Углублённый курс ACI 01 — Учения будущего Будды: «Уттаратантра» Майтреи (2003, Аризона), занятие 5

[Говорящий 1]
Today we're supposed to do the third of the seven diamond-like visions. What would that involve? So, yeah, Gana.

Meaning Sangha. Meaning the Sangha Jewel. Sangha Jewel.

And as you know, that mostly involves people who have seen emptiness directly. And in this particular presentation, the state of mind, certain qualities of the mind of a person who has seen emptiness directly are considered the Sangha Jewel. And then maybe all the people who have seen emptiness are considered the nominal Sangha Jewel.

So the real Sangha Jewel is their state of mind and their attainments. And then the nominal Sangha Jewel is the people who have seen emptiness directly. And then we had another presentation from the Abhisamankar in the second course, I think it is, that said the real Sangha was people who have seen emptiness directly, and the nominal Sangha is people who wear robes.

So now you're seeing a deeper presentation. We're just going deeper and deeper. That's the idea of an in-depth course, right?

And I started out making the reading like 24 hours ago, and I went through it and I said, you know, there's eight qualities that they have, very similar to the Buddha Jewel and the Dharma Jewel that we went through. And the eight qualities weren't explained very well anywhere, and even Gyaltsabje doesn't explain them much. So I kind of got tired of trying to squeeze a reading out of that.

And there's another famous, really famous quotation that we did all the time in the monastery about the Jewel of the Sangha from Uttaratantra, from this text. It comes pretty much further down in the first chapter. But it is talking about the Sangha Jewel, and to me it's one of the most exciting quotations in the whole Uttaratantra.

And there's a big reading you could design around that, because everybody since then has debated this quotation. Everybody. So we'll get from 350 AD up to about 1700s or 1800s.

We'll get a whole string of debates. So I thought what you might find fun was what I mentioned previously, that sometimes it's really useful to just follow the debates back into history, in the monasteries, the monastic textbooks. So the big three monasteries, it's called Densasum.

Say Densasum. Densasum. Densa means like, it's asana, meaning seat of higher learning.

And sum means the three biggies. And that's Sara, Ganden, and Debum. And their textbook writers in the last 500 years have struggled with this quotation that I'm going to write for you from the Uttaratantra.

And I thought it would just be fun to see how they struggled through the centuries. So I think I have about 10 different textbook writers in the reading. And all the great ones from all the great monasteries.

And then I thought I'd write the whole quotation up here first, because it's so famous. And I urge you to memorize it. It's on your homework.

It's on your quiz. Let's see here. It disappeared.

And what's kind of interesting to me is, I memorized it a certain way in the debate ground. And then when I was searching for it in the database, I couldn't find it in sermon textbooks. And then I started to look for pieces of it.

And then I realized that over the centuries the quotation has evolved. And best you know from like, even Holy Lama Ken Rinpoche, he'll be in a class, he'll have a quotation that in the back of his mind that he didn't debate for 47 years. And then he'll look through like 14 scriptures and he'll say, oh forget it, it's something like this.

And then somebody writes that down in his book, and then other people copy it out of Ken Rinpoche's book, and then it becomes mushed around. So you'll see it in the reading. This quotation has been inverted in different ways.

Which makes me want to say that you guys have to be careful. As you record these teachings. Like John Stilwell wrote me an email, he said, that's cool that you guys are doing in-depth sutra courses in Arizona.

Who's going to, who's going to, what do you call it? What do you say? Archive them.

Yeah, who's going to archive them? I mean, let's get that straight. Because we still have a thousand tapes in God's store that we haven't archived yet.

And so he was very concerned that who's going to be doing the archiving, and who's going to be sending out those courses, and who's going to make sure that the content is still, is not, the quotations aren't all messed up in 300 years. You see what I mean? So you'll see in the readings how the quotation evolved over the 300 years.

And it's very, sorry, over 1600 years. Anyway, here it is. And Eliela, I finished the homework about three minutes ago.

And I don't know if there's any way you could print it out by, or afterwards since people are all staying for the stuffing party. Is there a stuffing party? Thank you.

Okay. And there's a beautiful Sanskrit equivalent, and you'll have it in your next Sanskrit class, which is early August, I guess. And it's really beautiful.

If you get a chance, you should do the Sanskrit of this verse especially. Ready? Ready?

Not quite, but anyway. BAG PA'I CI DANG NA BA DANG DGA' BA'I SDUG BSNGAL TSE NAS SPANG BAG PA'I means Winston, huh? Yeah, Arya's, but BAG PA'I By Arya's.

By Arya's, okay. Arya's. Arya in Sanskrit.

Arya. CI BA Number four in the prison yesterday. Yeah.

You might notice some other ones here. And NA BA SKAD GANG NA CI We had it yesterday. NA BA Sickness.

You've had GNAS in the last homework. GNAS which means sickness also. So you put a DA on it, it means sickness also.

Death, sickness, and DANG. DGA' BA Old age. Aging.

There's this big debate in the monastery. If you say old age, you get in trouble. Oh, so babies don't have DGA' BA'I SDUG BSNGAL?

So babies don't have the suffering of aging? And then you get in this big thing. DGA' BA'I SDUG BSNGAL Suffering.

TSE NAS means RTZA BA NAS It's the same thing, RTZA BA NAS From the root. TSE NAS means from the root. SPANG means they have eliminated it.

Eliminated. Got rid of it. Why didn't he say RTZA BA NAS, Christy?

