ACI 4 «Доказательство будущих жизней», занятие 3

Class Three
July 29, 1994
Transcriber: Karen Becker



(cut) What you're gonna get tonight is from the second chapter of Dharmakirti's
work and he defines what (tse ma) is. So we're gonna we're gonna do that
tonight. (cut) (repeat)(miluway rikpa) (repeat) (Sardu)(repeat) (miluway rikpy).
That's the definition of (tse ma), pramana. Okay. This is the definition of correct
perception.     Valid perception.      (Sardu) means "fresh", fresh, it's a fresh
perception. We'll talk about it. (Miluwa) means
"unerring". Not in error. Okay. And (rikpa) means "state of
mind". (Rikpa) means "state of mind".

(student: (unclear))

(Miluwa) means un unerring, not mistaken. That's the definition of pramana.
That's the definition of (tse ma). And there are five kinds of mind...states of
mind, that are not (tse ma). And you you should know them, okay. It's not on
your homework, but it's good to know (laughs). There went that (unclear)
(laughs) okay. These are called (tse min qyi lo). (Tse min) means "non
pramanas".

(student: Michael, to state that definition would be state of
mind which was not made mistaken at first. )

Yeah, a fresh...you can also say a "fresh unmistaken perception".
But they try to use a different word from perception to define
perception... you see what I mean? So they say, a "fresh
unerring state of mind". And we'll talk about that. So we're
gonna give...I'm gonna give you five kinds of (tse min). (Tse
min) is the opposite of (tse ma), okay. (Tse min) means (tse
min) means "a non-pramana", something that's not a correct
perception. You want to just go ahead? You want to just go
ahead? The first one is called (lok she...lok she). (Lok) means
(lok) is an interesting word...it means "ass-backwards". I can't
think (laughs) (laughter) I don't know...that's the best...we
don't have a good word in English. It's except for that. It
means not just wrong but diametrically wrong. You know.

(student: You don't mean flipped?)

Like wrong but not just off the mark, but opposite, you know.

(student: You mean way off or opposite a hundred and eighty
degrees?)

Almost opposite, yeah. Often, usually opposite. Like (mok ta)
which is "wrong view" means it's not just that you're not sure
about karma, you don't believe it. You specifically don't
believe it. But this (lok she)...the classical example of (lok
she) is when you get very sick...if you've ever been to India and
if you ever studied in Dharamsala, you probably got hepatitus
from the water there, and according to Tibetan medicine, when you
get hepatitus you get an excess of wind in the channels, and wind
has a blue color, so you see things as blue or yellow, it's
interesting. When you get certain kinds of diseases you see
things that are different colors. So they say if in Tibet you've
 got certain diseases you look at a snow mountain and it looks
yellow it looks yellow or blue to you, that's a (lok she). Okay.
 That's not a pramana. It's not a blue mountain.

(student: Seeing something that is not really the color)

Snow is not blue. It's it's a mistaken perception because you're
drugged up or you're drunk. Remember that we said pramana
couldn't be any of those things, so you're sick or you're drugged
up or you're very upset, or you have a strong emotion like
jealousy and and you think you see something where there's
nothing there. That's all (lok she). Okay. Those are all (lok
she).

(student: So (lok) is is backwards?)

(Lok) means "backwards or wrong". (She) means "knowledge" or
perception.
(student: That makes it wrong).

Very wrong, okay. I'll put I'll put one over here.

(student: Number two?)

Say (te-tsom) (repeat) (te-tsom) (repeat). (Te-tsom)
means...it's a difficult word...the main meaning is "doubt", it's
defined as a mind which is split about the object. Split into
two points about the object, so and there's several kinds of (te-
tsom). For example, one is (dun min gyur kyi te-tsom). That's
where you say...that's where you're not sure about something and
you're tending to the wrong thing, you know, if somebody says,
"is the, is the world round" and you say, "well, I'm not sure,
but I kind of think it's flat", that's a (dun min gyur kyi te-
tsom). That's it's it's a kind of a a doubt or an uncertainty
which is tending towards the wrong. The wrong view. And then
(dun gyur kyi te-tsom) means a kind of doubt where you say,
"well, I kind of think it's round but I'm not quite sure". And
those are (te-tsoms). Those are not pramana, okay. So to have a
doubt or to not be sure about something you don't you're not
grasping that object clearly, directly, you're not sure about the
object, so it's not a pramana. (Te-tsom) is a it's the second
kind of non-pramana.

(student: So then it doesn't matter if you accurately perceive
it as long as you're not sure of the perception, is that the
idea?)

Yeah, right. So (dun gyur gyi te-tsom) means, you know, I think
it was him that killed that lady, but I'm not sur...you know, if
it turns out that he did, that will be a (dun gyur gyi te-tsom)
but still you...because you're not clear it's not it's not
correct yet.

(student: Would you write those two down?)

Excuse me?

(student: Would you write those two down? Those two (unclear))
Long story.

(student: It's it's you're not sure but yet you make a
statement?)

No. If you do make a statement based on a (tse min), you've done
a...you're not a Buddhist...I mean, Buddhists are not...it's
classic that we're not allowed to say anything unless we have a
(tse ma) about it. We're not supposed to.

(student: So if if you're if you're eyes are if something is
bothering you, you can't see it very clearly, you don't have your
glasses on, I mean that could be either one in a way right?)

Yeah, what they thought about you're seeing...nor sure what it
is, that (tse min). It's a non-promena.

(student: But it couldn't be the other one also, it couldn't be
(lok she) (unclear))

It's (lok she) if you say, if you can't see it clearly, (lok she)
would be, there's a scare crow and you say it's a person because
your eyes are not clear. But (te tsom) would say, "I'm not sure
if it's a person or not", it's still not a pramana. These are
all examples of...pramana can be direct or deductive, and I'm
giving you five states of mind which are neither. These are five
states of mind which are not pramana. Therefore, if you see
something with these five you can't say that that thing what,
what's the definition of existence? (Tse me rigpa). So if you
don't perceive it with a pramana you can't be sure that it
exists.

(student: What if you see it but you don't know what it is?)

It's a pramana towards an unknown object (laughs) (laughter) It
happens.

(student: (Te tsom) is the perception of your own uncertainty?))
No, that's not a, that's a pramana.

(student: That is a pramana.)

Yeah, I'm not sure is a (tse may) statement. (Tse ma) has all
these meanings...(tse ma) pramana doesn't just mean...we're gonna
get into it...it doesn't just mean that state of mind. It can
mean "valid" or what's a good word, there's a word in English,
"reasonable". I mean it's reasonable to say "I doubt". If your
perception of your doubt is a pramana. The doubt itself is
unclear towards it's object, so it's not a pramana.

