ACI 2 «Буддийское Прибежище», занятие 5

Course II: Buddhist Refuge
Class Five: Definition of Nirvana
11/18/93
transcribed by: Amara Goodman

Proofread – May 2003



It’s a really good opportunity for me to go back to the beginning. Oh, kinda...

[student: Thank you]

The thing that's gonna get a class okay [laughs]. All right, Tom made a very nice
chart of the whole paths and levels and all that, and I'm trying to...before I
spread it I want to make sure it's correct so I'm holding it and I'm trying to
correct a few things. I said that the two thoughts of bodhichitta have to alternate
because one mind can't hold two thoughts at the same time.

[student: You already told us that.]

Okay, ‘cause it was on the homework a lot, and it's not your fault, I mean I didn't
take off for that...

[student: We don't mind.]

Because I said that they have to alternate, if, but they don't have to alternate
because they are...

[student: Complementary.]

Complimentary. They can focus on the same object at the same time.

[student: So you said in the class that they somehow, mysteriously didn’t
alternate, remember?]

Well, now I I want to say clearly that they don't, they don’t alternate, they're
complimentary they occur at the same time. And there is a debate in the books,
which is what I was dimly remembering, which is that the two sense
consciousness can’t, they have to alternate. You can't... if if the object and if the
two thoughts are not complementary they do have to alternate, but not these
two thoughts, they can be in the mind at the same time. And that's kinda a good
reason for bodhichitta to be in the main mind then, because you have to be
talking about the main mind that can hold those two at the same time. So that
makes some sense. And then what was the other one? Some people got, a lot of
people got one thing, not wrong, but the main reason why you have to say,
“belonging to the greater way,” is to … is … is to block that sugar cane
bodhichitta, could be, could be bodhi...Mahayana bodhichitta. And that... not not
that there are two other lower Hinayana wishes for enlightenment that it could
be that's not the main reason that they do. So what was the other one? Oh, {dron
doki} which I still wasn't satisfied with and I, I couldn't explain it well, and that’s
why no one got it very well. When it says "under it's own power of it's own
accord" so I asked my Lama again, I'm taking him to the doctor all the time now
a days, so it's really useful. I try to pick one that's far away [laughs][laughter] I
get talk to him in the car and...

[student: And he goes huh, right?]

No, well he tries to get away from me

[student: Huh?]

But he's in, stuck in the car you know? [laughter]

[student: And [unclear] those questions coming and he goes like this, huh?]

[student: He always goes to sleep..]

He hate questions. But anyway... the difference between main mind and a
mental function. And and when does one act of its own accord and when does it
act not of its own accord. So I said, could you give me an example of something
acting of its own accord and something not acting of its own accord and he gave
me what I, now I like the answer and I thought this answer and the last one he
gave me I liked a lot. He says; for example if you think of an object and your
concentrating on the main object and not on its, not on any quality of the object,
not on any paticular feature of the object what what should that state of mind
be? Mind or the mental function? Just the main awareness of an object.

[student: Main mind?]
That's main mind. And then mental function is: I'm jealous about this object, I'm
angry about this object, I want this object, I want to get away form this object.
Those are particular states of mind. When main mind moves to an object all,
there are, according to which school your are in, there are a certain number of
mental functions that have to move with it. For example: you can't have
awareness without feeling, without sensation, it's impossible. Sensation is always
going on, feeling is always going on, your mind is like a raw nerve it’s always
open. Sometimes you are feeling neutral feeling. And most people mistake that
for no feeling at all, but you are, you, your capacity for feeling is always open,
it’s always there. That's why it's so easy to shift to good feeling, bad feeling
[laughs], you know, you, one moment you're high, the next moment you're
down. Feeling is always coming along with main, whenever there is main mind
it doesn't matter if it is an ameoba or a human or a Buddha, when you have main
mind you have a sensation of feeling going on at the same time. So what he said
was when the...

[student: It's not raw consciousness?]

No it's not, it’s a mental function, okay. It's … it’s interested in the goodness or
badness or neutrality of the object

[student: Main mind?]

Should I feel...No the feeling, the capacity of feeling is thinking should I hate this
thing, should I like this thing, should I feel neutral about this thing and the main
mind is just aware of the object.

[student: You alread, you always have feeling?]



[student: Including the Buddha?]

Sometimes feeling is neutral, but you always have one of those three feelings.
Good feeling, bad feeling or neutral feeling.

[student: Even when you're out?]

Yeah, yeah and you have a very subtle kind of consciousness even when you are
dreaming, you're having some kind of emotion about the dream, that you like it,
you don't like it, or you're neutral about, but the neutrality is a feeling too.

[student: So the main mind and the mental function go together then?]

Right, they’re always linked, in five respects. And I didn't go through that with
you, and I will some other time. Like they're always occuring at the same time,
they’re always focused at the same object, they’re always made of the same
stuff, they’re always relying on the same sent(?), on the same faculty and some
there's another one [laughs]. There are five ways in which they are equivalent,
but what what he said which was very good is when main mind is focusing at
the object on on the general object, the … the {sem} the main mind is of its own
accord. and the {sem chung} the mental function like feeling is being dragged
along.

[student: It's the act of occupying, the act of just of fixing focus?]

Yeah, the act of just being aware of something, who's, who’s in charge is main
mind. Who's being dragged along...

[student: This is an essence of practice?]

Like a kid after it' mother.

[student: So, primary perception of the object.]

Yeah, the just the basic awareness of it all without thinking this is good, this is
bad, I li... this is red, this is high. So who's in charge right then is main mind and
and feeling is getting dragged along, so main mind is acting of its own accord.
He's in charge. And then feeling is acting in a dependence on main mind. Feeling
was dragged along not independently not of his own accord, he’s dependent on
mind. So when the object is being perceived by main mind and all those little
mental functions who we say are in the .. are linked with main mind are dragged
along without any choice of their own. Now imagine that opposite case; you go
for refuge to an object, you are concentrating on the benefits of of the Buddha,
the good qualities of the Buddha, this is a mental function. You’re not just aware
of the Buddha, you're concentrating on different ways in which he can help you
and you're hoping. That, then a mental function is in charge and the main mind
it’s there you, your focusing on Buddha in general but not mainly. The main
thing in your mind, the main guy who has the power at that time is not main
mind it’s, it’s the hope. The hope is in charge. The hope is, mani...we call we call
manifest in your … in your consciousness at that
at moment. The hope is standing out in front and main mind is just getting
dragged along by the by the hope so in that case hope is acting of its own accord.
In that case the little mental function is in charge an it's pulling mommy.

[student: But that's, but refuge is the only situation which will..]

No, no many others.

[student: Oh, okay.]

Yeah, many other mental functions are described as acting of their own accord. It
must mean something like the emotion is so strong and it’s focused so much on
a particular characteristic of the object that the little mental function is in charge
and main mind being lead by the .. mommy is being lead the child in this case.
The hope is is strong and the hope is focused on a on a particular features of the
object and the awareness of the object is not in the front. He's … he’s there 'cause
he has to come, otherwise he wouldn't be able to focus on anything. But he's not
the main player. The main player is the mental function, in that case. So that's
what "of it's own accord" means, and I like that explanation. I've never heard that
clearly before but anyway that clears up the last part of the definition of
bodhichitta we had. Yeah.

[student: Sometimes they say when you meditate so you know, like you do
during {shamata}, you concentrate on an image, say an image of the Buddha,
because they talk about these two, like the consciousness rests on..]

That's called {Den}, yeah.

[student: Something..]

Yeah..

[student: So you know so like once if your eyes are looking at it, your
consciousness will be directed toward, is that the same thing?]

No.

[student: Or is that something different?]
Mind and mental function in this case maybe belief in that object, faith in that
object, an awareness of that object, are both resting on your eye consciousness,
on you eye power. On the physical thing inside you eye. On the nerve, the optic
nerve. And that's what that means. That's … that’s what that refers to in that
case, yeah.

[student: So are you saying...]

Oh and by the way and {digenzin} which means samadhi, the ability to
concentrate is one of the mental functions that accompanies all states of mind. It
not the big {digenzin] that we're talking about. It's not the samadhi about
concentrating on a Buddha, not not the samadhi that it means in meditation but
the samadhi which is a mental function. Every being has that. Every being has
the ability and is concentrating on an object, even if it’s only for a fleeting
moment of time [laughs]. Every state of mind has some ability to concentrate.
So every state of mind has samadhi, but it's not the samadhi that we talk about,
it's a mental function called samadhi. Yeah.

[student: So are you saying then that which ever the feelings or the main mind,
which ever has the most strength or intention..]

Right, right.

[student: ...is the one that's acting of it's own accord?]

