ACI 6 «Сутра Алмазного Огранщика», занятие 10

Class Ten: How Empty Things Function
May 01, 1995
Geshe Michael Roach
transcribed by: Amber Moore




{Ja... Ja Che} means the way things work. {Ja Che} means the way things work.
Things work, okay. {Tepa} means, {tepa} means "proper" or correct.



[laughs] I always do that.



[silence]



Say, {chunam} [repeat], {tongyam} [repeat], okay. {Chunam} means, "all existing
things", all dharmas. {Chu} means "dharma". {Nam} means, "all existing things".
{Chunam} means all existing things. {Tongyam}, {tong} means, do you guys
know? You know {tongpa}, {tonpanyi}?



[student: Emptiness.]



Empty. {Tongyam} means, "even though they are empty". {Tongyam} means,
"even thought they are empty". Yeah.



[student: I'm so sorry, I can't transcribe Tibetan and English and write down
your definitions quite so fast, I apologize.]



Okay, okay, you mean I should slow down.



[student: Just a little tiny bit.]
Alright. Okay. It means, "even though all things are empty, things still work
quite okay". Even though all objects are empty, everything still works.



[student: But last week you said that that was kind of a wimpy way of putting it,
it's really... [unclear]]

Yeah, yeah, that's true, that's right we're, we're debating a lower school about
that. [laughter] She, she said something good. She said you shouldn't say, "even"
though, you should say "because" instead of {kyang}. You should say, "Because
all things are empty, things still work, things work", but it's, your right. You do
see it this way sometimes. Up to you, if it strikes you. It really is because, but
we didn't get that far yet.



[student: Would you say still, say still work.]



[unclear] in the refrigerator. [laughter] Because, okay, you can even put
because. Because things are empty, things work. But we're actually responding
to a school that says... we're trying to get them out of it. Sometimes you take a
lower position just to get somebody out of their lower, lower position.



[student: What's the name of the school?]



This, this is the big... this is the big belief of, of the Uma Tengyurma, the highest
school of Buddhism, Madhumika Prasangika, this is their motto, this is their
mantra. This is Tsongkhapa's obsession, this is Nagarjuna's obsession, okay.
They, they want people to believe, to understand this, okay.           What does it
mean? It means, how do things work in the world. We can take two examples,
we can take medicine or we can take, let's say, investment strategies, okay, Mr.
Stillwell? [laughs] Okay? Why does medicine always work? Why, if five people
take the same medicine, they always get cured?



[student: They don't.}
They don't, [laughs], okay, who said that?



[student: Me.]



Oh yeah, they don't, he's a... he knows because he works in the medical
profession, okay. So, I mean, you know that, it strikes you. Three people can
take the very same medicine for the very same disease, sometimes it works,
sometimes it doesn't. So what we're talking sbout tonight is not just the
emptiness of a thing, you know, Mike the monk is empty and we've talked
about it many times. You, you see the parts and you project onto those parts a
monk, if you have the mental seed to do that. In a, in a, in a worldly way, if you
know what a monk is, if you ever met a monk before. In a deeper way, if your
karma allows you to put it together that way. If your own projection allows you
to put those parts together that way, you'll see a monk. Somebody else might
come in here and see something absolutely different, okay, they have different
karma. The question is, what about something working? We're not just talking
about one object, we're talking about the way two objects interact. That also has
it's own emptiness. The way things interact, the way things in the world affect
each other, the way when you do something you get a result out of it. Those are
all also empty. What does it mean for them to be empty? What does it mean for
medicine to be empty, a far as it's function , as far as how it works? What, what
would prove medicines emptiness. We talked, we proved many times, the guy
at works emptiness, what about proving that, that how medicine works is
empty? Then what?



[student: It doesn't have healing properties of its own?]



Yeah.



[student: From it's own side.]



In and of itself it, it cannot cure you. It, it is blank, it's as blank or as empty as
everything else it's function, not just the pill. I mean you could look at the pill
and say, "I see round, I see red, I see these little letters written on it, so I know
that it's Upjons latest, you know, whatever pill. And and I project that onto it."
But what about when I take the pill and something happens and something
doesn't happen, is, is that a projection? Absolutely. Every {kunsok denpa},
every normal object in the relative world is, is a projection. So when you take
medicine and it works, or it doesn't work, that a, that's also a projection. and it's
very important to understand that. That's a big deal in the Madhyumika, in the
higher schools of the Madhyumika. It's very important to realize that, that, it's
also a projection when things work or operate. Very interesting



[student: But what about the case where someone is unconscious and they are
given something that revives them?]



Karma works on a level which is deeper that consciousness, on subconscious and
consciousness. It's, projections can happen. You have... our project in your
dreams, you project in your unconscious. You, you're always projecting your
own consciousness. Until that person dies, or until afterwards actually, he'll
project his own mind. [laughs]



[student: So are you saying, biological function is a projection?]



Everything. What I'm saying is that you guys are hung up on a very interesting
thing, and it's, it's not a, it's not bad. The whole Buddhist, all the schools of
Buddhism are hung up on the same thing, until you get up to Prasangika, until
you get up to the highest school of Buddhism, they want to say that, "oh
something has to be real", in the sense that something has to be not my
projection. I mean, I can agree that certain objects are my projections perhaps,
but when the sun comes up? You know, when the sun comes up, this is my
projection? You know, I can project a trillion mega tons of energy coming to,
into outer space and the earth turning to meet it and the sun coming up? Yeah,
exactly, that's your projection.



[student: Well I'm thinking of projection in the sense of taking in data with the
five senses and interpreting it with the mind and forming some image. ]
Yeah, it's very important, what we're talking about here is... normally when you
think of projection, you're thinking of parts. You got this part here, you got this
part here, you know, you got the fires down here and you got this part here,
and this is shining a little bit. And, and the mind fills it in and says, oh that's a,
that's a pot and I'm cooking with it. And your... and your mind even sees the
back of it, you know, your mind makes this perfect image. Actually all the, all
you can catch at one time is, is a few indications. That's about all you catch of a
pot when you're making tea on the stove. You never catch more then, then
about that many indications, [laughter], and you make the pot. You make a pot
in your mind and it's a fine pot and you believe it's out there. There are parts
there, but when you investigate the parts, when you look at the handle, all you
see is that. And when you look at each one of those parts, all you see is that.
And if you go deeper and deeper and deeper You don't find anything, and that's
classic proof of emptiness. That's {Tibetan...} When you look for the thing that
gets the label, you can't find it. If you keep digging, you'll never find it.
Nagarjuna says, "When Farmers say they plant their seeds and they come up, I
agree with them, I am a farmer." And this guy at Woodstock, right? Max, what's
his name?



[students: Max {unclear]]



And Nagarjuna says the same things. And he say's, " As long as you don't get
too deep, as long as you don't dig into it, things work okay, you can accept it, but
the minute you start looking for each part, and how do I.... is each part presented
to me? No. Not ultimately. Relatively, no, okay. So, but what I want to say is,
that's how you... what about the sun rising?



[student: See, this is the....]



