Классика Алмазного огранщика: Нижний Срединный путь — Анализ зависимости, занятие 15

[Speaker 1]
Satsi buddhi juksing methodram Vrila vinci indriyam pari Sanghe cindu binte luang gi Rokku nanda singa chupasho Nida urap namandakam niratayami Sanghe chudam sokhi chodnam la Jangchu badhu dharmi kyapsuchi Dakhi chunyam kipe sunam ki Nola penchir sanghe chupasho Sanghe chudam sokhi chodnam la Jangchu badhu dharmi kyapsuchi Dakhi chunyam kipe sunam ki Nola penchir sanghe chupasho Sanghe chudam sokhi chodnam la Jangchu badhu dharmi kyapsuchi Dakhi chunyam kipe sunam ki Nola penchir sanghe chupasho Chöpa Chöpa Pongvala Kikweng Konare yanlak chunyi kitok mal yulpe marikpa yinna Marikpa khuntak ingi phatao Wait wait wait, you're going between Go up or down, be a man Phatao

[Speaker 2]
Phatao?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, good, okay I think you're right I'm not sure Dey yinna Dey yinna Tongpang sugyurpe yanlak chunyi kitok mal yulpe marikpa yinngi pe chirpe One more Yanlak chunyi kitok mal yulpe marikpa yulla denpe Mpakpa metpe chirpe serna makyap Nice, very good Konare is same as what? Kachik nare Good Don't mistake it for kona Kona Which means only Okay, konare Yanlak chunyi kitok mal yulpe marikpa yinna If something is the marikpa Marikpa The misunderstanding Which is the Tokma Tokma and dambo same thing First What's the expression Tok is part of a triad

[Speaker 2]
Oh

[Speaker 1]
Famous text by Tsongkhapa Has a name Tokta Par Tokta Par Tok Tama Tama Beginning and end Tokta Par

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's called

[Speaker 1]
You should You should Start things with good You should start things with good motivation You could sustain things with good motivation You should end things with good motivation Tokta Par Beginning and middle We're just beginning, middle and end So anyway, tokma means the beginning of anything It doesn't necessarily mean first It can mean the beginning of anything Chunyi If something is the misunderstanding Which is the first Of the twelve links It must be a pure examination Of misunderstanding Come on, you're supposed to say That's not a pure examination No, kunta means not What's kunta mean without the R? The sign Certified No, as opposed to henge Oh

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, and this is misspelled

[Speaker 1]
But he's been doing it consistently Or somebody The editor

[Speaker 2]
Okay

[Speaker 1]
Alright, then it must be Something you learned It cannot be something you're born with According to him The misunderstanding Which causes the wheel to spin Must be something you learned in school Or you learned from your parents It cannot be something you're born with What's that mean about animals? Oh, they don't have They don't have If he's correct, they shouldn't have They shouldn't be in samsara Unless the ant creatures Are very good Could there be something about instinct that is I don't know Let's go see Because basically he's saying Because we all know You eliminate Is it true that Aryas Eliminate the first link? No New cases of the first link Yes Aryas eliminate new cases of the first link Do Aryas eliminate something that's learned Or something that's innate?

Learned Learned, who said that? I'll vote for you According to this one, right? Well, no, according to everybody The only kind of ignorance You don't have if you're an Arya You don't believe what you see But you still see it You're like, I don't believe that Sugung comes from Sugung But I still look like Sugung is coming from Sugung When Sugung stops looking like Sugung is coming from Sugung I'm an arhat And then I can never be angry again Because then I know it's me Then I go to the toilet And I yell at the mirror When something bad happens Alright? So it makes sense what he said If something acts as the first link It must be learned Because Aryas don't have the first link And the only thing Aryas give up Is learned things Okay?

It makes sense what he said And that makes sense because There's no Arya Okay? There's no Arya Who has new cases of the first link Okay? Got it?

Gyula Demba means in their mind Possess in their mind What he says is not bad Kanchigmas are not stupid Well, sometimes they are Geshe-la, what do you translate as new cases? I'm just reminding you that It's not the case that Aryas don't have the wheel They just don't spin new wheels But the old wheels are still going Yeah Yeah Until they get to be in our hands Well, it depends on what school you're in In this school it is In this school it is, yeah Thank you You mean in higher school? How are you going to get through the day?

Say again? So in higher school It is not this case? Well, no, I mean in the lower Higher school it is this case But in the lower school, what?