Right, right, right and I like that. That makes sense to me now. So it can kind of
switch back and forth you know, if you're having a strong emotion like hope
that this objects' influence can save you from hell [laughs] then your main
awareness of the object is taking the back seat and your hope is taking the front
seat.

[student: So even if the main mind has to conceive the object before you can
hope in it, the main mind would not...]

Maybe at the moment of conceiving it, the main mind is in charge.

[student: Yeah, that's right.]

And then at the moment of taking refuge, you know at the next moment when
you’re taking refuge in that object, first you’re focusing on that object and then
you start to feel this hope. It shifts from main mind being in charge to hope
being in charge. I like that explanation, it no, it's a nice explanation. Okay.

[student: So the hope probably perceives the object anyway. I mean once...]

[laughs]

[student...hope refuge..]

Ah! [laughs] {[unclear]} [laughter]. All right we're going to talk about Nirvana
today [laughs], all right. We finished refuge, going for refuge and we finished
bodhichitta again we’re on we're still in the chapter, the first chapter of eight
chapters. We will take us about two years to get out of the first chapter, that's the
main thing we study in the monastery. Yeah.

[student: Can I ask on question about last week?]

Yeah okay.

[student: You know about the four divisions of the ..]

{Chirun}

[student:...Of the spiritual levels..]

Right.

[student: ...Bodhichitta. I, I'm having a hard time of sort of conceiving of how
each one is considered bodhichitta.. we're talking about enlightenment here I
guess, aren't we? We're not really talking about bodhichitta, we're talking..]

No we are.

[student: We're talking about four divisions, emptiness in a way, divisions of...]

It's really just love, love with four different levels of understanding of who it's
loving. And that the love that we have now for anybody is a very very ignorant
about it's object.

[student: So I, okay so it's, we're talking about four levels of understanding of the
same concept.]

Right.

[student: We're not dividing the concept...]

Right right

[student: We’re dividing the levels of understanding.]

It's still those two wishes: still wants Buddhahood and it still wants to help
everybody, but it's understanding everybody in different ways now.

[student: Not just everybody, everything.]

Yeah. Starting with a, well it's emphasis is on the object of sentient beings. It's
called {ming me nynge je}, {ming me tzay way terchen Chenrezig}. What's that?

[student: Something about the Avalokiteshvara.]

{Mig may tzay way terchen Chenrezig}. Yeah. It's that very important prayer to
Tsong Kapa that we we pray every time we do that. {Tzay tsung},{ming me tzay
way terchen chenrezig tzay tsung}. {Ming may tzay wa}: Love that doesn't see
anything and that means he has developed that love that perceives..

[student: Picturing no-self..]

...it it see that those beings are empty at the same time that it has a true love for
those beings that a mother has for her only child.

[student: So the time that you can get to level five then you have no more
obstructions, so then ...]

Path five please [laughs].       This is what gave you guys a headache last time
[laughter].

[student: You have to also..]

By the way I I learned, and then the second time I taught it was much better
[laughs] [laughter].
[student: Piece of cake for these few.]

[student: You also have ..] [laughter]

When you get to path five..

[student: No the the emptiness of inherent existence of all phenomena...

Right.

[student: And not just persons.

Right, right that's true that's true.

[student: Or is that just...]

No that's, that’s absolutely true. Yeah in all schools, even [laughs].

[student: So last week you said these were the levels of understanding
emptiness, now you say...

Well they’re...

[student: They're levels of understanding bodhicitta.]

Sure, they're all, we call {sursak} when you have a debate you say {semesursak}.
Okay? {Durga bay}.

[student: Mind is...has...]

I, I'm starting, I'm stepping from the point of, I’m I'm talking tonight about
bodhichitta. And everything I say about emptiness refers to bodhicitta. When
you have a debate you say okay look I don't have to keep repeating {tete sema}
Okay? You understand? You understand? The guy says, ”Yeah, yeah I
understand." Okay, everyone understand? I'm talking about {tete seme}. Yeah,
yeah, okay. Then you start debating emptiness, but it's all from the point of view
of bodhicitta.

[student: It's a good idea to do that on your homework or tests first.]
Or the teacher.

[student: And say overall, by the way everything [laughter] on here is obviously
about enlightenment for the sake of all beings.]

Very good. Yes.

[student: Dat,dat data.]

Of course you, because are a {sini taba}, you're not just a regular old thinker.
You're an analytical thinker. Okay. Say: {Nun Drup} [repeat], {malupa} [repeat],
{pang bay}[repeat], {solsur} [repeat], {tango} [repeat], {nangdeke} [repeat],{sine}
[repeat],{nangdeke} [repeat], {sine} [repeat]. We'll break down {nangde}, okay.
This is the definition of..

[student: What are we saying?]

Nirvana.

[student: Okay.]

Okay. This whole thing is a definition of nirvana. I mean it's really nice to know
this. I felt so good when I studied this. I said, you know everybody's got their
own idea of what nirvana is, you know. It's a restaurant up on...[laughter] time
square okay, it’s a perfume...[laughs]. Yeah, yeah

[student: It's a new perfume isn't it?]

Yeah, yeah, it’s a perfume [laughter]. It's a band right?

[student: It’s a band...]

[student: The perfume of samsara.] [laughter]

[student: When you're sick of that perfume then...]

[student: Tell 'em to come out with nirvana.

{Nung}, {nung} is short for {nung eng le}. This whole thing is short for {nye ne le
de ba}

[student: Mike, what's the first letter of that last line of Tibetan? Is it a m...]

{Myata nya}

[student: {Myata}?]

{Nya}, {myata nya}. You don't see it very often.

[student: No you don't and it’s...]

It's all a little funky.

[student: Yeah a little funky]

[laughs] The the Sanskrit word is nirvana. {Nger} come from a Sanskrit word
{nyi}, which means out and {ven} came into English as, in the word
vent,ventilation, wind. Okay, to blow. {Ven} means to blow, so {nger ven}
means to blow out, like a candle, to blow out a candle. Not like to blow on a
exam or a quiz [laughs].

[student: {Ner} means...]

{Ner} means out and {ven} means to blow. And and it came into Greek and
Latin and English as...

[student: Vent.]

As wind, wind and vent, ventilation, okay. I think even fan comes from {ven}.
So nirvana... The Tibetans didn't translate it, by the way, that gives you better
idea when you’re debating the definition of nirvana then the Tibetan translation
or maybe not. Anyway, in the early, early years of Tibetan Buddhism they were
into translating things by some beautiful word that described all its qualities,
rather than it, then calling it blow out they would call it {Nangen depa}. They did
the same with a number of other things, like the word for Jewel in Sanskrit, in
Tibetan, in Sank...it's {ratna}, which means Jewel, the Three Jewels of Refuge, but
in Tibetan they they put {konchok}, which means "rare and supreme". You see
they didn't translate it the word for Jewel. This is called the early period of
translation in Tibet, and a, some of those translations were kept in later years
because they were so, maybe they were so prevalent by that time they couldn't
change them, and also they're very beautiful. So {Nang yen}, {nang yen} means
"grief". It's very specific word, grief. It's what you do, even in now a days, in
Tibetan we say: {Nang yen se dok}, "his mother died and he's grieving". Okay.
{Alma trag nang yen se drok}: "he's grieving his mother who died". So that's the
only meaning it has in Tibetan. {Le} means from or beyond, in this case it means
beyond. And {de} means gone beyond, past, gone beyond suff...gone beyond
grief.

[student: {De} itself means gone beyond?]

Yeah, {De}, {depa}, means gone beyond.

[student: What does {le} mean again?]

Beyond, gone, {de} means...

[student: {Le}.]

...Transcended and {le} means beyond.

[student: Oh.]

Let's see, gone up above, gone out from...

[student: And {pa}?]

It's just part of a verb, like to to go, the to in to go, to beyond, to go. {Pa} is to go
beyond grief and that's the Tibetan word for nirvana.

[student: That's nice.]

Yeah it's a nice word. {Sing me} means "definition", you know that now, I think.
Okay and {ke} means "of", definition of nirvana. I I was so confused, you know,
about what nirvana was, you know, for may years and and I was very happy to
see this. It's, it means this {Nung drup}. Okay. {Nun}, {Nun}, stands for {Ngon
mon}. What's that Tom?

[student, Tom: {Cle she}.]
Yeah, {Cle she}, meaning?

[student, Tom: The mental defil...defilements...]