But what about that ten minute action of the sun coming up over the horizon?



[student: [unclear]]
What are the parts, what are the parts? We talk about parts over time, also with
the mind stream. Also with the stream with your, of you, with you, through
your life. How do we know Cheryl is the same Cheryl that was here last week?
We get indications across time. We get Cheryl at eight... seven thirty-nine, you
get Cheryl at seven forty. You get Cheryl at seven forty two. You, you
remember those perceptions, you glue that together mentally with a projection
and you call that Cheryl who was in class tonight, okay. So the sun itself, rising,
is also a projection. What are the parts? It's, it's the, it's the the first sliver, it's the
second sliver, it's the half round, it's the three quarters round and it's the full
round and on those parts you project, you inpute, you project the sun rising. So
actions also, not just one solid thing, but the even the action of something
happening through time. And the lower school couldn't get it. They bumped
into that, they got all the way up to actions and they had to stop, they couldn't
accept that. Yeah.



[student: You seem to imply that, for instance, using medicine as an example,
that there's an unreliability here that depends on your individual karma.]



Absolutely, and you've experienced that.



[student: Alright, well I think maybe that's not such a good example because...]



Why?



[student: Well, two people can appear to have the same illness, but it's very very
detailed, what's going on quote, unquote, what's going on inside their bodies at a
cellular level for instance. The sun coming up on the other hand, is quite the
opposite of two different people taking medicine, it is very consistent for every
single being, bug, cockroach, on the planet.]



For the time being.
[student: Right.]



It'll change, I mean according to [b: Abbidharma] fourth chapter, end of the...
third chapter, it'll, it'll super nova one day, it'll start to burn up the earth, and
people won't see the sun come up and...



[student: But it will be consistent, I mean, it won't be that some people will still
see the sun come up and some will have a super nova...]



That's true, that's true, you could say that all people on Earth, have the...we
collected a, a, a communal karma, we all participated. It's actually true that in so
far as the sun is a great boon to us, and, and in most ways it is, it's a result of
your collected virtue. It really is, we, we all ... every body on the planet earth
collected some similar virtue, probably involving giving light to someone who
need it, or heat or warmth to someone who needed it and that's why whe enjoy
the, the use of the sun. There are beings on planets who don't have a sun like
that. They are, they are described in scriptures, who, who don't , who've never
had that experience. They don't enjoy that karmic result called the sun coming
up. And the day after you die, you won't enjoy it either, unless you're born here
again.



[student: But you were leading me with that example of the medicine that
because of emptiness and karma there's no consistency...]



Yeah, there's no consistency in the sun either,      I'm trying to tell you.    Two
seconds after you stop breathing...



[student: No, I mean that wouldn't hold up if, if some people saw a supernova
and some people still saw a regular sunrise.]



Yeah, yeah.
[student: Some things appear to be very consistent, also because of emptiness.]



It could be, it could be, yeah.



[student: The example you gave of the pot seems to be dependent upon the
senses, and what I'm trying to understand is, is, if you are not talking about
emptiness, how to say it? Projecting seems to me to depend on the senses,
sight, sound, et cetera.]



No, you project mentally, when you hear your thought run in your head you're
projecting. That's very interesting.



[student:   So, would medicine affecting you biologically be affecting you
mentally, when you're not , not dependent on the senses or the, or the mind or
whatever. ]



It's very interesting, when you see the sun come up, the sun is not moving, it's
your own projections shifting. And that's the whole point of the tonight's class.
When you see anything change, when you see anything move, when you see
anything shift, when you see anything cause another thing, according to what
we've said all during this class, and this is the final, this is the tenth class, right,
those things aren't moving out there, it's your own projections shifting.



[student: Meaning your mind, your projections meaning your mind, not your...]



Your project, yeah... {lagnyi dagpey}.     The, the imputations of your own
projections which are forced on you by your karma, they, they are shifting. The
things out there aren/t changing, are not changing. That's the very interesting
thing when they say the Buddha doesn't move, the Buddha doesn't get up, the
Buddha doesn't walk to get his morning meal from the people in the town, that's
what they are talking about. They're not changing, you're changing. Very
interesting, you know, and it makes sense according to what we've said so far.
Yeah.
[student: Can I ask you a question?]



Yeah.



[student: When [unclear] can you will yourself to get ill or recover from a, from
an illness?]



Well...



[student: An illness... [unclear].. not to react to medication, hence not get ill. My
second question is, all these universal laws, I mean, all these theories, et cetera,
are they all [unclear]]



Collective projections, yeah.



[student: They're, they're, they don't exist at all they don't have any validity.]



They are collective projections, they are valid they are not true.



[student: Answer the medicine question next.]



I forgot exactly... Oh, by the way there is a role in health of being positive. You
know there's a short term, wimpy, psychological things you can do to try to be
well. Ultim... quickly they break down and you get sick anyway. You know
that. The brightest happiest people get cancer, you know. The, the, the people
with the best positive attitudes still get in car wrecks, you know and still, and still
die horrible deaths, and still... you know it is true that in the very short term,
your attitude about your illness can affect it. By the way that's in that's also
karma. If it does affect it's a projection. Okay, that's very interesting. So I'm not
saying that, I'm not suggesting that, oh, if we all had a good attitude, I remember
this book by this lady, who, she said if you ate health food you never get sick.
And she got cancer, and she died of the cancer, but as she was dying she said, I
know, I remember eating a chocolate bar when I was a kid and it's like, come on,
[laughs], you know. I mean, it doesn't mean don't eat health food there, there
are what we call {khens}, you know there are minor causes and they can have an
effect on your health. But the main state of your health is going to depend on
something else when we talk about it, okay. So that's, that's motion, that's
change. Change in the world is what? When things change or move, what's
happening?



[student: Projection.]



Your own projection is, is, is varying, the cause is varying. The cause goes
through... like all other changed things, goes through all in own cycles and it's
own swings. And as your own mind swings, as your own projections swing,
things appear to change and that's the only thing going on, they are not
changing. Yeah.



[student:    So you have this data out there which you are receiving and
interpreting according to your karma and so your karma and interpretation is
fluctuating and so you...]



Yeah. Exactly.



[student: And so what is the data doing that's out there?]



Now, listen to the answer, do you want me to focus on the data or do you want
me to back off and focus on the events?



[student: Underlying data is what I was thinking.]
Oh, okay you want me too... underlying data.



[students: Oh,oh.]



It's also a projection onto it's parts. Back off, yeah, there is underlying data, there
is objective underlying data. Now if I focus, you asked me what the nature of
the underlying data? It's subjective, it's a projection also.



[student: No, what is that data doing, what's happening?]



It's appearing to be those things, it's suggesting that to me.



[student: I always try to get to this, what is that data, you know?] [laughter]



No, there, there are, in the case of a visual, if I see someone walking, there are
changes in the shapes and colors, there are changes in the shapes and colors
being presented to my eye, but when I start to investigate one of those shapes, it
too is only a group of smaller shapes and when I investigate those smaller
shapes. But when you just leave it alone, is there data underlying, is there data
suggesting to my mind that someone's moving? I say yes.



