ACI 3 «Прикладная медитация», занятие 7

Class Seven: Nine Stages of Concentration
March 10, 1994
first part completed by: Leslie Inman
second part completed by: David Farrell



[student:... week stuff like that you know for like a {sam nan} Bill's doing one for
{shamata} and you know like a weekend or a week long tantric retreat also.
What's the you know you said you have to do a strong practice everyday and
just these five hour sessions aren't gonna really make any difference, is there any
real value in going and doing a weekend]

Oh, on top of your regular [laughs] it's great. It's fantastic. It's very useful.

[student: hum]

Very wonderful.

[student: Yeah, perhaps, we can organize something like that after people who
wanna take their vows take there vows.]

Yeah.

[student: We could go away for a weekend or somewhere or something like
that]

Well, [unclear] was talking about coming to Arizona, I don't know, he [unclear]
[laughs]

[student: Pardon?]

[laughter]

[student: [unclear] during your retreat?]

[student: Right.]
[student: Yeah, I asked him bout that]

Someday [laughs].

[student: He said last thing you need is a bunch of your students in your hair
when you're on retreat.]

I don't have any hair, so they can't be in it [laughs] [laughter], no just [unclear]

[student: Oh more than most monks like]

I would put them... I would put you in some other town probably

[student: On the other side of the mountain]

[laughter]

The last thing is Rinpoche had agreed to teach here, April twenty-fourth, which is
a Sunday, but if his Holiness is teaching at Columbia the same [unclear], I don't
know if he is

[student: Yeah.]



Is that the dates?

[student: No, he's not then.]

[student: It's Thursday and Friday. That was before that]

Oh, was it?

[student: Yeah.]

Good.

[student: [unclear]]

Yeah, Rinpoche can't teach when the Dalai Lama, when his teacher is teaching in
that city, he can't teach.
[student: It's not teaching.]

That's fine.

[student: It's a conference.]

Well, I mean even then. He wouldn't be able, wouldn't be allowed. He wouldn't
want to do it. So, is that sure? His Holiness, Thursday and Friday? Anybody
know for sure?

[student: I couldn't tell from memory, but I have it at home.]

[student: I do.]

[student: I have it written down as the twenty-sixth and the twenty-seventh.
That's what Snow Lion said.]

So that's the day after that.

[student: Tuesday and Wednesday.]

Tuesday and Wednesday.

[student: Tomorrow week.]

Okay. Well, if it doesn't conflict, [unclear] {Gelsang Khappa} will do it.

[student: What will he do?]

He'll do the text on the Thousand Angels text that you're, so that's why I didn't
go through it. Cuz he's gonna go through it.

[student: unclear]

And that's what you base your daily practice on.

[student: When is that? [unclear] Sunday and what ..]

Sunday, the twenty-fourth of April here, unless we might take a bigger space.
We have some space we're looking at.

[student: What time?]

He... he was great, you know normally he would only teach like an hour in the
afternoon. He said he'll teach all day. He'll do a session at ten. He'll do a session
at two. And you guys get first, you guys get in first and then we might have to
close and if there's enough space.

[student: You said that's what you do for your daily practice?]

Yeah. It's the thing... it's a very short thing you recite just before you do your
practice. It's at the back of your notebook. It's basically a seven ingredients
practice. [unclear]

[student: Which if you're already doing another practice which incorporates that,
then you don't worry about it?]

Yeah. Like the six session has it in it. But... but it's not... in the monastery we
always do it anyway before the six sessions [laughs]. It's good if you can do it.
Okay, I think that's … Is that all the announcements?

[prayer: refuge]

[prayer: short mandala]

[silence]

[student: Who translated this?]

[student: This [unclear]]

[silence]

{Sem ne gu} means "the nine states of meditation".

[student: [unclear]]

[unclear] Nine states of meditation. Meaning as you go through the five
problems and as you apply them. How many are there ? Eight....
[student: eight]

Eight corrections. You move up through nine different levels. So, we're... we're
covering those nine different levels. What are we on, by the way, we finished...
we have five big subjects to study. One was

[student: Preparation?]

Preparation. One... next was?

[students: Environment [unclear]]

Environment. Meaning mental and physical. Then it was?

[student: {Vairochana's} posture.]

{Vairochana's} posture. And now we're on to the mental technique.

[student: How to do it.]

And we're... we're in the third part of that and we've finished the problems and
we've finished the corrections. Now we tie that into what is it like. What... what
kind of states are you reaching as you go through those problems, okay, and
they're nine different states.

[student: Michael, do you mean to say as you encounter each problem, that's
considered a state or as... or what you achieve after you overcome the problem,
[unclear] considered a state?]

You'll see. Okay. I think your question'll be answered as I describe them, okay.

[student: So what... what is {sem ne gu}?]

{Sem} means "mind". {Ne} means "state". {Gu} means "nine". I'm sorry. {Sem}
means "mind". Right. {Ne} means "state". {Gu} means the number "nine".

[silence]

This is the first one and I'll... I'll read you what he says. {lama [unclear]} How do
you get to this? It's by studying with your teacher what to meditate on. So, how
do you even get to the first state? It comes by hearing what you should be
meditating on. Getting your object from your teacher, from your lama.

[student: The object of your meditation, you mean?]

Yeah. He... he teaches you some object that you should be meditating on. We're
going to meditate on something called {yon ten shir gyurma}. And that will be
the next few classes.

[student: I'm sorry. {Yon ten shir gyurma} and what?]

Learning from your lama what to stud... what to meditate on. We haven't
reached that yet. What object to take for your meditation. That's what gets you
to the first state. And the first state's name is? It's difficult. Putting the mind on
the object. {Sem jok pa} means "putting the mind on the object".

[student: On the?]

On the object of meditation. Say you're... say you're going to meditate on the
image of a Buddha, which is supposed to be the best object to start out... start
with. You... you hear from... your lama says, "Okay, now go and sit and I want
you to meditate on a buddha". And when you sit down and put your mind on
that buddha you have reached already the first level.

[student: Neat.]

That's like a white belt in karate. You know you buy the costume, they give you
one [laughs]. [laughter]

[student: You mentioned two different things. You mentioned learning about
an... an object, a proper object of meditation from your lama...]

Yeah.

[student: And then putting your mind on it.]

This is the result.

This is the result.
[student: So...]

What is the... what is the force that boots you up to the first level? Just getting
the instructions from your lama. "This is what you should meditate on". Then
that boots you up to the first level.

[student: So it's learning about and receiving directions [Yeah.] to meditate?]

What... what object to take.

[student: So, receiving an object from your lama to meditate [Yeah.] on [Yeah.]
instructions about that...]

Already that gets you up to the first... then you go and sit down and you put
your mind on the object and I'll describe what it's like. He says, "{me pa la shok
sem shok sem ne}". You're just able to put your mind on the object now... now
and then [laughs]. You know you sit there for fifteen minutes and you know
okay for that long you kept it. Then you were mostly wandering. Then again, a
couple of seconds you're on the object. [unclear] like that. That's called, "putting
your mind on the object". He says, "At this point you still don't have the ability
to have any continuity in the meditation. There is no stream. It's just single
points where you're able to put your mind on the object.

[student: This isn't this state?]

[unclear] Very... Obviously first state, lowest state

[student: So this parallels forgetting the instruction. The first..]