(student: Another question I have, when we talk about inductive
pramana, we translate that as deductive valid perception, yet the
idea of something being deductive in English is not something we
would really (unclear) the idea of perception.)

But that, yeah.

(student: (unclear) we had the idea of the immediacy of a
perception, what I'm wondering is does that carry over into
Buddhist logic wherein the ability to prove something logically
or deductively is allied with immediate perception.)

Yeah, that's exactly it. The whole point is that by the time you
finish this class you develop a sense, a sixth sense called
deduction, and you trust it, because you understand the rules of
deduction which takes a long time to study, years, you you
develop a real ability to perceive objects which the people
around you can't see, and you and that's a valid it's as good as
your eyeballs, but you you've gotta learn first the rules of of
deduction, the reasoning, and once you know them clearly, and
then you see something with it, you can trust that it exists,
that's a pramana. That's the whole purpose of studying this.
Yeah.

(student: Why are you including inductive?)

I don't know the difference between inductive (laughs) and things
like that.
(student: Inductive is going from particular to general and
deductive is general to specific.)

The only thing here is, there's three different kinds, it's a
long story...it would take you a couple years to study it, but
basically based on a reason, you perceive that object. That's
the definition of it.

(student: right (unclear) logical thought process)

Based on a vali on a good reason you perceive it. It's not
really deduction in the in the logical sense, in the formal logic
sense, yeah?

(student: So in the case where you know, these in the
scriptures and such they talk about the lamas perceiving the hell
realms and etc etc, is this what they mean then?)

No, there's a big debate about it in fact, you know. They say,
is the Buddha just a great logician or did he really see...does
he really see the three times. And the answer is he has what's
called (nel jor mung sum) yogic direct perception, and in a deep
state of meditation he sees directly those three, and
that's...those lamas see directly these things. Okay. So that's
the second kind of (tse min). (Tse min gyi lo) okay.

(student: Of which there's two types of (te tsom), things that
you're not sure of that you're going the wrong way...)

One where you're tending the right way and one where you're
tending the wrong way. But you don't, you know, I'm not going to
ask you that, this is just interesting to know. Okay. Let's
just see...does that thing come off, the one in the middle? So
say, (che she) (repeat) (che she) (repeat). (Che she) is defined
as (tok shin tokpay rikpa) (laughter) (laughs) and that means
"the perception, the perception of something that you've already
perceived." And you can call it recollection. For example, if I
say look up here, okay, and then I say what did you see? You
that's a (che she). Okay, that that moment later when you have a
mental image of that pen, that black...the perception of the
black top is a (che she). It's a (che she). Why? It's
not...that perception is not triggered by the blackness itself
and you don't have a clear, direct perception of that blackness
anymore, and so it's a (che she). The the blackness that you're
seeing a second later in your mind is very flimsy compared to,
you know, blackness that created that first consciousness of
blackness, and that's called (che she) and that's not it's not a
(tse ma) in this school. Okay. We're in the mind only school.

(student: Michael, are you talking about only immediately
afterwards or is any (unclear) recollection?)

Any any subsequent, yeah, any recollection of the previous
perception is called (che she) and that's not a (tse ma). It's
not a pramana.

(student: So you say I had I had a (tse ma) but I don't have
that (tse ma))

It's based on a (tse ma). It's triggered by a (tse ma). It's
it's

(student: So if we wha what if somebody has seen emptiness then
afterwards say they don't have a (tse ma) about it anymore?)

No longer a direct perception.

(student: Right. So (tse ma) exists only in the immediate
present?)

(Sardu)

(student: fresh)

Fresh. Fresh perception.

(student: That means all(unclear))

Yeah, in this school. The higher schools
(student: (unclear))

The higher schools say, frankly, that a (che she)...it's one of
the differences between the highest school and the other schools.
 There's a list of differences between the schools and the higher
schools believe that (che she) is a (tse ma). It's a (tse ma)
towards the image of black. So that's we can accept that. But
but you're in the lower school right now and you have to stay in
this school 'cause you'll get confused and you won't be a good
Mind Only scholar if you mix up. This is Mind Only and
Sautantrika you're studying. And it's very good to master other
schools because they're very useful ideas that you can use when
you...supposedly when you teach people everybody has a different
you know, level and when you if you know all the schools you can
use the appropriate tool for that person. But if you mix them
all up then you get, you know, you've been to lectures that were
pretty confusing (laughs) and you have to keep them separate and
you have to...to know the differences between the school is very
healthy for your own meditation, 'cause sometimes a thought from
a lower school pops into your mind and you say, oh that that's a
pretty good idea, and it's not a bad idea, the Buddha taught that
idea...it's not quite correct. I know the correct one. Yeah?

(student: So if you were doing the generation stage of a
practice and you were visualizing a tantric deity, would it be a
(che she)? In your mind (unclear)

(Tumo zang tumo y lam ma jepe (unclear) de yiche) Remember that?
 From the... what was that thing? Is it's Maitreya Buddha
(unclear)

(student: one, two)

(student: (unclear)

And the Sakyas made the mistake of?

(student: Mixing them (unclear))
Mixing them together. Mentioning one (laughs) mentioning (tumo
ma imba) in a unique teaching while they were teaching (unclear)

(student: This whole thing is the opposite (unclear))

It means I can't answer (laughs) it. All right. We studied that
(unclear), right?

(student: (unclear))

(student: Yeah)
(Che she) So that's (che she). I'll give you another one now.
So how many have we had, one...

(students: This is four.)

(Yi chu) is a...the other class came up with a good name for
that...what was it, speculation, a guess.

(student: (unclear) recollection?)

No, recollection (laughs) (laughter) this is, you know, after I
taught you guys that quotation of the Buddha and we went to work
and I started to realize that all the assumptions I've made about
 most of the people there could well be very wrong. I guess you
can call this "assumption" too. You see. Those are all (yi
chus). I mean I don't really know that this guy's bad and I
don't really know that this lady's dumb and I don't really know
that, you know, I don't know any of those things, they I can say
to me it looks that way based on what they've done so far, but
you make big mistakes, and there's very famous...that you don't
know who's a bodhisattva, and you can't think badly of a
bodhisattva...it's much worse than thinking badly of another
person who's not a bodhisattva. So, they say you have to be very
very careful. We've learned that about some of the vows this
weekend, on a different note. So I I think if you examine
carefully you'll find that most of your perceptions about other
people are really (yi chus), they're really speculation and
they're they're not pramana. You really don't know what another
person's (laughs) thinking, you know, so you have to say, to live
in this world of wishing the best for everyone and not really
letting yourself think that you know that they are bad or good is
very healthy, I think, maybe that would be a nice state of mind
to be in. Yeah?