[Говорящий 2]
He's trying to know.

[Говорящий 1]
Yeah, he'd blow his mind. He'd blow his meter. He'd have an extra beat in there.

Hear it. DGA' BA'I SDUG BSNGAL RTZA BA NAS SPANG It would ruin the meter. So he threw in TSE which is pretty rare, but it means the same thing.

It's MULAD from the root. MULAM So what this is saying is that anybody who has seen emptiness directly anybody who has seen emptiness directly has eliminated death the sufferings of death illness and old age has eliminated. So here we go.

BYANG SEMS MTHONG LAM PAR SPYOD CHEN MTHONG LAM PAR SPYOD MED LAM PAR SPYOD CHEN That's Elila, okay? Take a person who just achieved the first part of the path of seeing. They're in the direct perception of emptiness called the uninterrupted level, right?

The uninterrupted path. PHYI BA DANG SNGA BA DANG DGA' BA Death, sickness, and old age. TSE NAS PA MA THAG So they've gotten rid of it, right?

[Говорящий 2]
Yes.

[Говорящий 1]
So, PHYI BA MA THAG So they're not going to die, right?

[Говорящий 2]
Um, not necessarily.

[Говорящий 1]
So, TSE NAS PA MA THAG So they haven't eliminated it from its root. They've just eliminated PHYAG RGYEN NAS SPAM PA'I YIN CHOS There's just some cases they've eliminated it. If you pour the poison on the root it's going to take a while to die.

PHYAG RGYEN NAS SPAM PA'I YIN CHOS So, PHYI BA MA THAG So they haven't eliminated death. Then it's still going to die. PHYI BA DANG SNGA BA DANG DGA' BA Even though, this is Geshe Tuddarenji, right?

PHYI BA DANG SNGA BA DANG DGA' BA PHYI BA MA THAG So, even though they've eliminated death from its root, they haven't eliminated death, right?

[Говорящий 2]
Not immediately, but eventually.

[Говорящий 1]
Eventually, but, but, but, but. Yes, they have. They have.

Duh. I don't know. We'll see.

Okay. It's a very big debate. It's a huge debate.

Okay. Anyway, we're going. Those are the four sufferings, right?

We had them in the prison yesterday. Keganachi. Say Keganachi.

You know, people pick on me for many things, but, but one of the things they, one of the smaller things they pick on me is, why do you keep bringing up this death thing, you know? I mean, Buddhism is just to learn to be relaxed. Buddhism is learn to meditate.

Buddhism is learn to watch your breath, you know? Buddhism is learn to be friendly, you know? Buddhism is blah, blah, blah.

And I keep saying, no, no, the whole thing is about dying. The whole thing is about changing your body into an angel's body, you know? The whole thing is that.

And here's another verse to support me. Now, it's just an accident that it came up, but, but, you know, that's what Buddhism's all about. I just can't stand all the other ones.

I mean, in certain places, on certain occasions, to certain groups, maybe, you would talk about getting calm. But I was sitting in the prison yesterday, and there's 30, like, hardcore khans were in the high-secure, max-security one. And they're staring at me, and I've got to say something funny, fast, and interesting, you know?

And I know they're uptight all the time, and I know they want to hear about meditation, but I just went straight to death, you know? I just can't do anything else. I think deep down inside, everyone's interested in that, actually.

You know, being calm, you'll get calm if you take care of your death, right? I think so. So, and they responded to that.

I think they really responded to that. Because they knew you're just cutting through the BS, you know? You go straight to what matters.

So, kye gang na chi. Birth, rebirth, aging, illness, and death. But there's a problem here so far.

What's that? Something missing. Kye was missing.

He didn't mention rebirth. But there's only half the verse, so give him a chance. I'm going to do this thing too.

I think everybody in the country should send a bill to Bill Gates for the time they waste on trying to get windows to work. And then all the money could be redistributed from where it came from, originally. But anyway.

le dang nyo mo wang gi kye Say, le dang nyo mo wang gi kye de la de me chir de me le dang nyo mo Two big problems in life. What are they? Karma and mental afflictions.

Karma and bad emotions, bad thoughts. le dang nyo mo wang gi means by the power of karma and mental afflictions. kye That's how people get born.

That's why people are reborn. Yeah, wang gi means through the power of karma and mental afflictions, people are born. By the way, I'm going to read you the whole verse in English because it's on your homework.

So I'll give you the translation in a minute. de la de de me Don't have it. And so, they don't have it.

Okay? They don't have it, and so they don't have it. de la de me chir de me Meaning what?

Who wants to take a shot? They don't have it, so they don't have it. Who's they?

Yeah, Aryas don't have karma and mental afflictions, so they don't have kye birth. So they don't have birth. papa la kyewa me atha Let me give you the translation first, okay?

Because this is going to take us on to another subject. This is just a translation thing. I like to avoid the word Arya in most translations because of the connotations with Hitler and all that, and the new Aryan things and all that, although it has nothing to do with Arya, right?

So I call them realized beings as opposed to enlightened beings. They've realized emptiness, but they're not enlightened yet. So it says, realized beings have eliminated death.

That's the first line. The second line reads, and sickness and aging from the root. Birth comes by the power of deeds.

Next line, and mental afflictions, dash. Last line, they have none and so have none. I got some at the bottom of my bag.

Oh, there you go. Back to our debate. papa la kyewa me atha So I guess Aryans, people who have seen emptiness directly, don't have birth, right?