I I like mental affliction, and I'll tell you why; the Sanskrit word is {cle sha}, it
comes from a root root {clish} and {clish} means to bug somebody, to bother
somebody, to pick at somebody, okay [laughs]. The {ngomons} have that
function, in fact their definition is {[unclear]}. They ruin your peace of mind okay.
Any thought that ruins your peace of mind is a {ngomon}. I I sometimes, to
make it easy I call it a bad thought. I think mental affliction is a good word too,
'cause afflict ,means to, you know, bother somebody, okay, hurts you, picks on
you, picks at you [laughs]. As you know, if you get angry at work, or if you
have desire for some person, or you know you can't rest, it's always some
kinda...bother. Okay. {Drup} {drup}, means "an obstacle". It comes from the
word that means shadow, because it blocks the way, it blocks you from seeing
something, or achieving something. So {Nung drup} is one word, it's a technical
word. {Nung drup} means an a a "mental affliction obstacle," okay, a bad thought
obstacle, an obstacle which is, a bad thought obstacle okay. Now, then you get
in this debate, in the monastery, you know, are all {nung drup}s {ngomon}s?
Okay. I'll ask Kila, to be a bad thought obstacle, do you have to be a bad
thought?       Are are all bad thought obstacle bad thoughts, or or is there
something else in in the obstacle that's not the bad thought itself. Are those two
sets equivalent? Can you think of anything that would block you, by the way
main function of a {nung drup}, the obstacle, what does it keep you from? What
does it block you from?

[student: Good thoughts.]

No. Mainly nirvana. It's defined as an obstacle that blocks you mainly from
nirvana.

[student: Is ignorance a {clo she}?]

There's a bitter debates about it. Okay, very difficult debates. Even if, if it’s if it’s...

[student: I thought ignorance was considered the root affliction?]

Oh, absol...it's a root of all evil, but there are big debates about, for example, is it
a, is it a non-virtue and and it's a, pretty much a, not. It's neutral, it's very weird.
It takes a lot of thinking about that. But most it it is listed among the mental
afflictions, but you'll get into that.   It’s one of the big difference between the
different schools.

[student: 'Cause I I was thinking that it could be an obstacle that was not a {clo
she}.]

Oh, say it again? Ignorance...

[student:that could be an obstacle...]

Oh yeah, that could be, yeah. It is in one way, yeah, but I I,Rinpoche...

[student: So what is the answer?] [laughter]

What we call {bak cha}. {Bak cha} is a very important idea, okay, the word is
kinda cute. {Bak cha}, it's like bok choy, you know. [laughter] What's {bak cha}
though, you know?

[student: Seeds?]

Yeah. Mental seeds.

[student: Karmic seeds.]

It literally means "a mental stain", a stain on your consciousness, okay. And
those are, when you talk about {nung drup}s, which are the obstacles of the
mental afflictions, the mental affliction obstacles, it can be a mental affliction or it
can be the {bak cha} for a mental affliction...

[student: From a mental affliction?]

For a mental affliction, meaning...

[student: Wait a minute, isn't there a difference between seed and the mental
stain?]

Yeah, there is...

[student: Karmic seeds are...]
Yeah...

[student: So what's the better word to use?]

Well, I'll describe it to you, and you tell me, okay. It's the, it's the potential for it
in your mind, in your mind stream.

[student: What the it, is?]

It, {bak cha}...

[student: [unclear]]

The seed, what I'm calling seed or stain is the potential for you to get angry.

[student: That's better than...]

It's something within you, within your mind, which is not even mental, as a
matter fact, it's a, it stays, in your mind and as, as for so long as you posses it...

[student: It's the potential?]

It’s, you, you can still get angry. It's what triggers anger in your mind.

[student: Are you saying...]

It's what you carry around in your mental stream, that when someone yells at
you it it it produces the {nge mo}.

[student: What the word for karma? What do they use when they talk about
karmic seeds? What's...]

Similar, similar. The difference, the difference depends on what school your in.
[laughs] You know, That's, that’s one of the main questions of the mind only
school.

[student: ] Are you distinguishing between the karmic propensity to experience
something that’s already there, a seed verses the propensity to cause more
seeds. Is that the difference?
What I'm talking about now is the the seed for anger, which is within you, and
whether or not you get angry normally depends on the situation, the
environment that you're in. There, they make a distinction, for example: monks.
They stay in the middle of the monastery, they never see a lady, okay. Did they
get rid of the {bak cha} of desire? No. Do they have desire in their minds
presently, mainfestly? No. But if they go outside, if they don't, if they go outside
[unclear] monastery and they go to the town and they see some nice lady then
they can get desire 'cause they have the {bakcha}, they still have the seed in their
minds. They don't have desire in their minds while in the monastery, because
there nothing, there's nothing to to cause it, but but as long as they still have the
seed, then when they, all the... What do you call it?

[student: The, call 'em...]

Like the...

[student: Contributing...

Factors...

[student: Factors.]

...are around. When the, basically, when you’re, they’re in a different
environment where there is an object...

[student: Secondary causes.]

Cause which could trigger that seed and make it become desire, that, then they
still aren't arhants, for example, that's one example. Okay, so the mental
affliction desire or anger, what's the stuff it's made of? We we talk about stuff in
Buddhism. Mental stuff, physical stuff, or stuff which is neither. Okay. [laughs]
What is it?

[student: Mental.]

It's mental stuff. Okay, it made of mind. Okay, what's the {bak cha} made of?
It's not mind, it's it's some kind of... potential. It's some kind of energy. It's some
kind of force that stays in your heart, and when the, when all the conditions, is
what I was looking for, when all the conditions are ready, there's a nice lady
there, you had a bad night, you're tired, you know, whatever, and you see her
and then you get desire.

[student: So you're saying this is an energetic predisposition?]

It's, it's a potential.

[student: An energetic potential?]

It's a little bit of energy in your mind, it's not mental, it's some kind of seed, some
kind of power for that thing to happen in your heart.

[student: So what can we say, you know we had this conversation about what is
karma, you know, we say, you know, karma is not some kind of energetic
propensity, that you know, not some energetic stuff that's happening to you,
and yet now you're saying...]

Well...

[student: Energetic...]

I'm not, I never referred to karma, I'm not talking about karma...

[student: No the last series...]

Yeah, when a, basically karma is a {simba}. Karma is whenever the mind moves,
that's karma.

[student: Well...]

Now after you commit a karma which I don’t exactly...

[student: Right, The karmic seeds, [unclear]]

The the seed for that is similar to a {bakchak}.

[student: It is an energetic thing.]

Yeah, it is a same kind of thing. It is a kind of energy that stays in your own
mind. So anyway, {nundrup} refers now you know, not only to the mental
affliction , but to their potentials in your own heart. So and those two things: the
bad thoughts that you actually have and then all those little potentials, then you
know that you from your past life, you have a stronger potential or a weaker
potential for each kind of bad thought. You know. I happen to have a more for
desire then for anger, it's very hard for someone to get me angry. If I see a nice
lady in the porto-potty I’ll, I look, I'm not supposed to, okay. So I I have still that
{bakcha}. Okay, so that's tadifference you, each person has different strengths of
{bakchaks} for different things. {Nhundrup} means that both those bad thoughts
and the potentials for those bad thoughts block you from nirvana. They obscure
it, they stop you from reaching nirvana.

[student: How do you spell {bakchak}?]

[student: Yeah, how do you...

I'll spell it for you [laughs]. In Tibetan it’s, and {bak} sorta means a stain and
{chak} mean a growth, something a stain grow...grown in your, a a stain
developed. Kinda a nasty idea, you know. [laughter]
But you have 'em, they stain your consciousness, your mental stream. If you're
who you seem to be, ought to.

[student: Well, the yeah, you shouldn't make them sound like they're all
negative either.]

[student: Can you write out the word...]

They, they are pretty much negative, but there are some good ones too.

[student: What, what the words stain?]

You can call it mental seed.

[student: Oh, mental seed.]

Yeah, seed in your mind.

[student: Michael, getting an initiation is not a {bakchak}?]

It, I don't think they would refe...they could refer to it {bakchak} but not
normally. {Nunpa} or...
[student: Rinpoche, Rinpoche refers to it as seeds of {bakchak} [unclear].]

It's possible but it’s not normally. It's not, it's not the most frequent use of the
word. How's that?

[student: Don't they refer to it as the dharmic potential or something? How do
you...]

[student: So a good stain verses a bad stain?]

I like to call it a mental seed, huh?

[student: What a good thing would be a ment..would be what if that was as
antithesis of a {bakchak}?]

Oh, a {bakchak} can be good, but most of the time when you say {bakchak}
you’re talking about the {bak cha} for a bad thing it's poss...it's quite possible to
have a good {bak cha} too.

[student: So you would just say mental seed or something?]

Yeah, a mental seed, yeah. It is neutral idea. It doesn't necessarily have to be a
bad thing, but most times it's it refers to a, it's a {pang cha} most of the time it's
something you want to remove form your mental stream.

[student: I have a question.]

Yeah.

[student: The the seed, the seed is happen just for in this life or it has be carried
over?]

