ACI 6 «Сутра Алмазного Огранщика», занятие 2

960825-1.aaa
89A.txt
transcribed by: Fran Dayan
DIAMOND CUTTER SUTRA, tape 3
AUGUST 25, 1996



We'll get to that. That's a point of the course. I can't do it in one day. You know.
We'll start on it tomorrow and and we'll get to it. There is some connection and
it's and it's not often made. I mean, you very rarely hear a good explanation of
emptiness and even if you get it the reaction ... well what's the use to me? ... you
know, so who cares. You know ... okay maybe I'm seeing parts, maybe I'm
seeing a whole, maybe it's my projection ... but, you know, it still hurts when a
car hits me ... you know. I don't care if it's made of parts or not, you know.
What's it got to do with me? [laughs] ... you know. Uh. ... you ... you have to ...
we'll get to that ...we'll have to get into that. Anybody have any questions? We'll
do like five minutes of questions. Yeah?

[student: So I think I can appreciate what you're saying about emptiness based
on projects, conditions and parts, but it seems like the issue of functionality is
missing from the [unclear] that you're telling us about because it's not just the
pot that's metal and the handles of the pot
that make it a pot. It's also pot because it's [unclear] by heat. And if I don't
[unclear] it will burn my dinner. Because ... it's seems that that is missing from ...]

We consider that it's one of the parts.

[student: Uh?]

Uh, the fact that it holds water ... the fact that it holds your dinner is one of its
components. Its functionality is one of its components. Yeah ... yeah and there's
obviously a question of what we call {tsema}, which means .. I mean, that
eliminates craziness ... I mean ... you could be on a LSD trip and be looking at a
pot and see it as an elephant.          Uh, the parts have to be a reasonable
representation of the whole and we'll talk about that also. There has to be some
correspondence between those parts and what you are calling it ... labeling it.
And I mean, if the thing was a flat piece of metal that couldn't hold any water
and you were still insisting on calling it pot, it wouldn't be a pot. So there has to
be the component of functionality. Yeah ... it's one of its parts. Yeah?
[student: [unclear] what you perceive [unclear]. Still there's something out there
regardless of your projections ...]

Madhyamika says ... AH! ... [laughs] you know. Madhyamika says classic
ultimate mistake! You know. What he said was very interesting and it's very
very very important ... and the lower schools never get it. Okay, and what he's
saying is very interesting. And I ... and I'll say it like this ... Okay. With or
without Michael Roach's projections ... those eyeballs, those noses, and those
mouths are out there. You know. If Michael Roach goes home right now, are all
these eyeballs going to disappear? You know ... I mean [laughs] ... no really. I
mean you ... what you're saying is very very subtle and very important. He's
saying, "I agree that the way I perceive everybody depends on my projections.
But does that mean when I leave this place that all these faces are going to
disappear? You know, isn't there some data which really exists? ... in and of
itself ... out there ... independently of my projections? I agree that I'm imputing
face on those eyeballs. But you're admitting that there are eyeballs out there. So
when you go away, okay, maybe the faces aren't being imputed or labelled but
those eyeballs are still sitting there." [laughter] You know. In other words the
data is there really ... the data is there in reality ... independent of your
projections. And Prasangnika says, "Uh, uh, go to the next level. What what
eyeball are you talking about, pray tell?" [laughter] You know. And then you go
down to the next level, you see ... you're backed up to into the face and now you
go down to the next level and we start arguing about the eyeball. Okay, show
me an eyeball that exists without ...