[Говорящий 2]
One hundred.

[Говорящий 1]
Because the great, kind, benevolent lamas of our lineage have constantly repeated the fact that they don't have it, because they don't have them. pe je dang gyal shak pe dang gyal How could anybody contradict Holy Scripture, wonderful, magnificent Holy Scripture like you do? That's how Sarah May says that.

That's how Sarah May says that when you contradict a scripture. And then every different densa, each different major monastery has their own way. So Ganden will go, pe je dang gyal So when we debate, then we go, pe je dang gyal And then they go, pe je dang gyal Huh?

She has to mention it. Maitreya said that. He just said...

Not what it says. Show me where it says something else. It says they don't have it because they don't have them.

Oh, birth and the suffering of birth are different. So you have to take a rebirth and not suffer. So papala dukden myagpa So Aryas don't have the truth of suffering.

Aryas aren't the truth of suffering. Huh? So they don't have the truth of suffering.

So they don't have impurities that are related to karma and kleshas. So they have the truth of suffering. They are the truth of suffering.

They still are the truth of suffering. Can you be the truth of suffering and not be samsara? Are Aryas in samsara?

So they're in samsara but they're not suffering? By the way, I'm not just picking on you. This is the whole crux of the whole thousand years of debate.

And it's just exactly what just came up. It's like, are they suffering or aren't they? Are they the truth of suffering or not?

Much less, do they have the truth of suffering? Do they take rebirth or not? What makes them take rebirth?

And now I'll tell you a verse, the next verse from Maitreya. It says, ji shing yang dak tongway chir Because they have seen the way things are so well, meaning emptiness, right? kye so nam le de gyur kyang They are beyond birth and all those other problems.

But, kyang nying je dak ni kyewa dang, chi dang ga dang, nawar tun But still they pretend, or they just show, in Tibetan it's dun, right? They just pretend, because they are the embodiment of compassion, to take birth, to die, to get old, and to get sick. Sound good?

So bodhisattvas only take birth out of... We call it nying je dang mun lam. You should know that, nying je dang mun lam.

There's a new mun lam here, right? It's very famous. Just out of compassion, karuna and mun lam.

They're prayers. May I take birth in some crappy place to take care of people there. Only because of those do Aryas take rebirth.

Right, Michael?

[Говорящий 2]
Yes.

[Говорящий 1]
So they don't take rebirth through mental afflictions, right? Bodhisattvas, no. Bodhisattva Aryas.

They wouldn't take rebirth through mental afflictions. So everybody who ever achieves the first bodhisattva level, achieves the 8th one. Automatically!

No, not automatically. Because it's the 8th one where you lose your last mental affliction. So somewhere between 1 and 8.

You still got to work, you know? Like usually, how many lifetimes? 7.

Typically 7. As many as 16, depending on the practice. I don't know about that, but anyway.

How much is 7? That's a different book. Okay.

That's about people who keep their tantric vows or not. That's another subject. Okay.

That's a very beautiful thing about 16 lives, if you keep your vows. Okay. But I want to introduce you to the idea of...

And the reading is really nice. And I'll try to work on it on the planes and stuff, and email it after my vacation to L.A. Law or somebody. So Sipa Sipa Len Len Dombawa Dombawa Sipa Sipa Len Len Dombawa Dombawa You know, I've often mentioned a Sipa Len Dombawa, like in the Diamond Cutter class.

A person who has seen emptiness, typically, they might very typically perceive directly that they have 7 lifetimes to go to achieve enlightenment. 7 lifetimes as a human in the desire realm. Okay.

So, this is one kind of stream-enterer. And I thought, I mean, you can experience these things yourself directly. It's like, we were trying to do a lot of channel practices during the 3-year retreat.

And what we found out is that you can get 3 years of channel practices in half an hour from somebody. You see what I mean? Because the story is all sitting and working on it.

I mean, describing it to you can take a week or something. You know, you can go study it with some lama for about a week. And you can get the entire transmission of Je Tsongkapa's presentations on the channels and chakras or something like that.

But then to really do it, it takes like 3 years of just daily, all-day practice, basically. Sipa Len Dombawa is almost the same idea. You know, I've often mentioned it to you in terms of a direct experience of emptiness.

Like, if you see emptiness directly, you will, in the following hours after that, directly perceive that you will become enlightened within 7 lifetimes. Okay? At least.

At most. Sorry. Okay?

But I thought you might like to see the scriptural backup for that if anybody ever asks you. You know? Like, it's also helpful to have books you can pull out and say, well, this is where it talks about that, about the 7 lifetimes thing.

So it's possible you could even have the experience yourself and then go back later to the books and find it. And then write a reading about it for somebody like that. You know what I mean?

So I thought it's very helpful to have it in writing. You know, you say, how did you learn about the 7 lifetime thing? And you say, well, I heard it in a class from somebody.

They say, well, where's the proof for that in the scripture? And then it's useful, I think, to be able to go to the scriptures and say, so I'm going to do the scriptural presentation as opposed to the diamond cutter type of presentation. And that in itself is a little interesting, how it's evolved over the years and maybe got a little confused since the time that it was first spoken about.

It's found in Abhidharma literature, in Abhidharma Kosha and other texts. And it's used in the description of gyun shukpas, which is what? Stream-enterers.

Meaning people who have just seen emptiness directly. And there are many kinds of stream-enterers. Someday we can go through that chapter in the Abhidharma Kosha.