Hakche Myungde Yeah There's all different kinds of nirvana Yeah, there's nirvana where you still have a body There's nirvana where you don't have a body I see So if there's nirvana where you have a body You must still have the wheels I guess Alright Kanchigmany So he can By the way, what did we say? Makhyop Now that's a I wish he would say more But he didn't What did he just say, Makhyop? Just because Aryas

[Speaker 2]
Get rid of

[Speaker 1]
Don't have the first link And just because Aryas Have only given up Learned Ideas Doesn't mean the first link has to be Oh It's very Yeah, okay You'll understand it When you get home To Singapore You'll be on the plane You'll go, oh my goodness Now How we can say Makhyop And not clarify it I think his next rebirth Was as a politician in Washington Okay

[Speaker 2]
Oh boy, now we're seeing a bit of a

[Speaker 1]
Yep, that's it Well, no He's going to keep going Different Kanchig Same theme So we're going to get a little more help Okay, please read Kanchitnare Yanlakchuni Kittokmangyurpe Marikpah Kuntak Medpahtao Medpahtao Good Dela Lengke Kikyappe Cheppe Tongtun Dela Lengke Now I want to teach you something today Forever, forever Um When it's genitive K-Y-I Say it short, Ki When it's instrumental And the S is silent Make it longer so your audience knows which one Ki, Lengke Ki Okay, Lengke Ki Kiyappe Cheppe Kiyappe Cheppe Okay, keep going Tongtun Chemole Kuntakniruchan Ruchan Chen Korwar Chingche Kitawamirung Sesumpe Okay, good So here's two Cha's, get used to it Cha is the hardest one to distinguish between first column and second column Say Cha

[Speaker 2]
Cha

[Speaker 1]
Cha Cha Cha Cha You know in Sanskrit how we have Long A Short A Shastra Shastra A little bit in Tibetan the first column and the second column have the same difference Listen, Cha Cha See, it's almost like an A and an A So that'll help you make the correct sound It's supposed to be unaspirated but it's just less aspirated Cha And it's important Ching means and Ching means to tie someone up Okay, maybe they're related actually, I never thought of that Okay, here we go yin la chen ni hitong mo gyur pen marikpe kun ta me a tha me a tha, sorry, you gotta go down He's being sarcastic Isn't it the case that there is no first link which is learned at school You know, are you telling me isn't it the case isn't it true that there's no first link of the wheel which you learn at school or from your parents which is not important He says, isn't this the case isn't it true that all cases of the first link are in, you're born with it all of them Then we say, well, why do you say that? And he says because all cases of the first link are shen kye shen kye means you're born with it It comes inside you when you're born Then we say ta ma du it's not true that it's all inborn Who said that?

He says, well, tong tun chen mo Tong tun chen mo is this great book by Peter Jay that I would love to translate The next good translator you know, if you guys want to start at five in the morning we should do this book This book is unbelievable It's a huge book on how to meditate on emptiness and it's brilliant It's brilliant And I've been using it a lot lately You know, we didn't have an input Somehow it didn't get input It was in the uncanny And I just, like, wow Every time I look for something, it hits that file So

[Speaker 2]
What's the English name?

[Speaker 1]
You can say, what do we call it? A dose of emptiness No, don't give me this bad I thought that's what you called it An interlude Which is the same tun as somebody else in this room had Word? No You've had a lot of tuns You've had, you're in your second tun

[Speaker 2]
It's a lunatic It's a lunatic Session

[Speaker 1]
So this session It's misspelled Mak tun means harmony So this author has misspelled the word session K.Dubje's book is called A Short Session on Emptiness And it's going to be a thousand pages in time It's called a little Somebody translate a dose of emptiness, not bad Don't matter We call it an interlude A moment of emptiness Okay, so it's misspelled What is it, tun? And so is tun misspelled So if you're going to misspell part of the title you should misspell the whole title

[Speaker 2]
Good to know

[Speaker 1]
Now be careful because there may be some reason Okay, I don't I don't know, maybe it's a bad editor in the 16th century, we don't know Okay, if we can get the first carving ever done, we will know Anyway, there's this tradition as I said, in our monastery that he was getting old and he couldn't see and he would write stuff and then people would miscopy it That's sort of how we Excuse me Okay, chemo is spelled correctly Okay, from I probably just made a going to hell karma Okay, so from the great book, this is the great book on the small the great book on the small section on emptiness And apparently it's a genre Apparently there's been several books by the same name so this is called the great book Okay, there's been a couple of Dongtons And it says Kuntang ni lu chen korwa jingwa jiru dzangwa mi rung It's not appropriate or it's not correct to say that the learned version Okay, is the root It's not correct mi rung that the learned version misspelled Kuntang is the root that handcuffs you to some people to samsara Lu chen is the same as sim chen