[student: But you can never get to it.]



You can never get to it. That's {Tanye dagnyi dagpa sem ....yeche], very famous
Mahdyumika.



[student: Do you say yes on a conventionally, you say yes conventionally.?]



No, not even on a conventional level you can reach it. If you only stick to the
guy walking, you can say that there are colors and shapes being presented to
you. That suggests a person walking. A {tsema} means... a [tsema} draws a valid
conclusion from those... it is valid, they do suggest validly, properly, a guy
walking. And it's perfectly reasonable and proper for me to say there's a guy
walking there because when I start to look at those colors and shapes I can't find
them either.



[student: But then you're saying... oh sorry.]



[laughs] [student: You brought in a brand new word, you said, "there are
objective data". Does objective mean nominal?]



Objective means as long as you don't look deeper, there is something, there is
stuff...



[student: There is stuff being projected. [laughs]]



...being presented. It's objective untill you look deeper.There are colors and
shapes there, that suggest a guy walking.



[student: Excuse me, but when John says cheerfully, "those data out there", that
really means that if you had the blessing to be perceiving emptiness directly at
that moment, you would certainly be perceiving those as data out there.]



You couldn't perceive it at all, if you're not a Buddha.



[student: Yeah, so that in fact, they're in a sense, I don't know that they are to
[unclear] obliterated by the direct perception of emptiness.]



Well, you just... we don't have the capacity, a non Buddha mind does not have
the capacity to focus in the two realms at once. They're two totally different
realms. And, and we can't focus on both at the same time. It's not that the other
things don't exist while you're there.



[student: Michael, are you saying that impermanence is subjectively, or is there
such thing as...]



[laughter] I'm trying to say that. I'm trying to say, when anything moves, when
anything changes, when anything causes another thing, it's just your projection.



[student: So you couldn't say something out there that presents itself to the
senses that it's, a caused thing, that it came into existence.]



It is. I mean, when you...



[student: I mean, could you say that it comes into existence as a result of your
projections?]



Oh yeah, that's true, and that's why that's a caused thing.



[student: Why can't you just say dependence on and not as a result of? It's quite
different.]



[student: Can you say that again?]



I... because to night I'm trying to emphasize moving, cause and effect, things
affecting other things, medicine making you better, an investment making you
wealthy. Okay, how do they work? Why do they work?



[student: I wish I knew.] [laughter]
You do know, no if you think about it, allot of the suffering of the world, when
you get into this subject deeply, it's very interesting... because most of the
suffering of the world, maybe all of the suffering of the world, we used to talk
about getting mad at the guy at work and not getting mad at the guy at work,
but what if, I mean, all of the suffering of the world is caused by expecting some
result from some cause, and it, and it doesn't come some of the time and that
gives them disappointment and suffering and confusion and anxiety, you know,
if you knew cause and effect perfectly, if you knew how to get rich, period. I
mean we've been on this planet for, I don't know how many millions of years,
people. If there were some objective scientific way to get rich don't you think
they would have figured it by now. I mean, why are we still struggling? Why
are people still fighting and debating and worrying and writing in the
magazines, like forums, you know. And it's always funny, you know, on page
ten there's a, there's an article about this guy who took a risk and succeeded and
he's brilliant. On page twenty, there's an article about this guy who took a risk
and he failed and he's stupid, you know. And they took the same risk, you
know, I mean, why? I mean people in the whole world are struggling to get
something out of life, we're trying to be happy, we're trying to obtain things and
we're looking for the way to do it, the method or the, causes, or the strategy for
our lives that will bring us the results that we want. We all get up in the morning
and out of bed for that purpose, for the purpose of going out there and
obtaining what we hope to get and, and we, and apparently we don't understand
the causes very well because we don't succeed.



[student: Isn't that going to an extreme, I mean, they're saying, I mean you still
have to go to work. I mean, if you stay home...]



I didn't say that.



[student:   No, ones gonna send your paycheck home, so you make it sound
like...]



Some people do stay home and get paychecks. [laughter]



[student: I'd like to be one of them.]
[student: How, how can we trust the law of cause and effect if?]



We'll get to that, we'll get to that, that... I'm not touching it yet. What I'm saying
is that the apparent causation going on in that world doesn't work. If you got...
if you walked up to the door of an airplane and the stewardess said, "We almost
got this figured out, you know we almost know what causes metal to fly in the
sky and there's a fifty percent chance you'll make it to Chicago
tonight." [laughter] You know, " We're really close to understanding it and
sure, it falls down half the time, but, but come on you know and there's a good
chance you'll make it." You wouldn't get on the plane. Because they don't
understand the causes for making it fly and you would be afraid to get on the
plane. And what I'm saying is that our whole life is like that, we don't
understand the causes for success, or obtaining money or friendship or, or
anything and everyday we get up, like we go and try different things and they
just don't work. They don't cause what we want, you can see that.



[student: So, so Newton almost had it right, he just goes too far. Instead of
saying, "everyone, I discovered this great thing, there's an absolutely existing
sun out there and the earth is absolutely rotating at an absolute" ... instead if you
backed away a little bit and said, " I made this great discovery about our
collective karma. There's a very strong consistency in our collective karma to us
it will appear on a very regular basis that he sun comes up every day." That
would be much more accurate if he said that.]



Not... the other one is not accurate.



[student: That's what he said, and that's what everyone believes, and, but if you
modify it slightly and say, actually...]



That's right.



[student: ....what his real discovery was, was the amazing consistency in every
ones karma, collective karma.]



Of, of, of towards this one object. So far. [laughter]



[student: ...all the arguments about the parallel universes and all that... [unclear]]




Yeah, there are other realms.



[student: Not other realms, I'm talking abut the existence of a universe, as we
see it, or think it is...]



Oh, no, yeah, when you see the stars move...



[student: The big bang theories and all that sort of stuff.]



It, it, it's possible that the universe was created by a big bang, but all this is saying
is that the big bang was a result of a collective perception, projection.



[student: Projection from who?]



That doesn't meant that there weren't big bangs, there could have been big
bangs. From us now looking back and logically... [cut]     ... does suggest a
handle out there although mistaken.



[student: But that data out there, when you keep looking at it disappears.]



Yeah, science can tell you that, I mean I read books from the fifties were they
were just dicovering about atoms,and they said, you know, when you walk into
a room, your feet never touch this floor. And you know, ultimately, when you
look into the atoms and the atoms... they don't know how light works, still.
They don't know whether it's waves or particles, they, they can't decide. It
doesn't fit either one really.



[student: Michael, can you fit that into one of the chi's of... when you're talking
about like how we perceive things and how those perceptions come to be in our
mind, how we do that...]



Yeah.



[student: That movingness, that result, where does that go?]