(student: This makes me think...)

It doesn't mean that you should condone what they do wrong,
'cause that's obviously wrong. When they hurt someone...killing
is wrong. Hurting is wrong. What their motivation was you can't
you don't really know. Yeah.

(student: Well, so if if you want to use the example you just
used, for instance, you're thinking about somebody, and you
really have, actually, no matter how sure you think you are about
what they are thinking, you actually have uncertainty, right?)

Yeah.

(student: Now, if you recognize that you have uncertainty about
what someone is thinking, is that a (tse ma), I mean)

That's a (tse ma). We (unclear) basically. Yeah. That's a good
question. To know that you're...to know that you don't

(student: When you see something from a certain angle, the angle
that you get, is it (unclear))

Knowing that you don't know is a is a very healthy kind of
knowledge. It'll keep you out of trouble, according to the
Buddha, okay.

(student: Not enough of that in this world.)

I'm so proud I remembered them all. (laughter). My computer
broke the other night and I was like (laughter). I drew a blank
on some of those...there's nothing to do about it. Say (nang la)
(repeat) (ma ngepa) (repeat) (nang la) (repeat) (ma ngepa)
(repeat. (Nang la) means "it appears to you but" (ma ngepa)
means "you you don't ascertain it". It appears but you don't
ascertain, and what it means is you think of a good English
word...I don't know if there is a good English word...but it
means when a a kid is absorbed by a TV show and the mother calls
the child to dinner, and he doesn't respond and then the mother
goes up and bams him, you know, and says (laughs) you know I
called you for dinner. Didn't you hear me? And he says, you
know, I was aware of something...I I heard something but I can't
describe to you what you said, you know, I can't repeat to you
what you said. I I admit that I was aware of something on on
another level, in the background, but I I can't remember what it
was you said. And that's called (nang la ma ngepa).

(student: You have to have had some awareness)

Yeah, it's but...you don't (ngepa). (Ngepa) means "to ascertain
or to fix something" and (nang) means it appeared to your mind to
your perceptions and and you had some kind of fuzzy perception of
it, but you didn't really grasp that object. I don't I don't
know what you want to call that. Huh?

(student: You know something's you know something's happening
but you don't know what it is.)

You don't you don't mentally

(student: That's what Bob Dylan says.)

mentally (laughter) oh, okay. He must have been before his time.

(student: When that happens in a dream state, is that the same
thing?)

I I'm not sure.

(student: When you're when you're dreaming and you know
somethings going on and you want to stay with it but you can't?)

Generally dreams are (lok she). If if in the dream you believe
the dream. If you think you're really being chased by an
elephant and that's a (lok she), you know. (Nang la ma ngepa)
means your your attention is diverted by something and then you
you're fuzzy, you have...aren't these all kind of fuzzy
perceptions, you see. I mean, aside from (lok she) which is just
plain wrong, the others are all just kind of unclear perceptions.
And those are not (tse ma) And that's...so I don't know what
you want to call that, so what do you (laughs)

(student: Being dimly aware.)

Yeah, like that.

(students: Distracted. Dimly aware)

It's it's the it's the perception that accompanies the
distraction, yeah.

(student: So let's say you're standing there, walking down the
street, and somebody's like doing something behind your back, and
you don't see them, you don't have you don't hear them, there's
no you know, the (unclear) tactile or sensory perception of them)

Right.

(student: Would that still fit into this category because you're
missing it, you're not seeing it, it's )

Well yeah, if you if if the next moment somebody said, "did you
hear the guy behind you" and you say "oh yeah, you know, I was
aware of something...I I didn't really fix on it.

(student: No but I'm saying...)

(Nang la ma ngepa) is fixed.

(student: I'm saying you don't, you don't have a clue.)

No, that's not that's just a non perception. It's not a
perception. So those are the five (tse mins) and if you really
honestly evaluate all your perceptions during the day, I'm afraid
a lot of them are fuzzy, you know, and a lot of them are (yi
chu), you know, a lot of them are...you have to admit that they
are assumptions and that they could very well be wrong, and to to
live in your moral world that way is very healthy I think, you
know. It's very good to live in a kind of state where you you're
aware of your own limitations and that maybe what you're seeing
is not completely true, and and I know since we had the first
class that's been very helpful for me. It's it's gotten, it's
made me really, allowed me to be better around other people
'cause I I can I understand I can't judge them and then a lot of
times you then become more sensitive to all the mistakes you made
judging people, you know. Somebody asked (unclear). Okay. So
those are the five those are the five (tse mins).

(student: Would you say that that last one could be that you're
just vaguely aware of (unclear)

Yeah, yeah. Right. And and the implication is that because
you're fixed on something else. You know. The other example I
think they give in scripture is a cat watching a mousehole, and
you yell at the cat and the cat is you know, he's like, and he's,
you know, if he could talk he'd say, "yeah, I heard you yell at
me but I but I didn't quite catch what you said."

(student: (unclear))

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah (laughs) (laughter) He's aware, he just
doesn't wanna (laughs) admit it.

(student: Michael, isn't it also a quality that while these are
happening you are unaware that they're happening and you
think...)

No you have...they all involve some kind of either wrong
perception or some kind of fuzzy perception.

(student: But but again, if you were having a fuzzy perception
but you were aware that you were having a fuzzy perception...)

Oh that's fine. That's a (tse ma).
(student: Right)

You say, I'm...if you tell your mom, "look mom, you know, I was
watching TV and I didn't see you and I apologize."

(student: I know you said something...yeah yeah, right.)

And then you're aware that you had a a (nang la ma ngepa) and
that's a (tse ma).

(student: Or if you're seeing the the mountain as blue but you
know it's not blue it's just because you're ill...)

The sense perception is a non (tse ma) and the mental perception
of the sense perception is a (tse ma).

(student: Yeah)

And that...after you see the state called illusion, living in the
world of illusion, you know, understanding the illusion is
exactly that, because after you see emptiness directly for the
first time, in the highest school, and then whe...actually the
way it really happens, you you know you're wrong all the time
after that. So you have (tse ma) (laughs) you finally get a (tse
ma) according according to highest school you've never had a (tse
ma). You've never have a anything but mistaken perceptions until
the time you perceive emptiness directly, you know.
(student: Now what'd you say, in all these you have some
perception but it's)

Right.

(student: the wrong perception.)