The main cause for that seed is your habits of your past life. The reason you
have, the reason why some people get angry easily and some people don't get
angry easily now, is is the strength of the {bakchak}, and that depends on their
past life. If they got angry a lot in their past life, they have what we call a thick
{bakchak} for getting angry in this life, and they, it, anger will be triggered in
them quickly and then if you don't have...it it does refer to your habits of your
past life, mainly, mainly.
[student: Yeah, but to me, I feel like it just happen, like when you grown up, with
what kinda family you live.]

You can get some in in this life too, yeah and that’s can be a good thing or a bad
thing. You know, you can get good {bak chak} in this life, in your early days and
even the secret teachings depend on that concept, in some ways. Okay.
{Nhundrup} means "bad thought obstacle" which now you know doesn't have to
be only a bad thought can be a seed. {Malupa}, {malupa} {malupar} means "in
their entirety," totally all of them, okay, {malupar}. Literally it means “with
nothing left over,” but you don't have to worry about that, okay. Entirely, in
their entirety okay. {Panga} means "eliminated," eliminated from your mental
stream, okay, removed from your mental stream, {panga}. {Solsur tango} is a
nasty word, very difficult, okay. You know {gompa} already. {Gok}, {gok} means
cessation, {gok} means cessation.

[student: Cessation or sensation?]

Cessation.

[student: Cessation?]

Yeah, and a, an and what does cessation mean? Who can give me a cessation?
Who, who, who, who?

[student: Cessation of anger.]

[student: Anger.] [laughter]

[student: [unclear]]

[student: Cessation of anger.]

Yeah, cessation normally implies permanent. Yeah, I mean in Buddhism you're
trying to get these cessation’s, almost the meaning of the word cessation, implies
a ceasing right? So the cessation of anger would be if you could no longer ever
get angry again. Okay. I'm trying to think of an important {sul sor tarmingipo},
but I just had...

[student: By the way, for the purpose of clarity, in terms of the class and
homework and test...]
Uhuh...

[student: Is, is it safe to agree that cessation means permanent or do we have to
keep in mind that some cessations aren't permanent?]

I can't, there are no cessation which aren't...

[student: Sorry, go on.]

Cessation, meaning the absence of something is always permanent. Negative
things are normally permanent, meaning unchanging. They're, the word, I I
don't wanna get into it, but the word permanent and impermanent in in
Buddhism, in English is is kind of not very clear, maybe it should have been
changing and unchanging. I I don't like them, the use of the words permanent
and impermanent, but I, that's another story. Okay, basically permanent means
if if it means that you’ll never revert from that state, yeah, most cessations are
like that.

[student: You've lost, you’ve lost the thing and you've lost the seeds for it right?]

[student: The definite maybe.]

When you debate, you have to say that, okay. What's that?

[student: You've lost the thing and you've lost the seeds for it.]

Right, right.

[student: Completely.]

Yeah, the cessation here refers to that. Okay, a cessation in which you have
eliminated from your mind, from your mental stream every one of the bad
thoughts and their seeds. Okay, now we gotta talk about {sol sur tsak}, which is
which is a difficult idea, okay.

[student: Can I ask a favor?]

Yeah.
[student: Could we have just a minute to write down what you've just said?]

Okay, go ahead [laughs].

[student: The cessation in which you have eliminated?

Yeah, roughly, okay. A cessation in which you have eliminated in their entirety
the mental affliction obstacles.

[student: So we're not talking about suppressing {bak chak}s or neutralizing
{bak chak}s, we're talking about eliminating them, right?]

Sure.

[student: Okay, getting ride of them.]

Yeah, okay. There are two kinds of {gompa}s, then two kinds of cessations, you
can divide sensations into two kinds. In the abhidharma, [unclear]{Du mang
ching yam ke namka dange drim po namkar drame kopo},and that's the source
of this idea. There are cessations you get from seeing emptiness directly, and
there are cessations you get before that.

[student: You said [unclear] You said with regards to the second wish of the
four...]

Okay.

[student: You said many times that having once perceived emptiness directly,
that you're never the same.]

Right.

[student: And you would even at one point, I believe said, “that you will never
again think that things exist inherently”.]

Right.

[student: But then you backed off, and said but you still could think that.]

No. In the first, in the first, before {tong-len}...
[student: No, that was the second you said that.]

No. Uh uh. Can not, can see it, can be forced to see it.

[student: But don't you still have the seeds to see it?]

Yeah, well absolutely. Yeah, you get ride of...

[student: I mean, but don’t you still have the seeds to think it...]

But, you don't have the seeds to believe in what you're seeing anymore, never
again.

[student: This is it. The second level?]

After the path of seeing, yeah.

[student: Right, but you still have the seeds. That's what, {golong} isall about;
getting ride of those seeds.

[student: Seeds to what please?]

To seeing things a self existent.

[student: To see?]

To to being forced to see things as self existent even though you know you’re
wrong. [laughs]

[student: Not to think, right?]

Yeah, yeah.

[student: Okay, thanks, that's good.]

[student: Not just the seed to seeing it, but [unclear] thinking it seed.]

[student: Not just perceiving it that way, but thinking that way.]
Di...when I say thinking and that's why I held his paper, what I mean is believing
it intellectually.

[student: Yeah.]

If someone asks you, "is it possible for a thing to exist em... self existently?" say
it’s possible up to the path of seeing. That your mind could be swayed by a bad
teacher, like some teacher teaches you something wrong about emptiness, it's
possible up to that moment that you you could be swayed by, by a, by a
convincing wrong argument about emptiness, that emptiness could be
something other than what it really is. After that moment it's impossible for you
to ever be swayed in that way because you saw it directly and it makes sense
that you would never be swayed again, and you won't be, by the way. [laughs]
It's a nice feeling you know, you can go to all these lectures and hear all this b.s.
and you just say, “oh, that’s wrong, you know that's silly, where'd you get that?
Show me the book. Obviously, you didn't see it...emptiness directly, now
can...where'd you get this idea about it, you know, show me the book”. And
they’re all, “well I figured it out”. [laughter] You know. Just wrong. Flatly
wrong. And you'll know that at a certain point. You'll see, you'll see it. It's like
someone telling you something silly about, you know, “hey a car works because
there three horses in the trunk, you know and you know, if you're an aborigine,
you might believe it, but once you’ve seen, you, you say, well that's silly, you
know, that's not like that.

[student: But one you get to the third level, for example, and you still have the
seeds to see things as though they were...]

Third kind, please.

[student: Third...]

[laughs] Or third path.

[student: Third path.]

Yeah, path of seeing. Path of seeing?

[student: Well, I don't know.]

Third kind of bodhichitta.
[student: The third kind of bodhichitta.]

Okay, okay, right.

[student: You still have the seeds.]

Right.

[student: To see...]

To be forced to see it that way.

[student: As though they were inherently existent.]

Yeah, but you, but it never happens manifestly in your mind.

[student: That corresponds, are we talking the same thing, one with respect to
seeing, one with respect to thinking?]

Yes.

[student: As between levels of...]

Yep, yeah. [laughs]

[student: Which...]

[laughter] That’s I mean, you guys taught me that, I'm just teaching you back.
All right [laughs]. [unclear] Yeah.

[student: You say you have two cessations...]

Yeah that's, can I get back on the subject? [laughs][laughter] There are two kinds
of cessations.

[student: So the the first cessation is when you see emptiness?]

I didn't start with, I didn't start them yet okay. I did start, but I didn't get very
far. The first kind of cessation is a cessation you get because you've seen
emptiness directly.

[student: That's the first kind?]

Yeah.

[student: Cessation?]

Yeah. Yeah.

[student: And and what is it exactly that cessates at that point?]

Depends on what, depends on what path you're on. But I'll, I don't want, don't
ask, let me go my own way for a little bit, okay [laughs]. I'll get to it...

[student: Okay.]

...But let me present it the way that the book does and the way I understand it.
All right, {sol sur tango}. When you perceive emptiness directly what happens
right after that? We've said it many times.

[student: You come out of it?]

As you're coming down from the direct perception.

[student: You you meet a Buddha...]

You’re still in the path of seeing...by the way

[student: Who tells you that you will become a Buddha yourself within sam...

He doesn't say it but you do see the {dharmakaya} root gurus, you reali...you
understand it, you have met the {dharmakaya} root guru, you understand that
you have met Buddhas. You believe that you have seen the Buddha and you
have seen the Buddha. It's not that he tells you, but you understand that you
have so many lives to go, that's...

[student: Yeah, I know.]

Do you have a problem with that?
[student: But last time be talked about that, you said no you see the Buddha face
to face directly and...]

I don't sa...didn't say that, you see his...

[student: I asked...]

..Form body.

[student: Well, let's not go there actually.]