Well, that would be... no, well yeah, you... you'd supposedly you... you over...
overcome laziness by now. At least you've sat down right?

[student: Yeah. Cuz you've put your mind on it but...]

Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't relate them, but he does relate them to the different
{ching guh} and forgetting and we'll see that. In other words at the end of the
nine, I think we'll be able to split 'em into the problems. So at this time... at this
point it's characterized by not having the ability to have any continuity. It's just
single moments of concentration on the object.
[student: I'm... I have a little clarification problem here. Is... is {sem jok pa}
putting the mind on the objects or learning from your lama what to put your
mind on?]

This is... this is the first state and it is putting your mind on the object in
meditation. How do you get to this state? You... you go to a sch... some lama
and you say, "What should I meditate on?" and he says, "Meditate on the
Buddha". So medit... learning what to meditate on is what boots you up to this
state. This is the result of... of your lama telling you what to meditate on. Just
like that.

[student: Your lama's telling you and then you sitting to do it? [Yeah.] Right?
[Right.] If he told you [Yeah, of course.] and you didn't do it for two weeks [Of
course.] yet, you still haven't...]

Yeah. But what the energy that gets you to this point is knowing what to
meditate on [laughs]. Okay. Having

[student: So if you don't go to a lama you'll never know]

To get an object of meditation...

[student: ...or can you pick one yourself.]

You can do anything yourself. It's discouraged in Buddhism. It's considered
very dangerous.

[student: What? Even if it's the Buddha? I thought that was the one safe one.]

What that he can choose his own [unclear]

[student: No, that if you choose the figure of the Buddha that that's the one safe
one.]

No, what I'm saying in in in Buddhist practice it's very much discouraged to do
anything without learning about it from a la... in oral tradition. You can't pick up
a book.... many, many scriptures say you can't pick up this book and read it
thoroughly and understand everything and go practice it. It won't work. You
need some kind of oral... they call it oral blessing like that the sound of the words
from your teacher's been passed on through... has some kind of effect. Can't just
learn it from a book. So that's {sem jok pa}. Even if the book says the same
thing that he says [laughs]. All right...

[student: What is {sem jok pa}?]

Putting your mind on the object. {Sem} means "mind". {Jok pa} means "putting
it on the object". Object is not mentioned. He says something interesting here.
He says, "By the way when you reach this point you'll think that you're worst
than you were before" [laughter]. And he says he.. he thinks...he... you will think
that your mind is more wild than it was before you started meditating and you
know the answer to that. What do you think?

[student: You're just noticing.]

You're just starting to notice it [laughter]. He..he makes a point here. He says,
"Don't be discouraged". He says, "You...you're just noticing what was going on all
the time" [laughs]. So he says, "Don't...don't think that you're getting worst.
You're just starting to notice what you're mind is like". What do you think comes
next?

[student: [unclear]]

Yeah.

[silence]

{Gyun du jok pa}. {Jok pa} means again "putting your mind on the object".
{Gyun du} means "in a stream". In a stream. In some kind of continuity.

[student: Can you repeat that?]

Yeah. {Gyun du} means "in a stream". So now for the first time you have more
than just [snaps fingers] [snaps fingers] instants of focusing. You... you're able to
keep your mind on the object for at least a few seconds [laughs] in a row. He
says, "For example, if you were able to keep your mind on the object for the
time and not los... and not be distracted for the time it takes you to do one
rosary full of {om mani padme hums}. That's actually pretty long [laughs]. But
you know 108 beats if you go {om mani padme hum}, {om mani padme hum},
{om mani padme hum}, {om mani padme hum}, {om mani padme hum}, {om
mani padme hum}, if you can keep your mind on the object for that long you've
reached this state. So this is useful. You get some kind of...

[student: Doesn't keeping your mind on the object even if the object hasn't got
terrific clarity or any of...]

Right.

[student: ...those other things. Just keeping in mind [unclear]]

Just not losing the object.

[student: For a short period of time?]

Well, he says, "If you can keep it as long as... as it... it takes to recite {om mani
padme hum} one whole rosary full.

[student: [unclear]]

[student: Four or five minutes maybe?]

That's pretty long actually I think [laughs].

[student: [unclear] four or five minutes.]

[student: [unclear]]

[student: Oh, no. It doesn't take five minutes [unclear]]

[student: Four minutes. Three, four minutes.]

If you say it like you know like Tibetans [fast] {om mani padme hum},{om mani
padme hum},{om mani padme hum}, [laughter]... anyway you're supposed to
say it slower and more clearly.

[student: Right [unclear]]

[unclear]

[student: {Jok pa} is putting it.. putting the mind?]
To set the mind on the object.

[student: So how would you... how would we call this one?]

Aw, I was afraid you'd ask me that.

[student: Sorry.]

Now I have to compete with all these other translations. I... I didn't think about
it. Putting the mind on the object and putting the mind on the object in a stream.
Or in a... whatever you want to say.

[student: Continuim.]

In a continuim?

[student: Instead of two points.]

Yeah. Instead of [snaps fingers twice] like that. [unclear]

[student: Sparks.]

[student: Oh, so it's not a continuous stream. It's just making...]

It is continuous for the length of that. What I'm saying is...

[student: So beyond that one... one point. A series of connected points.]

Yeah. A series of connected points. That's all it is.

[student: Now at this stage you're not... you're not con... I mean you're not
concentrating on the object for... you gave an example the... of the rosary as a
good example of concentration, but you would not be at this stage would you?]

Well I mentioned the rosary last week as a different example. That was the
difference between having clarity and fixation as holding the rosary but loosely
and then having fixation and clarity with intensity is where you've got it firmly in
your hand. So that was the diff... it was a bad question but, which all of you
noticed, it said fixation, clarity, and clarity with intensity and it should have said
fixation and clarity comma and clarity with intensity so... Fixation and clarity
meant holding the cup or holding the rosary with your hand but little bit loosely,
like it could tip over, and then having intensity means you have a firm grip on it.
And that was the example, but I... I didn't say the question very clearly. Okay.
So he gets... he says at this point, remembering the last point he said, you get the
impression, he talks about {gyun} you get the impression that you're starting to
get worst, but actually you're just noticing what was always happening. He says
at this point you get the impression that distractions are resurging. You see, cuz
you... you're able to keep them away for awhile, but then... then what upsets
you is that they come back with such force. A... you know they... you're able to
keep your mind on the object for awhile and then you get this rush of... of
distraction. So he says, "If you want to know what it feels like when you've
reached this state it feels like that". You keep your mind on the object for maybe
a minute and... and then you get this impression of resurgence of the... of all the
thoughts booming back into your mind. So he says that the first one you get
this impression that you... you're worst than you were before [laughs]. That's
cuz you're starting to notice it. This one what you get set... upset by are the
impressions you get as you're practicing is that they're just coming back with a
vengence because you've kept them down for awhile, so you have this
impression. It's quiet for awhile, so it sounds louder when they come back. And
that's the... that's the sort of impression you get while you're doing this point.
He says at these first two stages {jing -pa} and {je-pa} are many which is dullness
and getting excited. Those two diseases are frequent and the the fixation is
infrequent. And he says the periods of distraction are longer than what?

[student: concentration]

Periods of fixation [laughs] okay. Periods on which your mind is off the object
are longer than the periods on which your mind is on the object. So thats the
gap between the times that you're able to keep your mind on the object are
longer timewise than the than the periods when your mind is on the object. At
least that's the whole quality of these first two states. Times your mind has
wandered are longer than the times your mind is on the subject on the object.