They're they're they're not precise. They're not clear and
they're not strong and they're not (sardu miluwa), they're not
fresh and they're not unerring. Okay. So that's the fresh part
is is important in this school. (Tse may kyebu) (repeat) (tse
may kyebu) (repeat) Okay. (Tse ma) means, generally, "a a
correct perception, a valid perception". And (kyebu) means "a
person". It's it's a word for person, individual. Okay. It
comes from the word (gye wa) which means what? (gye wa)

(student: Virtue)

Four big sufferings, ke ga na chi.

(student: Birth?)

Birth, yeah. So (kyebu) means anyone who's been born which means
a person. That's the root of the word.

(student: Yeah, but an animal is born too.)

An an animal is a (kyebu). In in Buddhism person can refer to an
animal.

(student: All sentient beings?)

Individual, yeah, a being. Yeah. So (tse may kyebu) means "a
person of pramana, a pramana person. Can a person be a pramana?
No, okay. There's three kinds of changing objects in the
universe. Mind...mental objects, physical objects, and then
there's things called like conceptual objects, and and the idea
of Mike is is in the third category, the idea of Helen is, you
know, it's a concept. Helen is not Helen's body. Helen is not
Helen's mind. Helen is an idea that's imposed on her body and
mind. You can't hurt Helen with a stick and Helen doesn't get
angry, Helen's mind gets angry, so that's (tse may kyebu) isn't
can't be, a person can't be (tse ma). A person can't be a mental
state. That's like saying you are anger. Or you are jealousy.
That's not...they're they're exclusive.

(student: You mean any being?)

Nobody, yeah.

(student: That was just figurative a...)

You have a you have anger, but you are not (unclear)
(student: No in the opening statement, that was just figurative,
the one who (unclear))

(Tse may gye pa) Well, well that's what I'm trying to say right
now. Can there be a person who's (tse ma)? Not in the sense of
a (sardu miluway rikpa), not in the sense of a mind, state of
mind, but the Buddha is called (tse ma). (Tsa me kye) The
person of (tse ma). So in that case (tse ma) doesn't mean a
mental state. It means he's the person who has that mental state
and only that mental state. Okay. So what they're trying to say
is a Buddha is a perfect person. A buddha is never incorrect. A
Buddha is totally correct. (Tse may kyebu) means "a person who
is totally correct". (Tse may) is the state of mind which is
correct, and (tse may kyebu) means the person who only has those
states of mind.

(student: (unclear))

And that's the whole idea, in fact, the chapter that you're
studying from Dharmakirti is called (Tse ma drup de lil) which
means "proving that the Buddha is (tse ma)". You know. We're
trying, we're gonna attempt to prove that the Buddha is always
correct. Yeah.

(student: So in terms of having...in terms of becoming
enlightened or developing correct perception all the time, once
one involves themselves in meditation practice has a direct
perception of emptiness, can they have correct perception all the
time just from that or must they develop it through logical
analysis constantly of the world?)

You don't have it until you're a Buddha.

(student: I'm saying but is is perceiving emptiness directly,
will that in and of itself be enough or do you have to do all the
logic also...do you see what I mean?)

Well, it's one of the...is is (tong lam) is the path of seeing
enough to reach Buddhahood and Nirvana? That's your question,
and I ask you, is it? (Tong lam) is which of the three five
paths?

(student: (unclear))

It's number three. Number five is is a tricky thing, it's not
really a path, it's the result, it's Buddhahood. So where the
ques you're asking is there, if my answer were yes there wouldn't
be a path number four. What is path number four?

(student: Habituation)

Habituation, where you're getting used to what you saw. So yeah
you're not a (tse may kyebu) the the day after you see emptiness
directly, but it helps a lot.

And then that whole (gom lam), that whole fourth path called
habituation is where you use your perception of emptiness and the
Four Noble Truths which happened right after that to to clear out
your last mental afflictions.

(student: That's not (unclear) this logical process per se,
that's just a recollection of your of your emptiness experience
and reminding yourself.)

It's both ways. You either, you both go into it directly again
and then you also review what you perceived. And the
implications of what you perceived on your life, you know. So
for example you saw that you're gonna live seven more lives. So
(laughs) you know, then you you stop being so acquisitive, you
know, you don't need things so much, you know you're going to
die, you know you're never going to be poor again, you're always
going to live in a good circumstances and you perceive all those
things, so you don't have to...you're not so concerned about it.

(student: Are you saying that the seven lives would be good for
sure?)

Yeah. Very nice life, you know, upper one and a half...upper
half percent, which is what you're in now...
(student: (unclear) either a king or a prime minister?)

You're in that now. No, you're in the...compared to all the
Ruwandans (laughs) in the world, you know, you are in the upper

(student: (unclear))

You're up in the upper...you're one in a million already, I mean,
people in this room are, physically, economically you know, one
in a million.

(student: So we did that good in the last lifetime?)

Yeah, very nice. (laughter) Excellent. (laughter)

(student: What was so good?) (laughter) (unclear) burn up bad
karma)

What is it? Pabongka said, if you can't think of anything to
rejoice about, rejoice about the fact that you were born as a
human 'cause you must have done some incredible good for you to
be born in the human realm. You can be proud of that.

(student: Not necessarily the last lifetime always)

Usually, most often, most often.

(student: You know that perception that you're gonna have seven
more lives (unclear) how do you know that there's a direct
perception that would...)

You. It's a very interesting thing that one of the side
perceptions while you are...right after you come out of
perceiving emptiness directly, and you see all these noble truths
stuff, future lives, past lives, meet Buddhas, you know, one of
the side perceptions is that you know you're not a (tse min), you
know you're having a (tse ma). You know with (tse ma ) that
you're having a (tse ma). And and that's just absolute, you you
absolutely have that, and and it's one of the side effects of
those...the incredible effect of ultimate reality, on your mind,
is that for for a good period you you have all these (tse mas)
and you know you're you know you're correct. It's a nice kind of
experience (laughs) you know. You can also read other peoples
minds for a while after that.



(student: Cool) (laughter)

Okay, and you know it (tse ma) while you're doing it.

(student: And, but you may not be able to articulate it
afterwards, right, it's not just Buddhists who (unclear) this,
correct?)

Excuse me?

(student: Someone else who's done the right things in a previous
life may have the experience of it.)

Not directly.

(student: No. So you have...it can only happen to a Buddhist.)

And what's a Buddhist?

(student: Aha)

(student: Somebody who knows about the the Three Noble Tru...
the three ratnas and takes refuge in them.)

Yeah.

(student: Has the three ratnas.)

Yeah. I mean are they worshipping a picture of that being, maybe
not.

(student: But they may be seeing one of the three
But the essence of the

(student: noble ratnas)

The essence of the Three Jewels has nothing to do with the
picture of Buddha. Nothing to do with it.