Okay. You do see the Buddha, you see his, you see one of his bodies.

[student: He's amazing, glorious.]

Okay. Directly. Okay. Those, those ideas that you have as you come out of the
direct perception of emptiness, seeing ho...that you did have past lives, really
understanding that this life is suffering, seeing how many lives you have to go,
seeing a Buddha. Those perceptions are all related to the Four Nobel Truths,
that's why they're called the Four Nobel Truths. You see the truth of the four
nobel truths, it, that is the first time you see the real truth of the Four Nobel
Truths, during that time. You, you go throughout the Four Nobel Truths one by
one, and the word nobel is a bad translation for ayra. Why are they called ayra
truths?

[student: Because they come from direct perception of emptiness.]

Yeah, ‘cause you just became an ayra. So they shouldn't have never called them
nobel, it's a bad translation.

[student: But that's a big distinction, isn't it?]

Not it's a, it's a, the word is...

[student: I mean it’s a huge distinction

[student: That changes the whole thing.}

Bad translation
[student: It certainly does.]

No, it has nothing to do with being ignoble or noble, okay, the word is {pakpa},
the word is ayra.

[student: It’s amazing.]

It's just a bad translation.

[student That’s incredible.] [laughter]

It’s ayra truths because you're an ayra now and you're seeing that they're true.

[student: [unclear] ayra.]

And you really do, you go through them one by one, ding ding ding ding. Oh
yeah, everything really is suffering, I really am doomed to die in this body, you
know, I, I really and, and it really did come from my bad thoughts and karma
and there is a way out, I see the end of my lives, I, I see that in seven lives I'll be
finished. And I see what a Buddha is. And I understand that these books are
holy and precious and and they are completely right, you know, every word in
them is completely correct, and and my god I better be careful with them from
now on, you know. This is, this is my savior, these words are my savior, and
you you have all these emotions, and these per...perceptions at that time, that's,
that's perceiving the Four Nobel Truths one by one, and that's what {sol sur}
means. {Sol sur} means "one by one". {Tak}, {tak} means "to analyze," or to see
them one by one. Okay, to go through them one by one.

[student: Okay, is both {sol sur} and {tak} is it both referring to the Four Nobel
Truths?]

{Sol sur} is referring to ind...one, {sol sur} means "one by one", meaning the Four
Noble Truths one by one.

[student: That's what referred to.]

And if you want to get {tenpo} it's the sixteen aspects of the Four Nobel Truths,
but I didn't want you get into that [laughter].
[student: It is definately [unclear]?]

Yeah, yeah. [laughter]

[student: Can, can you tell anything about Four Nobel Truth?]

Yeah, Four Noble Truths are this: I really am suffering, that's the first one, I
mean everything about me is suffering, period. That my job is going to screw
up sooner or later, any any person I love or care for is either going to die, or I 'm
gonna die, or we'll split up, there's no other choice, okay [laughs]. My own body
is doomed, you know, I'm gonna get cancer, aids, who cares? It’s, I mean, it's
one of the [laughter] options, you know, there's no future. It's suffering. I will
be horizonal, I'm doomed to horizontality [laughter], you know, one day I'll be
laying there, lifeless, I, I...it's true, you know.

[student: Is it true?]

Being standing up [laughter] is just like temporary condition, I will go down.
There’ll be a day when I will go down for the last time. I will. It’s it’s...

[student: Or go up and down.]

Gravity will win, [laughter] you know. It will. There's no question, it's just a
matter of time or place, you know and it's suffering, there's no future in this.
And and aside from that, that's just the lousy phys[unclear] condition. My mind
is unhappy, it's a state of unhappiness, I can't make it happy, I'm always
dissatisfied, I always want more, I can't have peace, it's always bothering me
[laughter]. I get something then I want more, I don't get something, I get
angry, I create more. The mind itself is messed up, okay. I don't even see things
right. You know if my perception of reality is all wrong, where I think things are
coming from is totally wrong.

[student: But the question is, can you fool yourself [unclear] long enough to get it
right?]

[laughs] Well, we're trying. [laughter] No, but, but at, at the moment of, at the,
just after you come out of the direct perception of emptiness you start to have
these forethoughts. You do perceive these things directly...

[student: Did you, you have to perceive emptiness first?]
Can you see them while you perceiving emptiness?

[student: No you can’t...]

You can not frame a thought while you're perceiving emptiness directly. You
can't think on life sucks, you know you can't. [laughter] You know, you can't,
you can't do that. It it's only as you come down, out of that perception, you're
still in the path of seeing by the way. Okay, it's the second half of the path of
seeing, path of seeing is not all meditational, direct deep meditation. It, it's also
the period after, it's the after glow and, and you are starting to go through the
Four Noble Truths. So you go through the; I am suffering, you believe it, and
then you see where it came from, you truly understand that it comes from your
own misperception of things. Okay, that’s number two, the source. So
number...the Four Noble Truths is, number one is that everything really is
suffering, the second one is that everything that, that suffering has come my
own bad thoughts, we call origin or source. The source of the suffering. It's
coming from my own bad thoughts and my own bad deeds, okay. The third
one is cessation, meaning it will stop in the future, you see it's going to stop, you
know it's going to stop and you know how long it will take, okay. For example,
you can, you can really truly see that in seven lives, which will be very pleasant
lives obviously I'll be comfortable physically as comfortable as a person can be in
this life, and I'll have good teachers and I'll be studying these books and I'll be a
monk and blah blah blah. Seven more lives, and then...

[student: You always gonna be a monk?            Can't you be married?] [laughs]
[laughter]

We'll talk about it. By the way...well anyway we’ll go over it. And then...

[student: [It’s not like [unclear] can be married without suffering so...] [laughter]

And the last one is the way, the way to do it. The path...

[student: What was the third one...]

Number three, number three is...

[student: The only way out is...]
Cessation.

[student: Cessation.]

The end. And number four is the path. These are the Four Noble Truths.

[student: What is the path?]

Two results and two causes. They go, they go result/cause, result/cause,
suffering and it’s cause, the end and its cause. We, you're going to study that in
the perfection of wisdom. That's a big subject, and it comes later. It's called
{danchi}. We're not going to do [laughs] that tonight. Okay, so {sol sur tak} is a
kind of cessation that comes from seeing the Four Nobel Truths, the Four Ayra
Truths. Okay. When did that have to happen?

[student: Right after the first time one perceives emptiness.]

Directly.

[student: On the way back down out of that experience, of experiencing
emptiness.]

Yeah, so it has to happen on which path of the five?

[student: Seeing.]

Seeing, which is what number?

[student: Three.]

[student: Two.]

[student: Three.]

[student: Three.]

Number three.

[student: Three.]
First we had {kal ak}, {kal ak} [unclear] gerneral accumulaition [unclear] second
we had separate and then third we had seeing. So are there ,any cessationtions
that happen on the first two paths?

[student: [It’s not a cessations to happen [unclear].]

Right, and I’m gonna give you one, they have one here in the text which I like,
which I think is a good one to bring up [unclear]. There’s an idea called {ge tza
che}, {ge tza che}. {Ge tza che} means “to cut your virtue roots,” to cut the roots
of your virtue.

[student: Do you want to do that? Sounds like a bad thing to do.]

No, it’s a, it’s a very evil thing. Okay. It’s a, there’s isn’t a big subject, it’s a long
subject, it’s, it’s like, how can you screw up to the ultimate, you know? [laughter]
Ho... how is it that you can actually...

[student: Royal.] [laughter]

You know, how is it that you can burn every little bit of goodness you have
inside you. Okay. And, and that’s a whole subject it’s called {ge tza che}, it’s
called “cutting the root of virtue”. The main cause is {lokta}, the main cause is, is
really believing in wrong views. And the, and one of the worst wrong views is:
”oh there’s no such thing as karma, there’s no such thing as morality, I can do
what I want as long as no one catches me, as long as no one ever finds out, I can
do what I want, you know, that’s okay”.

[student: There is no Santa Claus?]

That’s [laughs], that’s a wrong view, that, that is a very horrible wrong view. Or
to say: “there’s no enlightenment, there’s no way out of this suffering, might as
well shoot myself,” that’s a wro...very bad wrong view. Those wrong views
have the ability to cut your virtue roots, they have the ability to burn and to
waste whatever goodness you have inside you.

[student: Don’t most people think those things most of the time?]

Yeah, to hold them strongly and with, and here he says with anger also, I mean
some kind of violent belief that these things are, you know Mao Tze Tong said
“religion is...” he said [laughs] some bad things there, but you know that’s a,
that’s probably a {ge tza chen}, that probably qualifies. Out of anger and out of
those wrong views, to, to burn those roots of virtue inside you it can not happen
after a certain step of the second path, okay. By, by having renunciation, by
understanding emptiness intellectually there comes a time in the second path
when you will never again think those things and burn that virtue. It’s
impossible so you achieve a...?