[Speaker 2]
It means body havers

[Speaker 1]
Bodhi? People have bodies It means people But in Buddhism, people means animals also Same word So, we say don't kill people it means animals also Okay It also implies non-Buddhist Yeah, he's correct It also implies non-Buddha So actually, Buddhists have bodies but we don't call them body holders Okay, so anyway He says He just said, who? Ketujan Ketujan just said it's not correct to say that the learned version is the one that binds you to samsara So that should mean that the first link in the wheel of life cannot be a learned one So it sounds like Ketujan saying that It cannot be learned one It's incorrect, mi rung to say learned one is the root of what binds you to samsara samsara samsara Okay Okay Okay Now, this chair is Ketujan talking Okay I'm sorry No, sorry, it's the other guy talking What I said is true because Ketujan said that This chair is Ketujan Ketujan said that And we say, well, if you do say that So really, sarna is us talking If you say that Okay Kin me te How do you say no problem in Tibetan? Kin min du Kin min du We had duk duk in Dr. Yu's text Hang around Yeah, the guy was staying, staying in the doorway But in modern Tibetan duk means is And kin min du means no problem Okay And in India or Tibet when they say no problem, you usually have a problem Well, I guess around the world No problem I don't know Okay, kin min du Oh, that's no problem Okay The point, this dun yin means the meaning of what Ketujan is not, said is not You took it out of context Okay, you took it out of context It's true he said that But that's not what he meant So dun yin means So dun yin means what he really meant Okay What he really meant was And then there's a whole sentence What he really meant was marepa kun tak te This learned kind of misunderstanding Okay is inappropriate to say it's the root which binds you to samsara for people who never went to school For people who don't have learned Yeah Yeah If someone never learned anything Ketujan is in the middle of a discussion about dup te lo ma gyur wa Okay dup te lo gyur ma gyur ki dup te lo ma gyur means their mind has not been changed by schools of thought Their mind has not been influenced Oh Okay dup te lo

[Speaker 2]
gyur ki

[Speaker 1]
So we have to check a carving but I believe it's

[Speaker 2]
ma gyur

[Speaker 1]
He said gyur my gyur but I think somebody has messed it up This is common to say dup te lo ma gyur Can you say that what binds people to samsara who never went to school is a learned misunderstanding Can you say that?

I'll say it again Can you say that learned misunderstanding that they learned in school is the problem for people who never went to school He's in the middle of that discussion Okay Don't quote him out of context Go check the context He was already talking about people who never went to school Like ants Okay Okay, got it? He didn't mean that it was wrong mi run to say that anyone had a learned misunderstanding He just meant he was already talking about people who couldn't go to school like ants and birds and fish and you know people in America nowadays Okay Okay And I believe we have to check that When you say gyur ma gyur it would mean people who either did or didn't and it's not correct here It doesn't fit the context So I would say it's probably

[Speaker 2]
lo ma gyur

[Speaker 1]
Well I would have to correct it to lo ma gyur check check check Otherwise the sentence doesn't make any sense Okay Well now it seems that this reading is correct In which case

[Speaker 2]
Okay So it is either

[Speaker 1]
Yeah but it's not comfortable for me Anyway dendre shung de this kind of scripture this kind of scripture is a is a scripture shung this kind of text part of the text is a part of the text which is mun dzin and we had it at Dr. Wu's house We had rang mun de du pa Yeah good Mun means face rang mun de du pa means exist this way That's the synonym for existence that we use the most in DCI It comes from its own sign rang mun de du pa Then mun dzin means to take the face which means to identify and it's a good idiom mun dzin It means to hold on to the face mun dzin So this is this selection of text we can I say here shung is a selection of text where we are identifying the misunderstanding which functions che to bind us to samsara all beings which functions to bind Now he added the word kun which functions to bind all beings to samsara whether or not their mind has been influenced by

[Speaker 2]
schools of philosophy

[Speaker 1]
It's still uncomfortable Does the learned tendency always refer to people who study philosophy or I thought it would just be humans whose parents said look this is a stone We would say dupta whatever your parents told you we would say school of philosophy So science is a dupta and Christianity is a dupta and American culture is a dupta It's a school of philosophy You think it's not if you're born into it but go to another country and look back at your own country and you see oh well the more you travel the more you start to realize things are different You were born with you have cultural baggage and you don't know until you travel a lot Not everybody thinks that watermelon juice is wrong to drink in the winter or not everybody thinks that cold water is going to kill you You see what I mean? Not everybody thinks that coffee is a good thing to drink Like America Americans think that Good for your mind Maybe it makes you nervous that you can't sleep well Anyway, that's a selection where Ketavj is talking about both kinds of people But I would have felt more comfortable if it had said that We could I mean you know since we have a database What?