(student: Right. So, someone can be worshipping a picture of
Mohammed, and actually still be addressing one of the three
ratnas)

Could be a Buddh, could be a Buddhist. And an abbot of a
monastery could be a non-Buddhist. Yeah.

(student: I was just, when you were describing this Buddha
becoming a separate, tota... perfect correct...)

Yeah, totally correct

(student: Almost, I mean it sounds, I don't know, it sounds like
like when we say conscious...it's almost a (tse ma) you know,
that the word "consciousness" implies correct (unclear), correct
perception, so in a way it almost sounds like Buddha is
consciousness, I mean that's )

Yeah, that's very very it's very relevent, yeah, he's all
knowing. We're gonna study that. We're gonna get into that.
But it but the idea here is if if we can prove that the Buddha is
(tse ma), if we can prove that the Buddha is (miluwa), that he
cannot make a booboo, that he (laughter) cannot lie, you know, if
you can prove that he cannot lie, eh I or even better, if you can
prove that he never speaks unless he knows perfectly that thing
and he's seen that it's true, then what's the implication? You
know, if you can establish that about any given person, you know,
Ariel, if we could figure out that anything that Ariel says is
absolutely true. She will not open her mouth unless what she
comes out of it is absolutely, totally true from her personal
(tse ma)

(student: And she says a lot of things.)
No, and then she comes up and says all these great things about
being moral and reaching the end of your suffering and then
you're, it's great, but the but first you have to establish that
she can't make a mistake and that she will never say something
unless she personally perceived it to be absolutely correct, you
know, then then that's very interesting, if you could meet a
person like that.

(student: Or if you ask a person like that, "are you Buddha?",
he'd have to say yes? (laughter))

We're we're gonna talk about it (laughs) (laughter)

(student: Good one.)

We're gonna talk about it.

(student: When?)

We're gonna talk about it two classes from now.

(student: How do you not know that there...how do you not know
that there saying something for a certain kind of reason?)

For what?

(student: For a certain kind of reason...for a certain kind of
result. I mean maybe)

We'll talk about it. There are rules, to answer your question,
and that come in the fifth class, you're only in the third class.
 Okay. So that's the idea of a (tse may kyebu). (unclear) Now
I'm gonna do, let's see, I need this picture.

(student: Are there degrees of (tse ma) or is it just (unclear)

They're not a (tse ma kyebu), I mean, they the words (tse may
kyebu) is applied to them sometimes in scripture, but but
literally the person who only has (tse ma) is the Buddha. But
it's said that a Buddhist master knows enough not to ever say
anything that he knows something he hasn't had a (tse ma) about.
That that there...you reach a stage before you become a Buddha
that you will never say something if you haven't had a (tse ma)
about. It's an advertisement. (laughs) (laughter)

(student: Commercial break) (laughter)

I never asked anybody for anything in my life...in my dharma
life, and I've never been asked for anything in my Dharma life.
No teacher of mine has ever asked me for a dollar and I like it
that way and I think that's the way it should be. No I've been
studying twenty years in the monastery and no one's ever asked me
for anything. A lot of teachers giv have given me back things
that I gave them, and I think that's the way it should be. Now,
there's a certain custom in the monastery when you reach a Geshe
degree which I will finish next year, it's like eighteen years
study, and then you, you have to go out and beg people for
something and I think it's supposed to be something for (unclear)
I think it's supposed to be something for humility maybe, I don't
know, the word monk in Buddhism (bhiksu) means "beggar", we're
supposed to humble ourselves at the doors of people in the
morning and ask for our our meal, and if they decide not to give
it, we don't eat (laughs), we're not allowed to keep food,
actually, so I think it has something to do that. Anyway, the
gift that I I...when you become a Geshe then you you have to
throw a big ceremony and you have to give a gift to the
monastery. So my gift is going to be a new debate park. This is
a debating park. And there's some pictures up there of our of
our park now, I I don't know if you can see it very clearly but

(student: Is that one that (unclear))

Yeah. There's a park now that...we don't even have a proper park.
 The park is supposed to be a big open park with sto flat stones
and in Tibet it had trees and it was really beautiful, and it had
a big wall, and you go into there at eight o'clock and you don't
come out until one a.m. or something and that whole time you are
intensely studying, and it that's really the engine that drives
Buddhism in Tibet, you know, it's the teaching is one thing, but
it's when the students get together for five hours straight and
beat it out of each other...you can not take a book, you must
have everything memorized, and you can run out of memorization in
about three minutes (laughter) (laughs) and you go on for four or
five hours, and it's great, it's a great system, it it's keeping
Buddhism alive in my idea it's what's really keeping this
knowledge flying in the monasteries, is the debate system, so I
wanted to give a debating park, and we have a piece of land that
we got...it's about two hundred and fifty feet square, and in
Tibet there wouldn't have been this four roofs, there was no such
thing in Tibet, they would spread gravel on the stones and when
it got cold you just put the gravel on your lap (laughter) and
you you get under the gravel like up to your waist (laughter) and
that's how they kept warm, and when you reach your about your
fourteenth year you're allowed to wear a cloak (laughs)
(laughter) tha you before that you're supposed to tough it out,
you know, and it's really cold, and and we do it outside, it's in
the stars, we didn't have electricity for years and we would
sometimes you couldn't see the guy you were debating, it's kind
of fun (laughter) but we reached the point where we have now
eight hundred and, seven hundred and seventy five monks, and our
we don't have a place to debate...it's not a good one, we we're
debating in the porch of our temple and when it rains everyone
gets wet, you just get soaked, you have to sit there on the
ground and you just get wet, and if the debate master is feeling
good he lets you go home (laughter) and if he's not around
(laughs) you sit there, you can leave, you know, so so we
designed it that there'll be a four roofs around the corner and
when the monks when it starts to rain you can move under the roof
and all the Geshe candidates they take their exams here and, you
know, big debate contests between the school, between different
classes and stuff like that, so that's my I I I pledged to to
to grub money for that. (unclear), give me one of those boxes.
So the idea is I came up with this idea that I I wouldn't ask
anybody...it's going to cost seventy thousand dollars,

(student: Does not include cost overruns?)

Yeah, and I have a budget you can see. But we came up with this
idea that I'm going to ask people that I know to keep this box in
their house and when you come home you put your spare change in
it. And you

(student: (unclear) for?)