{Dunchi}, {dunchi}, almost always a {dunchi}, okay. Meaning that you've seen
the thing before ususally. You know, you know that it's a taxi, you're driving
down the street and things like that, when you, when I say, "Can you imagine
what it felt like for Neil Armstrong to walk on the moon", you have a {drachi}
about that, you may have heard him describe it. You don't know how it felt for
the powder to, to plop under his legs and all that and how it felt to have the
whole black universe around you, but you can imagine it. That's a, that would
be a {chi} of him walking, okay. So what I mean to say is, consider that. If all
things are projections, if all things are only nominal, then change has to be also.
Anytime something moves or changes that has to be also, and and that has to
come from what? A shift in your own projections, which makes sense because
the causes... all causes for all things are constantly increasing and decreasing in
their strength. Every caused thing gets... goes up and own in, in troughs and
peaks, peaks and valleys.         That's the nature of causes, so naturally your
projections should shift. The higher schools, the lower schools couldn't catch
that. They we're okay with the lack of self nature to, to certain objects, but they
couldn't see how, how change itself could be like that and they get stuck, they
get stuck there. They don't see how functionality itself, how the way things
work in the world itself could be a projection. So they come up with, with ideas
to explain those things without using projections and we'll talk about a few of
those, okay. [laughter]
[student: We're also having a mass hallucination.]



{Kunsok}, say, {kunsok}. That's the, that's the, one of the two truths. You
remember the truth means reality. It's one of the two realities. It's what people
translate as relative truth. I hate that word. It has nothing to do with relative.
There isn't any word for, like that in any of the scriptures in reference to that.
{Kunsok} means fake. {Kunsok} means false. Relative truth in this case means
false truth or false reality. Deceptive reality. What does deceptive mean,
Stillwell? I mean, when you say the car dealer deceived me what do you mean?



[student: It means it isn't how it appeared when you bought that baby.]



It wasn't the way it looked to me. He said he's giving you a great deal, when
you get home the car stops working and you figure out that the guarantee was
written for last year, okay. I mean, that's deception and that's exactly the case.
{Namstul di nyestul di trengba}, the way it looks and the way it really is don't
look, what do you call it? Don't jive. They don't... What... there's a nice word...
they don't...



[student: Accord.]



[student: Dove tail, mesh.]



What's the word?



[student: They don't coincide?]



Incon...



[student: I like jive.]
Okay, jive, they don't jive. It's, the way it looks, the way it really is don't
correspond, that the word. [laughter] They don't correspond with each other,
that's deception, that's the meaning of deception. What, why are these objects all
around us, why are they all called {kunsok}?



[student: Because we think the dog is barking because he's hungry.]



We think he's barking, I don't know why, because he want's to bother us or
something. But, but if you hear a dog barking what is it? If, if it's unpleasant to
you.



{student: You did some non virtue, to get that result.]



Yeah, you did some non virtue, you bothered other people.



[student: Yeah, that's all.]



And, and know you have to hear that, it was not out there on it's own. If it gets
quieter for a few minutes and you feel better. And you feel... you know you
feel... it feels like, you feel something nice, in other words, you change from
being irritating to something peaceful, then that's a... that's a shift in your
projections. He didn't stop barking.



[student: So why are all things deceptive?]



Because it looks like he stopped barking, it doesn't look like your mind suddenly
shifted and now that sound doesn't come anymore. It doesn't look like that does
it? It looks like he stopped barking on his own out there, doesn't it? [laughter]
That's, that's the meaning of {kunsok}, that's that's deceptive reality.
[student: That's reasoning though. If I was, was beating someone up, and then
the next day he came around and said I apologize as I read my wife had nothing
to do with you. That, we would say that didn't happen? Or we would say that
was our projection, that would be our projection.]



It's {ja che tepa}, things work, oh it is your projection and that's why it happened,
that's what I'm saying. Because it's your projection, it happened. If you try to
tell me it wasn't your projection and it still happened, I'd say, "Come on, now
you're talking crazy." If you come up to me and say that something happened to
me at work today that wasn't my projection, I'd say, "Yeah, yeah, right. You're
crazy". So that's {kunsok}. I's actually stuck to the {yang dak}. Sometimes they
say the {pay} and sometimes they don't say they don't say the {pay}.



[silence]



{Kunsok} you know, {kunsok} is what ?



[student: False reality.]



Fake truth okay, fake reality, false reality. [laughs] Deceptive reality, I like
deceptive reality. It is real, but it is deceptive. It seems to be one way, but it
really is another way, but after all, it does do something. In that sense it is
reality, deceptive reality. {Nyang Dagpay} means, "right deceptive reality",
right, right, R, I, G, H, T.



[student: That is correct?]



Yeah, yeah. {Lokpay} means, wrong deceptive reality. The example here would
be a pool of water, a lake that you see while you're driving.



[student: A mirage.]
No, a real lake. The example here would be a mirage.



[student:    We could call it accurate conventional reality and inaccurate
conventional reality?]



In other words, do mirages exist?



[student: Sure.]



Are they what they seem?



[students: No.]



But they are {logpay kunsok}.



Do, do pools of water, do lakes exist?



[student: Yes.]



Are they what they seem?



[student: No.] [laughter]



[student: Depends.]



[laughter] No, they are compared to... Pelma la.... they are compared to a
mirage, right? What, can you drink a mirage? Please.
[student: They work.]



Can you drown in a mirage? Okay obviously there's a difference in their reality,
between a mirage and a like. I mean, a lake can do what it seems to do and, and
a mirage can't.



[student: Those aren't changing things the way we we're discussing.]



[student: But this has to do with the perceptions, the correct perception and
incorrect perception.]



[student: It's to do with valid perception.]



Virtually we all agree that a mirage can't drown you and a lake can't. [laughter]
And we agree that this one is what it seems. This one is not what it seems to be
and this one is what it seems to be, right?



[student: On one level.]



Okay, yeah.      But the Madhyumika Prasangika says, you can't make this
distinction. What are you talking about? What are you gonna say that
something... are you gonna say that a lake is what it seems to be?



[student: Conventional reality it is.]



Is a lake ever what it seems to be?



[students: No, no.]
[students: Ultimately not.] [laughter]



Relatively speaking is a lake ever what it seems to be? [laughter] This is, this is
exactly the debate that the two Madhyumika schools have. Precisely the debate
and instead of going through fifty pages of Tsongkhapa, you can listen to
Stillwell. [laughter] Is a lake ever what it seems to be? This is exactly the debate
they had.



[student: Conventionally, yes.]



Conventionally, is a lake ever what it seems to be?



[student: Yes.]



So, ultimately, it's not what it seems to be?



[student: Correct.]



So ulltimately, something exists. Does anything exist ultimately?



[student: No the way it seems.] [laughter]



He's right in a way. Okay, he's right in a way. Okay, relative, relative to what an
Arya sees in the path of seeing directly, this is all wrong. It's silly to make the
distinction, says the Prasangika. It's silly to say a mirage is not what it seems to
be but a lake is what it seems to be, when you talk in relative to the path of
seeing. Relative to that, neither one is what it seems to be, you shouldn't even
make the distinction. It's not a valid distinction. You're not thinking in big time
terms, you're not thinking about, you're not remembering that Aryas see that
everything is not what it seems to be. It doesn't matter if it's a mirage or a lake,
niether one is what it seems to be.



[student: It's like seeing how many inaccurate categories can we create from an
inaccurate category.]



It's a little like that.



[student: How crazy are you? We're a little crazier than... [laughter]]



It's.. here's the debate between the schools. It's, it's a real distinction, but you get
the point, the point is this. When, when we talk about things working and things
causing other things. Does anything work the way you thi... it looks to you?



[student: No. Ultimately?]



No, it's very interesting, because anything works the way it looks to you. Do
you get paid because you went to work? Is that why you got the money?



[student: Conventionally yes, ultimately, no.]



[laughter]



[student: Yes.]



No, it's not true. Allot of people go to work and don't get paid for it. I mean the
company went bankrupt and they wait two weeks and it's Thursday and it's time
to get paid, and I've seen it. I was standing there when the treasurer of the
company was getting roughed up by some people. [laughter] And, and he said
we don't have any money to pay you your checks. They came to work for two
weeks and they didn't get a check, so it's, so it's a {tsa}. You know, that's not how
it works.



[student: Michael, are you saying that the, the distinction that's made in the
Prasangika about correct, valid perceptions is not this distinction?]



Yeah, right, that's nothing to do with this. Madhyumika Prasangika , this, they
say that this distinction is wrong. But that's not what I want to talk about, get
back on the subject, get back on the subject. Does anything in the world work
the way you think is works?



[students: No.]



That's the whole point, that's the whole point. Ultimately that's the whole point.
Nothing works the way you think it does. I go to work. And I made diamond
deals all day today. If I could somehow give the guy a misimpression of what I
mean, basically a lie and then he sells me the parcels cheaper than he should have
and I make an extra five hundred dollars, did the five hundred dollars come
from my lie?



[student: No.]



No connection, no it can't. The nature of five hundred dollars is sweet. The
nature of a lie is sour. They're never gonna create each other. Things never
work the way they look like. Nothing. And that's why we don't get the results
we want. And we lie because we don't understand that. It really is true, if you
wanted to get perfectly contented and wealthy and well fed and respected by all,
just keep your morality. It has nothing to do with how clever you are or how
you manipulate your world. You know, how good you are at wheeling and
dealing. Nothing to do with it. It all depends on your, on your keeping
yourperfections and your morality. That's the only cause of the sweet things.
It's not connected to anything else, but that ain't the way it is. That's why the
Madhdyumika Prasanghika says, "Don't tell me about good investment
strategies and bad investment strategies." The only investment strategy is to
give your money away. Okay, if you want to get a good. If you need a good
investment, be generous, and be generous to holy objects. I mean the best, the
highest thing you can find, be generous to it. If you really want a good
investment strategy that's the only investment strategy. Don't talk to me about
this one didn't work and this one worked. This one was right and this on wasn't
right. They don't work you know that, you can see that. Smart guys go
bankrupt and stupid guys get rich, I can prove it to you. I can take you to meet
some of them. [laughter] It's just. It's got nothing to do with it. But like you
giggle, but tomorrow morning you'll be up again for those... and that's not what
caused it. And you'll forget all of this and you'll go back to believing that other
functionality. It doesn't work. Yeah. If you want a pizza place to open up next
door, give people food. [laughter]



[student: You're not, you know you're it seems to me you're not making a
distinction between conventional reality and ultimate reality here. Are you
intentionally inferring that conventional reality doesn't work, doesn't function,
that only ultimate reality functions?]



No, I'm saying that if, if, if deceptive reality seems to work it's because of karma.



[student: So, you go out. Nina gets up, she goes to work tomorrow, you know,
and puts in her week, gets her paycheck.]



You guys didn't see Nine to Five where this office girl becomes the vice president
because she met this handsome guy and she, you know, nothing to do with her
working, you know. [laughter]



[student: But, would you say though that in conventional reality or deceptive
reality where this is functioning, this is working, would you not even say that?]



No, it works, it only works because of the projections forced on you by your
karma.
[student: I didn't think you could bring this forth that this could hold true?]



Because apparently, it's quite apparent, it seems quite logical to say that there's a
difference in the reality of a mirage, and, and a lake of water one can drown you
and one can't, shhhh. That's, that's not a crazy distinction to use. That, that's not
bad, yeah.



[student: If I get back to dog barking, for instance...]



Please. [laughter]



[student: If that's just your projection then we got nothing to worry about
because there's no dog out there at all barking.]



That's the classic wrong view. [laughter]



[student: So therefore... by what you're saying...]



I never said that.



[student: There's a, there's a projection of a dog, there's a projection of a dog
barking and there's a projection of the rest of you guys in the room here. But if
you are all really...]




I'll give you a projection of a dentist's drill on your nerve in your tooth and we'll
see if you can feel it.



[student: Which is it Michael? Which is it?]
[student: If you are all merely my projection then I guess I'm the only being that
exist then I guess I'm the only being that's exists then I 'm having a projection of
a bunch of other beings talking to me. ]



Because we are you're projection, you are not the only being that exists.



[student: So the...]



[student: Michael, what's the point of not making this distinction? I'm still not
getting that?]



It's, it's I, it's again, I'll say it again, the whole point is this; nothing works the way
you thought it did.



[student: But why is this..]



Why distinguish between good investment strategies and bad investment
strategies when they are all irrelevant, they have nothing to do with strategies.
It's what you gave... whether or not you were generous or not. What I'm saying
is that we all causation at work...



[student: What I'm saying is that throwing out...]



What's so trivial? I'm talking about how to get rich. [laughter]



[student: Maybe not in this lifetime.]



If you're comfortable in this life, at least very comfortable in this life, at least very
comfortable in this life.
[student: Michael, were they trying to distinguish between things that function
in a conventional way and things that don't function?]



That's what they're trying to say, this don't function the way it looks, this does
function the way it looks. This cannot drown you the way it looked like it could,
this can drown you the way it looked like it could.           And Madhyumika
Prasanghika says, they are both bullshit. But if you drown in something it's
because you did something good or bad, it's very interesting. They're, they're
both unreal. They both don't work the way you thought.



[student: But one drowns you.]



It's, ah, the lake doesn't drown you my dear, your karma does. [laughter] And
your projections do. It's very interesting. She knows, she just asked the... that's
the sixty -four thousand dollar question. She really made it clear, I didn't very
make it clear. They say this is wrong because it doesn't work the way you
thought, this is right because it does work the way you thought and you can
drown in it. Prasangika says, you don't drown in anything, honey, it's your own
projections on your... forced on you by your own karma that make you think
that you're in this liquid, drowning. Do you really drown? Oh, yes. Does it
really hurt? Oh yeah. Is it a lake that you thought it was? No. Somebody had a
question. Yeah.



{student: Yeah, the things, doesn't seem to work the way... it includes the karma,
so it's unbalanced to say, " I drown because of my bad karma."]



Oh, it's, it's karma itself is a projection which is consistent, yes, it's always
consistent due to, due to the nature of ignorance.



[student: So if somebody drowns, it's because their karma is unbalanced?]
No, no it's valid because it is a projection. Get out of this thing of saying that
things don't work because they are projections, They do work because they are
projections. If they were not projections they could never change anyway.



[student: But then could the mirage drown you just as sucessfully as the lake?]



It's conceivable.



[student: It happens in Tantra]



[laughter] By the way, what you're getting into, what you're getting into is how
a miracle could occur. What you're, what you're bordering on here, what you're
flirting with is how a person could fly in the sky or how you could wave your
hand and suddenly the sky would change colors or something. It's posssible.
How you could walk on water, all those things are totally quite, quite proper.
That's you're, you're bordering on, you're flirting with the possibility of a miracle
and why miracles are possible. Why they're, why they're, they do work, there
can be miracles. Collective projections of a man walking on water and one guy
losses his... he gets some {tetsang}, "doubt" and he sinks. Yeah. [laughter]



[student: So are you saying that there is a being that serves as the basis of my
perception as a dog. And then because...]



There are parts of a dog.



[student: And in addition to that I have the karma to perceive that being as a
barking thing]



Those parts, yeah.



[student: So it's not just my perception, there's also a being out there, appearing
to me as a dog.]



We're back to the same old question, I'll answer it one more time.



[student: Are there other beings or not?]



Yes, of course. You don't beleive me? I'll punch you in the nose. [laughter]



[student: It's other beings and how they appear to me.]



It's, it's data that is presented to you that suggests the existence of other beings.



[student: Well, the existence of other beings and the existence of other beings
are two different things, which is it?]



Leave it, leave it. It's a {lu matin} I can't anwer that question because you're
stuck on self existence. Your question is based in self existence, I can't answer it.



[student: There's one, there's no beings.]



Either answer I give you, you will take as self existently. That's a classic, un,
unanswered question, which is my pleasure to do, okay, well take a break.



[student: Hey, Mike, can I rephrase that question, can I try to rephrase that
question?]



[laughter] [Tibetan...] When you keep looking for the data, you will never find
it.
[student: No, no I want to ask it differently, so we, we take this data and we
project onto it beings and non sentient things, because it does look like that.]



[student: So, so why is it that we project onto certain data that it is a sentient
being, and not project onto the wall that it is a sentient being?]



Your own karma. Your own karma. And the, the people in the hells see the
mountains on each side of them move closer and squash them.



[student: But there's not living beings in some sort of...]



Not like, not like that. Not like, they don't smile or anything, but they do see
solid mountains shift and move in on them and actually crush them. So they see
that. Okay, so have some...



[student: Michael, can I ... a benefit concert, Tibetan folk music concert, for U. S.
Tibet Committee.]



Okay, so why don't you write on the board and then people will see when it is
and where it is, how much the benefit is.



[student: It's only ten bucks, max.]



[all talk]



[cut]



The lower schools, oh, Ill tell, I'll give you an example. Let's say, when Mrs.
Clinton was running the United States in the early days of the... [laughter] of the
presidency, okay, and, and people said, "He's president, but only in name" , what
does that mean, Bill is president, but only nominally, what does that imply, in, in
everyday speech.



[student: He's not really President. He's not really acting for it.]



He's not really acting as president, she's acting as President. He's got the title,
she's doing the, she's got the authority. That's the implication, and we use that in
everyday language. We say , "He's nominally President, but she's doing all the
actions, she's the one who really has the authority and she's the one who's really
doing something." So, normally, when you say nominally or in name only. It, it
implies in normal everyday English and in Sanskrit and Tibetan, it's not working
the way, it's not really working that way, he's not really doing that thing. When
you say, he gave us that... a raise at work, but it was only nominal, on paper, it
implies that you didn't really get any real money. On paper, or nominally, in
normal English, and even in ancient India implied "not really". And the lower
schools get hung up on that. The, the Mind Only School has this presentation of
three kinds of objects. Some are nominal, some are really functioning. So they
draw that distinction between, if something exists only by a label or a name.
That implies that it's not really working that way. Yeah.



[student: Doesn't that also simultaneously imply that there is some possibility of
there being a real President to which Clinton only partially reaches?]



Well there's... he got the name.



[student: No, but there's an ideal in your mind as if that was a real presidency
that any one could really achieve.]



Yeah, but that's, that's that's okay, I could accept that. But stick, stick to this
thing. So in, in every day English that's the distinction, right? When you say
nominally, it means not really, and the lower schools stick to that distinction.
And the lower schools stick to that. When you say nominally, you don't mean
really. The Madhyumika Prasangika says nominally and therefore really.
[laughs], okay. Just your projection and therefore real. Like a movie and
therefore real. Like an illusion and therefore real, okay. The lower schools say,
"like an illusion and therefore not real", which is what you would normally say.
And they say the same thing with cause and effect. We're talking about the
emptiness of cause and effect. Okay?



{student: The lower schools.}



We're getting there. I'll tell you in a minute.



[silence]



This statement is by the lower Madhyumika school. The lower Madhyumika
school says this. Because they cannot understand the real emptiness of cause and
effect. They say, "We agree things don't have a self nature, but we can't accept
that they have no nature at all." They have a problem with that. They say,
"Okay, I, I understand how things can be empty, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..."
"But, but, but seeds produce plants, that has to be some kind of nature that they
have. That nature has to be inherent in them. When a seed produces a tree, that
proves some kind of inherent nature." They didn't catch that cause and effect is
also a what?



[student: Projection.]



Projection. They said, "That if a seed causes a tree, they must really have some
inherent nature." They couldn't catch that this is also a projection. If and when
you take an action at work and it results in the results you wanted, that's because
of some inherent correctness of the action you took. It's not because of some
projection that you had.



{student: Is what they believe.}
Right. Now you see, all of these differences, it's very, very interesting, by the
way, you can't really understand Buddhism until you understand all the
differences between all the four classic schools. You can't really understand
Buddhism until you can stand up here and say," This is what Abbidharma
believes, this is what Sautantrika believes, this is what Svantantrika believes, this
is what Madhyumika believes, this is what Yogachara believes." If you can't
really explain all the differences, or if you're not aware of all of the differences,
you're not very deep into those concepts, and you'll get... The reason to learn
them all is that they are all very subtle and they are all correct. The best mistakes
to know about are the ones that are very subtle and almost correct, you know.
Who cares about all the obvious mistakes. If you know all the very subtle and
incorrect views, then you really understand your own view. And the thing that
separates the lower schools from the higher schools on almost every point is
their inability to see the emptiness of actions, the emptiness of cause and effect.
It's almost... all the distinctions drawn between the schools are based on their, the
lower schools inability to understand the higher schools explanation of
emptiness. It's interesting, almost all the ideas the the lower schools come up
with that are in correct are based o their misunderstanding of emptiness. You
would be tempted to say, you would be tempted to say that seeds have a nature
to produce trees, independent of what I see or not, independent of my
projections, seeds produce trees. Prasanghika says, "No, if and when a seed
produces a tree, it's only a shift in your own mind, it's only a shift in your own
projection." They can't catch that, they can't go that far, they can understand that
a tree might be my projection or the seed might be my projection. But the tree
growing out of the seed? How could that... It's like quick time video on the
Macintosh, it's so smooth. It looks like the real thing, you know. [laughter]
There's no jags, you know, it doesn't stop, it doesn't seem to be dependent on
me. It seems to come out at it's own speed, it grows, it takes ten or fifteen years
if the tree grows. I mean, it can't be that it takes ten years for one of my
projections to work itself out. I'm sorry, yes it did. That's hard to... that's hard
and they get stuck on that, yeah.



[student: Are you saying that, that karma... excuse me, are you saying that
karma doesn't impact the outside data and cause it to arise in a certain form to be
perceived in a certain form, that karma only is the functioning of your mind.?]



Mind Only school says...
[student: I know.]



You're describing Mind Only School.



[student: Well, I thought that was what you were saying.]



No, [laughs], I'm saying that...



[student: Say that again, what is Mind Only School?]



What am I saying? The Mind Only School says that there's a karma which
creates you proj.... you're, you're perception of a seed growing a tree and that
same karma is creating a seed and a tree growing out there.



[student: But, you, you...]



But the nature of both are... it's a long story, I don't want to mix it up.



[student: But didn't you just say though, that your karma causes.. if a, if a.. tree
grows from a seed, it's only your karma causing your mind to perceive it that
way. But my question is that ; is your karma also causing the outside data to do
something?]



Yeah.



[student: So it's not only your mind.]



But that's not what I want to emphasize.
[student: You just said that there is an outside thing that's occurring?]



Of course, there's some data that's presenting itself to you.



[student: Okay.]



By the way, the Madhyumika Prasanghika school says that is outside data, the,
the Mind Only school says that not outside data. But that's because of the.... I
don't, I don't want to get into it. But, but you say this, okay, I repeat it, I'll repeat
it, and by the way, I mean, we take four years to study this subject, in the
monastery, full time. You know, that's the normal length of time that you would
study this subject. The lower Madhyumika school says, "when you see a seed
produce a tree, it's a seed with it's own nature producing a tree with it's own
nature, it cannot be just my projection." And the higher school says, "That
because it's your projection, because of your projection, the seed appears to
grow the tree. And you can pick fruits from that tree and you can get chubby,
they work. Never think that they don't work. They are illusory and therefore
they work, it's very deep. Okay, last thing for tonight.



[student: When you say the emptiness of cause and effect Michael, you're not
talking about the emptiness of karma are you?]



That's what we want to get to next. By the way, I was just talking about cause
and effect, like trees and seed, now I talking about karma. A good deed and a
good result. Say, {kunshi} [repeat], {kunshi} [repeat]. You remember what
{kunshi} is? Anybody?



[student: Where all the {bakchaks} are.]



Yeah, good. They say that when you do a good deed and when you do a bad
deed that seed goes and parks itself in a certain separate consciousness that you
have, it's not just your eyes, ears, nose, tongue and body and thoughts, there's a
seventh consciousness, it's called {kunshi}. And it's just hanging out there, it's like
a big balloon and every time you do something... create a karma, it's like a
marble and that marble gets thrown in that balloon and it stays there until it
comes out. They, they say, there's a, there's a separate consciousness like that.



[student: Who says that?]



Mind Only school. {Sem sumpa}.



[student: Is that allaiha vinaya?]



Yeah, allaiha visignata, okay. Some people... I think it's translated from Chinese
as... what is that? Storehouse conciseness, storehouse consciousness, that's not
bad. It doesn't reflect the real... It's a meaning translation, and not a word
translation. So {kunshi} is where... that's the place where all those karmic seeds
stay until they choose to pop out and give us some result. You do a good deed,
it puts a seed in the {kunshi} called a {bakchak} and it stays in there and some
day, it flowers and you get the karma back, okay? They have... by the way, does
the, does the higher school of Buddhism accept the idea of a {kunshi}? They say,
"Not necessary, why are you going through all the trouble of saying there's a
{kunshi}?" They said the Buddha said there was a {kunshi}. Oh yeah, there was a
place where the Buddha said there was a {kunshi}, he was just trying to help you
guys, [laughter].    There are places where the Buddha said there is a {kunshi},
there are other places where he said, "I was just trying to help you guys, there is
no {kunshi}". A big debate.



[student: Where did he say there is no {kunshi}?]



I'll look it up for you. Well, he did say there are six and that's all there is. And
Madhyumika Prasanghika says to Mind Only school, "The reason you have to
come up with this {kunshi}, and the reason you were attracted to that statement
by the Buddha and the reason you really strongly believe there has to be this
separate place for the mind... for the karmic seeds to stay, is that you don't
understand the emptiness of karma. You don't understand that when you do a
good deed and get a good result or when you do a bad deed and get a bad
result, that's a projection, it's just your projection. You don't understand that so
you gotta come up with all these weird things and {kunshi's} and stuff like that.
That's also the basis for one major difference between our schools. You never
got it, you didn't understand how when a karma, when a bad deed flowers into a
bad result and when a good deed flowers into a good result, that also is just a
projection.



[student: So is the {bakchak} a projection?]



Is anything not a projection?



In other words, what you're, what you're seeing here... all this whole discussion
tonight, you didn't have all this trouble when I talked about Mike the monk, you
know, that was a pretty easy example, or the pot. You were okay on that and so
is most of the schools. But when you get into why things change, or why I get
money, or why an airplane takes off, or, or why a seed grows into a tree, or why
when I do a good deed, I get something good back a hundred years later. You,
your mind starts to bump into self existence again, you want to believe in.. .you
kind of want... you kinda think it has to be that way, or it couldn't work that
way. I other words you bump into some objects where you think, well that's not
a projection. I mean, I can see where Mike the monk might be a projection, but
not when the sun comes up or, or not when I do a good deed and I get a good
result a hundred years later, that's no projection.        In other words, we're
exploring the limits of your ability to accept the idea of projection. Sooner or
later you bump into things that you think can't be your projection. And
Madhyumika Prasanghika says "come on, come on keep going, everything has
to be a projection". Yeah.



[student: Then what, what, how are these things alive?]



They work because they are a projection.
[student: So how does the projection continued?]



As your projection.



[student: You mean how is it carried?]



How, where does it store, where does it stay. By the way, they say in your mind
consciousness. You don't have to posit a separate consciousness. That doesn't
answer the real question. That too is a projection.



[student: [unclear]]



No, that too is a projection. It's staying is also a projection. It's not, it's, it's being
stored somewhere and not running away and not dying out is a projection.
[laughs]



[student: How can you account for the consistency, the inevitability of cause and
effect? It rules.]



Yeah, I understand, it's similar to Toms question. Yeah, I understand. You and
what Tom was saying was, "If things are just a projection, then why is it that
every sentient being has the same projection about karma?" When you do a
good deed, you get a good result. Why couldn't the opposite be true? If
everything is just a projection, then why can't the opposite be true? Why can't
the opposite happen? Why can't there be a miracle and you do a bad deed and
you get a good result? If they're all just my projections? It's deeply tied to the
nature of ignorance.