We could go see what he said Do you want to go there? I think we better go there So let's go there I should have looked it up for you but I think I haven't got to your text yet So I'm going to say Drupke Lohgyur whose mind has been influenced by a school of thinking and instead of going to every text in the whole universe I'm just going to restrict it to Ketavj's book So we go to Sumbhum and inside Sumbhum which which subject will it be? Which school of philosophy?

Ketavj Tomten Chamu is professor there So I'm going to assume Well, it's going to be in Umar to start with

[Speaker 2]
Are you just trying to find Oh, again

[Speaker 1]
I don't think that book is in Umar I think I put it in here even though you didn't give it to me I did give it to you the other day I gave you a folder that has all of Ketavj's books Oh yeah, ok Oh, let's go there He did give me a folder of all of Ketavj's books Let's go there, that's even better It's here, Yubse Ketavj Ok Let's go search all of Ketavj's books Ok, here we go Oh, one match Just one match?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah It's not Lomagj

[Speaker 1]
That's not too much help I'm going to look for something else

[Speaker 2]
Lomagj

[Speaker 1]
He's talking about this concept, but I'm not sure this is the right place Ketavj Ketavj Take people who have not been influenced by a cultural belief or then they must have been influenced because Ketavj Ketavj This is some kind of thing Ok It means it's him, Debu and Shauja But it's complicated I don't want to go there Let's see if he talks about Marikpa, misunderstanding near Kuntak, or sometimes you should search for the misspelling. It's a popular misspelling, and we'll take the S off, which is also a popular misspelling. And then we'll make it a proximity search.

Give me misunderstanding pretty close to, let's say three lines. Give me misunderstanding pretty close to learned. Wow, that's pretty weird.

How about growing senkei? How about increasing proximity? You sure Tongtong Chen was in there?

It is. Well, I gave you a more updated version of this on your flash drive. Remember I kept trying to give it to you?

And I don't know where you put that version. Anyway, we don't have it in here. It's on the Dropbox.

Okay, I'm going to do something desperate. I've been studying this text. And so I have a copy.

Input copy. Oh man, other version. In the CRM Dropbox, there's a KJJ folder that has it for sure.

Okay, this is the KJJ. By the way, here's the correct title of it. Why is this doing this?

Here's the correct title of it. It's called Opening the Eyes of the Fortunate. Tongtong Chen was a nickname for it.

Kelsang Mikje. Kelsang Mikje. Fortunate people.

People have enough good karma. Mik Nje. Nje means to open.

Without the Nje, it means to do. Now, here's the book that he's supposed to be talking about. Let's go see if it has any, I don't know, Kuntaks in it.

I doubt it. Doesn't have one. Okay.

How about misspelled? That's a different one. Nope.

How about Senke? Senke is never spelled another way. I'm going to misshorten it.

Here we go. Drondok la kunta dan senge nyi yu na. Drondok.

The tendency to think something is there which is not there, which means a husband who's coming from his own side. Okay. Which is called overrating.

Okay. That tendency comes in two flavors. Kuntak and senge.

Learned and inherent. And then he talks about who believes it. Probably they're talking about this.

Okay. Probably they're talking about this discussion. Let's see if it's somewhere else.

This is misunderstanding about the nature of space. Now, here's a nice one. He's talking about ants.

Okay. Gopur means ants. Okay.

Okay. So, I tend to think maybe we're in this section. This is not the opposite of the inborn tendency to see things as self-existent.

Okay. Now he's talking. Here we go.

Le chen. Misspelled. Okay.

What is it supposed to be? Le chen. Yeah, nice.

So, we're getting close, maybe. Le chen korwa chen chepay tsawa ma yinpe chenwa. That cannot be the thing.

That cannot be the root which binds you to samsara. What? De ni drub te ma we.

Takpe tummo ma yinpe jinpe yinpe. The learned. Which is imputed by people who've learned cultural assumptions.