But this one is called the Sipa Lendumbawa. Sipa means like Sipa Khorlo Sipa, which is, do you know Sipa Khorlo? Yeah, Wheel of Life.

This means lives, lives. Sipa in this case means lives, lives to take. Still that many lives to take.

Lend without the dengu, okay, be careful, means times, how many times. And then din means seven. And then the pawa makes it an ER.

I like to call them a seven-timer. Okay, seven-timer. And it's pretty exciting.

I mean, if you go reading scriptures that say it's 49 billion years until Maitreya gets here, which is what liberation in the palm of your hand says, but then you know that it's possible to see emptiness directly yourself. And then within seven lifetimes, the average lifetime now is like 70 years, so that's 500 years. Like Maitreya could happen in 500 years.

Or less if you practice tantra, and we're going to see that. We're going to see some things from Je Tsongkapa. But the Sipa Lend Dongpa thing for me is very exciting because it means you will be the next Maitreya if you just work hard on the courses, and then your meditation, and then your Dzogchen practices, and your retreats.

I put in the reading the technical definition of a seven-lifetimer. It just basically says they will take seven more lifetimes in the desire realm, in the same type, meaning they will continue to be humans of high... they have good intellect, they have good tungkens, lots of people taking care of them.

They have enough money, they have enough food, everything is easy for them. And they continually meet great teachers, even from the time they're very young. Rick Chengi.

Pangyarim Gyipa. Pangyarim Gyipa means a stream mentor who abandons all their negativities in a gradual way. Gyun Zhu means a stream mentor.

Gyun Zhu Sipa Lend Dongpaway Tsenny is the definition of a seven-timer. It's not very complicated. Basically, they're just going to come back seven more times.

Or less if they practice tantra. Which means... I'm going to read you...

Now I'm just going to start the debate text. I'm just going to go through some debates with you. And I haven't translated them yet, so we'll just go as we go.

And so you just listen. You won't have a reading, so you just have to listen to the debates carefully. And then probably later you have to compare notes with each other.

You can get the reading, I think in about three weeks maybe. It's finished in Tibetan, but it's not finished in English. And we'll just go the usual way.

And just listen. This is from... I put the best monastic textbook first, so it's from...

Sereme. Sereme. Kedug Denpa Dage.

I think 1493-1568, but I have it in the reading, so don't worry about it. du den la pungpo rakpa yinpe ma kyap te Someone can be the truth of suffering and not possess the demon of the heaps. The demon of heaps.

There are four demons in Buddhism that you destroy as you become enlightened. The demon of the heaps means the body and mind that you were forced to take on when you came into this life. Dirty, mortal, troublesome body and mind.

Then there's the demon of the mental afflictions, which doesn't need any explanation for anyone who's done any le rungs or anything. Or who keeps a book. Then there's the demon of death.

Death itself. And then there's a demon called the child of the deity named Garab Wangchuk. And that just means, it's a fancy way of saying that in the old days, when you were getting close to getting enlightened, somebody would show up and try to take you off track.

Like just before the end, or as you get more advanced, you'll bump into some new friend and that's some kind of a demon influence who will try to convince you that what you're doing is not very meaningful or they'll try to get you sidetracked. And that's just a common thing when you're getting towards the end. They'll try to put doubts in your mind.

And the more powerful, the more beautiful, the more fantastic things are happening, the more the Chai Wangpa Du gets into action and tries to plant doubts, plant problems, get people distracted from the real issues like that. Like if you spent a thousand days in a yurt during retreat and then you have the big rejoicing afterwards but then you get distracted by some other thing, then that would be like Chai Wangpa Du. Okay.

SDUG BSNGAL LA PHUNG PA'I DU RAB PA YIN PAS MA KHYAP TE So he says, you can have the suffering of... I'm sorry, the truth of suffering. You can be the truth of suffering and not possess the demon of the heaps.

You can be the truth of suffering and not possess the demon of the heaps. Okay. Can you be a person and be the truth of suffering?

[Говорящий 2]
It's the truth of suffering and the truth of being. It's a fact, right?

[Говорящий 1]
RAB PA Truth of suffering, fact, and RAB PA Are you telling me truth of suffering is a fact? I think I taught you in the last class and said it's a fact. It's a fact in the sense of the things which are that thing.

It's not a truth as like a statement or a... You see what I mean? It's the reality of those things.

So can a person be the truth of suffering? Yeah. All sentient beings, all suffering sentient beings, are the truth of suffering.

It's not like they have the truth of suffering or they believe in the truth of suffering or they haven't recognized the truth of suffering. They are the truth of suffering. But can you be the truth of suffering and not have the demon of the heaps?

And he says, RGYUN CHUG SRID PA LEN DU BA BA Which means what? RGYUN CHUG RGYUN CHUG Stream enterer who's got seven lives to go. RGYUN CHUG GDUG LDAN YIN BSKYANG What?

GDUG LDAN YIN YIN They are the truth of suffering, but BSKYANG means but PHUNG PO'I DUS MA YIN PHUNG PO'I DUS MA YIN They are not the demon of the heaps. PHYIR BSTE RGYEN NIM KUN GYUR YIN PA'I PHYIR RGYEN NIM KUN GYUR YIN PA'I PHYIR What? They are the Sangha Jewel.

They are the Sangha Jewel. So what the monastic textbooks do, they are pedagogical. They are debate.