[student: What about intense boredom? Is that wandering?]

[laughs]

[student: No I'm serious.]
He doesn't mention it.

[student: I've never seen it mentioned and yet]

You know boredom is an American you know boredom is a problem that you
don't see mentioned in scripture much because I don't think agricultural society,
or societies up til modern times had enough time to be bored the way we are.
You know, we have so much leisure, I mean compared to people in the past and
we live longer,

[student: No. I mean boredom when you're concentrating on an object and
you've got relative clarity and relative stability and you're bored.]

I wouldn't say you have

[student: What is it? Is it dullness?]

clarity then. That's probably dullness. Yeah. I would say so. You know, no, you
know what I'd say that is is a kind of laziness. A kind of laziness.

[student: Which would be a kind of dullness]

No.

[student: Do you mean to say that you've mastered it, so that you've got this
concentration so perfectly that you're tired of looking at it that object.]

[student: No no no no. Just that it's not it's not]

It's not it's not stimulating. Then I'd say it's something else. Then I'd say you
don't understand the quality of the object. You see, if you're thinking about a big
raise at work or you're thinking about a very interesting movie it's cuz you see
nice something attractive in the thing and it's it's a matter that we're not good
enough to realize how sexy it is to look at a Buddha for a long time, you know,
how stimulating and exciting it would be to see one for a long time. And if you
have that feeling, I would say try to change the object to someone you really
have intense faith in, you know. If you don't get off on on focusing on a Buddha.
Frankly I don't. I always use my lama or Dalai Lama or something like that and
then I get I'm so I get some kind of emotion about it that keeps me interested.
So I I understand that. It's hard to relate to the Buddha's image, it's a very holy
image, and he really does look like that and and when you see him you'll know
that and then you'll think that's the nicest one. But but it's just foreign to us.
That's why they say that the Buddha appears as a Dalai Lama in this world
because he's more because you're more attracted to him right now, in our
present condition. Yeah.

[student: Well it seems to me though, if you truly understood the benefits of
concentrating on an object like that, then it couldn't be boring. I mean how could
you really truly grasp the benefits of it and be bored at the same time.]

I guess not but the fact is that we do, right? And it's probably because we don't
grasp the benefits. So I'd say that's why I said I thought you might want to call it
you might want to call that state laziness really, you know, cuz it's antidote
would be seeing the good qualities of that Buddha. You see what I mean?

[student: Well, laziness because somebody [It is a kind of] they talk about
laziness as a as a form of being attracted to this obj to, in the context of
meditation or Dharma, undesirable unvirtue being attracted to unvirtue. It's
stated that way in some of the texts.]

I haven't seen it. But I've seen [unclear]

[student: It's kind of interesting because in a way it makes sense.]

No, laziness is kind of not wanting to do it. Because of those four antidotes are
pretty clear.

[student: But I see I think this is taking it one step further and saying why is it
you don't want to do it? and it's because you're thinking you want pancakes for
breakfast or you would like rather think about something different or you'd
rather do something different.]

I guess you could say that.

[student: Well, you don't unde you'd think]

[laughs], But it's not

[student: that pancakes are better than the benefits of concentrating.]
Yeah, actually we do. [laughter] {Lente jokpa.} {Jokpa} means what?

[student: Putting your mind]

Put your mind on the object. {Lente} means, you've seen it in the books, "patch-
like". This is a {lemba}. This is a patch, this is to patch something. Patch, like a
patch on a tire, more like that.

[student: Putting your mind on a patch.]

He says when you get a hole in your clothes, you put a patch on it and the thing
you're patching is what?

[student: The holes?]

The clothes. No, the thing the thing that needs patching is the clothes.

[student: Clothes?]

The cloth, the shirt. Okay. He's trying to make a parallel. This is called patch-
like fixation, patch-like, putting your mind on the object because what is what is
the thing being patched? He says it's the continuity. You see. And I I've always
had, you know, until I studied it better, I I I I always had it wrong. So what
you're patching is you've got some continuity and then it breaks and then you've
got more continuity. So what, in effect, you're doing is, at this point, your mind
wanders and you catch yourself and by picking it up again, in a sense, you're
putting a patch on that hole. That's the way he explains it, you're not, I used to
think it meant patch-like in the sense that it went on for awhile and then you had
a patch, not like that. There's a gap there's there's a, what do you call it?, an
interruption and by catching yourself and starting again, in a sense, you're
patching up that hole.

[student: So your overall translation will be?]

Patch-like. Putting your mind on the object or, you know, that won't make in a
book, but..

[student: Patch patch-like continuity?]

Well, if this word means putting your mind on the object. I didn't want to use
fixation because we used it for that other thing and this means patch, in patches
patching.

[student: Patching continuity.]

[student: This is a lot like the correction of taking an action.]

Well, here's what he says..."The distinction that sets this apart from the two
before is the length of the wandering. See, as you see here, it's really just gaps
that you're filling in.

[student: You're patching the stream essentially.]

Yeah. Yeah, yes so the gaps here, remember the gaps here were, this was like
this, I guess we should draw it, right?

[student: [unclear] Stretching the dots into a section]

And this is [unclear]

[student: [unclear]

[student: Yeah [unclear] Visual]

This means e d e e [laughter].

[student: Does that just mean a longer stream?]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, when you say he's not defining it, he's not comparing it
to the other two by a longer stream, he's defining it by a shorter gap.

[student: Can you just repeat what you just said about what makes it different
from the other two?]

He says what distinquishes the two is this

{??? missing here}

He says that the length of the wandering, the length of the gap here is shorter.
[Student: Wait a minute.]

This is number three. This is periods of good meditation. These are periods of
distraction.

[Student: You’re less and less distracted.]

Yeah, you’re less… the length of the distracted period, the length of the gap is
longer, is shorter, sorry.

[Student: The length of the gap that you are patching is shorter, plus your
patching]



[Student: Number two]

Plus your patching, I don’t know, yeah, you could say that. But I’d say when
you’re patching… patching means to start up again. You can’t go back in time
and fill up that hole. Patching means you started again.

[Student: But you’re doing that in the other two also.]

But its so long. You don’t patch, y’know, a shoelace…

[Student: You don’t put a bandaid on a [unclear]… a hole in the road…]

He says at this point you have gained a pretty powerful [jenpa], a recollection.
Remembering to come back to your object. Recall. You can guess what’s going
to happen next.

[Student: Is that first letter a [la] under the [unclear]?]

This one? [La] [snap, snap]



[Student: How do you spell [jenpa]?]

[jenpa]? I’ll spell for you.
[laughter]
Oh, you mean…
This is memory, which at the…. You don’t have to write that down. But its…
This is the point at which memory is getting quite strong.

[Student: Michael, at that level number three, are you saying that the gaps, the
breaks in concentration are shorter?]

Yeah. Then in the first two cases.

[Student: Than the concentration…]

Ah, yeah. He’s probably gonna say that. He hasn’t said that yet. And I’ll tell you
why after the next one. Number four.
[Silence]



[Student: Does that look like a [unclear] there?]