Okay. So, this must be where... You can make a note to yourself.

You know, this discussion happens at Folio 45B. Okay. So, if you want to look really smart to people, you can say that.

They're talking about the discussion there. Okay. Anyway.

Okay. That's enough. We don't have to beat that.

Okay. Anyway. But if you want to make a nice footnote, you can say, the discussion seems to be at that place.

Okay. Okay. Konane.

Okay. Korwa chen chepay tsawa ma yinpe yinpe. If misunderstanding is acting as the root of samsara, okay, kye gyela dempa pa me gomag pa, then isn't it the case that there is no Arya who has it in their mind?

Okay. If something is the kind of misunderstanding which spins the wheel, then isn't it true that no Arya has it in their mind? Why?

Why? Because if something is the first of the twelve links, there is no Arya who has it in their mind.

[Speaker 2]
He gave us the reason.

[Speaker 1]
Now, this is weird. He's saying... This is...

Now the question here, in these two lines, is, is it yin kep nyam, to say what's the root of samsara and what's the first link? Are they synonyms? If you have one, do you always have the other?

Can you not have one and have the other? Should be, right? You tell me.

He's... We've seen... He says they are the same, which means we don't think so.

Yeah. Apparently there's some exception, okay? Because apparently...

There seems to be a difference between an Arya who doesn't have the first link in their mind and an Arya who doesn't have the root of samsara in their mind. Okay, okay. All right.

There seems to be a difference, okay? Then... Okay, if you say that, marigpa chud chen, okay, then it must be true that an Arya doesn't have it.

All kinds of misunderstanding. According to you, if because they don't have the first link, they don't have the root of samsara, then you must be saying they don't have any misunderstanding, which means that we say any misunderstanding is the root of samsara. So, when you say root of samsara, it's more general, okay?

It's more general, okay, than the first link, okay? So, we're saying there's kinds of roots of samsara that are not the first link. Yeah, okay?

We're saying they're not the same thing. Or we're trying to cause trouble, which is possible, all right? Then he's like, okay, show me something which is the root of samsara that's not the first link.

You're going to show me that? And we say, yeah, sure.

[Speaker 2]
Marigpa chud chen.

[Speaker 1]
Take misunderstanding. It is the root of samsara, okay? I guess.

I guess that's where it's going. Okay, my computer stopped working. No, never mind.

Yesterday, anyway, I'm not going to complain anymore. The keys aren't working. Some of the keys don't work, which is kind of inconvenient.

Marigpe wangi le sap. Somebody translate that for me. That's the power of the, sorry, the impure karma that's created by the power of ignorance of the collection of impure karma.

Yeah, karma is collected. Sap. Give me a related word.

Tsog. Tsog. Yeah, tsog.

Like, let's have a tsog today. Tsog, as a tantric ritual, means you collect all the food and stuff together. All the offerings together.

Okay, tsog. Sap. So, it's by, through the power, wangi, of misunderstanding, that we collect karma.

And, it's through that karma, it's by the power of that karma, le biyi wangi, that we take rebirth in samsara, in the wheel, in the cycle. Okay. Yirmey chi sena makhyat.

Okay. Not necessarily so. Okay.

Not necessarily so. Oh. I...

So, he's not saying that, like, ariyas keep falling in samsara again and again because of the power of previous ignorance or something? He says, if you agree... Now, we got to see where the duna is, okay?

It's like a tower duna, right? If you agree, well, what do you agree to? He said something sarcastic.

He said something sarcastic. Okay, what? If something is the misunderstanding, which is the root of samsara, then there cannot be an ariya who has it.

Then we say, well, let's take general misunderstanding. Dantel, are you telling me no ariya in the world has it? Right.

General misunderstanding. Right, right, right.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Which could include janki. Yeah. Yeah.

Which could include imborn. Are you telling me no ariya has it? Why?

Well, because it is the root of samsara. Okay? So, when you say root of samsara, you're talking about both...

Could talk of janki.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Imborn and learned. Okay? So, up here he said, if something is the root of samsara, it must be true that no ariya has it in their mind.

Yeah. But what about janki? Yeah, that's what I thought it was.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
It's kind of like we're going there. Okay. But we didn't even go there.

We said general, general misunderstanding. Okay? Are you telling me no ariya has it?

Why? Because it is the root of samsara. Okay?

So, you've got to remember that when you translate this. Here it just says, are you telling me that? Because it is.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Speaker 1]
He doesn't say what. Are you telling me that? Because it is that.