[student: the other one. You're back again [unclear]]

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

[student: But there's something to the analyzing ultimately. Conventional
existence you're analyzing [unclear] something exists there or it wouldn't be
conventional]

Right. Right. So what's he's saying is that there's the color of the eyeball, and the
shape of the eyeball. I admit that the eyeball is imputed. I admit that on a
certain level the eyeball is my projections but those colors and shapes are there!
You can't deny that. There're atoms there existing. They don't depend on your
projection. You walk out of here. Those colors and shapes of the eyeball still
exist. Okay. Go down one more level. You know. You you're also agreeing
together the shapes and colors, because you're agreeing together the left
side of the shape and the right side of the shape. What he's saying is that

[student: Is there something there [unclear]]

I know, yeah. Let's go down one more level. That's the point. {Tibetan unclear}
means don't
be

[student: the nature of it is empty. [unclear]]



Right. Right. That's what the lower schools insist, they say okay, I agree that at a
certain level you're imputing things. But you're imputing them on something
that's ... there is something that is there, you know. That's {gakja}

[student: [unclear]]

At that level

[student: [unclear]]

[laughs] Nagarjuna says the following ... he says ... I ... you gotta mak the outgo,
right. What did he say at Woodstock? He says, [laughs] "I'm a farmer", you
know. And Nagarjuna says there's a place in the scripture where it says, "I'm a
farmer" [laughs] [laughter] He says , Yeah. He said look, "If you don't get into it.
If you just leave it alone. You can farm. You can dig the earth. You can plant
seeds. Things will grow, you know. I believe what farmers believe." If farmers
say something's there, Nagarjuna says it's there, you know. I ... on the level of
not investigating things ... if you just leave everything alone and don't stir
anything up and don't open a can of worms , everything is fine. Everything's
there. It all works. It all grows. They can plant in the spring. They'll get things
in the fall. As long as you don't investigate or go and analytically everything is
there, conventionally. But once you start looking for something which could
exist without your participation of your projections, forget it! You won't find
anything. And it doesn't matter how deep you go. You won't find anything.
They call it {matak me jepa}, means as long as you don't open that can of worms
and investigate everything is fine. Everything exists exactly the way you
thought it did. But the minute you start to examine it ... does it exists
independent of me? ... of my projections? ... you won't find anything. You can
look all day, you won't find anything. And at the end of the day you'll
perceive ?... emptiness. And so it's a good job to go looking. Because you'll end
up with ... nothing. And that's emptiness. [laughs] And you found it. You found
what you were looking for.

{student: ultimately [unclear]]

Of course. Yeah, on a on a relative level, on a farmer's level it's all here. That's ...
absolutely. Absolutely. When you look for it ultimately, you won't find it.
When you look for it conventionally it's all over the place, okay. Okay, one
more question and

{student: [unclear]]

No. No.

[student: Does the instances of a two headed elephant that can't be found or
labelled and is merely an imaginative entity, is that as valid as the instances of a
one headed elephant who can be imputed ?]

[laughs] Yeah. Okay. What's he's saying is that there are different kinds of
emptinesses. You know. I mean, is the lack of an elephant that that could exist
the same thing as the lack of an elephant that couldn't exist? No. Emptiness
refers to, specifically, the fact that a thing which is not your projection could
exist ... doesn't exist, okay. It's only that emptiness which we're talking about.
There are lots of other emptinesses around here. There's definitely an emptiness
of money in my pocket. Okay. I can ... I can guarantee you ... not voluntarily.
It's there, okay. If I realized that it's not going to finish my mental afflictions. It's
not going to destroy my mental afflictions. It's a definite emptiness existing on
this platform right now. It will not bring you to nirvana, okay. It's not that ... we
talking about that emptiness which when perceived destroys your mental
afflictions, okay. Now what's that got to do with .... what does your anger, your
jealousy and your desire have to do with walking around, you know, "Oh she's
my projection. Oh he's my projection. It's just a projection", you know You
know, what's it got to do with that? Classic wrong view is, "Oh, jealousy is just
my projection. So everything's alright, you know. When she yells at me I'll be
happy. You know, when she's nice to me I won't get attached, you know. And
that's nirvana. It's not like that, okay. It's not that's not the point, okay. That's
not how understanding about projections saves you. It's not the point. It's really
not the point. Because you can go try it. You know, go to dinner and say this
radish that I don't like is just a projection and so I'm going to like it. You know,
it's going to taste like a ... cupcake. You know, because it's just my projection
anyway. I might as well project cupcake because I don't like radishes. [laughter]
You know. It won't work. It's not the point. That's not how this kind of stuff is
going to save you. It won't work. It doesn't have anything to do with it.
Everything is your projection and everything is absolutely real. Madhyamika
says ... because it's your projection it works. If it wasn't your projection, it
couldn't work. Okay. Because it is your projection it's totally real. If it weren't
your projections it couldn't be real. And we'll talk about that ... we have to talk
about that. Okay. One more question and then we'll really stop. Okay? Yeah?