Ah now what you want, you can … I didn’t think much about how to translate
that but you can talk about this thing all day and not decide. These are Sanskrit
translations. (Nyewa] means closely . The mind is closely on the object, okay.
It’s a Sanskrit prefix that doesn’t mean closely very often, ok, but people try to
call it closely. And it doesn’t work all the time. Close recollection, for example, it
doesn’t have anything to do with it. Ah, at least in English, so he says, at this
point your recollection has gotten extremely strong, so, and as a result of that it
is impossible from this point on to lose the object completely.

[Student: What do you mean completely?]

You will never just lose the object.

[Student: You can just…]

You can wander around it and wander away from it temporarily, you can come
back to it.

[Student: So you lose clarity, you lose intensity, but you’ll still have…]

You can lose clarity and … you lose fixation, up to this point
[Student: At that point you don’t lose fixation]

You can’t. Yeah, yeah. You will never lose the object. Yeah?

[Student: How did you translate – keeping closely on the object?]

Ah, yeah, staying closely on the object, something like that, putting your mind
closely on the object that’s the, but you know what it is now.

[Student: What is it?]

Its where, because of what …
Recollection has reached a very strong point, stronger than the last point, ah, its
impossible, from this point on to have a gap where you lose the object
completely.

[Student: [mmmm]]

He says, and therefore it really distinguishes itself from the other three… This is
a big difference from the other three.
No gaps.
[laughter]

The line is different, right? The line looks quite different. So he says, but, but, two
other things are going on quite, quite heavily here. What are they?

[Student: Subtle…]



[Student: Dullness, agitation]

Dullness, obvious dullness and obvious agitation, whatever you want to call it,
      ok.

[Student: Why is that?]

You haven’t got yet to the… you just reached the third [unclear]. Ok. What
were we up to? Up to now we were still using recollection which is the antidote
to which problem…
[Student: Remembering.]



[Student: Not losing ]

Not losing the object, ok? So we, the first four of the mental states are all
contained in the second problem that’s going on…you’re losing the object
completely. Maybe for shorter periods or longer periods but you’re losing the
object completely. When you get to the fourth one, you’re no longer losing the
object completely, but now you’ve reached the third problem which is …

[Student: Dullness]

Dullness or agitation. With the object still sitting there in front of your mind, so
now you’re no longer struggling to keep the object in your mind, you’re
struggling to keep the quality of your meditation up.

[Student: Is it strong dullness and strong agitation or is it just…?]

Obvious. He says heavy.
[laughter]

Alright, obvious dullness and obvious agitation are going on at the fourth point
but what’s brought you to the fourth point is very strong [unclear]?

[Student: Recall]

Recall! You’re ability to recall the object and bring it back into your mind has
now reached a very fine point and he says – the lama, remember these are
lectures being given in 1921, the lama mentioned that at this point, your ability to
recall the object is like a grownup person, its an adult. Its .. what do you call it in
English?

[Student: Grownup.]



[Student: Mature.]



[Student: Fully-grown.]
Its fully, its fully grown, its full grown. You’re ability to recall the object now is
full-grown.

[Student: Its complete.]

Yeah…mature…he says, by the way, he uses both words as a what do you call
     it?

[Student: A synonym]

…what do you call it? John , the president, is going today to… an appositive. Its
where you put two words net to each other and they mean the same thing.
[Tenba], recalling the object, and he uses that. He used [unclear] complete. And
he was [unclear] complete. And he uses adult next to it and it’s a word that only
means an adult person, it doesn’t ever mean anything else. So he does mean,
full-blown and full-grown. Okay? Alright, number five. [Dulwa] is a very
important word in Buddhism…[dog barking, laughter] in Sanskrit is [dam,
damaya] and it means to tame something.
[laughter]

Ah, you went to the bathroom?

[Student: Oh, no, she tried to]

Downstairs… the active bathroom is downstairs. So [dulwa] means to tame
something or to bring something under control. Alright. It’s the… In Sanskrit is
[dam] and the negative is [adam] and so the word for diamond cannot be
overcome by anything. A diamond is the hardest thing in the universe. It can’t
be scratched by any object in the earth. So its adamas, and that came into Greek
as adamas. And the word adamant comes from that and by the time it came to
English, the A had gotten lost and it became diamond…. Anyway…

[Student: Ahhh.]

Okay, so [dulwa jepa] means to bring it under control. [jepa] means to do it. The
word for vinaya also comes from this root. The monks vows are called, really,
how to control yourself. [dulwa jepa]. He says, at the fourth stage, the tendency
is for people to bring their mind inside too forcefully.
[Student: The fourth or the fifth stage?]

At the fourth stage. The tendency is for people to bring their minds in… inside
too forcefully and therefore, subtle dullness becomes a great danger.

[Student: What do you mean bring the mind in?]

Your guess is as good as mine [laughter] I was afraid you would ask me that!
You guys really do this all the time… It says [unclear]. Your withdrawing of the
mind into yourself is too strong. Too introspective? Too focused inwards?
Too…? Focused inside is too much…with excessive strength so that you get
subtle dullness, trying.

[Student: Subtle or trying too hard?]

Subtle dullness.

[Student: Is it like trying too hard?]

I think it may be something we have to try to find out. I…I would say, normally
that these words in Tibetan mean, they could also describe what happens during
sleep, as you go to sleep the mind is brought into the inside. Okay. So its too
excessive. It’s like going into, its like bringing it in so far it gets dull, it gets dull.
Bringing the mind in away from the sense objects, so, with such strength that
you lose your strength, you become dull.

[Student: Wouldn’t sleeping be a good analogy?]



[Student: Heading towards unconsciousness?]

I think so, yes, something like that. Sleep. These same words are used for what
happens to your mind during sleep, so I’m saying, maybe he’s trying to say that.
In fact, at higher levels of concentration the act of sleeping becomes the act of
meditation. And your sleep turns into concentration.

[Student: Wow…]

Ah, and that’s one of the benefits of shamatha.
[Student: Couldn’t this be like hypnosis?]

I don’t think so, or maybe in that you could become kind of dull. Yeah, I
imagine, I’ve never been hypnotized.

[Student: What is jepa?]

Which one?

[Student: [Jepa].]

[Jepa] means to do it, to control the mind, to bring it under control.

[Student: And then [dulwa] means to tame…]

Yeah, so to do the taming. In Tibetan sometimes you have top have a verbalizer.
In English, you say, you don’t say controlling sometimes, you say bring it under
control, its like that. It’s the bring, in bringing it under control. He says at this
point you need powerful, you tell me. What problem have we reached?

[Student: Watchfulness]

Yeah, you need watchfulness, you need [sheshin]. Now we’re definitely into
third problem, right? [jing ga] has occurred….dullness, agitation has occurred…
and the, and what you need at this point is powerful watchfulness.

[Student: So what is this level called?]

Bringing it under control, bringing the mind under control. You can assume the
word mind in all of these things, he doesn’t repeat it, but its always there. He
says watchfulness is the spy that you send out ahead of you. And then, when
you catch yourself, uplift your mind. So he’s got now those two points in one
point, doesn’t he? He’s saying catch yourself and then bring your mind up
somehow.

[Student: Don’t you need watchfulness in all those previous levels too?]

You really do.

[Student: So… so why do…]
If you were in a debate ground, y’know, they’d say, “Is watchfulness the third,
the antidote to the third problem?” And if you were a smart debater you would
say no. And then they’ll try to attack you and say “What do you mean?
Watchfulness is number three!” And you’d say, “Oh you mean number three in
the eighth? Of course it is!” So then in Tibetan you’d have to say watchfulness
which is the number three of the eighth is (clap) is the antidote for number three.
I’m sorry, number five of the eighth. You see you have to use that qualifier.
There’s lots of watchfulnesses.