And then you have to help your reader out. You have to give your reader some help. Okay?

Let's say it again. He said, if a misunderstanding is the root of samsara, then it cannot be something which an ariya has in their mind. And we said, well, let's take general misunderstanding.

Okay? Are you telling me an ariya doesn't have it in their mind? And he said, why do you say that?

And we said, well, because it's the root of samsara. Right. Okay?

Okay. And then, between here, he has to say, I disagree that it's the root of samsara. General misunderstanding is the root of samsara.

He said, tamad. Uh-huh. Okay.

Then we say, marubi wangi le, come on. Everybody knows you collect karma because you have misunderstanding. And everybody knows that you're born into this cycle.

Samsara, through that karma. You have it here.

[Speaker 2]
But you say that, it's a makhyap.

[Speaker 1]
Makhyap. That's not necessary. That is a general description of misunderstanding.

But, it's not necessarily the case that an ariya doesn't have it. Okay? Does an ariya have the root of samsara in their mind?

Yeah. They have a thing which generally is described as the root of samsara. But technically, it's not.

Okay? It's not the first link.

[Speaker 2]
Doesn't it mean that even though we get rid of the first link, we didn't totally clean the root of samsara? If that's true.

[Speaker 1]
Well, yeah, you might say that. But, yeah, I would say, just because you get rid of the first link doesn't mean that you get rid of what we generally say is the root of samsara.

[Speaker 2]
How's that?

[Speaker 1]
You know, why am I suffering? Because you don't understand your husband. Why am I suffering?

Because you don't understand your husband, where your husband's coming from. And you get angry. When he calls you stupid, you say, no, you're stupid.

And then you plant another seed, and you start this meal. I think the last term, we have a discussion about the root of samsara is the one that is the cause of the first link. But the root of that root is not the cause of the first link.

Could they be related? It could be. It could be.

I will sit on it for a while. You sit on it for a while. We say, matryap, I think matryap here means not necessarily, which means just because in general, we say that misunderstanding causes you to take rebirth, doesn't mean that all forms of misunderstanding are the first link.

Okay? Okay. I believe that's where he's going.

Dhimmi nirsang means this probably means you can't agree that he doesn't have it in his mind. You cannot agree. What?

That he doesn't have any misunderstanding in his mind. He still has some. He still definitely has linkages.

linkages, inborn kindness. Let's move on. You're going to tell us in your next lecture what's the story here.

In buddha, buddha, or whatever. I don't know. Okay, Khaji.

Sankhya-papa-la-mi-la-jigta-yobar Tell or tell? Now, is it sarcastic or not? The statement is Buddha, Aryas who are buddhas.

Okay, sometimes you can say that. Is Buddha an Arya?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, okay. So, Aryas who are buddhas. Aryas who are totally enlightened.

I'm sorry. Can you have... Now, this is an interesting question.

What's jigta? The... The first link.

Perishable connection. Destruction view. Yeah, destruction view.

Destruction view. So, we know it has to be aimed at... Me or mine.

Me or mine. Yeah. Now, can a buddha have it?

[Speaker 2]
Can a what?

[Speaker 1]
No. The first link of the wheel is not general misunderstanding. It's a special kind of misunderstanding which is for Sugung is aimed at Sugung or Sugung's.

Okay? That's called jigta. Okay?

Destruction view. So, the first link of the wheel, the thing that spins the wheel has to be aimed at me. Geshe Michael's has to be aimed at Michael's.

Sugung's has to be aimed at Sugung. So, in theory, is it possible for a buddha to have jigta? No.

It shouldn't be. No. Now, is it possible to have jigta towards a buddha?

Sure. On you. Be careful.

He's...

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay.

[Speaker 1]
He's closer. My buddha. Why?

The person having it would have to be a buddha.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay.

[Speaker 1]
Because it's always aimed at me or mine. Got it? Can you have jigta which is aimed at a buddha?

No. Why? Because it's always aimed at me or mine.

So, the person having it would have to be a buddha. And buddhas can't have it. Okay?

It's a cute point. But now, is it going to go so easily? I don't think so.

This would be sarcastic, right? Now, he says there does exist a jigta focused on a buddha. This is a verb.

Mikpa is focused on. Okay? The...

By the way, Yidratta, there must exist a jigta which is aimed at a buddha. An Arya who's a buddha. Okay?

Why? Because seeing a buddha as me, when a buddha appears as me, okay? A buddha appearing as me.