[student: Cessation.]

Cessation for that. That’s a cessation, which does not depend on...

[student: Seeing emptiness.]

[student: Direct perception of emptiness?]

No, {sol sur}.

[student: What what about that?]

[student: The Four Noble Truths.]

Of seeing those Four Noble Truths one by on, because you just saw emptiness
directly.

[student: So the second path is the preparation?]

Yeah, okay yeah. So there’s a point on the path of preparation where it’s
impossible for you ever again burn that virtue inside you,and by the way,
there’s a point on the path of preparation where you no longer take a lower
birth.

[student: We can no longer...]

You achieve a cessation for a lower birth. You can never again go to a lower
birth. After you’ve reached that point you will never again go to a lower birth.

[student: So you’ll never ag..., you’ll get a cessation of that destroying great vast
amounts of virtue?]

We call it {ge}...
[student: [unclear] some but not like a big forest fire?]

Yeah, you can’t, you can’t destroy your, your fundamental           goodness within
you.

[student: Like root...]

Except for those two, yeah okay.

[student: This sounds like something’s cutting roots of your virtue in this way, it,
such a, sounds so sort of violent and all encompassing.]

Yeah it is.

[student: But then...]

It’s very, very evil thing.

[student: Presumably, presumably we all snip away here and there...]

No, no that’s not it [laughter], {ge tza che} means to totally reject goodness...

[student: I understand that.]

You know, it’s like a Hilter [unclear] type of thought you know. There there’s
no reason to be moral. If you...Very bad thing, you know, they may do it in their
own little way, you know but they, but almost every human being alive
understands that it’s wrong to hurt people. We’re talking about people who
don’t have that, we’re talking about people who say, you know, “you can do
what ever you want. One life to live. There’s no such thing as god’s retribution
or karma or what ever you want to call it, and and I can do what I want”. And
you see extreme cases like that. That’s {ge tza che} okay.

[student: That’s the specific definition of physcopath.] [laughs] [laughter]

[student: [unclear]]

[student: According to [unclear].]
[student: Satinist, satinist...]

[student: Yeah someone like that who has absolutely no reference as far as
[unclear]or ethics morality.]

Right, so when you reach that point...

[student: Ethics [unclear].]

Where you can no longer ever, ever have that, that’s a cessation, but it’s not a
{sol sur tak}. We call it {sol sor tak min}, what done {min} mean? {Mine}.

[student: Smaller?]

A non, a non individual analytica...anaylsis cessation, [laughs] okay, all right. So
there are two kinds of cessations you can have; one is a result basically of seeing
emptiness directly and the happen of the fourth, third, fourth and fifth paths,
third and fourth really.

[student: Third and forth?]

Yeah, and then the other kinds of cessations are cessations you get from some
kind of Dharma understanding some things, and you can have those before you
reach the perception of emptiness. We’re talking heavy duty, now we get back
to the point. Nirvana has to come from the first kind of cessation. Nirvana is the
first kind of cessation. Nirvana can only happen if you see what?

[student: Emptiness.]

Emptiness directly, and then you see the Four Noble Truths, the Four Ayra
Truths please. Okay, all right, so that’s the the final part of the definition. Now
you have the whole definition of nirvana.

[student: Are you saying that emptiness is...once you perceive emptiness directly
you reach nirvana, or you...]

No, no...

[student: Or one of the requirement for nirvana?]
Yeah, it, nirvana is a cessation which much occur, which must be brought on by a
perception of emptiness directly. It’s an ending of something nasty in your
mental stream, but that ending has to be through this incredible power of seeing
emptiness directly.

[student: But through seeing emptiness directly and something else.]

Right, practicing a lot. [laughter] That’s what the fourth path is all about, that’s
why they call it, what?

[student: Habituation.]

Habituation, you’re getting used to what you saw, and, and you keep thinking
and the whole path of habituation has like these twelve, eighteen, twenty levels
of... you know first you get rid of your gross anger, then you get rid of your
more subtle anger and then you get rid of, they have nine divisions. There’s the
subtle, there’s the gross gross angle, miggle, middle gross angle, anger, and
subtle gross anger. Then you get to the little middle anger, the middle middle
anger and the, I’m sorry, gross middle anger, middle middle anger, subtle
middle anger. And then you through all these you, you’re basically chipping
away at anger with this incredible thing that you’ve seen, until finally at the end
you reach this {gompa}. You can’t have that anger any more.

[student: Can you give us the whole thing now?]

[laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughter] It’s in the text [unclear]. But it’s a cessation,
which is, which come from, I called it in the translation “the individual analysis,”
and now you know what I’m talking about. “The individual analysis,” means
seeing the Four Noble Truths one by one, as a result of seeing emptiness
directly, okay. So it’s a cessation which come from that individual analysis. You
could think of it as seeing emptiness directly and the Four No..Ayra Truths okay.
And which consists of eliminating entirely the mental affliction obstacle from
your mental stream. So basically nirvana means the day when you don’t have
any more bad thoughts and you don’t even have any more seeds for bad
thought because you’ve seen emptiness directly.

[student: But I thought you only get to the point where you don’t have any
more seeds when your a Buddha.]

Right.
[student: And then you could attain nirvana without being a Buddha.]



Oh no, no. Yeah, it’s, it’s a you can attain nirvana without being a Buddha. Just,
you can reach without being a Buddha. You can destroy all the bad thoughts
and all the seeds for the bad thoughts without being a Buddha.

[student: Without having bodhicitta?]

Right.

[student: Oh that’s...]

[student: Oh.]

[student: Oh.][laughter]

[student:

[student: The same nirvana? The exact same nirvana that a {Mahayana}...?]

No, no.

[student: No?]

But, but from the point of view of removing those bad thoughts, yes.

[student: So, so if you remove the bad, all the bad thoughts...]

And their seeds.

[student: And you had...and their seeds, and you had bodhichitta...]

If you had love soaking your mind those, the, the, those two desires for
Buddhahood, to help people, yeah you’d be a Buddha [unclear].      Yeah,
Mahayana nirvana and Buddhahood are the same thing.

[student: Oh, okay.]
So they don’t call it nirvana, but they might as well. Okay.

[student: Okay.]

Yeah, by the way {tarpa}, “freedom,” is a synonym for {nybe ne}. Okay.
{Moskak}...

[student: What?]

Freedom, liberation and, and nirvana are all the same thing. They, they’re, the
word is the same, the meaning is the same.

[student: Aren’t they the same [unclear]]

[student: And also liberation?]

Yeah, you say {tharpa}. [unclear] from [laughter]. And it, that was {tharpa}, and
it means freedom. And it’s a, it’s a synonym for nirvana. Yeah.

[student: Going back to {bak cha}s, I’m going to try to understand that for a
minute.]

It’s a difficult subject, and we’ll study it...

[student: Just let me see if I’ve got the idea of {nung drup}. So you have a mental
affliction, you have a the obstacle of a mental affliction...

Right.

[student: And responding to that mental affliction getting pissed off or what
ever, you know, creates the predisposition to behave that way again.

[student: {Bak chak}.]

[student: Right, if you have this mental affliction and you don’t respond by
getting angry, then you don’t generate the {bak}, {bak chak}.]

Beautiful. Now let me take you one more step, and what is it that makes you
not respond?
[student: It’s the understanding of emptiness and karma.]

Reason, just plain knowledge, just plain understanding. You’re, you’re
understanding of the process has to overcome your natural instincts. It’s very
difficult.

[student: So a mental affliction doesn’t automatically generate a {bak chak}?]



No...yeah [laughs], if you let it go.

[student: No, but if you let it, but it’s not...]

Yeah, yeah but..

[student: But it doesn’t have to.]

If you can stop it...

[student: Yeah.]

It won’t it won’t plant a very good {bak chak}, it’ll plant a very wimpy {bak
chak}. [laughter]

[student: But what do you call what’s there?]

Excuse me?

[student: Would you call {bak chak} what’s there as potential, even if it’s not
actualized?]

Right.

[student: Long before you ever...]

Yeah, and a lot of...

[student: Perceive emptiness directly.]

Yeah, a lot of the practice of doing death...
[student: Meditation?]

Of going through death the right way. A lot of that involves not activating {bak
chak}s.

[student: Supressing?]

Yeah, they’re there, but not giving them, they’re called, it’s called “not pouring
the waters of emo..emo..bad emotions on top of that {bak chak}”. The {bak
chak}s are there as you die, but if you’re able to control your mind as as you die
they don’t get watered and then they die in their, in their state as a seed. They
don’t have anything to trigger them.          They, the tenth link of dependent
origination which we call {jupa sipa}, which is badly mangled in translation, by
the way [laughs] it’s the process of activating the seeds. It’s a kind of karma, and
we’ll study that, we’ll study the twelve links.

[student: Now those {bak chak}s don’t die they go to your next rebirth with you
right?]

They, they...

[student: Good question.]

They never get triggered.

[student: But they’re still there.]

They’re still there.

[student: In your next rebirth.]

Uh...

[student: Uh... ][laughter]

You don’t take a rebirth.

[student: Oh, you said...good point, but for us.]
Yeah, yeah.

[student: But for us?]

Yeah, you don’t take a normal rebirth. Yeah, those {bak chak}s don’t, aren’t able
to produce a body and a mind like us.

[student: Right, right they’re still floating around until they get destroyed.]

There’s, I don’t know if there’s a mental stream for them to be in.

[student: We talked about this high level, but I mean for us, we take a rebirth
in...]

Yeah.

[student: So we’ve carried them with us time and again until we get to the time
when we can die without watering them. You, you make it sound like when we
can die without anger, without fear, without what do you...]

Partly that, yeah, yeah.     Mainly those two wanting something or hating
something. But that’s a...I’m not going to get into that. That’s not a method,
we’d rather do it before that [laughs]. Okay, you can achieve nirvana tonight
and you will look the same to everyone tomorrow. I mean nirvana does not
require death. Okay.

[student: So how does it...]

Nothing to do right? Nothing in the definition that would suggest that you have
to die. It’s just when you eliminate through understand...through knowledge
when you eliminate that, that habit and the, the seeds for it. Then you achieve,
you can acheive nirvana and you [unclear] walk around like John Stillwell, the
same okay.

[student: So, so if you experience nirvana and your not, you appear the same,
how are you substantially changed? You have, you know all this bliss I would
assume.]

We’re gonna...
[student: You’re in all this bliss.]

We’re gonna discuss it after the break. Seriously, we’re going to discuss it after
the break.

[student: But first some blissful cookies.] [laughter]

[student: You say cessation, you don’t say all cessation in the definition, so
couldn’t that mean that you stop anger but you still have desire or...?]

No, we did say entire, entirely, in their entirety.

[student: Also, it’s kind of, what is it; “all cessations in their entirety”?]

No, no, it’s a cessation of all you bad thoughts.

[student: Oh, it’s a ...]

Don’t forget, cessation means, just an ending.

[student: A cessation of...?]

Of all you bad thoughts and all the seeds.

[student: But, but what’s it? I want to write down the right thing, a cessation
of...?]

You can say a cessation in which all your bad thoughts and all of their seeds have
been eliminated from the, the stream of your mind. And then there’s one more
element of that. What, what, what are we missing when I say it that way? A
cessation where all the bad thoughts and their seeds have been eliminated from
your mind.

[student: From the individual analysis.]

Because, you’ve perceived emptiness and the Four Ayra Truths. You’ve got to
talk about what was the, the gun that, that shot them, all right, it’s called {ngem
po ngok ten}. What is the atom bomb that has the power to stop them
permanently? Is, is, there’s only one and it’s it’s the perception of emptiness
directly. And in fact, the proof that samsara has an end... does it have a
beginning?

[student: No.]

It has no beginning. The proof that it has an end is that perceiving emptiness is
such a powerful gun, you know [laughs] that’s the proof for the end of samsara.

[student: You mean like a debating proof?]

Yeah, when you debate the end of samsara. Does it have a beginning? (clap) No.
Does it have an end? (clap) Yes. {Ka rin}. (clap) {Kopa kin}. (clap) Yeah, {dop ten
ngon ne cha}.

[student: It has no beginning, but it has an end?]

Absolutely. [laughter]

[student: Just because something has a potential [unclear] doesn’t mean that it
does.]

[laughs] If it didn’t, you shouldn’t come to this class. [laughs] [laughter] Okay,
yeah, have a break. Go, go, go.

         ******

Next actually they do a definition.

[student: Analyze it?]

No after you define it what do you do next?

[student: You prove it.]

[student: You pick it apart.]

We did that already, right, we did each part of the definition. So what then you
go onto the divisions and that’s normal, pretty normal. The types, how many
types of nirvana are there?

[student: Two?]
[student: Three?]

There’s five. [laughter]

[student: There’s, there’s one... five different kinds of...]

I’m sorry there’s four, four, four, four.

[student: Nirvana.]

[student: Oh.]

[student: Oh.]

There’s actually there’s more, there’s like six or seven, but we’re gonna stick to
the four.

[student: I’m sorry, could you repeat what the {rang shen}, what it means please]

{Rang shen} means means “natural,” nature. So this is natural nirvana.

[student: This is nirvana number one of four?]

Yes.

[student: Basic four?]

[student: Five, wasn’t it five?]

[student: It changed?]

Four. I’m sorry, I should not have said five, it’s, it’s four. There are more, but,
but we’re gonna stick to four right now.

[student: Geeze.]

[student: What’s the {mayata} again, huh?]

All of those first course students know what this is.
[student: I think that’s a [unclear].]

[laughs] Say {dung dam} [repeat], {tempa} [repeat], {dung dam} [repeat],
{tempa} [repeat]. {Dung dam} means “ultimate”. {Tempa} means “truth”.

[student: You pronounce the “p” like a “b”?]

It’s not a “p” or a “b”.

[student: Neither?]

No, we don’t have it in English, we don’t have it [unclear] and and scholars who
don’t know Tibetan very well fight over whether it’s a “p” or a “b”. It’s neither
one [laughs] and that’s why they fight [laughs]. Okay, {Dung dam tempa}.
{Dung dam}: “ultimate truth”. Ultimate truth is half of existence, what is the
other half?

[student: [unclear] truth.]

Yeah, okay, we call it what?

[student: [unclear].]

[student: Deceptive truth.]

We call it deceptive truth, or apparent truth, maybe we’ll call it deceptive truth.
So, everything is either ultimate truth or deceptive truth. Okay, what’s this pen?

[student: I don’t want this...]

[student: It’s ultimate truth being perceived right now by us as deceptive truth.]

No, it’s not.

[student: Deceptive truth?]

It’s deceptive truth [unclear] okay.

[student: There is no ultimate truth...]
[student: Because it has no, it’s not self existent.]

It’s not, it is not ultimate truth...

[student: Because it’s...]

And It’s ultimate truth on any level to anyone.

[student: But it’s..]

[student: And there’s no ultimate truth to it.]

[student: But it has emptiness...]

It has ultimate truth. It is not ultimate truth. Do you Kyli have a coat?

[student Kyli: Yes absolutely.]

Are you a coat? [laughter]

[student: Kyli: Do I, am I a coat?]

It’s the same thing. No, [I mean this is?] si...silly. It, it has ultimate reality but it’s
not ultimate reality. You’re not a coat, you have a coat, [there’s a ?] difference.
This is deceptive reality, why?

[student: ‘Cause it’s composed of parts.]

[unclear]

[student: It’s not a reason.]

Then emptiness is like...

[student: Is it, how karma makes a seed?]

[student: I don’t know]

Emptiness is not composed of parts. (clap)
[student: Is emptiness composed of parts?]

[student: No.]

Of course it is. There’s yesterday’s emptiness, today’s emptiness [unclear].
Anyway, that’s an old debate [unclear]. But it’s, it’s a, it’s, it’s deceptive reality.
Why? Come on?

[student: Because it’s being perceive by...]

Because to a normal mind, okay, meaning a messed up mind [laughs], it looks as
though it’s self existent and it’s not.

[student: I think it should [unclear] you know?]

Right, you you, your mind, there’s a part of your mind and if I ask you where
did this pen come from, or how did this pen come to be, you always have the
wrong answer. [laughs] Okay, to a to a normal, okay, that’s why, that’s why this
is, that’s why this is deceptive reality. It’s nature is to fool you. It’s it’s actually
not it’s nature, the nature of a normal mind is to be fooled by this pen. Okay,
what’sth opp...what’s the other kind of reality?

[student: {kon son linpa}]

{Dung dam yempa}: “ultimate reality”. Okay. The word ”truth” in this case, you
have to realize and you should always remember, doesn’t mean...

[student: True.]

Truth, it doesn’t mean a true fact. It’s, in this case the word, the word “truth” is a
is a word for reality. It doesn’t mean truth, it doesn’t mean the fact that this is
not a lie and this is the truth, it doesn’t mean that at all. Why? Can you divide
truth into deceptive truth and and [laughs] real truth, ultimate truth. Not at all.
Deceptive truth is a lie by nature. Okay, you don’t divide truth into lies and
tru...real truth. [laughs] Okay. It’s not, it’s not truth. What they call “ultimate
truth” and what do they call it...relative truth, which I don’t like that term
actually, I don’t even know where they got it actually.