(student: Michael, if you want a better (unclear) idea to
change, it it attracks too much attention to the)



Well we'll talk about it. Anyway, you put your change in there
ever and if you agree to sign up for this you get a new box in
the mail every (laughter)once a month (laughter) you get a new
box in the mail and you then the old box has stamps on it already
and it has this tape here and you just seal it and you dump it in
the mail box and it has padding inside, after it's full you
can't, we, she's been working on it, Marie, and we took it to the
post office and showed it to them (laughter) it's pretty cool.

(student: But I mean, Michael, wouldn't the postage equal to the
amount of change inside?)

(student: Yes)

No the postage is... she put a little...the postage is a buck
sixty-nine, and

(student: (unclear))

Well, the goal is that you put a little more in than your change
(laughs) (laughter), the goal is that you try to give two dollars
a day, okay, the goal is that you try...you know you're gonna
have seventy five or a dollar in change and then you throw in
another (laughter) dollar bill (laughter) (laughs) and the idea
is to try to hit two dollars a day and if I can get a hundred
people to do that

(student: Michael, we should just bring it in when we come to
class, and we would save postage (unclear)

No we will cut off the postage and re-use it if you bring it in,
but the idea is that you don't have any excuse. All you have to
do is lick it and throw it in a mail box. And and that's it and
Maria, there's a whole team of people, Serge Laiten is in charge
of it, and Maria's helping, and that's all, it will go on for a
year, it will go on for twenve months. If if people give about
two dollars we'll finish and they've already started planting the
mango trees

(student: Aw, that's sweet.)

The trees come up and then they link and it's good for bald marks
(laughter) and it's and it smells sweet...mango trees are very
they're very sweet

(student: (unclear))

(student: (unclear) for the hungry, though?)

(laughs) And that's the pitch. And I think...there's a couple of
other reasons. Serge needs to do this because he's he's planning
something special and I think as a center, as a group, if we
build that the karma of that will mean that these classes will go
for a long time, very beautiful results, good results for the
people in these classes. I believe that karmically that would
happen. So I believe that would be the the result we would have.
 And then I owe the monastery a lot...we wouldn't have any of
this, if there wasn't debating there I wouldn't know anything and
we'll put a plaque there with everybody's name on it (laughter),
there's gonna be no it's like a brass thing and they have they
make it there and so that so I ask you to do that if you can, and
it's no, you know me by now, it's everything here is free and no
obligation, if you can do it I'd appreciate it and if not I it's
all right, and you give your name to (unclear). Right, and your
address, and she'll give you a box for tonight and then start
today if you can tomorrow.

(student: Would you what is the deadline?)

You when you get the new box you dump the old one
(student: No no no, when is your deadline)

I'd like to finish within a year. But they're gonna start
building now, I mean, the first month I'll send

(student: Oh, so as you get money you send it in)

Yeah, and they're very good at...the monks, normally, Tibetans
monks love to build stuff and pay for it later (laughter)
(laughs) It's gotten many monasteries in trouble. Yeah.

(student: Is this for both colleges? Is it )

Well, there's a trick at Sera. First of all I'm from Sara Mey so
it would be I I have to build it for my monastery. They have
to...we don't debate together. We have we have our separate
debate grounds. Now Sera Je, the other our sister college who we
compete with, heard that I was doing this (laughter) (laughs) and
they've already selected a piece of land and they've already
started planting their trees, so what you do is you play off
(laughter) this when when when we built the water the first water
system there, we used to drink out of mud, literally mud, and
they had no water and we went to Sera...there's a Sera Government
Council, half Sera Je and half Sera Mey, and I said, you know,
I'd like to raise money for water system, to drill water, and
they said, "just do it for Sera Mey and then (laughs) Sera Je
will go out and get the money they need on their own". They have
a lot of lam...we only have one big Lama in the West, that's
Geshe Tharchin, Sera Je has Lama Zopa, Geshe Sopa, Lama Yeshe,
Geshe Rabten, and a and a lot of other in Australia they have
about seven or eight, so they're they're they're very healthy and
we're like the black sheep, we don't (laughter) (laughs) we're
always broke and our monks are skinny and (laughter) you know,
really, and we don't have enough, so that's they're doing okay
(unclear), they're doing Lama Yeshe's centers are very generous.
They just presented them with half a million dollars for their
food

(student: (whistles))
So, you know, we don't have that.

(student: So we're gonna get the karma for really initiating
(unclear) debate grounds for the first ones)

Yeah yeah yeah (laughter) they've already in fact what happened
was the the ground that I chose which is up there...it's behind
the Dalai Lama's residence at the monastery, is closer to Sera
Je, so they said, will you trade sites with us. They had one
that was very convenient for us (laughter), so it actually it's a
good luck...it's a good auspicious beginning 'cause for the first
time I think we cooperated (laughter) and we traded si sites, so
we can see the land up there, and that's gonna be Sera Je's up
there, but so I appreciate if you do it, and that's all.

(student: Whose idea was it that this monthly box thing)

I've seen them in a...when you, whenever you do your tantric
retreats you'll find that you meditate a lot everything except
(laughter) (laughs) what you're supposed to (laughter) (laughs)
you know.

(student: So this came to you during a retreat?)

Yeah, yeah. (laughter)

(student: Michael, is there going to be an accounting of )

Yeah, you can also by the way you can get a non you'll get a tax
we'll we'll count it there you don't have to worry about it,
we'll count it when it hits New Jersey, it's pre it's pre-
addressed, you don't have to do anything, you just dump it.

(student: But you can bring it here too.)

Or you can bring it here, and then we will give you receipts if
you want us to, and we'll keep a track and then that's tax
exempt, we are IRS approved and all that stuff.

(student: You know what would really be good to do would be to
chart it on the wall so people can see if (unclear) behind that.

We're going do. That's, she (unclear) right? (unclear) She ran
away. She's making the chart already, and we have a hundred
dollars, somebody

(student: All right, Nina)

threw in the first hundred. (clapping)

(student, Nina: (unclear) it's not my money, somebody give it to
me)
(student: Well, don't steal it)

You heard about that robbery on (laughs) 28th street
(laughter).(unclear) do you have the chart yet? Stilwell says
it'd be a good idea to have a chart.

(student: Not one of those thermometers, is it?)

(student: No it's it's (laughter)

Just think United Way (laughter)

(student: Actual versus needed, you know)

(student: Hey that's an idea (unclear), all right, cool)

So that's all. Have some refreshments and we'll start in about
five minutes.

(student: That's great. When did you actually budget this)

Well, I committed to find a sponsor and then I realized it would
be nice to (unclear)-lots of students talking together in
background).