Okay? And then, I'll say it this way. There does exist a wrong idea.

No S. No S. Okay?

There does exist a wrong idea where a buddha appears to be me. There does exist a wrong idea where a buddha appears to be me and you take it to be substantial in the sense of self-standing, which is Utpala's famous word. Okay?

We'll say it again. He says there must exist a destruction view which is aimed at a buddha. And we're like, why?

And we say, because there does exist a view which, where a buddha appears to be me, appears as me, and then we take it to be substantial. Well, what kind of substantial? I'm talking about that one where they are self-standing.

[Speaker 2]
Okay?

[Speaker 1]
Now, is that possible?

[Speaker 2]
No.

[Speaker 1]
I would say no.

[Speaker 2]
I would say no.

[Speaker 1]
There's no such thing as a state of mind, even a weird state of mind, topa with no S, okay? There's no such thing as an idea where you look at a buddha, it appears to be me, and then you think it's self-standing. No such thing.

By the way, that's the self-standing in your text that refers to two consciousnesses. End-of-the-line consciousness. What are they?

Awareness as you thought. Yeah, or the storehouse consciousness. Those are self-standing.

Those are the end-of-the-line. Those are where the buck stops here. They don't depend on other states of mind.

They are the core of the self. Then we say, there does exist the possibility that a buddha appears to be me, and then you think that about the two states of mind. Okay, in your school, according to your school.

[Speaker 2]
My school?

[Speaker 1]
No, the school you're describing. And then we say, mā khyapa. Now, whenever we say mā khyapa, what are we saying about the reason negative?

Are we saying it's true or it's false?

[Speaker 2]
We accept the reason.

[Speaker 1]
No, when you say mā khyapa, he's correct. I mean, sometimes. Okay?

When we say, not necessarily so, when we say, not necessarily so, it means we do accept the reason, but we don't accept that it proves what the guy's trying to prove. Okay? We should go to the Japanese restaurant, because I like Japanese food.

[Speaker 2]
That's true.

[Speaker 1]
I know. I agree with the reason. I know you like Japanese food, but I don't agree with the khyapa.

I don't agree that if you like Japanese food, you should go to a Japanese restaurant. Okay? So, when you say mā khyapa, it means, you're not, you don't say bad reason.

You just say, not necessarily so. You don't say the reason's not true. You're saying it's not necessarily so.

Okay? When you say mā khyapa, it means you chose not to give the first possible answer, which is? Dharma.

You didn't say, your reason is wrong, which means, you don't like Japanese food. He does like Japanese food, but that doesn't prove we should go to the Japanese restaurant. I'm just giving you all these weapons you can use.

Okay? I agree you like Japanese food, but Geshe-la said, mā khyapa. It means, just because the reason is true, doesn't mean the conclusion is true.

Okay? Got it? So here, we said mā khyapa, which implies that we accept partially their reason.

We accept the possibility of something, of a Buddha appearing as me, and you think about their consciousness, that it's the end of the line, that it can stand on its own. Now, hopefully, there's more information. Can I just move on to another topic?

Like, we want, we want, we want, Chöchen, we want, give me this state of mind, you know, show me who has this. Maybe it's someone who thinks they're Napoleon, and...

[Speaker 2]
There's this one confused native, which can be as naive as my shoes, or my leg, or my mind.

[Speaker 1]
And what is that kachigin from? Oh, kachiginare. Same.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, same thing.

[Speaker 1]
Same thing.

[Speaker 2]
Come on, you can't leave us here. What if I die in the car? That's wild, technically.

[Speaker 1]
If I'm doing that, then just tell me We're laying information. Okay, I'll give you the punchline, okay? You have, I'll give you the punchline, and you tell me if you get it.

[Speaker 2]
You want to guess if I get it?

[Speaker 1]
This, we are appearing as I. What if you say appearing as a me? As a me?

Yeah. What if you say a?

[Speaker 2]
Uh, does that fix anything? Now we're back to the problem of a Buddha.

[Speaker 1]
Is it possible that there's a case where a Buddha appearing as a me is taken to be self-existent? No. It's not according to the Diamond Cutter Sutra.

I'll say it again. Think more carefully. Is there ever a case where a Buddha who appears as a me can be considered self-existent?

I'm just saying this ngar you have to translate as a me.

[Speaker 2]
I hear you, yeah. I think we got that part.