[student: Does the lower schools [unclear]]

The view that that is the ultimate meaning of dependant origination. Yeah?

[student: If one ascertains that, it seems that that would have a some effect on
[unclear]]

Uh, important. For example ... uh ... understanding dependant origination in the
sense of the twelve links of dependant origination is important for reducing your
mental afflictions. But according to Madhyamika ... but according to the higher
schools if you never perceive the real meaning of dependant origination and that
the opposite of that ... the absence of not being that is emptiness, you will never
be able to destroy your mental afflictions. Never. Ever. Can't. So ... and and
what do they call that? And on the other hand if you do destroy your mental
afflictions no matter what you call yourself you've seen emptiness. That kind of
emptiness. Okay ... and that's the only one that that helps you. Uh. Okay, we'll
take a ...we'll stop there. I usually do some meditation but we're kinda running
late so we just go straight to a prayer. We'll start tomorrow at 100:00 o'clock. By
the way if it's confusing, it's okay. If it's sounds like intellectual BS [laughs] it's
okay. We're going to tie it together into something real tomorrow. Okay, so
hang with it. It's new for you. It's something unusual. And and we'll tie it
together by tomorrow. Okay, it it will become relevant to your life. You'll be
able to use the concept of emptiness, by the end of this course, to to stop your
mental afflictions. And that's the whole idea. When you stop them, you're
happy and that's that's the idea. So it will become relevant. It's difficult at this
point. Okay, when you first hear it it's a little irrelevant ... sounds irrelevant,
okay? But at least you know what {gatja} ain't. You know that {gatja} doesn't
mean me. Because I'm standing here. Okay and and you know that {gatja}
doesn't mean ... you know that emptiness doesn't mean that nothing exists.
Emptiness, obviously doesn't mean that nothing matters. Emptiness obviously
doesn't mean that you can do good things or bad things and it's all the same.
The Buddha wouldn't have spent sixteen thousand pages teaching ethics and
then another sixteen thousand pages teaching emptiness if they weren't equally
important.      There must be some tie in between leading a good life and
emptiness. Okay. If emptiness means nothing matters or if emptiness means
that doing bad things and good things is all the same then, the Buddha didn't
have to write those other sixteen thousand pages. Obviously, there's some
connection. Obviously, somehow they support each other. And anybody who
says anything different ... if you go to a teaching on emptiness and the person is
not going immediately onto ethics, there's something screwy. There's something
wrong. Okay, they are ultimately, intimately connected. You can not talk about
emptiness without talking about compassion and leading a good life. It's
impossible.      Okay, one does not stand without the other.             Learning
compassion ... you can't learn ultimate compassion without knowing
emptiness ... and very importantly, you can't study emptiness without knowing
compassion. You you couldn't ever have an emptiness which is unrelated to an
ethical way of life. The minute you start talking about emptiness ... the guy
better start talking about ethical living within about a day. Okay [laughs] or he
don't know what he's talking about. Okay, they must tie together. There is a tie.
Or the Buddha would not have spent equal air time on the two. Okay, obviously
they must be related. Okay and we'll talk more about that tomorrow. Okay?
We'll do ..{Umze-la} are you ready?

[prayer: short mandala]
[prayer: dedication]