[student: Conventional, I think conventional is better.]
You can call it conventional, but the word in Tibetan and in Sanskrit, it is is
deceptive, you know, and that’s the point. It’s not that it’s conventional, well it’s,
it happens to be conventional, but that’s not the point, the point is that it fools
you. It’s bogus.

[student: And there’s nothing that that gets across the idea that that there is...it is
a con...convention?]

It is a kind of...

[student: In the sense that it has to be, it has to ...]

No, not in the word...

[student: Certain conditions...

Yeah, no...

[student: in our...]

No, and nothing to do with relativity in the word itself. No, nothing. There is
no, even flavor of that in the word. You know, it, it’s all explained all over
scriptures as this is why it fools you, this is why it fakes you, this is why it seems
to be one thing, this is why it’s deceptive, this is why it’s bogus. There’s nothing
about, you know, it happens to be true, they’re all all bogus realities is relative
and all bogus realities...what was the other word?

[student: Conventional.]

Conventional, but that’s not what the word means.

[student: But then what do you, what do you say when you’re talking about the
appearance of...you know the..]

What appears to us.

[student: The str...the rope, the piece of rope that appears to be a snake.]

They, sometimes, they call it “nominal,” “nominal reality” or “conceptual
reality” or something like that. But anyway understand that, that natural nirvana
means “ultimate reality,” that’s natural nirvana.

[student: Natural nirvana.]

Yeah, why do you think it’s natural? Why do you think ultimate truth should be
natural?

[student: ‘Cause it’s innate.]

[laughs] What does natural mean to you? What’s the opposite of natural?

[student: Unnatural.]

Artificial, right?

[student: Fake.]

Artificial. Natural means that something has had this quality forever and ever.
In Tibetan you say {dum ane}, it mean from the beginning of time it had this
quality, that’s what natural means. Nobody made it, nobody put it there,
nobody fixed it later, for time and all beginning it has had this nature. And that’s
what natural means.

[student: So it seems that’s there’s only, we have broken it down to two, but
now it seems to be just one?]

No, by the way, we’re only on number one. This, what I’m saying is that this
equals this. This equals this...

[student: Huh?]

And we’re on nirvana number one, okay we haven’t reach any other kind of
nirvana yet. What I’m saying is that natural nirvana is defined as ultimate
reality. What is natural nirvana? Ultimate reality. What is natural nirvana?

[student: Ultimate reality.]

{Tom ame}. What’s {tom ame}?
[student: Emptiness?]

Emptiness. So does every object have natural nirvana?

[student: Yes.]

Yeah. Okay, that’s why they call it natural.

[student: Including the pen you were just holding now?]

Yeap.

[student: Ah.]

[student: [unclear]]

[student: Gotcha.]

Huh?

[student: Mine or [all of us?].]

Yeah, good, good question. I like it, see, now you’re starting to break down the
thing. Yeah, we all understand the natural, I mean every object in the universe
has been for, for as long it exists and as long as it shall exist it it it does not have
any self nature and that’s it’s emptiness. But how is this, how is the emptiness of
this pen, how is the true nature of this pen nirvana? What’s the definition of
nirvana?

[student: Cessation of bad thoughts.]

Stopping bad thoughts and their seeds in your mind stream and did the pen do
that?

[student: It doesn’t have a mind stream.]

No, okay, good, good answer. Okay, so {rang she nang de} is not...

[student: Mental.]
Natural nirvana is not...

[student: Samsara’s...]

Nirvana, [laughs] okay. All right, we had this before. We divided things
[laughter] in name only, okay. This thing got the name natural nirvana, but it
ain’t a nirvana, okay. Bod...sugarcane bodhicitta is...

[student: Not.]

Not bodhicitta, okay. We had some other divisions like that. What were those?
Oh, five monks is not...



[student: Form.]

[student: Sangha.]

The Sangha Jewel, okay. These books are not...

[student: Dharma.]

The Dharma, but you can...and and these books are not {paramarimita}, but they
can be called the perfection of wisdom. We say {deg de pe derge} in Tibetan, “in
name only”, okay. Just nominally you could call this nirvana, but it’s not
nirvana. Now I’ll give you an interesting question [laughs], this is not on your
homework, this is something to think about, okay. Could, could anything be
this kind of nirvana and also be the other kind of nirvana.

[student: What’s the other kind?]

[student: Yeah, what the other...]

The one that we defined before, that ending of bad thoughts in somebody’s
mind stream. Is there anything which is natural nirvana and also the ending of
bad thoughts in somebody’s mind stream permanently?

[student: Your Buddha nature?]

Close, yeah, very very close, yeah the dharma body of of a Buddha.       It is a
cessation and [unclear] one of the parts of his body is is a cessation and is
emptiness also.

[student: It’s the emptiness of the mind of of...

Yeah.

[student: The emptiness of mind of somebody who has seen emptiness.]

Yeah, and there’s a bitter debate about it. I mean... but anyway, basically this is
{swatika tranke}.

[student: [unclear] This is, this is, this emptiness...]

Yeah.

[student: Natural nirvana, is a component or a subset of the full nirvana
definition.]

No it’s not.

[student: Sure it’s emptiness.]

Like every other object nirvana has its emptiness, and so in that sense nirvana
has its natural nirvana.

[student: Right, that’s true.]

But it’s not, it’s, but it’s not in the definition anywhere.

[student: Well in, they haven’t perceived emptiness.]

Oh, yeah, okay that’s implied, it’s not stated, yeah.

[student: So, so why are you saying this is one of the four types of nirvana, if it’s
not nirvana?]

{De de derge}, “in name only”.

[student: In name only.]
We just want you to hear all the things that are called nirvana.

[student: So maybe we should like have a different name instead of saying four
types of nirvana.] [laughter]

[student: Yeah, this is not really a a a type of nirvana.]

You can say; nominally four types of nirvana, and that’s exactly what the text
says when you read it at home you’ll see, you’ll see that it says...

[student: Are we, is the words different in Tibetan?         Is there something to
distinguish?]

Yeah, they say before they give this before, they say; “there are four types of
nirvana,” they say; “in name only there are four types of nirvana”.

[student: This is getting far field, like we’re doing four types of nirvana but it’s
not really nirvana, it’s [unclear]...]

Right.

[student: But here’s like four cans...four oranges but they’re not really oranges,
so it’s, let’s have pine..apples for lunch.]

[laughs] Well, what if I say it this way; here are four things that all throughout
the scriptures are called nirvana. Okay, so you better know them ‘cause when
you bump into natural nirvana, and you’re gonna, your student is gonna say,
“hey John, what’s natural nirvana?” You’ll say, “well mmm.. let’s see, not
mental, I don’t know if it’s mental, I don’t know...” [laughts] [laughter] Okay so
you gotta, it’s just learning the four things that are called nirvana. Okay, and this
one is not nirvana, okay. This is..[laughter]

[student: Never be able to use the word nirvana again on your homework again,
[unclear] lose points.]

[student: Sugarcane.]

[student: How are [unclear] nirvana [unclear] natural nirvana...]
No. It’s not a cessation.

[student: It’s like {sor tantrica} is really messed up right? Is that what...]

No, no, no don’t ever think that. Don’t ever say that...

[student: Oh I’m sorry]

Yeah. We could be, if we could really be a {sor tantrica}, we we probably
wouldn’t be here. Okay, so that’s {rang sen damde}. Okay, what time is it?

[student: Well not really time at all.] [laughter]

[student: It’s nominally ten o’clock.] [laughter]

We have a problem-maker in the room.

[student: We’re finished?]

That’s it, I’m I’m saving the other three for next week because I’ll [unclear] I’ll
tell you what they are. Okay, there’s...you don’t write it down, don’t write it
down, this is a pre pre pr... what do they call it in the movie theater?

[student: Sneak preview.]

[student: Sneak preview.]

This has been approved for all audiences.        One is nirvana with nothing,
wi...nirvana with something left, what do you, don’t write it...

[student: Remainder.]

They call it remainder, and I don’t like that. Nirvana with something left over,
what do you think it is?

[student: The nirvana ...]

No, it’s somebody who...

[student: Excess [unclear]] [laughter]
No, you still have some, you have some suffering in a sense, you’re still left with
it. You know, if you achieve nirvana tonight as we described it, are you free of
all suffering? No, you still got a body that’s gonna get sick and die and all that
stuff. That’s that’s with something left over. And then when you give up this
body you you got nirvana with nothing leftover and then there’s nirvana with,
you know, which is even slightly different. Okay.

[student: [unclear] ]

And those are going to be the other three kinds. Yes, okay.

[prayer: short mandala]

[prayer: dedication]




The Asian Classics Institute