[student: How so?]



[laughter]
[student: So even the concept that...]



[student: Which is deeply tied...]



What I'm saying is that there can be laws. There can be laws that always work
the same way.



[student: But it's consistent to the Buddha too and he hasn't got it yet.]



Right.



[student: Well so?]



[laughter] He's outside of karma, he's outside of dirty karma. We call it stainless
virtue and monlam. By the way, I should say, just in case you ever get in a
debate in the monastery, karma normally means a the cause, a cause for
suffering. Normally, in a debate or in a book, you don't talk about the Buddhas
karma.



[student: You're the one that's talked about it.]



I know.



[student: So even laws like; a good deed can only produce a good result is
merely a projection, and someday we will rise to the day when we realize that
that doesn't even work.]



I didn't say that.
[student: If it doesn't work then it doesn't exist.]



I say it works because of that. It always works because it's a projection.



[student: So then there must be some nature to a good deed.



[student: That doesn't have to do with your ignorance or the Buddha wouldn't
have the same thing.]



That's the nature of emptiness.



[student: It doesn't have to do with ignorance or the Buddha woudn't have the
same thing.]



Yeah, I understand, he wouldn't have the same karmic results that we... they
don't call them {naming}, they don't call them karmic ripening or something like
that.



[student: But there is still this good leads to good.]



Yeah, there are. There are.



[student: So how does that work ? What guarantees that? ]



It's, it's based in.... it's based in... [laughs]



[student: [unclear]]
{student: I know you're gonna say that you don't know.]



It's based in the nature of ignorance.



[student: But the Buddha isn't ignorant.]



I understand that, ignorantly.



[student:     It, it could... could one say that in the way that intellectual
understanding of emptiness leads to the direct perception of emptiness that
believing in the law of karma leads to the place beyond karma?]



You could say that. I mean observing the law, I mean we, we make a distinction
between believing in them and observing them. Observing them is [unclear].
By the way, we'll say one more thing, she brought it up, okay. There were
schools that said... the other classic difference... now you get to the real I mean
why do we talk about all this tonight ? What's the real point? It has to do with
karma. And it has to do with the classic of all wrong views. I mean, what would
you imagine, especially in Tsongkhapa's eyes and Nagarjuna's eyes, and
Chandrakirti's eyes, the big guns of... the big guns...



[student: Morality.]



... of Madhyumika, okay. The classic is that, I told you the hotel story right?



[student: Yeah.]



[student: Morality... [unclear]]
Joanna Macy always talks about...



[students: Oh right, yeah.]



They go to a Buddhism conference for women or something, a, a girl, they all go
out to check out, one of the girls drops her suitcase, it pops open and all of these
hotel towels fall out and she gets all red and she says, "ha, ha, ha, it's all empty
anyway. So it doesn't matter that I stole them." So that's the ultimate wrong
view. Because things are empty, they don't work, meaning karma, and I don't
need to do the six perfections, I don't need to follow bodhisattva morality, I don't
need to follow vowed morality. It's all empty, so it doesn't matter. Ultimately, it
can be anything I want it to be, therefore I can do anything I want and that's he
meaning of Tantra. You know, I can do any bad deed I want, and if it's all empty,
I can make it turn out any way like. I mean, that's a classic wrong view.
[laughter]. No, no... classic wrong view, isn't it, isn't it? I mean, it's the classic
wrong view of what you hear about it, you know... "Oh, I'm beyond all that." I
read a, a, a, I read Tsongkhapa on that today, and he said, you know, here in
Tibet some people think, "I don't need bodhisattva morality, I don't need my
normal morality, I'm a tantric practitioner", you know. He said, "That's like
eating poison, you now, that's like insane". You know, they're like putting a gun
to their own head, it's crazy. It does, because everything is empty, you must
follow those rules, you must observe karma. Yeah.



[student: What is the... of these moral codes? Who came up with them?]



I'll tell you in a sec, okay. By the way, I just want to tell you that there was this
Chinese monk named Hashang, which I've mentioned him before. Apparently
he, apparently in Tibet he, he expoused this view, and he was one of the people
who had that problem at that time. And she asked... this is very very important,
you know, generally Buddhism says that you have to investigate everything,
don't believe what the Buddha says. The laws of karma, you can understand in a
logical way, roughly. You know, you can understand that a good thing or a
sweet thing, or a thing that helps other people, a good thing can't give you a
sour result of pain or... mental or physical pain, you can understand that. And
you can understand that if you harm someone, or even yourself, cause someone
else pain, that the result cannot be any kind of happiness or pleasure. Cannot be,
they are inconsistent with each other. But the exact workings of karma, why, if
you do certain deeds, which in your society are acceptable, they are going to
cause you suffering. What certain bad deeds that don't seem to be particularly
harmful to anyone, are going to bring you heavy suffering. The Buddha... that's
in the class... the third class of reality. Do you remember those three stages of
reality? There's evident reality. Blue, yellow, white. Whose there? Emptiness
itself. Then there's a deeper level of reality, which is even more difficult to
perceive then emptiness.        And that's the workings of karma. So if you are
smart, if you are a good, educated Buddhist, on the subject of karma and what it
will bring you, you just throw yourself to the Buddhas feet and say outline it for
me and say, "Outline it for me, tell me what is good to do and what's bad to do."
Tell me what, what, what will create what kind of result. We don't have the
power to see it directly. And that's why the Buddha taught the vinaya. That's
why he taught the Jataka... birth stories of the Buddha. Those are not just nice
friendly stories for children. Those were taught with the specific intention of the
Buddha telling us what kind of deeds create what kind of results, because we
could never figure it out, in detail. It's beyond us. It's a more deep reality than
emptiness. If you're smart. If you get to a certain level in your Buddhist
education, just sit down and learn what the Buddha said was moral and what
was not. I, I, that's the best advice that I can give. Just study the books on
morality, even if you can't clearly say why that would be. That's not a very
Buddhist answer, right? [laughs] But that's why he spent sixteen volumes of the
Kangyur, sixteen thousand folios just explaining what good deeds cause good
results and what bad deeds cause... you have to study morality that way. You're
gonna do it next class. The next class is on the Bodhisattva vows, and you have
to dig into it, you have to learn them one, by one, by one, by one, you couldn't
figure out everything by yourself. There's not a place for logic and intuition and
extrapolation. It's a place to just go and to listen to what the Buddha says, you
know, this is right and this is wrong. Trust me, this is going to cause some
suffering for you. I don't care if this is acceptable in this society right now. I
don't care if this is not acceptable, it's proper. You have to trust the Buddha on
these things. Then we really have to learn them, we have to take a great interest
in learning all of the codes of behaviour that the Buddha outlined. They're very
fun, and when you start doing them, if, if it's right then you get some kind of
pleasant result. So that's all, we'll stop right there. Mr. Carleigh.



[prayer: short mandala]
[prayer: dedication]
[cut]
950505.aaa
Geshe la Michael Roach
The Diamond Cutter Sutra