a pen. RDZIN STANG GI YUL, a pen that you perceive as coming from its own side.

Then GZHAN NYUL, which one do you really want it to be? You see? And those are three levels of a single object.

Okay, cool? Wooo.

[Speaker 2]
STANG ZAG GIS.

[Speaker 1]
GZHAN is G-Z-H? Z-H-E-N. Z-H-E-N.

GZHAN.

[Speaker 2]
GZHAN.

[Speaker 1]
Not G-Z-H-E-N?

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
That's other. Z-H-E-N means to have a strong attachment to something.

[Speaker 2]
Are there meditations on emptiness related to each of these levels?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I mean that's why we're talking about it.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. But you know, whether the teacher takes you from discussions to meditations, depends on the quality of the teacher. Some teachers just take you for years just to see the books, and they don't encourage you to try to feel it.

Okay. Anyway.

[Speaker 2]
The time has arrived.

[Speaker 1]
STANG ZAG KLEN GYI GYI DRIN DANG DGOS YIN PAR BSDOD LA ZHES DANG Okay, ZHES DANG means he just finished quoting the DONG DUNG CHEN MO of Khedruje, I believe it is. Yeah. And somehow that quotation is going to back up what he said in the last paragraph.

And you have to confirm that. And you have to go find the quotation. And I'm not sure we have this book in, which would be frustrating.

[Speaker 2]
But you have a whole bunch of them, right? Which one are we looking for now, the Khedruje book? I'm sure we can find it, yeah.

I think I have all, we have all his works, and I don't know if they're in the database or not.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, we should have all of those guys' works in, right?

[Speaker 2]
I'm 90% sure his books are not 100% in the database.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I don't think so.

[Speaker 2]
But they're on my desktop, I can find it. Can we have a separate folder in our translation?

[Speaker 1]
Well, we should just put them in, actually.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, we should just put them in. After this term is over, I will get the book out. Me and Adam will do it.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, it's not in the database. Yeah, which is a shame. Which is a crime.

Which is a crime.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, what we were talking about before the film started, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
So we'll do it. We could go into the Ankhelang, right? Where are we?

Hopefully it's in here, I think.

[Speaker 2]
It wasn't the last time we looked. Was it?

[Speaker 1]
That's the yearbook.

[Speaker 2]
I sent it to her separately. Here you go.

[Speaker 1]
That's Kerubche.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Okay.

[Speaker 2]
What's the WK number on that one?

[Speaker 1]
That's just an old uncatalog thing.

[Speaker 2]
Well, no, correct, so I can look it up. That's fine. Oh, you can do that, too.

Is it I1K2? I can theoretically find it for you right now, in an easier way.

[Speaker 1]
By the way, he has quoted it, exactly. Which, as we've seen, is kind of unusual, right? Okay.

And there's some sexy stuff just following it, that might be helpful to you. Okay. Which is why we go look it up.

Thank God for the database.

[Speaker 2]
What was the term that you searched for?

[Speaker 1]
DANG DZIN LHAN RGYAS KYI DZIN DANG It's up on the top of the window.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, look at that. Really? Yeah.

Up on the top of the window.

[Speaker 1]
So, remind me, what's DZIN LHAN RGYAS?

[Speaker 2]
How do you hold it?

[Speaker 1]
It's the, yeah, it's the... How do you want to call that? Aspect?

Something like that. RGYUGS DANG RGYUGS means to run, right? And RGYUGS DANG means, is it this, or is it this, or is it this?

How's the thumb? Difficult word to describe. Okay, we stopped here.

Whether we're able to do any between terms is, you know... I think I gotta work on... I'll try next week to work a little bit on your translations, okay?

It's probably easier for me if I get all your translations first. And then tear it up. Then I don't have to tear it up twice, and it saves me time.

[Speaker 2]
So, when would you like those?

[Speaker 1]
I don't know, give it to me... Just keep at the same pace, which would mean by Tuesday or something.

[Speaker 2]
By Tuesday to have it done.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, your first translation.

[Speaker 2]
Based on what we've been able to accomplish.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, and then I have a week before I have to travel, so... I don't know, let's see how much I can do. Isha, later we're leaving tomorrow, some of us, so are you going to tell us what we should do after this time?

Yeah, I didn't think about it yet.

[Speaker 2]
Should we take a ten minute break?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, I need to visit my uncle. Send our regards. RIGA VIMSHI NINDE GENPADI SANGYE SHINGDU NIKTE UWARGI DROKUN NAMDAK SHINGLA CHUKPAR SHOK DINAM GURU RABDHA MANALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI RIGA VIMSHI NINDE GENPADI SANGYE SHINGDU NIKTE UWARGI DROKUN NAMDAK SHINGLA CHUKPAR SHOK DINAM GURU RABDHA MANALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI