ACI 6 «Сутра Алмазного Огранщика», занятие 3

Class @

[Umze and students: recite the dedication in English.]

That verse was written by Nagarjuna. A little bit more about where we left off
yesterday because that was pretty confusing I think. [laughs] And then by the
way I will answer the question on your homework that I didn't ... never talked
about, okay? [laughs] [laughter] Usually at work I get like twenty phone calls in
the morning, you know, [laughs] [laughter] But I wanted to talk more about the
idea of projection and how it works ... projections onto parts, okay and I wanted
to say a little more about how it ties into ethics. Because that's really necessary.
We'll talk about that very briefly. Like what ... what does ethics have to do with
emptiness, you know ... and specifically if you're trying to be a bodhisattva and
you're trying to practice the six perfections ... they say that you have to do them
with wisdom. You know, that if you practice the six perfections with wisdom
then they're really perfections and if you don't then they're not. So what's the
difference. Let's say like I'm I'm got my .. I always talk about my boss because
it's most ... it's my greatest spiritual practice is learning not to be angry at my
boss. So, it's a real example. You know, I'm supposed to be practicing the
second ... is it the second? ... the third ... perfection ... what's that? Patience which
means not getting angry ... and I'm supposed to be practicing that. So how does
understanding emptiness help me when the boss comes in and starts screaming
at me. And I was talking the other night ... like I think it was Tuesday ... I mean
the boss came and screamed at me for like an hour. I mean like for a straight
hour, you know, about things I should have done or didn't do and I'm so
irresponsible to be running away to California without all of these things done
and ... [laughs] [laughter] and can he have the phone number? No. [laughs]
[laughter] ... and ... and could I cancel it or could I move it or you know, like that.
And really really getting angry at me ... really saying crazy things. So what's ...
what's the difference between being patient without wisdom and being patient
with wisdom, you know. What's the difference between being ... not being
angry with knowledge of emptiness ... how does emptiness help me at that
moment? And I think that's really why we're all here, you know. That's
supposed to be the punch line. If you can relate it to to removing your mental
afflictions then you'll be happy. And if you can't then there's no reason to study
emptiness. It just becomes like something in a college that you study and there's
no relevance to anybody. It sounds cool. It's mysterious and doesn't do any
good. [laughs] So you have to find out how that relates and that's exactly where
we are in the sutra. In this next reading the Buddha ... the Buddha is talking to
Subhuti, and he says, "You know if you if you do the perfections without
wisdom it's like that, but if you do them with an understanding of emptiness ...
well then the goodness that you create ... the good energy that you create ... the
good karma that you create by doing that is is uncountable. And then he starts
giving this description of what it's like if you tried to measure the good karma
you collect by doing the perfections with an understanding of emptiness and he's
and he's trying to give Subhuti a example of what would the number be, you
know. Like, what ... how many pounds of karma would you create, you know.
And Buddha is trying to think of an example to tell Subhuti what the difference is
between the karma you collect if you're just patient with your boss and the
karma you collect if you're patient with an understanding of the emptiness of the
emptiness of the situation. So he says, "If you were to do a perfection with an
understanding of emptiness then the measure of the good karma that you
collect" ... and then he like pauses and he says, "What is the distance to the" ... I
don't know ... "to the east" [laughs] okay? East right [laughs] "What's the
difference ... what's the difference from the point where you and I are sitting,
Subhuti, to infinity?" You know, like if I go east, if I travel a mile every day and I
travel forever, how far is that? You know, would that be easy to ... to ... could
you measure that? And he says that {say lawa ma enlo} he says ... this is the
Buddha talking ... for whom nothing is difficult ... he says, "It wouldn't be
easy," [laughs] you know, "that would be something a little hard to do. It would
be hard to measure from where we're standing east forever." You know, he
said, "You couldn't measure that." And then he does the same thing with the
west, and the south and the north and up and down. He says, "Subhuti try to
imagine" ... he's trying to get Subhuti to imagine infinity. He's trying really hard
to get Subhuti to imagine what it would like ... what infinity is like ... and he says,
"Just keep going east forever and then after you're done with that go west
forever and then go up and down forever." And then he says, "That many miles
would be the would be a number that you use to measure the good karma you
collect by doing the perfections with understanding emptiness." okay "through
understanding emptiness." So just not getting mad at your boss, because you
went to hear the Dalai Lama talk and he said, you know, "Your enemy is you
friend and [laughs] your boss is screaming at you ... it's a precious opportunity."
And you know, ... [laughter] and just to try to be patient in a bad situation is one
thing ... to understand the emptiness of that situation and therefore be patient is
a totally different thing. And the good karma that is created is infinitely
different. So what's the difference? You know, it use to really bother me. I use
to really wonder, you know. Okay I'm doing my good karma the wrong way.
It's hard enough for me to do a good karma. Now these lamas are telling me I'm
not doing it the right way, you know. [laughs] You know, and I have to be
keeping my mind on something else while I'm doing it or else it's not very
powerful. In fact, it's even a cause for more samsara, you know. A good deed
done without an understanding of emptiness ... it creates a pleasant result in the
future which is more samsara, you know. It's a good ... it's like getting a BMW
but still being in samsara, you know. And so it messes up my life. It's hard
enough for me to be good. Now they're telling me if I'm not good the right way
it doesn't matter anyway. You have to be aware of the emptiness of the
situation. You have to see the emptiness of what's going on. So what is the
emptiness? Okay. And we'll just do it very quickly and then we'll we'll keep
doing it all week long until it becomes a habit, okay. The emptiness of a situation
is this. We talked about ... if you were there Friday night we talked about it.
This is a real example. This happened to me Tuesday or so. I I sit in a certain
chair. There's a guy on one side of me who like could care ... they don't know
me very well and and they don't care whether I'm getting yelled at or not,
frankly. There may be other people in the room who do know me well and
don't like me very much and if I got yelled at then they would be kinda happy.
That woul be sorta of nice. So the boss comes in and he starts yelling at me for
going to California when I haven't finished my work, you know. And and for
me that's a very unpleasant experience. That that experience is is unpleasant. By
definition ... what's the definition of bad karma? What's the definition of bad
karma?       Yeah, it's just any action which as a karmic result brings you
suffering.okay. That's the definition of bad karma. It's very interesting. Bad
karma is defined as {nama de ....} ... some kind of action which sometime in the
future will produce an unplesant result for you, okay. So that moment I'm
experiencing the result of a bad karma. If I don't like what he's saying, if it hurts
me, then by definition the cause of it was a bad karma, okay. Now the guy next
to me ... there this guy sitting on my right, he's hearing the same words come
out of my boss' mouth. He's hearing exactly the same words coming out of my
boss' mouth. He's busy. He doesn't care about me either way and for him it's
neither pleasant nor unpleasant. So for him it's neutral. It's a neutral event The
same event for him is something he could care less about, you know. Okay
some kind is getting yelled at. He's got other work to do. He's not even paying
much attention. So for him it's a neutral event. Then the guy on my other side
who doesn't like me ... these same angry words ... are producing what? ...
pleasure. So for him these same angry words are a result of what? Good karma.
It's very interesting. [laughter] Really. Really. For him it's the result of a good
karma. If he's enjoying it. That's a big if, you know. If he if he something nice to
him. If he thinks this is something good. If it strikes him as something
extremely pleasant ... that Roach is finally getting it, you know. That's a ... that's
actually a good karma for him. It's a result of a good karma. Must be.
Definition. There's nothing good that ever happens in your life that does not
result from a your own good karma. Cannot happen. And there's nothing bad
that's that's not a result of you bad karma.
Can't be. So we so we have a strange situation here. We have one object called
the boss and he's pleasant, unpleasant and neither at the same time. Okay. One
thing is pleasant, unpleasant and neither at the same time. If fact he's probably
both too. You've got also impossible situations. He's pleasant, he's unpleasant,
he's pleasant and unpleasant, and he's neither pleasant nor unpleasant. Okay, all
at the same time. Is that possible? I mean, we have this debate. The first debate
that kids have in the monastery is called {kardo karma}. It called white color, red
color. And you have this huge debate about whether one thing can be all right ...
all white and all red at the same time. You know and there's this huge ... these
kids come in and "Had did I do?" you know, [laughs] [laughter] And it's a
definite ... they're really excited and you hear them doing it all day long, you
know. Could this pole be all red? No. Why? It's all white, you know. [laughter]
And and it can't be white and red at the same time. It can't be all white and all
red at the same time, okay. So how can the boss have two contradictory
characteristics, you know. How can the boss be pleasant, unpleasant , both
unpleasant and un ... and pleasant, and neither pleasant nor unpleasant all at the
same time? How can one object be that? It's impossible!

[student: [unclear]]

[laughs} Then he'd be nothing, right? I don't know. But how can he be ... how
can he seriously have two totally opposite characteristics at the same time. How
can he be both?

[student: Dependent on your projections [unclear]]

Yeah, it's coming from the observer. Okay. And that's a ... it sounds stupid. I
mean, normally the things that are true are so simple that they sound stupid,
okay. That is the proof of emptiness. That's the proof of emptiness, okay. That's
the proof that being pleasant or unpleasant is ot a characteristic of him. Okay, it
does not belong to him. Those that quality is not his. Being pleasant or
unpleasant is not a quality of his. It doesn't belong to him. It's coming from
some place else,you see. What about the data? Is the data there? I mean, is there
a red face? Is there some loud noises coming out of that round thing? [laughs}
You know. Yeah, the data is there, okay. There is sense data there. There're
loud noises coming out of the red round thing and there's sweat breaking out on
the on the red face, you know. There really is. There is data there. But three
different beings in the room are interpreting the data in three different ways.
They are having totally different experiences of the same data. Yeah?

[student: [unclear]]

What data? [laughter] What data? I'm not going to get that far, okay. I'm not
going to go that far. Let's assume that the red face is there, okay. Is it there
from it own side? We have to talk about it. We'll talk about that, okay. It's a
good question. Let's leave it alone. Let's be farmers today, okay. That's really
what Nagarjuna would say. He'd say, "Let's stick to one level. Let's not go to the
second level." okay. But you have to ask that question later. It has to come. We
have to decide that later. But right now let's stick to one level, you know. Let's
say there is really out there some data ... red face ... loud noise ... loud mouth
opened very wide ... and [laughs] and and that three different people are
interpreting that data in three in three different ways. That is the emptiness of
the boss' the boss' face. It's neither pleasant or unpleasant, both or neither ... by
itself. By itself it's it's none of the above. Okay. With with the participation of the
three minds that are watching him, it becomes something, okay. It become
some kind of a ... it becomes either pleasant, unpleasant or neither. Okay,
depending on the person who's observing. Now that the sixty four thousand
dollar question and really we could end the classs after that ... but you're not so
lucky ... why do three different people see him three different ways. You know,
he is empty. I prefer the word blank. I think blank is a much better word, you
know. {Tomba} could be called blank. I kinda prefer the word blank. He is a
blank screen. That's what emptiness means, okay. He is blank. He's not
pleasant or unpleasant or or neither from his side. He's a blank screen. and
three different minds are projecting three different movies on that blank screen.
Why? Karma. Okay. One one mind was mean to someone in the past and on
this blank screen is forced to see something which is unpleasant. It's forced by its
past karma. By the way, when I say forced, it's very very important. That's
that's the rub with projections. They ain't voluntary. We wish, you know. You
can't go look at this boss who's yelling at you and it hurts and say, "Oh, this is just
my projection. I think I'll have the opposite projection." ... you know ... "Let's ...
since everything's just a projection, why don't we project a nice boss this
morning." You know. You can't do it. Go try. I always tell people go to the
dentist ... let him drill your teeth, you know. Try to project pleasant, you
know ... you know. Let's when people say ... when people give me that wrong
view and they say everything's empty and they if you had the right will power
everything would be jolly. I say come, "Let me drill your teeth." You know
[laughter] "Just give me five minutes with a drill and you your molars" ... you
know "And and you project and I'll drill" you know [laughs] [laughter] and you
know "And we'll see how it goes." you know. It's it's not will power, okay. It's
not something you can decide. It is not and you know that. Because like when
you have a really bad headache or something's really going bad in your life you
pray ... you you want more than anything that it would stop and it doesn't. So
it's not up to your will power. It not something you can ... it's forced on you.
Your projections are forced on you ... by your past karma. You have no choice.
Okay, you don't have a choice in the present, right? But you have a choice ... in
the future, okay. You can ... if you know the principles of projections and how
projections are planted you can you can choose your projections for the future.
You can't do much about the ones that are happening now. Okay. If you could
then the Buddha would have taught that method and no one would be suffering.
What the Buddhist is a masochist ... sadist? You know. Does he know how to
make you stop suffering in a five minutes and didn't teach us? You know. Is he
just holding out on us to see ... like squishing a bug you know. Let's see how bad
it hurts, you know. I mean, he's not crazy and he's not insensitive. He has
compassion. If there was a way to teach you emptiness and then five minutes
you didn't have any suffering, he would have taught it. He didn't teach it. Okay.
He taught ethics. He taught how to be good. He taught how to make good
karma. Yeah?

[student: In the longjong [unclear}}

It's very interesting. He said that for example in the mental training texts they
teach you ... like if your boss is sitting there screaming at you ... can't you
conceive of him as a teacher? ... and say, "Okay, this guy is screaming at me and
it is unpleasant but let's see if I can get a lesson out of it" ... you know ..."Let's see
if I can learn something from it." That's true and if you could succeed in it it
would be a result of your good karma and if you couldn't succed at it it would be
a result of your bad karma. Really it's the same thing again. Because some
people succeed at it and some people don't. It is true that certain extraordinary
people can go into a state of meditation and you could put ... stick a knife into
their arm and they won't budge. They won't move. But that's again a result of
the same projection. They are able ... they are forced by their past karma to
have a projection of not having pain or being able to

[pause]

fact of the pain. You know, I mean it doesn't change the fact that he's unpleasant.
You're just using the unpleasantness for something good. But it doesn't change
the fact that the boss is unpleasant to you. I mean, you can use the pain for
something useful. But we're talking about we talking about ... could you remove
the pain in the first place? You know. there are two things you can do with pain.
You can either put up with it and learn from it, which is useful but I think most of
us would rather just not to have it in the first place and still know the lesson we
were supposed to learn. [laughter].

You know, really, seriously. I mean you have to think that way when you're
talking about emptiness. It's possible that you could have learned the same
lesson from a nice sweet lama and that your mind was ready to learn it and
wouldn't that be better than having it learn the lesson in a nasty way, you know.
What I'm saying is that all things are possible because all things are empty and
anything could have happened. But I we'll get into it. We'll get into it more.
Yeah?
[student: You talked about the co-worker who [unclear] bad karma [unclear]
because something bad happened to you]

Yeah. No. What the pleasant sensation he had from watching it.

[student: How could that be the karma of watching something unpleasant
happening to some one else?]

If he enjoys it, it's the result of good karma. I always bring up and I don't like to
make a dirty example but I bring up the example of rape, okay. And I I'm not,
it's it's a dirty example but it's it's makes the point. The person doing the rape is
is having pleasure ... normally. The person getting raped is having a terrible ...
suffering. If the person raping the other person is having pleasure that's a result
of a good karma. They are they are reaping the result of a good karma. Strictly
from the point of view of that pleasure. From the point of view that they
wanted to do a rape and from the point of view of the rape itself they are going
to have incredible suffering. It's going to produce incredible suffering but you
have to have the distinction between the result of the past deeds and the cause of
the future suffering ... happening in the same event. The same event being ... I
always say to people ... we did this in Central Park with a fifty dollar and the
diamond dealer ,if you remember [laughs]. My boss tells me go out and lie ... go
out and lie to this guy ... and and we'll make an extra fifty collar off this diamond,
you know. And I go out and I lie. And the guy sells the diamond for too little
and we make an extra fifty dollars. Is the fifty dollars the result of the lie? Can
not be. Can not be. It's an illusion. And and that illusion causes all sentient
beings to suffer constantly. That's the story of our life, you know. It's not
connected. There's no connection. The fifty dollars came from some kind of
generosity that I did in the past. The lying is definitely going to cause me
suffering in the future. But they can happen at the same time. They can happen
in the same event. Let me go a little farther and then I'll answer some questions
okay. So three guys are watching the boss. One guy is having the ripening of a
good karma. He's enjoying the situation. By the way, he's collecting bad karma.
In the future he's going to have bosses screaming at him. But right now he's
having a ripening of good karma. Because by definition he's enjoying it. If he's
enjoying it it has to be a ripening of a good karma. The second guy could care
less. And me is sitting there having suffering ... a lot of suffering. What is the
practice of patience at that moment? How do I practice the perfection of patience
and understand emptiness at the same moment. You tell me.

[student: by not [unclear]]
Yeah. It's called ... well I like to call it the perpetuation, you know. Am I going to
perpetuate this thing or not? What is the normal reaction to someone screaming
at you? Scream back. Why is he screaming at me? I screamed at someone in the
past. What's the best way to meet another screaming boss in the future? Scream
back, you know. [laughs] What's the natural reaction to a screaming boss?
Scream back. What's the word for samsara in Tibetan?                   {korwa} It's self
perpetuating circle. It's exactly the point of samsara. That's exactly the point of
the word for samsara. The point is that your natural reaction is exactly what
brings him back in your future [laughs], you know. If you want to see this boss
again, like that ... in fact much more times ... yell back ... because it's a definitely ...
it's the perfect and exact and precise way to have this boss screaming at you
again in the future. If you want him to come back, if you want to perpetuate it,
then respond with the same kind of violence. And he'll definitely come back ...
and you'll get to do it again and again and again and again [laughs] you know. If
you want to break the cycle, which means breaking the first link of dependant
origination ... of in that wheel of life. It surrounds the wheel of life. That's the
whole point. How do you break it at link number one? What is link number
one? It's the blind guy. It's ignorance. It's not understanding the emptiness of
this boss yelling at you. It's not understanding the emptiness of the boss yelling
at you. You can break the wheel there. You can smash the wheel there. If you
cut off number one the other eleven wither away. What what do you do? What
do you do when he's screaming at you? Just shut up. [laughs] [laughter] You
know, take the bad karma, let it ripen and don't create new ... and he'll go away.
He must go away. He'll be forced out of your life. Whew! Yea! [laughs] You
know. He's gone! You know, and that's the only way to get rid of a screaming
boss by the way. It's the only way. It is the only way. Is just not to scream back.
Okay. And then eventually it will wear out and there won't be any screaming
bosses. And that's that's breaking the wheel of life.             That is smashing link
number one. That's how to to practice the perfections with understanding
emptiness. At the moment of anger and that's when Buddhist practice kicks in ...
hopefully.       That's when you do your Buddhist practice. It ain't in your
meditation room in the morning, okay. It's at the moment of heat when he
starts opening his mouth, you know and you say empty. [laughter] [laughs]
You just think of him as empty. It will not help at all. Your heart will still start
pumping and you'll still start thinking of something to say back to him. But if
you remember empty and at that moment you think empty and you say, "What
the hell am I saying empty for? [laughter] Oh, it means that he's screaming at
me because some kind of past karmic seed is ripening in my mind. He does not
exist out there as unpleasant on his own" If he did ... what? Three people in
that ... three chairs would be having the same reaction.            If the ... if his
unpleasantness was a quality of him ... if he was self existently unpleasant ... then
all three people would have the same reaction ... always. And every one he ever
met would have the same reaction. But they don't. So he's empty. And and
being unpleasant is not a quality of the boss. It is not a quality of his. It is a
quality ... it's being projected by my mind onto sense data. Onto certain data and
the same data could have been interpreted two differ ... two other ways by two
different minds and they are. And they were. And that proves the emptiness of
the boss. And it also proves how to ... how to practice the six perfections with
understanding emptiness. It just makes sense and that's how you do it. Now
doing it is a different thing, right? Okay. Did you have some questions? Yeah?

[student: The way you [unclear] what is being perceived as a projection on the
screen, that you haven't gotten this [unclear] that the screen doesn't exist in the
same [unclear]]

I don't want to go that far. That's her question, you know. I don't want to go ... I
could go into the fact that his face is not there. You know. I mean there is the
emptiness of his face which is that in our realm ... sharing the same basic kinds of
karma to be a human ... we will generally interpret the same data as a face. But if
there was a roach ... which in New York there often is ... sitting on top of the
desk and he looked up at the at the same sound, he wouldn't see a face. He's in a
different realm. He is a differ ... he has a different set of karma and he's not even
able to interpret those shapes and colors as face. To him it's just this thunderous
crashing noise and he better get under the table or he's going to get squashed,
you know. But he doesn't interpret it as face or boss or or guy who signs the
checks next week or ... he can't interpret anything like that. He's in a different
realm. And his karmic seeds are so totally different. He doesn't even project
face or a person. So yeah. There is the emptiness of even his being a person.
Depending on who's watching. But I didn't want to get into that that. [laughs]
Do you have a question?

[student: Could you [unclear} dependent origination]

The ... in the higher schools ... dependent origination only means the process of
projection. That is dependent origination. It's just a process of of me ... of my
karmas forcing me to project a certain look on him. Forcing me to interpret that
same information, which is just lines and mouth and noises as as someone who's
mad at me and I feel bad. You know. That is dependent origination in the
highest interpretation.    We presented three interpretations yesterday. They
correspond to different of the four great schools of India and in the highest
interpretation, the true meaning of dependent origination is is that process I just
described. My karmic seeds are forcing my mind to interpret him in a certain
way. Is it real? It's real in the sense that it hurts. I mean go stand in front of a
car and see if it hurts, you know. It's a projection but it breaks your bones and
that hurts. I mean it's real in that sense. Is it artificial in the sense that you are
projecting it? Yes. Does it really hurt? Oh, yeah. You know. So you can't ... it
doesn't help to sit ... I'm not suggesting that, knowing this, you should stand in
front of a car and as you get hit say, "This is my projection. I ge ...I'll pretend it
doesn't hurt much." I I didn't say that. Your karma will force you to project
broken leg and broken arm and intense pain. And it will ... that projection will
go on for a few months afterwards until the karma wears out. So it is artificial in
the sense that you are projecting it. It ain't artificial in the sense that it hurts or
doesn't hurt. It will and you cannot change it by will power. It's it's up to your
karmic seeds. You're at the mercy of your karmic seeds. Yeah?

[student: Are you saying that the process of projecting is [unclear]]

Yep.



SIDE TWO

It does not have any quality. [cut] Process of projection occurs in at a mental
level.

[student: [unclear] logic [unclear] but isn't [unclear] that mental consciousness
preceded by visual consciousness?]

Hum.

[student: Preceded in terms of the time]

But visual consciousness is mental.

[student: Visual consciousness is mental. What does the eyeball do? Why do you
need it?]

They say that the eye ... the function of the power of the eye which is called
{mickey wangbo} is just to reflect the object that's out there. Okay
[student: Okay the visual consciousness is mental?]

Yes, consciousness is mental.

[student: Does the visual consciousness precede the mental consciousness?]

Yeah

[student: And the individual consciousness [unclear]]

It is infected by the projection. Yeah. The visual consciousness is a projection.
How's that?

[student: But that doesn't answer where the object comes from}

No [laughs]

[student: it must exist in the moment prior to the effect which is a collection of
the individual consciousness]

Where did the data come from ... you mean?

[student: Uh in essence if you're saying that it has to be a projected in order to
exist ... I'm saying it had to exist one moment prior to being perceived]

How do you know that it existed in the moment prior to being perceived?

[student: by [unclear]]

No. By using logic. Yeah. [laughs] This is a little obscure ... anyway [laughs] but
it's good. You know that the thing ... you know that an object had to exist a
minute before you saw it because by logic. If you you're aware of something
you know that the thing must have been there the moment before. So he's
saying, "Wasn't the thing there a moment before without your projection?" I
say, "How do you know that?" He says, "By logic". I say the logic itself is a
projection. Okay. The object of the logic ... the object of the reasoning is again a
projection. Yeah?

[student: There's nothing there ...]
I didn't say that! [laughs]

[student: [unclear] since yesterday because you keep saying there's nothing
there except your projection]

I didn't say that. I said there's data   ... I didn't say there was nothing there.
There're data there.

[student: There's nothing there ultimately but there is something there
conventionally. It has to be something there or you're there's no difference
between projection and imagination.]

That's a big debate in Madhyamika, you know and we can talk about that.

[student: You can imagine a rabbit with whatever ... you know it looks like a
hippopotamus , you can do anything in your imagination but you cannot
necessarily find that object outside of your imagination.]

In that case you're projecting an imagination.

[student: what?]

In that case you're projecting an imagination.

[student: Fine, you're projecting an imagination.]

Onto color and shapes which you imagine in your mind.

[student: The color and shapes are existing outside ... whatever there is ... exists
outside or you couldn't be projecting anything like this.]

[laughs] This is what the lower Madhyamika schools says. [laughs] [laughter]
Really. Seriously. It's a big debate.

[student: That the mind only ... is that what you're saying?]

No I didn't say ... I didn't say that. I didn't say that. They say that there's no
outer objects at all. I say there are outer objects and you're projecting them.
[student: [unclear]]

[laughs] No, it's a big debate. It's a huge debate. It's it's the difference between
the two Madhyamika schools. One school is is adamant that there must be some
basis outside of projection. There must be. You know, I understand that I'm
projecting onto a face, but isn't that face there without my projection? Doesn't
that face exist without my projection? And then I said no, because an insect
doesn't project that ... the insect doesn't interpret those same data as a face at all.
Again it's a karmic projection. Doesn't project it as the boss' face. Doesn't
interpret it as the boss's face.

[student: No it has a different intelligence. All the people that are in that room
project it as the boss' face. They all see that. They may not see the boss' face ...
they might not have the same reaction to it but they all agree that the boss is
there yelling]

Right and the insect doesn't because he's in a different realm. He doesn't see a
boss' face. He sees a ...

[student: Something else there]

No he does see some data ... he sees he sees huge things twenty times as big as
him ... the face ... and he and he hears loud noises and he interprets it as a as a
threat to his life. This is a life threatening event. It's not an angry boss's face. It's
a it's a life threatening ... it's another one of life threatening events in the life of a
roach in in New York. [laughter] and he better ... and he better get under the
table quick. You know, because he's in a different realm, he has a different set of
karmic seeds that are forcing him to project a different kind of of result.

[student: But he projected here, he doesn't project it over there]

Right.

[student: There is something here that's creating ...]

What?

[student: He can't stand in that space if that tree is in that space]

Yeah. What's there?
[student: Whatever ... I don't know what's there ... whatever is usually there]

[laughs] [laughter] No it's okay. It's okay. Let's leave it. Let's leave it. We'll get
there. I understand the point. The point is that there is some data there that
exists independently of our projections outside of ourselves.

[student: ... It doesn't even exist independently ... it's got its ... it's exists
dependent upon causes, parts conditions all that ... it doesn't exist dependent on
your mind unless your mind is involved with it ...[unclear]]

Okay, okay I understand. So you're saying that there's an object out there which
could exist independent of my projections and it is dependent on its

[student: It doesn't exist inherently only [unclear]]

Right Right

[student: ... independent of a building but not [unclear]]

It exists outside of my self. It exists out there. When my mind's not engaged in it
it's still out there and it's still dependent on its causes, therefore it's still
interdependent and it's not self existent but it does exist independent of my
projections. That's your position. I understand that. We'll leave it for now. We'll
get back to it, okay. Leave it for now. I understand. I think I stated what you
mean and we'll talk about it. And I think it's the same ... it's basically the same
thing ... basically the same argument that there exists some objects outside of
ourselves independent of our projections which are still fit into what we call
dependent origination in what in the way you normally think of it.

[student: otherwise you wouldn't have anything to project on]

Right. Right. And I say [laughs] [laughter] and and listen ... when your mind
goes down to the level of what you're projecting onto ... its calls {dache} you
know, the basis of the imputation if you want to get into that language ... again
you are projecting. And and your new {dache} is the parts of the old {dache}.
The new basis of your imputation is the parts of your old basis of imputation.
Now where are those parts? You see, I I ... what I'm saying is that the moment
you focus on the data itself it's another projection onto smaller parts of data. But
I don't want to ... lets leave it for right now, okay. We'll get we'll get back to it.
Let's leave it. We've got to move a little bit, okay. If you ... if what I said is
true ... and let's leave it at If ... okay. Because if you're a good Buddhist you
shouldn't accept things until you ... until they make sense, okay. If what I said is
true and you're now practicing the perfection of patience ... prac ... perfection
number three ... understanding the emptiness of the boss ... what ... what's the
process? How does emptiness help you?

{student: You don't get hurt]

What I'm not saying is that because he's empty you don't have to get mad
anymore. I'm not saying that ... a... b ... I'm not saying because he's empty, he's
not irritating. I'm not saying that. In fact I'm saying he's irritating because he's
empty. Okay. He is irritating and it is a painful event and it is suffering and it is
unpleasant, really. And what am I going to do? Come up here and say my boss
didn't get me mad last Tuesday. He did. It was unpleasant. He's blank, my
karmic seeds are forcing me to project a thing called an unpleasant boss. Okay.
What do I do? The last thing I want to do is ... ? ... to create new seeds to see new
blank objects as as as angry bosses. That's the last thing I want to do. That's
absolutely the last thing I want to do. I am then practicing the perfection of
patience understanding emptiness, period. The good deed that I have just
created is how big? You can't measure it. Why? What's the ultimate karmic
result of behaving like that. I mean eventually you'd get rid of all your old bad
karmas. Because they'd wear out and you're not perpetuating them. You're not
reseeding them. You're not resupplying anymore. So eventually the old seeds
would get would get worn out. If you knew the practice of the four powers you
could actually short circuit all the old seeds ... quickly. Okay.

[student: It also works the other way around, too. If you had the understanding
then you could manifact ... if you understand emptiness then you can manifest
any way you want for the benefit of others]

We'll talk about it. We'll get there. Actually today ... this class we'll talk about it.
[laughs] Okay. Okay. So I've stopped acting. I've stopped responding in a bad
way. I'm not collecting any new bad karmas. There are no ... there gonna be no
new seeds in my mind to project on any blank screens any more unpleasant
events. Okay. And then eventually what? If I'm if I'm being compassionate or
something or I'm being ... the Dalai Lama says, "If you can't be compassionate at
least don't" ... what did he say ... "don't hurt people" If you can't help them at
least don't hurt them, okay. But let's say that you go beyond and you're actually
going to turn the situation ... you know, the boss is screaming at you ... and you
say let's figure out why he's screaming and can I do something that will make
him happy. And you're thinking like that. Your mindset is like that. What
eventually will happen? It's all good karmic seeds. It's all good karmic seeds.
Say ... imagine what it would be like if you only had good karmic seeds and if the
world is empty ... if the whole world is blank ... and if all you have in your mind
is good karmic seeds they're going to force you to see ... paradise [laughs] okay.
It's ... that's that's how you get to Buddhahood. That is the method. And that's
how you use emptiness. The the karma that would produce that kind of result is
infinitely powerful. And that why the Buddha said you couldn't measure it. You
cannot measure it. Because think about the result. The result is paradise, okay.
The result is pure paradise. So what would happen later? I mean don't forget,
your own body is your own projection and your own mind is your own
projection. Okay. So let's say later you've worn out all the bad karma and you
look down on on the data that you presently call your samsaric body and you
see what? Your karma forces you to see what? You see a Buddha body. You
will be forced to see a Buddha body. You wouldn't have a choice. You know,
you wouldn't have a choice anymore. Your past karma on the same sense data
would be forced to see a Buddha's body. Okay. Your your karmas would force
you to see a Buddha's body. And by the way you would be aware of the whole
process. You say, "Hey, cool! My karmas are forcing me to see a Buddha
body." [laughter] That's nice, you know. You're very aware of the whole
process. It's artificial and it's real. It's artificial and that's exactly how you get
there. And that's what was happening all the time in the past anyway. I'm being
forced right now to see these freckles, you know. My my karmic seeds are
forcing me to see these freckles as freckles. I mean my my karmic seeds are
forcing me to do that. But at that point
you're saying, "Oh cool. Karmic seeds forcing me to see a a Buddha's body and
and forcing me to think like a Buddha.            Oooh, nice" [laughter] You know.
[laugh] I mean you're aware ... you're actually aware of it and you're exactly
aware of what's going on and you're quite consciously and purposely and cold ...
calculatedly keeping it going. You know, by being good. Okay. Two more
questions and then we'll break ... and then we'll talk about a specifically about a
Buddha's body and how that projection occurs ... how that how that happens.

[student: You said that [unclear]]

Excuse me. There's a difference between normally what we call karma, it's called
{sakchey}. {Sakchey} means impure, and normally when we talk about karma
we're talking about something which is dirty by nature. {Sakchey} means dirty
or it's it's tied up with suffering. I'm talking about a concept ... I'm calling it
karma but it's called {sagmey mi le}. It means , it means totally pure action. It's
it's totally pure activity. It's not it's not dirty karma. But ... the Buddha did ... in
three periods of seventy six, seventy five, seventy six and seventy seven
thousands great kalpas, which we studied the other day in New York, ten to the
sixtieth power, a zillion years or whatever, spent that time doing good deeds.
Which created his Buddha body. And that's and that's in the Vinaya, that's all
over. That is the process by which his body was created was by doing good
deeds. We call the collection of merit and the collection of wisdom. And we're
going to talk about that. But basically the sum total of jillion of years of being
good in the first three perfections ... say giving, living an ethical way of life, and
not and not getting angry when he could have got angry ... those create the
Buddha's physical body. How? How did you think it happened? The karma
went to Pluto and came back later, I mean. [laughs] Where did the karma stay
and how does it works? How did it get that result? And then the last two
perfections ... which is meditation and wisdom ... zillion of years of doing that
creates the mental body of a Buddha. And we'll talk about those two bodies.
We'll talk about that. I think you had one more question. Okay.

[student: [unclear] what about [unclear] while you're doing it, you still have all
these [unclear]]

Somebody asked Dharmabadhra the same question. And I and I read it the
other day. They said, "Okay, suppose you can cork that anger in and you don't
you don't blow up at your boss, okay ...you don't say anything but you do have
the the ... you know, you're on the verge ... you'd like to say something. Liking
to say something is a bad karma. It does it does create negative energy. At the
beginning you have to at least shut it off at the at the mouth and the body. And
later you have to learn to shut it off at the mental level. You have to learn to
stop the karma at at those levels. You ... but it ... but the reaction time shortens.
As you first learn about these ideas you remember emptiness on the way to the
bathroom five minutes later [laughs] after you've screamed at him. You know,
and then it gets shorten to three minutes, you know. And, you know, while he's
still in the room you you finally suddenly remember emptiness and all this stuff.
And then the reaction time gets shorter and shorter.                 And that called
{tenden ......tomba e} .Tsongkapa said, you know, 'Try to shorten the reaction
time until your Buddhist wisdom is so prevalent in your mind stream that you
can immediately shut down the reactions before you start saying something."
One more yeah?

[student: [unclear} you recognize what's going on and [unclear] ... compassion
and you try to help [unclear] ... anger [unclear] ... so you've actually extended
yourself and not only [unclear] does it go on like the domino factor [unclear] this
person was good about this and will he go on and on and maybe that will help
him the next time, maybe he won't yell and then the person [unclear] relieve
other people's karma [unclear] Will it have an effect that way too?]

Let me ask you this. If you're ... if you don't respond in anger, does the situation
always improve? No. That fits this theory precisely. Okay [laughs] Now, I
know. I know. No.

[student: [unclear] appreciate it [unclear] more peaceful way of [unclear] aren't
you happy?]

I know. But what I'm saying is it obviously has a profound effect on the people
around you and it will. And and actually the place where you work will become
some sort of mini paradise anyway. But but what I'm saying is that according to
every thing that I've said so far, in the short run, does everything become jolly
on the same day? Don't expect it. It doesn't happen. You know it doesn't
happen. It won't happen. Why? You still got karmic seeds to see the boss being
angry. I mean, that's not going to stop those seeds. Those will continue to ripen.
What I'm saying is that practice this path. Don't expect things to become jolly the
same day. It's not going to happen. The only thing that can ever happen, in the
short run, is nirvana ... as opposed to Buddhahood. What's the difference?
What's the difference? No, it's exactly the difference between nirvana and
Buddhahood. What's the definition of nirvana? Think you had it yesterday.
[laughs] No. No. No. I didn't say that. {nidi [unclear]} permanent cessation of
your own bad thoughts. Will this method lead to that? And and and and it could
be fairly soon. You know, that the cessation of your own anger could happen
very ... fairly ... relatively soon if you practice this method. Will Buddhahood
happen that soon? I mean, will your body suddenly become golden with little
wheels on the hands and the palms and the and the ... you know, and you get
this big bump on your head and stuff. You know. [laughs] I mean will that ...
will that happen immediately? No. So what I'm saying is that you can use this to
get you to nirvana quickly which is the whole point. {So so tango} , the second
half of the definition of nirvana ... based on seeing emptiness ... you stop your
mental afflictions. That's what is the story's about. You stop your mental
afflictions. You actually won't have any more unhappiness. Is life still screwy?
Yes. Is the company still crazy? Yes. Is the boss still screaming? Yes.
But if you keep that behavior up over a long period of time, what happens? The
old seeds purify. New seeds are planted. And you're forced to see ... the body of
a Buddha. And you're forced to see the mind of a Buddha in your own head.
Your mind is also a projection. Your mind is your own projection. You'll be
forced to see your own mind as quite pleasant ... whether you want to or not ...
in the same way now that you're forced now to see angry bosses and things like
that. Okay.

[student: Does that mean that the experience of a Buddha depends on karma?]

Absolutely! Why else would the Buddha spend three periods of seventy five
seventy six and seventy seven thousand great kalpas, ten to the sixtieth power of
million years, collecting good deeds ... to create his body. You know, yeah?

[student: So you're saying you become a Buddha at the moment that you no
longer have good or bad karmas left but only good karmas based on an
understanding of emptiness.}

Ah. {lekso lekso} [laughs] [laughter] Take a break. Sometimes Subhuti ... they
plant Subhuti in the audience, you know. [laughs] [laughter] We'll start at let's
say ll:30.

[cut] into two kinds. You can divide it into many many kinds but if you do it by
nature of its what we call {daygay ricki gono} {daygay ricki gono} means ... in
word only because it's not a real division. Why? Because one of the two
divisions is not bodhichitta, okay. [laughs] If you divide bodhichitta into two,
there is a way you can do it which is very important where one of them is not
actually bodhichitta. Okay. What is that? There's a thing called ultimate
bodhichitta and deceptive bodhichitta. All right.       Ultimate bodhichitta and
deceptive bodhichitta. And that was the answer to the homework question.
What is ultimate bodhichitta? And its called {dundam semkye}. It's all over the
scriptures. All over the place. {Dundam semkye} ultimate bodhichitta means ...
what do you guess? The direct perception of emptiness. Okay. The direct
perception of emptiness is the ultimate form of bodhichitta. I thought that was
kinda cool and that's why that question was there. Okay. What's the deceptive
bodhichitta? That's just the normal one that you think about. It's its what we
defined on the board. It's wanting to achieve total enlightenment so that you can
take other people there. And those are the two kinds of bodhichitta on the
homework question. There's many other kinds of bodhichitta and I'm not going
to go into that. Yeah.

[student: Is aspiring the same [unclear]]
No. No. That's {rolla goa inna} If you divide bodhichitta according to its basic
nature there's two versions, you know. One is wanting to do it and one is going
about doing it, basically. Okay, but we're not gonna ... I'm not going to get into
bodhi ... that's another class, okay.

[student: I was going to ask, so what was the point of going into suffering?]

Oh cool. Good question. Generally Buddhism recognizes two realities. Ultimate
reality and deceptive reality. Deceptive reality is often mistranslated as relative
truth or relative reality. And we're going to talk about that later. Okay. But
what does deceptive mean to you? When I say the guy deceived me what does
it mean to you? What does it mean to ... when I say deception what do you
think?

[student: That you've been led down a path that you did not [unclear]

Okay. Or when I say fake, what does it mean? When I say like ... fake chocolate
chip cookies or something, you know, what does it ... Yeah, oh carob, yeah
[laughs] [laughter] No, what it means is ... I mean fake [laughs] laughter] ... fake
or deception involves two things if you think about it and it's very important and
it's relevant, okay. Deception or fake and what we call fake reality ... fake
truth ... in Buddhism ... the fake part means this: it looks like one thing but ?... it's
really another thing. And those are the two parts of deception. All deceptions
depends on those two things. Looks like A but ain't A, it's really B. And that's
the nature of deception. That's why we call it deceptive reality, okay. To any
state of mind except for the direct perception of emptiness things are not the
way they seem. And that's why we call them deceptive, okay. And that's a long
story. All right. Now I want to make sure that I covered all your homework
and today at least. There are certain kinds of karmic seeds that if you cleaned
out your old dirty seeds and you only had nice clean wisdom collected seeds you
would have to look down ... you'd be forced to look down at your body later
and see a Buddha's body. I mean, they say it's not ... it doesn't have guts, doesn't
have blood, doesn't have a liver ... rainbow ... made of light. It is physical ... it is
not made of physical matter. It's tricky. Okay, it has color and shape. It's totally
blissful. We'll talk about it. Okay, it's not {dula dupa}. It's not made of physical
atoms. It does have physical qualities. There'll come a day where you'll be
forced to look down at the same body you have now or some data like that and
and see it in that way. What kind of karmic seeds could make that happen? We
call it {sunam kyi tsok}, the collection of merit, okay. The collection of merit.
Mainly referring to the first three perfections ... mainly ... with a good spice of
number four, okay. What are what are the first three perfections? Number one
is giving. Number two is morality. I kinda don't like that word because it
seems ... I like ethical way of life. A good life. You know, if you asked me am
I ... do I have morality ... I would say huuh. You know, if you say are you
leading an ethical way of life I'm trying. I kinda like that, anyway. Number
three? Patience which means not getting mad when the times comes. That's all it
means. It doesn't mean the ability to stand and wait for a bus, okay. Okay, I
mean that's a distinction. Number number three is not blowing up when you
should blow up and everything is right to blow up and you would normally
blow up, okay. Number four? Effort {sunkan gella top} Shantideva's definition
of effort-- Just enjoying doing good things. Having a good time when you do
good things. You know, getting off on doing good things. You know,
enjoying ... having ... I don't know how you say ... just getting off on doing good
things. That's number four. Just having having a good time when you do good
things. And that's for you that's the definition of good time. You know. That's
that's like joyous effort, okay. Those four together ... if those seeds were planted
in your mind stream and if you cleaned out the other seeds then one day you
would be forced to look down and see the physical body of a Buddha. Okay,
what's that body like? I'm going to go into it very briefly, okay. Because that's
homework question number two. [laughs] By the way question number one
is ... Why did the Buddha go from talking about how to make how to do good
perfections with wisdom and he skips to the body of a Buddha. Because he goes
up to Subhuti and says, "How do you know a Buddha is a Buddha?" And
Subhuti says, " Well they've got these marks" ... you know ... "They've got these
wheels on their hands and they've got this kind of hair and their skin is a golden
color." There are one hundred and twelve specific marks that a Buddha has.
Thirty minor ... thirty major marks ... thirty two major marks , eighty minor
marks, okay. Anyway Buddhas have a hundred and twelve very unique signs
on their body that other beings don't have. Like world emperors have them ... a
little bit but they're a little off center and they're not quite clear and all that. But
talking perfect hundred and twelve major and minor marks only Buddhas have
them. So Buddhas said to Subhuti, "How do you know a Buddha is a Buddha?"
He says, "Well, when you look at him he's got those hundred and twelve marks
and they're right in the right place and they're absolutely clear and distinct and
that's how you know they're a Buddha" And then then the Buddha said, "But
what did the Buddha say about the those marks?" And Subhuti said, "Oh Buddha
said those were impossible [laughs] Buddha said those don't exist" You know
and this is the Diamond sutra right? This seems to be a pattern. You know. The
Buddha ... Subhuti is the fall guy. Buddha says, "What makes a Buddha?" and
Subhuti says, "Marks, you know you see these marks." And then the Buddha
says, "No you don't. There're not any marks" [laughs] [laughter] You know and
then they get into the major and minor marks. Why did they do that? Why did
they go from the perfection ... why did they go from perfecting the perfections
with wisdom to the to the body of a Buddha. One leads to the other. That's the
whole point. Okay. It's the first four perfections primarily which create the
physical body of a Buddha. It's the last two primarily which create the mental
body of a Buddha. Okay. And body is maybe a difficult term, okay. Let say
part. Okay. The physical parts of a Buddha are created by mainly by the first
four perfections. The mental part of a Buddha is created primarily by the by the
second by the last two perfections in conjunction with number four, half of
number four. You guys tell me. Number five? Is what? Is the ability to
meditate perfectly, okay. The perfection of meditation, concentration. Number
six? Wisdom, which is understanding absolutely what we're talking about today
and yesterday. That that is the ... that is wisdom. That's the whole point. There
ain't much more to it. We can talk some more but ... that's the main thing. I'm
going to talk about the ... what's called the four bodies of a Buddha. I think it's
maybe more convenient to think about them as the four parts of a Buddha, but
they're called the four bodies of a Buddha. Are they projections? Yeh. Why?
Because they exist. [laughs] Okay, because they exist.

[silence]

Some scriptures teach three bodies, some scriptures teach two bodies, some
scriptures teach four bodies. We'll do the four because that way you get the
others automatically. Okay. There are two physical bodies and then two bodies
which are not physical. Okay. We're going to cover the two physical ones first.
The first physical one is called {trul-ku} say {trul-ku} [repeat] {trul-ku} [repeat]
{trul} means to emanate or to send out. {Nirmana} means to send out something
like ... like sending out rays of light or something. And the point is this. Once
you become enlightened, because of the incredible good deeds you've done,
anytime, anyone, on any plane,. in any galaxy of the universe could benefit from
a Buddha being there in any form. You show up there automatically. You don't
have to think about it. You don't have to think, "Oh, it's two o'clock ... Bob
Chilton's getting mad ... I better send his girlfriend down" [laughter] you know.
[laughs] You know, you don't have to think like that. They say it like a moon
reflecting in in the water of the earth. When there's a clear sky at night and the
moon comes out the moonlight ... the image of the moon reflects in every body
of water on the planet automatically. The moon doesn't have to think, "Oh hey
I'd better get down to that puddle in the middle of Vajrapani stupa [laughter] or I
better get down to the whole Pacific ocean or I better get down to the teardrop
in in a child's eye" You know, the moon doesn't have to think that. It just shows
up there. It shows up anywhere where where the conditions are ripe. Anytime
there's a body of water pointed at the moon on a clear night the moon is
showing up in that water. It doesn't matter how big or small it is. So {nirmana
kaya} is like that. Anytime anyone's ready, anytime anyone could benefit ... the
{nirmana kaya} is there ... at that moment. And they're very patient creatures. I
always tell people they could get ... they could wait on the west fourth street
subway platform for twenty [laughter] five years knowing that you're showing
up on October 3rd at two o'clock and get on the subway next to you and bump
you ... to see if you get mad. [laughter] They're very patient creatures. There's
no reason why a Buddha who has ... who is working on infinite planets and in
infinite countries on and in infinite cities at the same time wouldn't do something
like that. And Pabongka Rinpoche was very adamant about that. He said, "You
know, be careful in a class like this. You never know who you're sitting next to."
You know, you have no way of knowing who you're sitting next to. You don't
know. Don't think the Buddha is so wimpy that he can't appear in any way he
wants to. You know, don't don't discount his ability or her ability. Okay. Can
be anybody. Could be anything. There's three forms of {trul-ku}s. Okay, three
kinds. A Buddha can appear as a inanimate object. A Buddha could be this pole.
I mean, it could show ... it could project this pole. It could project the wind
blowing through the trees and you and you hear some dharma teaching from it.
Very possible. It's been done many times. You're out in the forest alone. The
wind is blowing through the trees and it gives you ... it has some message ... it
tells you something. It's the Buddha's activity. It's the Buddha ... it's the activity
of a Buddha. No problem. Okay, first kind of {trulku}. Secondly, they could
emanate as as some kind of lower animal, a lower life form. It doesn't have to be
emanating as a Shakyamuni Buddha in India, 500 BC. They could emanate, for
example, as a deer and if that deer teaches you something about dharma then it
could be the Buddha. It's definitely the Buddha's activity. The deer itself could be
the Buddha. Okay, very ... that's the second kind of emanation form ...
emanation body. The third kind is what we call {chokyi tulku} Say {chokyi}
[repeat] {tulku} [repeat] {chokyi tulku}[repeat]. That means the ultimate or
supreme emanation body and that one always looks like the Buddha who came
to India 500 BC. It always has those one hundred and twelve marks. That
Buddhas always looks like that. Okay, that's the ultimate emanation body.
That's the supreme emanation body. That's called {chokyi tulku}.

{student: It's really like [unclear]]

Excuse me?       There are probably {chokyi tulku}s that you can't recognize.
[laughs] All right. I would say ... personally I would think that, you know. But I
believe that they could they could emanate as the first type, you know. Okay.

[student: unclear]

Oh they're emanating as a human which I put in the second type, actually.
They're not emanating ... Yeah. Yeah. A human emanation without the marks
would be in number two. Okay. Yeah

[student: In a lower life form?]

Well a lower life form, meaning non ...non enligh ... appearing to be non
enlightened. And a human is there also, okay. Yeah.

[student: somebody [unclear]]

The word {tulku} means only this. I mean technically, a {tulku} ...

[student: unclear]]

Yeah. It depends on if ... whether your his disciple or not. [laughs] Or ... I mean
ideally if they're really what a {tulku} is suppose to be mean, they are a Buddha
and they are just emanating as a as a in a series of human lives. But they are
totally enlightened beings. In practical sense if everybody who was ever called a
{tulku} in Tibet who recognized as being the ... the next life of the former life
which was maybe only on the path ... I think in in Tibet and in Tibetan Buddhism
yeah there is that idea. But ultimately the word {tulku} refers to an enlightened
being emanating ... and I think it probably meant to be thought of that way
originally. Nowadays there are these other ideas, maybe. Okay. So that's the
the emanation body. The next one is called

[silence]

Say {long-ku}[repeat] {long-ku} [repeat] In sanskrit {sambhoga kaya} [repeat].
{long} {long} {long} is a word that means like enjoyment. You can call it the
enjoyment body. This is the body ... the physical body of a Buddha in his or her
own paradise. Okay, as they exist in their own paradise. What's the basic
difference between these two bodies?

[student: You can see one but you can't see the other]
Exactly. Okay. He said, "You can see one and you can't see the other" And the
basic distinction ... the reason there's two different bodies is that the first one can
been seen by normal people who have extraordinary virtue. In other words, if
you have the good karma to be in India five hundred BC and look upon this
being ... you're in ... you can see body number one. And we can see the other
kinds of bodies, you know. We can meet a Lama who's pretending to be a
normal human. We can we can meet Lamas who who look like regular people.
And in that case we we are able to see the {tulku}. We are able to see body
number one. Maybe not the {chokyi tulku} okay. If you're not {le dapa}. {le
dapa} means if you're not a person of extraordinary good karma you don't live
in a world where the Buddha himself walks. Can't see him. Can't meet him. And
we're in that category. We can not meet the {chokyi tulku}. He's he's gone.
Okay, and he's not coming back for a long time. [laughs] Okay. We can meet the
Dalai Lama who is a {tulku} but not the {chokyi tulku}. Okay. So we have
enough good karma to meet to meet beings who are Buddhas and look like
normal people. But we don't have the good karma to meet Buddhas who look
like the ultimate emanation body of a Buddha.

[student: [unclear]]

La ... that's a ... we'll get there. I think it's class number eight. [laughs] I always
say this in New York so I get out of it easy. We'll talk about that. That's
extremely important. That's really important. She said, "Well what if you purify
your karma to a certain extent, what could could you be." That's a question.
We'll talk about it. To see the second body you have to be A: a bodhisattva, B:
you've must have seen emptiness directly. You have to be a Arya bodhisattva.
You have to have real bodhichitta in your heart and you have to have seen
emptiness directly. To see the one that's in ... living in their own paradise, okay.
Otherwise ... so that's the basic reason why there're two bodies split up. You
know. One of the kinds we can meet and the other are the kinds that we can't
meet until we see emptiness directly and get bodhichitta. Okay. Do you want
detail on this body or are do you want to eat lunch? Good. So it's your fault, not
mine. [laughs] I'll give you five qualities of the second body. Okay. They're
called the five certainties. The five certainties. Five qualities about body number
two are totally fixed. They never change. Number one is its location or its
residence ... the place where this Buddha stays. The place where this body stays
is always in a paradise called Okmin. Okay. You'll never bump into this body
anywhere else. If you want to see this body you got to go to Okmin. It never
leaves Okmin. It's in Okmin. Okay. Second quality. The people who hang out
with this body are always the same. They are a minimum bodhisattva Aryas.
Bodhisattvas who have seen emptiness. Okay. In other words this this being in
its own residence can only bump into? ... bodhisattvas Aryas. Bodhisattvas who
have seen emptiness directly. This being on its own turf never has to run into a
yelling boss. [laughs] Okay. It's very interesting and maybe even not on its
own turf. Maybe anywhere. Okay. This being is never forced to encounter any
other being who is less than a high bodhisattva. Okay

[student: This paradise [unclear]]

It's not in the three realms of samsara. It's not in the form realm, formless realm

[student: Dharmakaya manifest in[unclear]]

In in these realms, in all three ... can manifest in all three realms. Doesn't do
much in the formless or form realms, okay but does do something there.
Quality number three. The body is always the same. It always has those one
hundred and twelve marks totally perfect. Perfectly clear and perfectly located
on the body in the right places. It always has those marks. A hundred and
twelve marks. Okay. Why are they called marks. Thirty are called {tsen} ...
they say, because they mark the person as a holy being. The thirty major marks.
Thirty two major marks. The eighty minor are called {pechay} which means
symbol because they symbolize that inside the person has these great spiritual
qualities. In other words, these are like ... pimples on a teen agar that symbolize
the inner metabolism [laughs] changing, you know. These are marks that are
showing up on the outside that are just reflections of what's going on in the
inside, okay. They always show up in the same way. If you have the same kinds
of compassion, knowledge and omniscience you always get these thing coming
out on your skin. Okay. It's just the nature of things. You can't have those inner
qualities without these outer marks showing up on on your body. Okay. That's
just the way it is. So they always have those marks, okay. In that body, number
two. The fourth quality is that, you know, in the paradise in which they live they
are teaching. They are teaching those bodhisattvas, for example. Bodhisattvas
can go and learn from these beings.
960825-2.aaa
90A.TXT
DIAMOND CUTTER SUTRA, tape 4
August 25, 1996
Transcribed by: Fran Dayan



I'm going to skip number six. We'll come back. By the way the Sanskrit is ...

[silence]

We gotta save number three cause you can't understand number three until you
do number four, okay. But this is the normal order.

[silence]

Say {yeshe chulku} [repeat] {yeshe chulku} [repeat] {Yeshe} means wisdom.
{Chu} means dharma. {Ku} is {kaya} This is the wisdom body of the Buddha,
okay. The wisdom body of the Buddha. It is the Buddha's omniscience. The fact
that the Buddha at any particular instant can see every existing thing in the
universe that ever was, is now or ever will be, ultimate reality or deceptive
reality all at once. No problem. The Buddha can perceive all of those things at
one moment, okay. That makes the Buddha omniscient, okay. The Buddha is
not omnipotent , by the way, okay. I mean just as a point. The Buddha cannot
change your suffering with a wave of his hand and he said that, okay. He did
not make the world, you made the world. He can't take away your suffering by
doing anything special. If he could he would have. What is he a a sadist? You
know, if he could have removed your suffering with some kind of, you know,
whoo whoo, you know. Would have done it. Cannot do it. Is not omnipotent.
Doesn't have the power to do that. But is omniscient. Does know all things,
okay. That brings us to this body. {loa nilku} That's the emptiness of the other
three bodies, okay. {loa} means essence body. This is the essence body. It is the
emptiness of the other three bodies. What's the emptiness of the first body,
{nirmanakaya}? What is the emptiness of the body that comes to the planet
earth? What's the emptiness of the Dalai Lama's body? It is anything BUT not a
projection. I'll say it again. [laughs} It is anything BUT not a projection. That's
his emptiness. That's the emptiness of the Dalai Lama's body. To state it
positively, to state its dependent origination, the Dalai Lama is forced by his past
karma to perceive himself as having a {nimanakaya}. Those arms and legs which
you and I see in a certain way and his enemies see in a different way and that he
sees in a totally different way. Those parts he is forced to project onto that,
Buddha's body. His experience of his own body is, "Oh shucks, I'm being forced
to see this as a Buddha's body by my past karma." Okay. His enemies see this
very evil man who is trying to split up things, you know. And his disciples see a
guy who looks likes a regular human being and they say he's something special
and he certainly does acts special but right now that's all we can see, okay. That's
the emptiness of the Dalai Lama's body, okay. That's part of his essence body,
okay. The fact that he is anything but not a projection of his own is part of his
body number three. Okay, that's the emptiness of the Dalai Lama's body, of his
physical body. It's not not a projection. It's not not a projection. That's the
emptiness of his of his body. And that is and that is his body number three, part
of it, okay.

[student: [unclear]]

Excuse me?

[student: Didn't you say it's number four the dharmakaya?]

By the way there's a big difference between the dharmakaya and this nyana
dharmakaya. This {nyana kaya} is his wisdom, is his knowledge.

[student: So what's the difference?}

The dharmakaya involves body number three and four together. What they call
dharmakaya is body number three and four taken as one. Okay. And then they
call rupakaya is number one and two taken together, okay. And that's why you
come up with two sometimes.           What's the emptiness of the Buddha's
omniscience? And then we'll stop, okay. What's the emptiness of the Buddha's
omniscience? We've only got half the essence body so far. We got the emptiness
of his physical body. He has the karma to be forced to see this data as a as a
deity's body. You know, he's being forced to see that. That's the inde ... that's
the dependent origination of his body. The emptiness of his body is ... his body
ain't anything other than that. What about his mind? That's really cool. What
about his mind? What's the emptiness of his mind? It's a projection. Onto what?
Onto the parts of the mind. What parts? Well let's take some of the mental
functions which accompany all consciousness. He has feelings. He's able to
discriminate between things. He's able to direct his mind to certain objects. He's
able to focus on something. These are all mental functions. Those all of those
mental functions and the main mind taken as a whole ... the Dalai Lama is forced
to see as a as a knowledge body, as a wisdom body. He's forced to see that as a
wisdom body. Very interesting. You and I got the same parts of our minds. We
have attention. We have concentration. We have discrimination. We have
sensation. We all have those. Bugs have those. But he's being forced to see it
as ... what? Omniscience! And that's the only way you'll get to omniscience. It's
very interesting. If you want to get to omniscience you better collect the karmic
seeds that are going to force you to see you see the own parts of your own mind
as omniscience. It's very interesting. You don't get there any other way. What
did you think? You thought that some guy was going to do surgery? You
know. Was it something external? It's very interesting. What is happening is a
shift in your own perception. The grey stuff is the same. The object ... the basis
of that imputation is the same. You are being forced to interpret it in a different
way. You're the guy sitting next to me at work instead of me. It's very
interesting. A shift is occurring in your projections and you are passing from
ignorance to all knowingness. That's how you get to be a Buddha. It's cool.
Okay. Yes?

[student: Are you saying that my emptiness of the Dalai Lama's body is different
than the emptiness of the Dalai Lama's body from his own side?]

Absolutely! Oh, no. I'd say your your projection onto the Dalai Lama's Dalai
Lama's body is totally different from ... do you think he's getting old to himself?
Is is Avalokiteshvara getting bald? [laughs] [laughter] You know.               To
Avalokiteshvara ... to Avalokiteshvara you know ... is his you know is he
getting wrinkles? Come on.

[student: But yesterday you said that emptiness was equal and the same for all
objects]

Oh, the emptiness ... that's why I said that the projection is different. The
emptiness is totally the same. You know. If you understand his emptiness and
he understands his emptiness it's totally the same. Now can you really perceive
his total emptiness the way he perceives it ... not not yet. But If you ever did at
any point it would be absolutely the same as the way he perceives it. Because it's
only the fact that he ain't anything other than a projection. Okay. It's double
negative. It is a double ... emptiness is a double negative and that's why, by the
way, that emptiness could never be anything positive. Emptiness is a lack of
something. Emptiness is the absence of something. If you get someone stand
up and say "Emptiness is a little yellow and it's a sorta glowing and it comes
down from the sky", you know. [laughter] And ... impossible! It's an absence of
something. It's the mere absence of something. The the fact that there's no
elephant ... two headed elephant interrupting our talk today is a kind of ... is
similar to emptiness in that sense. It's the fact that something that which was
never there ain't there. The {gak-ja} that was never there isn't there. That's
emptiness. The {gak-ja} that could never have existed anyway is not there.
That's emptiness. The the Dalai Lama's body and mine are anything but not
something projected. If you want to say it positively which is its dependent
origination and not its emptiness, it is only his projection. And it could never be
anything else, that's his emptiness. It's cool. He's being forced to see
his own mind as omniscient. So what's body number three? It's just the fact that
the other three bodies aren't anything else. Okay. The other three bodies aren't
not anything else except a projection onto certain data. Okay. Which are being
forced upon the Buddha by seven four thousand seventy five thousand seventy
six thousand and seventy seven thousand countless eons of doing good stuff.
[laughs] All right. Where did you think that the good deeds stayed? Where did
you think before ... how are they going to make him into a Buddha? Did they
come back from Pluto on this big orbit and hit him and suddenly he's a Buddha.?
How do you think you get to be a Buddha? Is it something outside? Where
does karma stay in the meantime? And how does it ripen? It's in your mind.
Okay. All right we'll stop there. See you at 3, all right? Oh, two questions on
your homework. Oh boy, I would have gotten into trouble. [laugh] [laughter]
This is how I stretch the class out without looking like it. Explain why the
Buddha said that the marks of a Buddha are deceptive yet also true. They're
deceptive yet also true. They are fake and they are true. And and that's what
deceptive reality means. {kundzob demba} means fake reality, fake truth. False
truth. The word means false truth. In what way are those marks on a Buddha's
body false? The Buddha said both. The Buddha said they're both. I better look
at the ... yeah, okay. They're false in that ... they it looks like they exist
independent of the Buddha's projections but in reality they're not. Okay.
They're false in that sense. The Buddha in the Diamond Sutra says, "Subhuti,
those marks are false. They're not real." What did he mean? He meant they're
artificial in the sense of being your creation. They are artificial.

[student: [unclear]]

Same thing. When I said projection and they said {mingdey shoptang}. which
means only in name, is interpreted by the higher schools in in scripture as
meaning {topee tock pam} meaning a projection of the mind. It's the same thing.
It's the same process. It's sometimes called imputing or labeling and sometimes
it's called projection. Same thing. The name in this case does not refer to a sound
or letters which is what normally {ming} refers to. It refers to a concept ... a
conceptualization. Okay. It's very tricky. Okay. That's the fakeness of the
Buddha's mind. What is the reality of the Buddha's mind? They were never any
other way. They're empty. That is real ... that is real. The fact that there are ...
that they were never anything but a projection is real. That's true. The fact that
they were never anything other a projection, that's real. The fact that they don't
seem to be a projection but are a projection is ... their deceptive nature, okay.
They don't look like a projection, okay. All right, last question. It says, explain
why the Buddha said twice that the Buddha's body has no marks on it. [laughs]
Okay. In that sutra at the end of your reading you'll see that the Buddha says,
"Subhuti, the body of a Buddha has no marks on it. No marks at all." And poor
Choney Drakpa Shedrup's got to try to figure it out. [laughs] The first time he
says it he's talking to mainly about the first two bodies which are what? Yeah,
it's the two physical bodies which do have marks on them. So when he says ...
the first time he says, "The bodies of the Buddha has no marks on them" he
talking mainly about the first two bodies. Okay. Do they have marks on them?
[laughs]

[student: No]

Ah [laughs] Subhuti back there. [laughs] Do the first two bodies of the Buddha
have any marks on them?

[student: Not in the sense that we've just talked about]

Good. Not self existently. Not {gak-ja}ishly. [laughs] If you go try to find a
mark on a Buddha that didn't come from your projection on certain data on his
skin you ain't never going to find a mark. Okay. In that sense they're
impossible. If you ... I'll repeat. to go out and try to find a self existent mark on a
Buddha you'll never find one. In that sense those marks do not exist. Okay.
You'll won't be able to find them. Yeah?

[student: Do these marks ... are they perceived by those in the paradise?]

Yeah. By the Bodhisattvas.

[student: By the Bodhisattvas. Is it their projections?]

There ain't nothing which is not a projection. [laughs] , yeah. One more point
and then I'll answer a question. The second time he says the bodies have no
marks he's referring to ... what do you guess? The second two bodies but mostly
number four because number three ... what? Number three covers the whole
question. Number three is the emptiness. But he's talking about three and four,
bodies number three and four. And actually ... I'm sorry, mainly he's talking
about number three. The scriptures says mainly he's talking about number
three. Why? When he says the second time ... it's very short. In the scripture he
just says, "No
marks, no marks at all." The Buddha never repeats himself without reason.
Never. It's a big point in scripture, you know. The Buddha never says something
twice unless there's a point to it. Okay.

[student: unclear]]

 [laughs] [laughter] He said Subhuti is hard of hearing. The first time he says it
he's meaning there's no self existent marks on the physical body. The second
time he says it he means, "Hey come on body number three is the fact that there
is no self existence mind. Don't you get it?" It means repeat ... the second time
he says "no marks", he means body number three is the fact that he has no self
existent marks, okay. Body number three is his lack of self existent marks.

[student: Does that mean that the first time number four body [unclear]]

I don't think so. Because he's talking physical but I won't get into it. Okay. One
question.
Yeah.

[student: It sounds as if you [unclear] can reach enlightenment at the same time
destroying the concept blowing up the concept so that you won't become
attached to them [unclear]]

Say it again and say it louder so they can hear.

[student: It sounds as if the sutra is building up a series of concepts to maybe to
reach enlightenment but at the same time self destructing those concepts so that
you don't become attached to them and realize them as empty]

This gets into the question of you know ... could you be attached improperly to
the body of a Buddha. I mean, what ... she said that the building up of the
concepts or the methods of reaching enlightenment but at the same time they're
trying to tear them down in the sense that they're trying to make them not an
object of your attachment. They're trying to make them not be something that
you'd be attached to.

[student: And you're constantly realize their emptiness.]

So you're constantly thinking about the emptiness of those ideas. It's it's true in a
sense. We definitely saw emptiness in the sense of when you're angry at
something. You know. You understand now how to be patient with somebody
by using the concept of emptiness and I won't answer her question but I'll give
you another question and that will be something to cook about. How do you
use it when you're talking about desire? Okay. Obviously emptiness is useful
when you're talking about a boss who's screaming at you and you don't want to
perpetuate that screaming boss. But what do ... how do you use it when you're
about to commit adultery? You know. You're attracted to someone else's
spouse. You're just about to commit adultery. How would perceiving emptiness
at that moment stop you, you know. How does it relate to desire.

[student: By understanding the nature of karma]

I'll just leave it like that. Think about it. You know. Do you get the pleasure that
you're about to get from that spouse by going after that spouse? Is that the way
to have that sensation of pleasure? Is that where it came from? Did it come
about through your efforts to sneak out and get to this place and meet her
somewhere. Is that how you got the pleasure from her? It came from a special
kind of karma in the past. Getting pleasure of that nature from a person in that
situation comes from a certain kind of karma. It's called being faithful to your
wife or your husband. Very interesting. You know. If if you're going to have
some pleasure like that it's gonna come because you've kept yourself away from
sexual misconduct in the past. You were very pure. You were very good and
because of that you're able to project pleasure of that type. If you didn't want to
have that pleasure anymore ... if you want to make sure that you never have
that pleasure again ... what would be the best way to assure it? Commit
adultery. [laughs] It's very interesting. It works with desire as well. So now
philosophical desire that you're attached to the concept, maybe you can play
with it ... in the same way you know. Okay. I'm sorry that we went on. I'll try
not to do that, okay. [laughs] We'll just go straight to some prayers.

[prayer: short mandala]
[prayer: dedication]