They are dialectic. They don't sit there and tell you, Now look, there's three kinds of stream enterers and then the third one, he has the truth of suffering. He has the truth of suffering, but he doesn't have the demon of the heaps, because he's the Sangha Jewel.

They just say, they just present an argument between two people, and then they go on. And then you have to, you have to suck out, you have to withdraw the information from it. So now you learned something, which is what?

You learned a bunch of stuff. You learned something about Sipa Landumbawas. You learned that these seven-time guys are what?

They are the truth of suffering. They don't possess the demon of the heaps, because they are Sangha Jewel. So then you can derive this thing that anybody who gets to be Sangha Jewel doesn't have this, the demon of the heaps, right?

So anybody who's a Sangha Jewel doesn't have a mortal body, right? Yeah, they do have a mortal body, right? So they have the demon of the heaps, right?

Yeah, now you get tricky, you know, because now we're starting to get questions. You're starting to get doubts, you know. What are you talking about?

What's the demon of the heaps, if it's not a mortal body? It might be, it might be. The nice thing about the script, the debate books, they don't tell you.

Yeah, you could say that, but they're still going to die. That body's still going to, or maybe it turns into light at a certain point. Maybe that, okay, maybe there's a difference that way.

Maybe there's some kind of difference that way, you see? Maybe they're on the way, they're on the conveyor belt to become a body of light, so they don't count as having the demon of the heaps body, okay? Maybe that, okay?

I propose, let's see. He throws in another comment, by the way, and I just chopped them out. You don't get the whole context, but for that you have to debate a lot.

He says, by the way, it's also not true that if you do have the demon of the heaps, you'd want to get rid of it. That it's a pang ja, heya. What's it?

Heya? No, it's the heya part. Praheya.

It's not true that it's a praheya. Pang ja. Okay?

Wow, sure? Pumbuddu, you're telling me that if you've got the demon of the heaps, it's infesting you. It's not something you want to get rid of?

Apparently not. You could probably find somebody from another monastery that said the opposite. Why not?

Why do you think he said that? No, we're talking about nirnangi pumbuddu. Nirnangi pumbuddu means the ones that were forced on you when you were born.

Okay? Nirnangi pumbuddu. But he says, deyong jor gyi chu chok gye dang denpay mi lu, a human body which is possessed of the 18 deyong jor, which is what?

Spiritual leases and fortunes from the Lam Rim. Come on, it's a precious thing. It's a wonderful thing.

You wouldn't want to, for example, commit suicide. Okay, so it's not something to be eliminated, right? You're referring to the form of double negative, right?

It's not true that the streamers do not want to get rid of it. No, it's not true that even if your being is in the clutches of the demon of the heaps, that it's something you'd want to get rid of, necessarily. So are you going to buy that?

Do you buy that? It's not something to get rid of? Say again?

[Говорящий 2]
Is this a sutra debate or a tantra debate?

[Говорящий 1]
We're coming to the tantra later. We're coming to the tantra. But let's stick to sutra.

So, suffering heaps are not something to be abandoned, because they have the 18 leases and fortunes from the beautiful Lam Rim books. That's what he's saying. That's what the author of our textbook just said.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's this thing where you don't get rid of the boat until you get over the ocean, you know? Then you must get rid of the boat, okay? Is there a contradiction entailed because the streamers do not want to get rid of the teams and fortunes, because the streamers, they don't possess them in the first place?

That's true too. Okay, anyway, here we go. Vinny says a little bit.

You want some detail? You want to sit here for hours? I don't know.

Okay. And by the way, it's not even true that if something is the demon of the mental afflictions, it's a mental affliction, he says. Just in case you were wondering.

You got an idea? We need a Chod Chan, right? We need a Chod Chan.

We need that example which proves the exception. I'll say it again. He said, by the way, that thing about the demon and mental afflictions, something can be the demon and mental afflictions and not be a mental affliction.

And not be, he throws in an adjective that he hopes you don't notice. A manifest mental affliction. Yeah, could be a latent mental affliction.

But he goes further. He says, you could be the, in a way, you could be mixed up with mental afflictions and not be mental.

[Говорящий 2]
Like he's really pushing the envelope.

[Говорящий 1]
That's in one way. But what would be a mental affliction demon but not be mental? Work on that.

By the way, Rinpoche brought us up on these. I mean, we read these. We didn't do the ACI courses.

We only read these. So for anybody who was there for 30 years ago, it's easy. Nyomonggi sabun.

Say sabun. The bhagchak. Bhagchak.

Nyomonggi bhagchak. So you're telling me bhagchak's not mental? Yeah.

Well, A, it's not manifest. But B, it's not mental at all anyway. It's an energy.

It's a potential. You see, if you split the whole world into mental, physical, and stuff in between, where does it go? It goes in between.

It goes in the demonduchies. It's a power. It's a potential.

It's an energy. It's not mental. It's not cognizant.

It doesn't perceive anything, you see. It's just an event waiting to happen in a way. That's a bhagchak.

So bhagchaks stay in your mind, but they're not activated. They're not mind. They stay in your mind, but they're not the mind.

So they're seeds without causes and conditions for ripening. Woohoo. I don't know about that.

We debate that later. Then he goes into this long story about how you don't have to be the son of the deity, the child of the deity, mental affliction, which just means someone who distracts you. You don't have to be a child of a deity, but you knew that.

Okay, here's another bit. Let's talk about a bodhisattva on the third level. Can you think of one?

Arya Sandhya, according to the scriptures, by the end of his life. Sasobhacharyajan, khyukyapamudurabha chomata. Did he get rid of the rough form, rough form, of the demon of the heaps?

And then he says, because he destroyed heaps which are impure and which come from karma and kleshas. We can agree to that so far, right? I think.

Okay, he got rid of the demon of the heaps because he's gotten rid of any heaps that are a product of karma and kleshas, karmas and mental afflictions. Good? Buy it?

He's being careful. He's smart. Let's buy it.

Let's see where he goes from there. Takdrub te. You have to agree to my reason that he has gotten rid of heaps that are caused by karma and mental afflictions because thek chen gyi tongwa nam du lam la ne pay sempa de Because a bodhisattva who's on the Mahayana path of seeing, in the moments after seeing emptiness directly, we call it being in the meditation.

And then when you get up and start walking around like an hour later, then we call it nam du. Nam du means at that point when you start to, you're already free of all the problems that seeing emptiness directly eliminates. So you're in a state of liberation in a sense.

Because bodhisattvas who have just seen emptiness directly and are walking around in the 24 hours after that, they have gotten rid of rebirth and death, which are created by karma and mental afflictions, because the uttara tantra says, and every single debate I have in here has this same quotation. I wanted you to see how 10 different people in the last 2,000 years, 1700 years, have used the same quotation to prove what they want to prove. And it's not bad.

I mean, it gives us insight into the meaning of the quotation. And then he just quotes that line, those lines. And he says, by the way, moreover, if you're a person who has just reached the first bodhisattva level, because you just got bodhichitta and you just saw emptiness directly, le nyun gyi wang gi chungway sak chak gi pungpo pangpe kyal thao I say you must have gotten rid of the...

Are you telling me that they have gotten rid of keeps which are created by karma and kleshas? Are you telling me that from that quotation? I mean, our guy, us come up to the other guy and say, are you telling me that?

The guy already just agreed to our quotation. So he said, do you think the quotation proves what we were trying to prove? I said, yeah.

Okay, good, okay. dak kye du na dak kye means, well, you agreed, right? du na, chang sem drar lampe, thek chen gyi tong lam thob ma thab pa'i tse chang sem tong lampe gyu la le nyun gyi wang gi wang la la la la la Okay, anyway.

Let's talk about a person who's on the path of preparation, which happens just before what? Seeing emptiness directly, okay? Path of preparation.

They're on the Mahayana path of preparation. And they've just achieved the path of seeing, right? Just achieved the path of seeing.

Are you saying they don't have heaps which are a product of karma and kleshas?

[Говорящий 2]
Yeah.

[Говорящий 1]
Whoa. du mi je du mi ne de You can't agree. chang sem drar lampe gyu la de yu Because the guy who was on the path of preparation had a body which was created by karma and kleshas.

And, gang shik, gang shik, right? Gang shik means and. de nyi lu ten chi yinpe che Because they are the same bodily continuum.

I mean 10 minutes later he's an Aryan. So like 10 minutes before he's got a body that was produced by karma and kleshas. Are you saying that 10 minutes later he has a different body?

Because what, you know? Then he just leaves you like that, okay? And you have to think about it.

And that's what they do, you know? And Rinpoche would do that too, you know? He'd say, we'd say, but what's the punchline, Rinpoche?

And he'd say, you go cook it. You go think about it, you know? One nice thing about the monastic textbooks is sometimes they'll just leave you hanging.

They won't give you the... Like Americans, people in Rinpoche's classes just get so frustrated. You know, they want, what's the end?

What's the end, you know? Is there a denouement? No.

You got to figure it out. Okay, so there you go. You got stuck with that one.

But what did you learn from that last statement? He said, lu ten chig gi mey che. They have one and the same bodily stream.

Continuum. What do you learn from that? What might be an implication of that?

Is that certain parts of the path of preparation happen like within half an hour of seeing emptiness directly. You know what I mean? Like jor lam chod chok, you know?

Highest part of the path of preparation. I mean, what he's arguing is that, come on, they're so close. What he's saying, what he's implying is like they're half hour apart.

They're 15 minutes apart. You're telling me it's a different kind of body he's got now? But what you learn from that argument, even if you didn't have anybody to tell you that, is that the direct perception of emptiness happens like within half an hour of the highest part of the path of preparation.

Because it's such a big deal that the bodies are the same in that half hour, okay? All right, we'll do one more and take a break. duk den yin na korwa yinpe kyap duk den yin na korwa yinpe kyap I need to kick you now.

duk den, dung nyam denpa yin na, korwa yinpe kyap If something is the truth of something, yin na, korwa yinpe kyap It must be samsara? Yeah. Whoa, cook that one.

If something is the truth of suffering, it must be samsara.

[Говорящий 2]
We aren't saying that someone who has seen emptiness directly has achieved nirvana.

[Говорящий 1]
Sorry, are we saying that?

[Говорящий 2]
Well, you can't be saying that.

[Говорящий 1]
No, we can't, right? Because what?

[Говорящий 2]
Because they haven't permanently ceased all their mental perception.

[Говорящий 1]
Right, right. That's a long ways away. That's 490 years away or something, right?

At least, you know. Well, at most, maybe. But anyway, duk den yin na korwa yinpe kyap What do you guys say?

This is the ka chig ma. Ka chig ma means what? One mouth.

Which always means the other guy. The guy who's saying the wrong thing. I mean, luckily they identify who's saying the first thing, right?

So if you're like this 13 year old kid in the monastery, you know it's wrong already, but you just got to figure out why. He says, the guy who's always wrong says, if something is the truth of suffering, it must be samsara. Any biters?

Brian? All you have to do is find a mi ten chok. You have to find an example that doesn't fit that.

[Говорящий 2]
An emanation appearing to a samsaric being.

[Говорящий 1]
Okay, an emanation appearing to a samsaric being. Is it dunyadharma? Is it truth of suffering?

No. I, we need something which is the truth of suffering, but is not samsara. But if it's appearing to that being, right, it would have to be in samsara.

For whom?

[Говорящий 2]
Yeah, right. Oh, who's the truth of suffering?

[Говорящий 1]
The guy seeing the emanation is, is the truth of suffering then.

[Говорящий 2]
The Buddha, from the Buddha's point of view, that the emanating Buddha is seeing themselves in samsara.

[Говорящий 1]
In samsara, but they're not the truth of suffering.

[Говорящий 2]
Well, then they would have to be the truth of suffering if that was correct.

[Говорящий 1]
Oh no, he said the opposite. If it's the truth of suffering, it has to be samsara. Which basically, if anything has been screwed up, it has to be the truth, it has to be samsara.

Who's side, again? Well, let's go on. ma dapay nukye jikten chok chen ma dapay nukye jikten chok chen Let's consider the impure vessel of the world.

This world that we live in. Okay. That's his counterexample.

Okay, you gave the example of a deity emanating as a normal being. He gives the example of the world we live in. The suffering world we live in.

So what's the guy going to come back with now, the opponent? He's going to say, are you telling me it's the truth of suffering? Are you telling me it's not samsara?

Our guy, our boy, came and said, take the world, suffering world, impure world, which means he thinks it's what? Truth of suffering, but not samsara. Well, let's keep going.

Horayamatha. Oh, I guess it's samsara, right? And the guy says, why did you say that?

dukden yinpe yichar It's the truth of suffering. Okay. I like this one.

I remember this one. I busted my head on this in Thera. Because, the guy says, oh, we say it has to be the truth of suffering, because kundu, samuchaya, I don't know which one, says dukden yinpe yichar Now, what is the truth of suffering?

sem chen kyewa dang kyeway ne kyi kyang rikpa jangwa Either one, suffering sentient beings, or the world they live in. shesungpay ichar So the impure world around us has to be the truth of suffering, because that book said so. That ancient Indian book said so.

Okay. Then the guy says, okay, I'll go along with it. This world is samsara.

He says, du na korwa mayinpa tha When you go up, what's it mean? korwa mayinpa tha No, this is the non-sarcastic one. When you go down, korwa mayinpa tha You're telling me it's not korwa?

You're telling me it's not samsara? But when you go up, korwa mayinpa tha means what? No, it's not suffering.

No, it's not samsara. Okay. How is the tone of your voice indicated in the scripture?

When you do chanting, and they have chanting notation, there are these beautiful wavy things. They look like waves. They go, ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo And they draw this line like that.

But there's no line like that here. How do you know his voice is going up? You just have to figure it out from the context.

Sorry. No, no. If what he says is true from what you figure out later, he must have gone up.

Okay? Sorry. MA YIN PA THA LAS DANG NYON MONGS PA'I DBANG GIS GANG DUG KHOR BA'I GNAS YIN PA'I PHYIR Because it ain't Khorwa.

It's the place where you Khorwa. Do the karman clashes. Okay?

Okay? It ain't Khorwa. It's the place where you Khorwa.

It's not the cycle. It's the place where you circle. Okay?

I don't know. Let's see where he's going to go from there. By the way, you don't have to buy them right away.

You have to question them. That's why they write them as debates. And sometimes they'll wrap it up wrong and see if you can catch them.

Okay? Then you have to be really careful. GZHAN YANG RGYUN ZHUG ZHIG PA LEN DANG BA'O TSOS CAN GZHAN YANG RGYUN ZHUG ZHIG PA LEN DANG BA'O TSOS CAN ZHIG PA LEN DANG BA'O TSOS CAN What's that?

Seven timer. TSOS CAN means let's talk about a seven timer. Take a seven timer.

Okay? We can do all this in Tibetan when we start university and we'll be debating. I'm thinking English, Sanskrit, and Tibetan.

We'll debate. Different groups of course. Or maybe all the same.

Anyway. Khorwa YIN PA THA YIN TSAMSARA Are you telling me he's...

[Говорящий 2]
YIN TSAMSARA No.

[Говорящий 1]
He said Khorwa YIN.

[Говорящий 2]
Khorwa YIN Are you telling me he IS TSAMSARA?

[Говорящий 1]
Right? Why? If I'm the debater, you're the good guy, I'm the bad guy.

You said to me, Khorwa YIN PA THA You're telling me a seven timer is TSAMSARA? I said, GZHIG GZHIR Why'd you say that?

[Говорящий 2]
Because you just said that if it's the truth of suffering, if it's the truth of suffering, it has to be TSAMSARA.

[Говорящий 1]
That the LEN DANG BA'A is the truth of suffering. Okay? So I'll go over it again.

You opponents said that if something is the truth of suffering, it has to be TSAMSARA. So let's take that seven timer. Are you telling me he's TSAMSARA?

Why'd you say that? I didn't say that. But he's the truth of suffering, isn't he?