[Student:     So how is this really distinct than the other steps since all of the
steps…]

He is differentiating, I think its, don’t forget you’re on the object, so its not the
act of recalling the object, its bringing your mind back to the object, catching
your mind wandering from the object.

[Student: Prior, it was catching your mind wandering from the object, now its
catching your mind not being clear, not being intense.]

Yeah, yeah. Catching your mind on the object, but some problem of the quality
of your meditation. The other one was just catching yourself not being on the
object at all as well, bringing you mind back.

[Student: So maybe you have to be more aware because it’s a subtler catch. You
know, its not as easy to catch, it’s a subtler type of problem.]

Yeah, yeah.

[Student: These are, all the connections are functioning all along anyway, but, I
mean, to be aware enough to start to apply the patch means that you’re…]

That’s true..

[Student: You’re making the correction, right?]

Cause he does say here, your watchfulness reaches a mature level, a strong
level…

[Student: And then you’re taking action to apply the patch.]
Implying that it was there before… also that some kind of watchfulness was
there before. We have this thing in the Perfections when we debate, [snap]
{Madhyamika] there are six Perfections. The [Madhyamika] [unclear] has ten
chapters relating to the Ten Perfections, and y’know, you debate you never
[unclear] before that, how are you going to get to that? Yeah, he had it but this
is the stage at which it turns on. You know, you can say that, its alright. So he
says that, and then he says, the difference between this and the previous two,
okay.

[Student: Previous meaning three and four?]

Yeah. Is whether or not the dullness and agitation are obvious.

[Student: What do you mean?]

You tell me.

[Student: You mean coarse, obvious, as in coarse?]

Yeah, no, gross. I like gross because [unclear] obvious. What differentiates five
from the last two is that a distinction whether the, ah, what did you have here,
by the way…what was your state of your dullness here?

[Student: Obvious]

Obvious. He’s saying now the difference between this one and this one , let’s say
your dullness is like, you know, “Nyyngggrrrgghh”” [laughter] Here your
dullness is like, y’know, its tricky, it looks like meditation, so he’s implying that,
if you drew it, what would be the difference between this one and this one?
Here the dullness is not gross. He doesn’t say its subtle, but he says there’s a
difference in whether the dullness is obvious or not. Yeah.

[Student: When you say the watchfulness is completely mature at this point, you
mean…]

He doesn’t say its mature in this case, he says powerful.

[Student: So its not like you always catch it every time…]
It doesn’t seem to imply that, no, it just says powerful. We’ll do one more than
       we’ll take a break.

[Student: What is the difference? [unclear]]

What is the difference between five, and really, four and three, he says, its in the
degree in which the dullness or the wandering is obvious. Or is gross. Which
implies that its fairly subtle by this time.

[Student: Are you comparing, are you drawing the straight line to show the
difference between four and five? Or is it because you have both.
Both of them are straight lines because…

[Student: Recall.]

…there were no gaps. There are no gaps. You did not lose the object, right? You
don’t lose the object anymore. So that just represents whether or not there are
gaps.

[Student: Oh okay.]

And this other little line represents whether or not you have obvious dullness or
obvious agitation.

[Student: Ahhh.]

And in this case, its just gross. Its obvious and in this case its getting more tricky..

[Student: And subtle means…]



[Student: Can we call it subtle?]

He doesn’t say that. He hesitates to say it. He says, in the other two cases, you
have a difference in the obviousness.

[Student: Moving in that direction]

He seems to imply that its subtle by now, but he doesn’t say that.
[Student: So in the subtle you’re only lacking intensity. Is that true?]

Right.

[Student: And you have clarity…]

Ah, no, I’m sorry, you have clarity and intensity and – I’m sorry, clarity and
fixation, but right, no intensity.

[Student: Lacking intensity.]



[Student: Michael, wouldn’t the [unclear] have to do with the quality of
watchfulness, more than the quality of the dullness or the agitation?]

You could say that.

[Student: What’s the use of being able to get to the level where the dullness is
only subtle? You need to have developed your watchfulness quite well, because]

Yeah.

[Student: You’d be catching the obvious one [unclear]]

You need to say if watchfulness stayed constant the first one would be obvious
to it. And the second one would not be so obvious to it. What you want to say is
that agitation or dullness is the same… the situation gets better or not.

[Student: But too much watchfulness is a distraction.]

Yeah, we said that. Yeah, it becomes a distraction to keep checking. So you
check from time to time.

[Student: [ok.]

Let’s do one more.
[Silence]

What was the solution for [tchingwa]. What was the solution for dullness
This is dullness, right? You have obvious dullness here and…
[Student: Tightening up?]

Yeah, and what was the, if it got worse, what were you supposed to do?

[Student: Try to uplift your mind]

Uplift you mind. Uplift yourself. Like how… think of something good, like hey!
I’m lucky to be alive, I’m one out of a million people even trying to do this
meditation. The rest of the people are going like sheep to the slaughter. Its.. the
books say it. All the scriptures say it. The mass of humanity is lemmings jumping
off a cliff.

[Student: [unclear]

[laughter]

You know at least I got the brains to be trying. Y’know. I got the good luck, I
got the good fortune to be here.
[laughter]



[Student: It could’ve been the other way…]

And its hard, but at least I’m on the right track, I’m in the right ballpark, okay,
I’m proud of myself, happy. He says what happens with the six? What do you
guess happens with the six? Here you’ve got your mind up. You tried to use
something to bring your mind up.

[Student: You’re way up now.]

Yeah, Yeah, you went up too high, okay It says that you overdo it. And that’s
like a pendulum. Good meditation is like a pendulum, and driving too. If you
drive too far to the left you’ve got to do a big right. And so he says, at this point,
the uplifting of your mind at number five got too far, went too far and you got
agitation.

[Student: I thought five was to tame it, the taming, to do the taming]

Don’t be too distracted by the words of the names, and you’ll learn this in
Buddhism. It means to bring it under control. But what does that mean? Just to
bring your obvious dullness under controls

[Student: So, this only applies to dullness and agitation?]

Now he’s tending that way. But now you’ll see. One of them is going to drop
out, another one will come back.

[Student: No, that’s a good point. I mean, number four is, apparently dullness is
what you encounter as a problem first.]

He says at number four you have both. He said you have both.

[Student: And also number five?]

What he’s saying here, he calls this [unclear]. What does [unclear] mean?

[Student: Subtle]

Subtle. So he’s… now you’ve got a subtle… what?

[Student: Agitation]

Agitation. Which we didn’t talk about before.

[Student: No]

Tim came in early. And we were looking in the computer to find, you know, I
said, I haven’t seen this word before – subtle agitation. And we checked at the
computer, and its not there. This is the only description of it. That’s interesting.
Its kind of nice. Ah, you get the subtle agitation by talking too much action to cut
off…

[Student: Subtle dullness]

Subtle dullness.

[Student: That’s the only place it ever comes form?]

It’s the only place we could find it.
[Student: What is…]

And now I can search 3,000 pages in 30 seconds now, That’s very useful. I don’t
think you’ll find it anywhere. So this is where you get subtle agitation

[Student: So number five is only dullness?]

