ACI 15 «Что на самом деле имел в виду Будда», занятие 11

Class 11 - Review
Transcribed by: Karen Becker

By the way, the thing that was just up here, on the board,
was...we had a goal at the disco party that was a complete flop
last Friday (laughter), of...I told Pelma "you can't get these
people to dance", and she said, "yes, I can", and she didn't.
But anyway the goal was to raise six hundred dollars to
paint...repaint the children's school, and we had that by the
beginning of class on Friday and then about half way through
class we had enough to throw in an electrical generator for
(unclear) House, which they asked us for, and then by the end of
the night we have enough to...they asked us to sponsor to bring
to to like sponsor an expedition to Tibet to expedite peoples
escape from Tibet, and we were able to pay for that also. So,
thank you for that. That...so that was a joke, what she put
on...she called it "the disco bummer". But as a fund
raiser...they asked us for three things last time we went and
just automatically we covered all three...to the...exactly, to
the dollar or something like that...it was really weird, so
thanks for that. Tonight is a review class and I think you
should all try to take the final. I won't tell you how many
people took the Lojong final (laughter), I mean how many person
took the Lojong final (laughter), but (laughs), please take it,
okay. I mean, come on, this is easy, all right, I mean, it's a
question of whether you get a ninety-nine or a ninety-eight, you
know, come on. It's not to test what you don't know, it's just
to remind you what you do know, okay? I mean, I don't care, I'm
not trying to trick you...I'm actually gonna give you the all the
questions right now, okay, and I just want you to...this is the
stuff that a Geshe still remembers two years later (laughter)
okay? So, this is the stuff you really should remember, okay.
This is the stuff you should carry with you to the rest, for the
rest of your life, you see what I mean? I mean, that kind of
stuff you should be able to answer for the rest of the time,
okay. So I really want you to be able to remember these things,
okay. Most difficult question, you know...what book did you
study for (drang nge), okay, (drang nge) meaning (drang) meaning
"things that the Buddha said that you have to interpret" and
(nge) meaning "things that the Buddha said that you don't have to
interpret"...figurative and literal, okay. They say something
like "interpretive"...I've never seen that word anywhere else, I
think it's a dumb word (laughter), it's "literal" and
"figurative". Okay. Something like that. And the book is
called, in English, (b: The Essence of Eloquence on the Art of
Interpretation)...if you're gonna do the Tibetan track, it's
(Drang Nge Lekshe Nyingpo), okay, (Drang Nge Lekshe Nyingpo).
And it was written by?

(students: Je Tsongkapa)