[Speaker 1]
For me, for me, this story is finished. For me, this story is over. Is it, is it, like, you're talking shurpa, like, unexamined?

Does the, does a Buddha appear to a Buddha as a me? Sure.

[Speaker 2]
But not as self-existent.

[Speaker 1]
So a Buddha who appears to a Buddha as a me can be taken by another person to be self-standing.

[Speaker 2]
But it's not, he's still not mine.

[Speaker 1]
But there's parts.

[Speaker 2]
He'd have to be, he'd have to be the parts of the person who's seeing him on. Right.

[Speaker 1]
It's the same logic that we use.

[Speaker 2]
We just specifically say last time we met with Sugeng that he couldn't see someone else's me and apologize.

[Speaker 1]
Oh, okay. Well, he's misinterpreting the word, you know, ngadangayatimba.

[Speaker 2]
Me and mine.

[Speaker 1]
Which is taken to be a me. He said a me. He thinks it gets him out of it.

Somebody considers it I.

[Speaker 2]
It seems like it's only you.

[Speaker 1]
In fact, it's being considered I right now. Just not by the guy who misunderstands it. It seems like the same problem we were running into right before.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's where he's going. I think so.

Because his punchline is, okay, you ready? Well, he just, his thing, I'll say it quickly and then we'll work on it next time. Sangyipapa calls that to nangme.

There is a case where a Buddha appears to be a person.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And then we take him to be self-standing.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Why? Because there does exist a holding to the self-existence of a person which is aimed at a Buddha.

[Speaker 2]
Sure. Okay. By someone else's basis.

[Speaker 1]
Then our position, our Sedona School position is that just because you can hold a Buddha to be self-existent and just because that Buddha takes it to be me doesn't mean you're holding to me as self-existent.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Not, right.

[Speaker 1]
You can hold to a me as being self-existent but not hold to me as being self-existent. Yeah. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
That would be our position. Yeah. What's your text that we specifically wrote?

[Speaker 1]
And the non-Buddhist guy is saying, look, when you take a Buddha to be self-existent, you're taking a me to be self-existent. And we say, yeah, but a me is not the same as me. You know.

A me is his me. That's not my me. Okay.

Got it. You all right? You all right?

Now unfortunately in Tibetan there's no and in Sanskrit there's no a. It's me. So, you have to work backwards.

You have to miss, you have to frame the misstatement from what he's concluding wrongly. Right. Okay.

Cool. Don't worry about it. Okay.

If you understood, if you understood everything, you wouldn't be here. You'd say, I don't have to go to Stendhana. Sasi.

Buddhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Dukkhi, Thank you for coming all this way to be beat up. By the way, this is one of the reasons why in the yikchas, in the monastic textbooks, you often see this seemingly superfluous rangyindengi gaksa, the person who has it in their mind. We had it yesterday, you know.

Oftentimes they'll repeat, who has it in their own mind, to eliminate this possibility, where you're looking at a me, yeah, someone else's me. So oftentimes, in the beginning of a definition, they'll say rangyindengi gaksa. We had it here, watch.

See, right here. You see the name? Rangyindengi gaksa.

Yeah, for the person who has it in their own mind. For the person who has it in their own mind, okay? So it's just, it seemed superfluous at the time, but now it becomes more important.

This is not a me who somebody, the person had in his own mind. It's a me that somebody else was looking at. Okay?

So just store that in your mind somewhere. And I know some competent Tibetan scholars who thought that the yuktas were ridiculous. Sure.

Because why say in your mind?

[Speaker 2]
Aren't there other texts that kind of make a Buddha's me part of mine, because anything that's outside of me is part of my first skanda?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah, there are. That stems from a debate about the first skanda.

[Speaker 2]
Some lower middle way?

[Speaker 1]
Well, no. I mean, you can see Buddha texts which say, there's a debate, you know. When you say first skanda, body, physical form, it includes for me the coffee cup.

[Speaker 2]
And a Buddha's me also? No.

[Speaker 1]
Well, I'll tell you a basic problem. In the Abhidharmakosha, the first chapter is devoted to how to divide the world. And there's three possibilities.

One, five heaps. Two, the twelve ayatana, the twelve doors of sense. Or the eighteen, what we call categories.

There's three ways to divide the world. Unfortunately, the first one only applies to people. And the second two apply to the whole world.

So some scholars have said, therefore, the first skanda in the first division should be the whole world. My form must include the coffee cup in front of me. That's all.

They say otherwise it would be an unbalanced division. But that's not the subject of this talk.