Yeah, I guess, let’s put agitation above, how’s that? Here, you’ve got both.
You’re the guinea pigs. You’re the first class that I do this with actually

[Student: Well, that’s good.]



[Student: What does [shiwa] mean?]

Oh, I’m sorry. Good point. [shiwa] means peace P-E-A. [unclear] means to make.
To make it peaceful. Make it calm, make the mind calm.

[Student: And so what would you call it?]

Ah, making the mind calm, calming the mind? But you see, it doesn’t, it has a
specific technical meaning; you see it doesn’t just mean, hey, you’re calm after
that. They’re looking for words to describe states that have no words. When
they get into [Abhidharma], in the third chapter, when they try to describe sub-
atomic particles, which they describe down to about twenty, twenty….

[end of cassette side A]

[beginning of side B]



But you still have to use effort towards eliminating subtle dullness and subtle
agitation completely.

[Student: So, could you…]

What it means, basically, at this point it is difficult for plain old dullness and
agitation to occur. But you’ve still got to, at this point you’re still trying to make
some active effort to eliminate them completely. He says what distinguishes this
one, or I should say [unclear], from the ones before it are that whether or not
you have to, the word in Tibetan is a little tricky, whether or not you have to
have much fear that subtle forms of dullness are going to occur or not…
whether or not you have to watch very, very carefully anymore.

[Student: [unclear] [laughter]]

[unclear] means whether or not you have to worry about it very much, how’s
       that?

[Student: [unclear]]

And you’re going to get subtle dullness or agitation.

[Student: So you don’t have to worry about it?]

You don’t. He’s implying that. You still have to be concerned whether they are
going to occur or not, but you don’t have to be very concerned about it.

[Student: Its like they could happen.]

Its like they could happen but you don’t have to go crazy watching out for them.
At this point you’re actually trying to clean up the last survivors of [unclear].
Mop up operation? [laughter]. He says, Even though there’s no great danger of
the subtle forms of dullness and agitation occurring at this point, it’d still be
necessary for you to take, to make some efforts to wipe them out completely.
[Silence]



[Student: So you want to do a drawing of this number seven?]

I wouldn’t take a shot at it.
[laughter]

You could do it like this maybe…

[Student: Continue in a circle…]

[unclear] You know, they’re getting wimpy now and you’re getting stronger.
[Student: Or maybe they’re getting further apart now and they…]

Yeah, like that. They’re spotty now. And he says its no longer that you’re
attacking them, they’re attacking you, that you’re attacking them. Its just like
that. They’re like the last remnants of the German army or something. Now
you’re going after them.

[Student: Ahhh.]



[Student: So the definition is to be totally calm but it also refers to the dullness?]

Don’t be, don’t much think about the names. The names are not descriptive of
this state, as I said before.

[Student: So it pertains to both dullness and agitation?]

Yeah, he mentions that, it is subtle dullness and subtle agitation. And you’re just
going in and wiping out the last survivors. But you’ve got to make some effort
to do that. What does that imply the next one is going to be?

[Student: No more [unclear]

Something like that. Let’s see, I don’t know…

[Student: Almost none]

He’s got a note here. He says, from the third stage, from the seventh stage
[unclear], 3,4,5,6,7, ah, for the most part you are in the meditation, but you are
being interrupted by dullness and agitation. So there, for the most part you’re
meditation is pretty good but you are still being bothered by dullness and
agitation, in those 5 stages.

[Student: True, true, true]

In the three through seven, 3,4,5,6,7

[Student: One and two, you’re not meditating at all.]

Yeah, yeah. That’s the implication is that in one and two you’re wandering was
more than the meditation. Now you’ve got pretty good meditation, but its being
interrupted by dullness and agitation. Yeah?

[Student: The difference between [shiwa] and [dolwa]?]

You can’t, don’t get hung up on the names, one means control, one means to put
them to rest, to make your mind calm [shiwa] means peace. Peace. Its related to
the word [unclear] to [unclear]. Sometimes [unclear] means to stop something,
put it to rest. Okay, number eight.
[Silence]



[Student: I wonder what its going to [unclear]]

Hah! Brief descriptions of all nine, and the names…

[Student: [unclear]]

[laughter]

Nah. You can put that. See what happens.
[laughter]



[Student: As long as we spell it that way, its okay.]



[Student: Its agitation.]

[unclear] agitation?

[Student: [unclear]]

[unclear for a while]

Okay, he says, what does [unclear] mean. [unclear] is the definition of [unclear].
Somebody, what is that [unclear]? [unclear]

[Unclear]
[Student: Concentration]

Single pointed mind. One pointedness. Single mindedness. I like the word single
mindedness. Its really what it is. Ah, so [unclear] means one point. [unclear]
means one-pointedly. [unclear] means, ah, bring the mind to onepointedness.
Reaching one-pointedness, how’s that? He says, at this point, at the beginning of
your meditation, as your meditation period starts, you make a slight effort to
bring your mind to the object. Okay, and then, during the whole meditation
session, what?

[Student: [unclear]]



[Student: Cruise]

There’s no [unclear]. You don’t get dullness or agitation. But you have to apply
some effort before you start. Before you start you have to check your mind,
clear you mind, balance it, and then it just cruises for the whole meditation.

[Student: Wow]

He says, for example, you can compare these last few stages, he doesn’t say
which ones to having an enemy who is very powerful then on to having an
enemy who has gotten weaker onto having an enemy who is totally, what do
you call it,

[Student: The enemy, defanged, impotent]

Impotent. Defanged is good. Yeah. Now that the enemy starts out as a serious
enemy, he’s got some guns and then later you’ve taken most of his guns away
and at the end he’s just standing there, defenseless.

[Student: So would you say it’s the effortless after you place it on the object?]

Well, that’s going to come later. Because he says, yeah, after, because you’re
going to need some effort to kick off.

[Student: So after the initial effort, no effort.]
Yeah, yeah, so you can imagine what the ninth one is going to be, right?

[Student: No effort at all]

By the way, he says, from the eighth level on up, you don’t need to turn on your
[unclear] anymore. You don’t need to use, actively, watchfulness anymore.
[Various Students: [unclear]

[Silence]



[Student: [unclear] What’s the difference?]

[unclear] means to do it, and [unclear] means to set the mind on the object. But
again, I don’t, I mean, you really should have the characteristics of each level and
not be concerned about the names. I can imagine someone getting a list of the
names and struggling with each piece and then after that they would try to be
calm and trying after that to be… you know

[Student: Totally]

Totally. Yeah, its frustrating if you want to see a list like that, by the way, if you
try to read a sutra, that’s all you get. And that’s why we don’t read sutras. I
mean, in monasteries they don’t read the sutras. All these things are found in the
sutras but to get this list of nine, you’ll have to read a hundred sutras and there’ll
be this here, this that, this here and that that. The Buddha doesn’t give definitions
and distinctions and divisions and he just says, well, put your mind on these nine
steps…
[laughter]

And you have no idea of what they refer to. You have to dig through the whole
sutras. And that was what the great early commentators did, you know they…
the [Abhidarma], for example is basically a big organization of the sutras, so you
know, you can go and try to read the sutras if you want, but you’ll get a list of
nine things and there will be no description of what they are.

[Student: So is there a value in reading the sutras?]