(student: Michael you should have some boxes with no stamps, this
way you don't have to (unclear)
(student: If I get stuck can I borrow your battery? (laughter)

(student: Yeah yeah, well I hope (unclear)

(student: But then you waste the boxes)

(student: Well I'll let you record and I'll just have to record
(unclear)

(student: And that's boxes, you have to think about costs)

(student: See with these rechargable batteries they die fast,
like once you get down to three, they're good, and then they run
on three for a while but then like once they go from a three like
in two minutes they're gone.

(student: Yeah, you know I recharged it once and I left it in my
bag and I thought they were good and I came in here and they
weren't and I don't know how long I had them in my bag. I had
them recharged in five minutes and then they went unn.n.n.n.n.)

(student: yeah, died.)

(cut)

(dang) (repeat) (tamche kyenpa) (repeat) (dang) (repeat) (der
drupay lam) (repeat) One more time. (Tarpa dang) (repeat)
(tamche kyenpa dang) (repeat) (der drupay lam) (repeat). Okay.
You know what (tarpa) is? There's a (tarpa) publications in in
London, they call (Tharpa) bad spelling (laughter), freedom.
Freedom. Liberation. Moksha. In Sanscrit. And it refers to
Nirvana. Which the definition is (unclear Diamond) (laughs)

(student: A cessation)

Yeah

(student: which comes from the individual analysis and (unclear)

Wow.
(students: All right. (laughter and clapping)

I called her this morning and told her (laughter).

(student: (Unclear))

No that's great. Okay. They say you say the end of your mental
afflictions, the end of all your anger, jealousy

(student: Permanently)

Permanently cessation...because you saw emptiness. That's
(tarpa). That's (tarpa). Could you achieve it this evening?

(student: Yes)

Would you look different tomorrow (laughter) morning?

(students: No)

No (laughter). You'd stop scowling maybe when you get up
(laughs) and (tamche kyenpa), (tamche) means "all, everything".
By the way (dang) means "and". (dang) means "and"

(student: a n d?)

A n d. (tamche) means "everything". (Kyenpa) means "to know".
So (tamche kyenpa) is the mind of a Buddha, omniscience, all
knowingness. So, nirvana and the state of omniscience,
Buddhahood, all knowingness. And (dang) and (der) means "to
them", (der) means "to those two", to them, (drupay) means
"going, for going, for traveling" and (lam) means the what?

(students: Path)

Path. Path. So if you have to read that part in Tibetan
normally you start from the back, so what is it? The (lam)

(students: The path)
For (dru pa)

(student: The path for traveling)

For going to those

(student: To those two things)

So there's three things being mentioned here; one is nirvana, one
is omniscience of Buddhahood and one is the path to get there.
And the purpose of the whole second chapter of Dharmakirti's
book, which is what you're studying if anybody ever asks you, is
to try to prove that these three even exist.

(student: What would the full statement be?)

Nirvana, Buddhahood and the path for traveling to them.

(student: It's a it's a clause, it's not a sentence)

Yeah. There's no sentence. Yeah. Nirvana, omniscience and the
path to get to them. Those are the three things that we want to
try to establish ea...and and Kedrup Je we if you came to the
Friday night class Tsongkapa's you know, one of his two great
disciples, he said, frankly speaking, you and I aren't...we don't
even have a (tse ma) if there is such a thing as a Buddha. You
know. We are Buddhists and we are studying Buddhism to achieve
Buddhahood and we cannot...Kedrup Je says you can't give me three
(laughs) good arguments why Buddhism exis...Buddhists...the state
of a Buddha, enlightenment, even exists. You know, you're not
sure. It's a (te tsom). You have a (tse min). You you're not
really sure, you know, and you're not really sure that nirvana
exists or that it's possible, much less how to get to there, you
know,so so really if you're a good Buddhist logician, the first
thing you have to admit is that maybe (laughs) there's no such
thing, you know, you're not sure that they even exist, and the
and the function of this whole chapter and really the reason
future lives and past lives come up is is in conjunction with try
trying to prove these three, that they even are possible and that
they even exist. And that's the big job of pramana. That's why
we're spending so much time on (tse ma). We want to try to get a
(tse ma) about these three. Then then if you if you really had a
(tse ma) that these things were possible, that they existed, then
you could make some good progress, you know, if you if you had
some pretty convincing evidence that such a thing as nirvana was
possible, then your life would change a lot, your behavior would
change a lot, you know, yeah.

(student: I didn't understand the connection (unclear)

I didn't...there was no connection made yet. I just threw it out
as a as a morsel, you know, you're gonna get that later...it's a
good question, you know, what connection is there between this
class which is supposed to be about past and future lives, by the
way that...the proof of past and future lives is found in this
chapter, but it's not why he wrote the chapter...it's a side
issue. But for westerners it's pretty, you know, we want to know
about it, so that's what I named the course 'cause it's cute, but
it's really just a side issue and it doesn't even come until the
seventh class I believe. What we're trying to prove is that
these three things are even possible, and that's that's gonna be
the main thing. Now what kind of (tse ma)s are there? How many
kinds of (tse mas)? Basically two. Basically two. What are
they?

(student: Direct (unclear))

Direct and?

(students: Deductive reasoning)

You can call it deductive or reasoning is maybe better, okay.
The first is defined as not depending on a reason. The second is
dep is defined as depending on a reason. Based on a good reason
you see something, you perceive something. Okay, That's de what
we're calling deductive reasoning. And there's two

(student: (unclear))
By the way are these things...what level of reality are these
three things on?

(student: The first is direct and obvious. (unclear) (laughs))

I'd say you know some of it's hidden and some of it's deeply
hidden. Okay. So what kind of...of which which one of those two
(tse mas) are you gonna have to rely upon?

(students: Deductive)

Deductive. There's two types of deductive...did we do that?

(student: No)

Yeah, there are three. Did we do three?

(student: No we we never talked about it (unclear))

Oh, okay, all right. Well we'll I'll mention it briefly and then
we'll stop. Three kinds of deductive perception. The one you
use for deep objects is is what you normally think of as
reasoning...you can say reasoning. Log...you can say logical
reasoning, maybe that's correct. The second one depends on
belief in an authority.

(student: Believe or belief?)

Belief in an authority. Do you do you...in other words you're
going to examine the person who's saying it and if you can come
up with some compelling reason that he can't lie or that he won't
say anything that's not true, and then he says something very
deep, you you you can't perceive the the truth of it. Those are
for deeply hidden things.

(student: I don't follow the structure here)

In other words if you want to perceive a hidden thing...watch
this pen, (laughs) okay...did it hit the floor?
(student: Deductive reasoning.)