That's how far we are right now. He's the truth of suffering. The guy's got to say what?

Yeah, he's the truth of suffering. Of course he's the truth of suffering. LAS MYUN GYI DBANG GIS KHOR BA'I NAS SU RANG DBANG MED PAR SKYE BA LEN PA'I SEMS CAN YIN PA'I PHYIR Here's a tough one.

Because he is a sentient being who is taking birth in the place called TSAMSARA helplessly due to his or her karma and kleshas. Is that okay? Well, I don't know.

I don't know.

[Говорящий 2]
I don't know.

[Говорящий 1]
We got problems here. We got inconsistencies between the texts. Now this guy's saying he has to be the truth of suffering because he's going to take more births in TSAMSARA due to the power of his karma and kleshas.

And this is a good textbook writer. Who is this? Let me just check.

Oh, this is ours. This is Sarah May. Now don't forget that he said that.

Keep that. SEMS LA BYAG CHUB Keep that note in mind. He said this guy helplessly has to take birth through karma and kleshas.

We just heard Maitreya saying what? He takes place through what? Two things.

[Говорящий 2]
MUN LA Compassion and prayer.

[Говорящий 1]
Yeah, NYING RJE and MUN LA. Compassion and prayer. May I be born in a land full of...

They call it LALA LUMPA. It means barbarian land like America. Dharmically.

Then he says DON NA Then the other guy breaks down. He says, okay, okay, okay, he's TSAMSARA. I said, I said he had to be, right?

Because he's the truth of suffering. He is TSAMSARA. KOR BA YIN PA THAR KOR BA PO YIN MED PHYIR KOR BA YIN PA THAR KOR BA PO YIN MED PHYIR Now he's not TSAMSARA.

He's KOR BA PO. Which means what? Yeah, he's the one who's in TSAMSARA.

He's the TSAMSARA-er. TSAMSARIST. He's not TSAMSARA. He's not TSAMSARA.

So, so far, what do you got? The world can't be TSAMSARA because it's what? It's the place where you're TSAMSARA.

The guy who's in TSAMSARA can't be TSAMSARA. He's a TSAMSARA-er. So what's TSAMSARA?

His last class. Or, here's a very important thing. Where they're cycling or what they're chained to.

Okay, that's nice. If you're talking about where they're cycling or what they're chained to, and that's going to be useful later, okay? It's NIR LEN GYI PHUNG PO.

It's your body and your mind that you took on when you were born. That's where they're chained to. GNAS GANG DU GONG NA And where is all this cycling taking place?

In the world. The impure world. KOR ZHES BYOD DGOS PA'I He says ZHES BYOD DGOS PA'I If you're going to be precise, you've got to talk about it that way.

But none of these is TSAMSARA, is it? The place, the person, the thing they're chained to, none of that is TSAMSARA. What is TSAMSARA then?

He doesn't tell you. He closes it. Like that.

He leaves it. He says, can't you guys distinguish between subjects and objects? Don't you have the Khorasum, correct?

Tessie loves that. She loves Khorasum. What are Khorasum?

[Говорящий 2]
Three spheres.

[Говорящий 1]
Three spheres, meaning the person who's cycling in TSAMSARA.

[Говорящий 2]
The person who's cycling in TSAMSARA, the cycling itself, and what it produces.

[Говорящий 1]
Or the place where they're cycling. So which one is TSAMSARA? Which one is TSAMSARA?

Which one is the real cycle? He says, get it straight. Get it straight.

People think, they say, oh, New York is TSAMSARA. People say, I have to go on vacation because I don't like TSAMSARA. People say that.

People say, I got cancer. My cancer is TSAMSARA. What is TSAMSARA?

It's the condition. LAS DANG NYON MONGS KYI DBANG GIS LAS DANG NYON MONGS KYI KHOR BA NA KHOR BA'I CHA CHA means the condition. The fact of it is TSAMSARA.

It's very subtle. And you got to cook it. You got to cook it.

The implication is we are not living in TSAMSARA. And it's not that we are TSAMSARA. It's that the condition of being here is TSAMSARA.

What's the tantric implication? No, you could change it. You could change it.

The place ain't TSAMSARA. You're not TSAMSARA. It's the condition of being here that's TSAMSARA.

It's the condition of having to be here through mental afflictions and karma that's TSAMSARA. But in and of itself, this isn't TSAMSARA. And you're not a TSAMSARA being.

The fact that you're still here is TSAMSARA. That's very tantric. You got to cook that.

He's not writing a tantric book, but he threw that in. Okay. I'd like to go on.

I'm not really doing the whole ACI courses with you this way, although they were all based on these scriptures. But you start to get a feel that if you were in a debate ground and if you debated this stuff for an hour, then you'd know this stuff backwards and forwards. You go to Tucson, teach somebody at the Muse...

I hate to call it the YMCA. It sounds cheap. It's pretty cheap.

But anyway, you really know your stuff by the end. You really know your stuff. You really, really grasp it.

And there are modern scholars who say all those monastic textbooks, they're just silly. They're just splitting hairs. But really, if you have DGAL BA, if you have virtue, core, in you, they're like deities have written these things.

You could spend your whole life looking at these things. And listening to the debate go back and forth. And by the time you're done, you get everything.

Because they've ripped it apart from every angle. It's a very nice way to learn. I think debate is really nice.

The prisoners really loved it. It also gives you a chance to act a little crazy and still learn something. It's a very useful thing.