I, its great, it’s the word of the Buddha, we memorize a lot of the sutras in the
monastery, just for the, to have them in your mind, it affects your mind. But for
study, much better to work with the Tibetan monastic textbooks. Because even
these nine will be mentioned in a verse in the [Tangyur], which is the Indian
commentaries, without any explanation of what they are, you know, like those
not, those five conditions for the place, they were [unclear] and what was the last
one? [unclear] Doesn’t give any clue as to what it is. [unclear] means easy to
find. What, he doesn’t say. [unclear] means good place. [unclear] means good
area. [unclear] means good friends, and everything you need. Now what do
those mean actually?

[Student: Sounds like a great party]

[laughter]

Easy to find means comfortable place – [unclear], that one is not too bad. Good
place means no wild animals or other fearful thing that endanger your… safe
place. Good place means safe place. Good area means healthy place, it doesn’t
make you sick. Good friends means people who share your Buddhist morality
and your Buddhist view of emptiness. And having all the things you need
means not having too many crowds during the day, and not too many noises at
night. So I mean, you know, you can go study the Tangyur if you want, but its
much better to work from the monastic textbooks. Then you can go back and
you know what they mean. Yeah?

[Student: Is this because when the Buddha taught things, everybody knew what
all these were?]

Yeah, they are code words that were taught to students, and then the lama
would reveal the oral tradition to him, you see. They teach you the code. The
Abhidharma goes [unclear]. The five in the eighth, connected to the three in the
four. Okay. Good luck.
[laughter]



[Student: Are we talking about a situation where the Buddha said okay, you can
only write down the code part of it and I’m going to give you orally…]

No. He didn’t say that.

[Student: the explanation…]
The early commentators restricted it to code, because then you could memorize
it easier.

[Student: So the Buddha actually explained all that but they couldn’t write the
whole thing out, so they…]

And when, when the tradition of passing… some of it was hidden also. Some of
it is meant to be hidden.

[Student: [unclear] at the end]

and its also like its to memorize. If you wrote it all out instead of memorizing
fifty pages for the [unclear] you’d have to, the full commentary is about a
thousand pages. [unclear] memorize.

[Student: so then you depend on the sutras and somebody who knows how to
decode them because the code book really wasn’t written or…]

Someone who had received the oral tradition. And for both purposes. Both for
security and later on they start to write things out more, so its helpful. Okay so
[unclear] is the verb form [unclear]. What’s [unclear]. [unclear] is like deep
meditation, a deep state of meditation, you can say deep state of meditation.
Some people try, struggle to translate [unclear]. [unclear] means even.
Remember in the posture. Your shoulders were [unclear]. When we discussed
the posture meditation. So [unclear] does mean even. People struggle to give it
some meaning. I don’t know if there is any meaning to it. It just means deep
meditation. You can say even meditation if you want. Okay. What are the
qualities of this? You tell me.

[Student: So you would say place mind in deep state of meditation.]

Ah, yeah, I would, you could say equilibrium, stability or something, y’know,
people struggle to get some meaning in there, but its, its artificial. You don’t
have to struggle. Its not the idea. When you learn Tibetan very well, you learn
that there are Sanskrit suffixes and prefixes, y’know. When I say conscience,
consciousness in English, and you’re a Tibetan translator who doesn’t know
English very well, you’ll say coming together knowingness, knowing, now, now
coming together knowing. And most of the translations are like that. They just
don’t know that consciousness is a single word meaning awareness. So a lot of
times you get a very bad translation because they don’t know that that whole
unit is one word and it doesn’t have to be, you don’t have to struggle to give
each syllable a meaning. Its not meant that way, even in English. All the Latin
suffixes and prefixes have, they don’t have separate meanings anymore.
Consciousness doesn’t mean a together knowingness anymore. It just means to
be aware. So you just have to learn it.

[Student: [unclear] is what you tell me?]



[Student: The mind is always in deep meditation.]

Naah, come on.

[Student: Easy to get there and not having to defend it?]

Define it by the last one.

[Student: Effortless.]

Effortless. Effortless entering into deep meditation.

[Student: Entering the [unclear]]

Yeah, and he says the ninth one is accomplished through [unclear] means doing
it over and over and over and over.

[Student: Doing what? The five steps?]

Practicing your morning meditation.
[laughter]

Or yeah, evening with some guys.

[Student: How common is it for someone to be able to achieve this?]

They say that if you try hard you’ll be able to do it in six months.

[Student: Can you do it?]
[Student: An hour a day even?]



[Student: [unclear]]

We’re not allowed to say.

[Student: [unclear]

If you never had, you could never see emptiness directly.

[Student: If you what?]

[laughter]

If you had never done it, you could never see emptiness directly.

[Student: So you have to have this to see [unclear]]

No, no, not at all. This comes way before.
[unclear]



[Student: At first I thought it said]

It doesn’t say anything. What he does say is that. He says this sets the stage.
What is [unclear]? [unclear] means this is very, very…

[Student: shh, shhh.]

I don’t know how to say it in English. [unclear] means fertile, this sets a fertile
field for the growth of shamatha.

[Student: What does?]



[Student: This ninth one]

This ninth one. Its almost to say it is shamatha. You see, he doesn’t clearly say it
is or isn’t. This is totally consistent with the state of shamatha, in the desire realm.
[Student: What’s the definition of shamatha again?]

Ah, I didn’t give you one. [laughter]. And I’ll pass on it. I’ll give you a good one
next week.
Its something like the mind focused – having reached the highest state of… you
know, there’s three qualities I’m gonna… but what I’ve told you, how I’ve
described it to you is, its most important function, you can achieve shamatha
without perceiving emptiness. But the most important function of shamatha is a
perfect meditation which is focused on emptiness. And shamatha and vipassana
always come, they don’t always come together but when you, the pair of those,
is the goal of meditation.
Does shamatha investigate the nature of the object? No. But, so it must be joined
with vipassana which is the wisdom which investigates the object. So its almost
like you’ve got the vice and the screwdriver or something. Shamatha is holding
the object so that vipassana which is the highest state of wisdom, can, can
analyze it. So, we, there are teachings on, I can take you through eight steps of
objects. We did them in our debating the other day. The basic distinction, and I
didn’t want to bring it up, but since you brought it up, the distinction between
shamatha and vipassana, which are very famous words and misused a lot. They
are both focused on the nature of objects, and on all objects. They both have
clarity and fixation and clarity with intensity. Okay? So the nature of how they
concentrate is the same. And the object towards which they focus is the same. So
what distinguishes them?

[Student: The object?]

No, the objects are the same. So what do you think distinguishes them? This is
missed, this is a point that is missed by a lot of people.

[Student: Is it intensity?]

No, the intensity is totally the same.

[Student: Could you say that again, please?]

The difference between these very famous two words which are thrown around
very lightly. shamatha and vipassana.

[Student: Can you spell that second word?]
I was afraid you’d ask me that.
[laughter]



[Student: Is it the same as vipaysana meditation?]

Yeah, yeah. It’s the same thing. I want to look it up for you. Let me look it up
okay, because I don’t want to misspell it for you. vipassana is the Pali or the
Sanskrit, I believe.

[Student: Vipayshana]



[Student: So that’s what people do when they go and do this breath meditation
for 10 days or so?
Yeah, but…

[Student: That’s point nine, vipassana.]

No, we’re just comparing, somebody asked, and [laughter] if I could compare
point nine to these two very high states of wisdom and meditation.