Je Tsongkapa, okay, and you have to give his dates, 1357 to 1419.
 Okay? This is that famous embarrassing question...you meet the
Dalai Lama's teacher and he asks you what are you studying, and
your teacher is standing next to him, and (laughter) trying to
tell you...this happened to me. Okay. Secondly, the question
says, "Nowdays some people say that a knowledge of emptiness is
not the main point of Buddhism. And others say that emptiness is
only something that you know intuitively and not from a
foundation of determined, organized study. Destr...describe a
quotation by Lord Buddha himself that disproves these ideas."
And then, it's the (b: Sutra Requested by Rashtrapala), okay, and
it says, quote, "Beings must wander here in the realm of death
and suffering because they have no knowledge of the ways of
emptiness" and "those who have compassion", meaning the
Buddhas...and these are all quotations, right?..."use skillful
means and millions of different reasonings to bring them to it".
So there's this debate in the monastery...is it one million or
two million or countless arguments that the Buddha said you have
to study before you can understand emptiness...you see what I
mean? (Rikpa ta ye ba) means, you know, "a limitless number of
arguments" and then there's a debate in the monastery...is that
one million, two million, three million, you know...but, the
point is, you have to study a lot. And and that...all the
scriptures say the same thing. (Tu jung gyi she rab, sum jung
gyi she rab, gom jung gyi sher rab)...you develop knowledge in
three stages: one is by hearing the teachings at the foot of a
qualified master. Second one, you go home and think about it
logically. And then thirdly, you have all these mystical
experiences, but you don't get the third one without the first
two, and His Holiness...I was very gratified to hear him in
Washington, D.C., he said...somebody said, "can I meditate on one-
pointed, you know, concentrated on emptiness?", and he said,
"no", study, study, study", (laughter), and then he, you know,
and then he said that, that...and then he went on to describe how
important to to have a foundation in in in in a Buddhist
education, formal Buddhist education. Then you go home and think
about it, contemplate it, think about it at home, and then go
into these deep meditative states and see those things directly,
but you ca...it's impossible to get to the third without the
first two. And that's what the Buddha said. By the way, the
words there...when it said, "those with compassion use skillful
means, (tap tsul), that's the whole basis of what we're studying,
(drang nge). (Tap tsul) means "sneaky ways of getting students
to understand something", you know? And this is...if you know
Nas Rudeem in the Sufi pre...tradition (laughter) you know, he
figures out a guy is attached to his house and he's invited to
his the person's house, so what does he do? He sets it on fire
and leaves. (laughs) Okay? You know. Meaning, skillful means
to prevent attachment, you know, he's being kind to this guy. He
knows the guy's attached to his house, so he sets a big fire and
he leaves, you know (laughs)...not quite like that (laughter)
but, skillful means meaning...meaning what? Vai...Vaibaishika,
Sautrantika, and and Mind Only Schools, you know, being in in our
discussion, in this context, things that were not exactly
accurate but that Lord Buddha taught as a skillful means to get
people up one more step on the spiritual ladder. Okay. And
we'll talk more about that later. I think there's two main
points to the study of (drang nge). One is, obviously, to
understand emptiness 'cause all the questions revolve around
emptiness. Secondly, to learn to be more, how do you say,
accepting of other peoples' viewpoints, because you never know if
they're not some enlightened being who's trying to move a certain
percentage of people up a little bit higher. Okay. You don't
know. If the Buddha could masquerade as a Abhidharmist to get
people up higher and teach things that are ridiculous, like
partless atoms, to help people, to get them to move on
farther...things that are clearly non-existent, things that are
clearly not defensible, but Lord Buddha could seriously teach it
with a straight face to people in order to help them and get them
to move up farther, then we have to be careful about judging
other spiritual traditions and things like that, okay? Are they
wrong? Yes. Are they unhelpful? Maybe not. You see, and and
and should you judge them...(nga dang nga da wa mayinba chen gyu
tsu tsowo me jya de (unclear), meaning, "yeah, you can judge them
if you're omniscient, okay? If you're not, then reserve
judgement", okay, like, "maybe this guy is somebody special, so I
won't judge him as a person, but I will, when the time comes and
it's appropriate, for a certain audience, attack him"...they say
(sengyi nrowo chen yin) means "with the roar of a lion, I will
rip this guy apart and his wrong ideas about emptiness, for
example, in public, when the time is right, and when it's
appropriate", but do I judge this person as being some kind of
bad person or crazy person...who knows, you know, if if Lord
Buddha could teach whole schools of thought that are not correct
for the benefit of others, then maybe we better be careful who we
judge, you know. Can we judge the viewpoint...yes. And at the
right time and in the appropriate circumstances, we should attack
it and prove it wrong. But but never judge the person and never
be completely sure why they're taking that position, okay. All
right. Number three. Why do learn...why do we have to learn to
distinguish between the literal and the figurative...why do we
have to learn to interpret what the Buddha said in order to find
out what he really meant? And the answer is this: you want to
learn the true meaning of emptiness, okay? Because Buddha taught
emptiness in three wildly differing ways during the Three
Turnings of the Wheel. According to the Mind Only School, how
did how did it happen? Oh, in the first turning of the wheel he
said things had more self-existence than they really do. In the
second turning of the wheel, he indicated that nothing had any
nature of its own or...and then in the third turning of the
wheel, he fudged it...he said, you know, half the time I was
speaking literally and half the time I was speaking figuratively,
and some things do exist by definition and some things don't.
Okay? That's the Mind Only take on it. Middle Way take on it?
When he said, things did exist by definition, he was just trying
to be helpful to people who couldn't get it. Then in the second
turning of the wheel when he said nothing existed by definition,
he was telling the truth. And in the third turning of the wheel,
to those people especially who came up to him and said, "did you
really mean it when you said that during the second turning of
the wheel?", he says, you know, knowing immediately that they
can't get it, or can't take it, he he starts to fudge it, "oh no,
I only meant it half the time", okay. Like that. So the main
reason to study when was he teaching figuratively and when was he
teaching literally, the main reason to discuss it is to
understand emptiness more clearly. And I think you got that
feeling in the last class we had, or the next to the last class,
seven different definitions of emptiness, okay. I mean,
hopefully, by the end of this class, you can knock them out, you
can say "oh, here's what this school believes, here what this
school believes, here whys...here's why that's wrong, here's why
that's wrong, here's why that's wrong, okay, and and somewhere in
there is your own belief about emptiness, and then and then you
can identify which one you are stuck on and move up to the to the
last one, and if Lord Buddha hadn't gone through teaching all
those wrong ways, you wouldn't been able to identify it. So
thank you, you know, it's a it's a skillful means. Number four.
How do we judge what the Buddha meant figuratively and what the
Buddha meant literally, and different schools have different ways
of judging it, right? So, if Lord Buddha came out and said, this
is how you know when I'm speaking figuratively, and this is how
you know when I'm speaking literally. Or if he comes out and
says, "I was speaking literally on that occasion and I wasn't
speaking literally on the other occasion", can you take him
literally?