That's deduction. You did not see the pen hit the floor, you're
that's (kok gyur) for you, that's hidden. It's not deeply hidden
because you don't need my authority you don't have to believe
that I'm a person who never lies, and I say, the pen hit the
floor...you don't need that. It's it's not that deep (laughs)
you know. (laughter) All right. If it were that deep you'd need
me to say, look, did I ever lie to you (laughs) (laughter) and I
I'm telling you, the pen hit the floor. You know, and I can't
lie, you know, I never lie and and and you find some compelling
reasons to why I can't lie and then I tell you the pen hit the
floor, then that would be deep... if it were deeply hidden,
something that you could never see on your own even with
thinking, but it's just someone has to present it to you and then
based on your deductive reasoning that he can't lie, you you take
it. Yeah.

(student: I I I guess when you described it last time, last
session, I thought you were saying, you know, about some
(unclear) you know, we don't understand that, but if you know we
trust the authority and then we read it then we see it, that, I
mean is that)

Oh eventually it it all

The Proof of Future Lives
Class 3, part 3
Transcriber: Karen Becker

(student: I mean, is that also hidden, is that also very hidden?
 I mean is that also on that level? Does it have to be proven?)

Oh, that's a good question...no. It doesn't have to be.

(student: So so that's the first part of what you're saying.
Logical reasoning is used for hidden things and the second part
of what you're saying, how does that relate?)

It's the second part I'm saying that we for very hidden things,
deeply hidden things, you need authority, a person of authority,
a (tsemay kyebu), you know, that person that can

(student: (unclear))

Yeah, you could never figure it out on your own. You need
someone to come and say, that's the way it is, and then you need
some deductive reasoning to prove why he can't lie. Why he would
never lie.

(student: For following his reasoning about it? I mean if he)

No, then it would be deductive. You see.

(student: Oh I see)

The Buddha can teach you logic and you can perceive emptiness in
this class, intellectually. That's a deductive perception at
that time.

(student: So it doesn't have to do with the (unclear))

No not no. And then there's a third one which is not too
important and it's not mentioned very much if you want to be
complete about it...there's a kind of perception that about
conventions. What is conventions mean? It means we all agree to
call the moon a ball of cheese or something, okay. And you
normally a convention has to have a a a sort of a good reason
behind it, you know, it looks like it's got holes in it like a
piece of cheese. That's called convention by similarity. And
then we all agree to call it...or the man in the moon. Okay. We
say there's a man there. It means there's a drawing of a man.
So that means just between all of us we all agree to call
something something. And that's and you can perceive that that
thing can reasonably be called that. That's called it...that's
the third kind of deductive perception.

(student: (unclear))

(student: Similar)
In other words if I say okay Marie decided tonight...we were
searching for a name for these boxes and she decided...we kind of
 decided to call it a "Dharma Box". Okay. So it's a Dharma Box.
 Now now next time I come into the class and I say, did anyone
send in their Dharma Box (laughs) you know, you all know what I'm
talking about. You know. Why? Because you can say, well, I
remember last week we agreed to call this thing a Dharma Box.
And there's no better reason than that.

(cut) So the the convention can be anything that you can
imagine. That's the limitation of convention. And well it's not
very important (laughs) okay. The point is, to perceive these
three things you're gonna need either reasoning, logic, or you're
gonna need authority and to get authority you've gotta prove that
that person is is totally correct person.

(student: Which is based upon logic and reasoning?)

I'm gonna...yeah, yeah. And I'm gonna go into that. That's a
big subject.

(student: So Michael, we had for deep objects, for very deep
objects and for conventionally agreed upon objects?)

Excuse me?

(student: What we)

Oh. The first kind of deductive reasoning, logical reasoning, is
used for objects which are hidden. The second kind of deductive
reasoning which is based on authority is used for objects which
are deeply hidden. The examples are emptiness and the very
subtle workings of karma, okay. Emptiness is easy enough for you
to figure out with logic, you can perceive emptiness directly
based on logic. You can never see the deep workings of karma
based on logic. You have to have a an omniscient being come to
you and say, look, you know, the reason your ear is shaped like
that is that a million years ago you hit somebody, you know, you
just could never see it on your own with logic. The third one is
got nothing to do with deep or not deep. It's just things that
we agree to call something. So you don't have worry...don't
worry about the third one. Don't sweat on that one. It's the
first two that you're gonna need to perceive these things, and
you're very much want to. You know, if I could convince you that
there is such a thing as nirvana, really, if I could really get
you to a state where you could see with a (tse ma) that nirvana
exists, your life would change. You know, you you come to this
class because of what we call a (bak chak), karmic seed from your
past life. You enjoy it or you're attracted to it...you en you
kind of like it, but but you probably if you are who you seem to
be which I don't know, you you probably don't have a (tse ma)
about nirvana. And what really what it is, and if you came out
of this class with a (tse ma) about what is nirvana and what is
Buddhahood, your life would change. You know. Then your goal
would be very clear to you because you would see that it's
possible to reach this state where you don't have to die. And
you don't have to get old and you don't have to have suffering
anymore, you know, that would be...and if if you really believed
that such a thing was possible your life would totally change,
you know, and that that's the whole purpose of this class. We're
trying to get a (tse ma) about that about that thing, and we're
gonna try, we we really will try and I think at least you'll come
out with a pretty strong tendency that this thing does exist and
I can reach it, you know, so that's exciting. Okay. I have one
more installment of the sutra...I don't wanna read it tonight but
maybe next time I'll have someone get up and read it. It's a
very interesting sutra. The other class is translating it. And
I appreciate if you can comment on the translation.

(student: (unclear))

I made more, yeah, I will. And Anila's...you you did the word
processing? She worked this up on her on her (unclear), Sarah
did the translation. (unclear) This is a this sutra has very big
meaning and by the end of the class when you get to the last line
of the sutra you'll know why. I think that's all (unclear)

(students: Homework? )
Oh the homework. (laughter)

(student: Is this a real picture?)

(student: It is nirvana)

(student: Is this a picture (laughter) yeah, I know, but I mean
is this a real, is it a real)

It's a color shot.

(student: Ah, that's neat)

And then you get a new picture every month.

(students: Wow. Different. Ahhhh.)

Yeah

(student: (unclear))

(student: Do you have any more of the translations (unclear)

Excuse me? I don't have more but maybe Anila can run some more
off next week. Can you run some more off, later?

(students; (unclear))

How many how many more people wanna wanna translation.

(student: me)

Maybe like four or five more.

(student: I'll pass them on down (unclear))

I didn't ask you to type in the other class (laughter)

(students: (all talking together at once)
Kiley, you ready?

(student: Unclear))

(prayer: short mandala)

(prayer: dedication)
940801-1.aaa
15a.txt

Course IV: The Proof of Future Lives