[Student: So point nine is …]

Which are very famous. I mean if you read the dharma books and all that stuff,
they mention them all the time, and rarely very clearly. Shamatha is focused
towards the totality of objects and their nature. Vipassana is focused toward the
totality of objects and their nature. Shamatha…

[Student: You said…]

The totality of objects and their nature. What we call [unclear] and [unclear]. You
weren’t supposed to be getting to this. Oh you want it or not. [laughter]
They’re both focused on the real nature of existence, at their highest level. They
both have perfect fixation, they both have perfect clarity, they both have clarity
with …

[Student: Intensity]
Intensity. So what makes them different?

[Student: One is ultimate reality]

No [unclear]



[Student: What about conventional?]



[Student: I would guess that from shamatha you could perceive emptiness
directly and from vipassana you could not.]

No. Vipassana is the [unclear]. It’s the higher form.

[Student: Did you say before,        shamatha holds the object and vipassana can
analyze the object.]

Well that’s the difference. That’s the difference, okay. Vipassana is examining the
nature of the object. Vipassana is analyzing but shamatha is not. Shamatha is just
grasping the object, keeping you on the object. So this is the point of meditation.
The point of meditation is… we didn’t talk about the content yet. Its just a
microscope. Its just a tool. To keep the mind on the object fiercely, then you have
to have another part of.. another mental function, which is wisdom, which
understands the nature of this object, which is analyzing the nature of the object
and coming up with the ultimate nature of the object. So they are different.

[Student: [unclear]]

And that’s the difference between the two, and then there’s a long mode, it’s a,
there’s eight different stages you have to discuss and you don’t have time to
[unclear]. But they are called [list in Tibetan…1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.] And you can
study it…
[laughter]



[Student: Are you going to talk about the changes that occur in the body with
the feelings and the sensations and all that is associated with this?]

He doesn’t talk much about it. Your body… there are sense sensations, you
should… those are gross distractions.

[Student: Well purification, negative energies and things like that]



[Student: [unclear]]

Ah, the first time lama mentions, in his commentary [unclear] in the section on
meditation, four stages of bliss. Its called [unclear], its in, its actually found in, in
different, its found in much higher teachings also. So he does talk about that.
Those are related to [unclear]. Agility. Agility means, that was the fourth
antidote to the first problem, that does mean some kind of bliss you get from
meditating, mental and physical.

[Student: Your body’s pliancy changes.]

You feel very light and you feel very supple. But, if you really want to know,
there are nine levels to causal meditation. [laughter]



[Student: In what meditation?]

Causal meditation in a division called [unclear], which you go up through
different levels and basically what it is, is where each time you get a higher level,
each time you get to a level, the level above you, the grass is greener concept,
the level above you looks a little more subtle, so you get, you lose your desire to
stay at this level and you go up to the higher level of concentration. As you go
through those levels, you actually abandon any desire for any kind of sensation
and the way in which you abandon them.. this is not the subject, ok, first you
abandon, ah, mental unhappiness, then you abandon physical pain, and then you
abandon, ah, mental happiness, and then you abandon physical happiness, so
what are you left with? There are five feelings, five sensations you can have,
what are they? Mental and physical pain, bodily, I’m sorry, mental happiness
and mental unhappiness, physical pain and physical pleasure, and what’s the one
you have left? You’re capable of having five sensations.

[Student: Awareness]

One is going on, one of them is going on all the time.
[Student: Discrimination]

No.

[Student: Perception]

No

[Student: Awareness]

What’s that?

[Student: Awareness]

No. What’s the fifth sensation you can have? If you’re not feeling good and
you’re not feeling bad, what are you feeling?

[Student: Neutral.]

Neutral. Its neutral. So as you go, as you go up through the five, as you go up
through four levels of high meditation, you give up any desire to [unclear]
sensation. And each of those sensations becomes a distraction and at the very
highest level, you’re left with only neutral feeling. Its like you reached some
great wisdom and some great height of meditation and the only thing you want
to do is feel neutral.

[Student: So this is cutting the root of attachment and aversion, is that the…]

Its not. [laughter]. And this is not considered a good method. Its considered a
worldly method. The Hindus do it. You get to a point where you don’t even care
about feeling good anymore, but then you’ve still got neutral feeling. Neutral
feeling is still suffering, neutral feeling is still, ah, samsara.

[Student: So that doesn’t tie off unclear]]

Well, you asked! [laughter]



[Student: I just wondered if it was related.]
To get to the very first of those stages, you have to get to here.

[Student: After you get to there then you…]

It comes after this.
This is the highest you can get in the desire realm.

[Student: [unclear]]

There are higher stages than this. But this, this is the basic state of mind you need
to be in. That state of mind and those states of mind are the same. They are …
shamatha.

[Student: All those are shamatha?]

Yeah.

[Student: All those other ones?]

Yeah. But they, that method, which is to try and get more and more blissed, and
to try and get more and more subtle states of mind, runs out, and what you
reach is this very, very high state of mind, where you’re just totally feeling
neutral, and then, and then you can’t go on beyond that. To go beyond that you
have to do what?

[Student: [unclear]]



[Student: See emptiness directly.]

See emptiness directly. So it’s a big danger. You can go higher than that. Go
another four levels and get stuck.

[Student: And this is in regard to the formless realm?]

Because the, because the capacity to feel is samsara.

[Student: And so then if you go into a formless realm at that point would you
rebirth in a formless realm?]
Yeah, you would be reborn into a formless realm. The capacity, the sensation of
a neutral feeling is suffering.

[Student: They say in this book earlier, equanimity and awareness. What do
they mean by awareness? Is it awareness and equanimity?]

That could be… there could be ten different contexts for that. You’d have to
show me the context.

[Student: So Michael?]



[Student: Michael, I think they were talking about this.]

Excuse me.

[Student: I think they were talking about this.]

They were probably talking, no, its probably about the, sounds like the [unclear]



[Student: So Michael, is there ever a level that you would attain where the
power of concentration, or power of focus doesn’t degenerate when you stop
meditating? You know…
Yeah, the Buddha. [laughter]



[Student: [unclear]]

There’s a famous quotation. The Buddha’s in deep state of meditation, oooh quiz!
You know what it is… Even when he’s eating, even when he’s walking, even
when he’s talking, even when he’s …

[Student: So let’s say you get to that level of shamatha meditation. If you stop
meditating, do you lose it?]

Yeah, I think when you come out. [unclear]



[Student:    Yeah, like you stop meditating. You get to this level, you stop
meditating for a couple of weeks, a couple of months, you…]

It just says that you, this just says that those two problems are going to occur
during the period of your meditation.

[Student: So?]

If you meditate effortlessly after you sit down.

[Student: Yeah.]

So then you feel when you get up, you lose it.

[Student: Yeah, so, I’m not saying that you are in meditation all the time, I’m
saying, let’s say you don’t meditate for a month or two, and then you go back
and meditate, let’s say, maybe you drop back down to where [unclear]]

Yeah, true.

[Student: You don’t get to a level where you sort of stay there, your mind stays
at that level of focal abilities?]

Yeah, yeah, that’s true... you cannot… its like a diet, when you go off it for a
         while, [unclear]



[Student: You get fat.]

[unclear]



[Student: [unclear]]

Sorry to keep you late. You guys asked.

[Student: You asked for it.]

[Prayer]

[end of cassette Side B.]
940312-1
Course III: Applied Meditation