(students: No)

The answer is no (laughs), okay...not even on that, okay? When
he comes out and say, "oh oh, I was just kidding, and that's what
I really meant". Can you take that literally?

(student: No)

No more than what he originally said, okay. In the end you must
use?

(students: (unclear))
Reasoning. Okay. It has to make sense to you, okay. In the end
what decides what's figurative and literal is what you yourself
figure out to be true, okay. Is your personal experience and
your personal knowledge, and your personally figuring out, and
Lord Buddha said that, he quotes Lord Buddha, who said...you
know, it's the example...I think that's the next
question...yeah...you know, three different tests to tell if
something is true or not, and and Lord Buddha goes through those,
okay...it's it's the example of the gold, testing gold, okay. So
you have to know that example. That example is one of the most
famous examples in Buddhism and you really should be able to to
rattle it off very quickly, okay? We'll go through them (laughs)
okay?

(student: (unclear))
Yeah, one is, you know, melt the gode, gold, check it out in the
fire. Secondly cut it with some snips, you know, see if there's
any copper inside or something like that, and then use a
touchstone...touchstone is like a...some kind of stone and you
rub it against, and and...this is in the gold business, you can
tell from the color of the mark that the gold leaves whether its
real or not, okay. Or what kind of karatage it is, okay...how
pure it is. And these three tests refer respectively to...first
one, the fire refers to checking with your own direct experience,
whether this matches your own direct experience of
things...whether that teaching matches your own direct
experience. The cutting is comparable to your own deductions,
okay. Does it match with what you can figure out on your own
deductively, okay. And thirdly, the touchstone is...does it
match what people have said who you can establish with your own
reasoning, are people who could not lie to you, okay? So that's
sort of a...people...you have to be sure about the third one,
okay? Does the third one mean that anything Lord Buddha said is
true? That's not the meaning of the touchstone. First you
establish that a particular person cannot lie and would not lie,
and then you establish...then you can go on to say that what they
said is accurate, but you don't just say, "oh, whatever he said
is accurate". Lord Buddha didn't want you to do that, that's why
he taught the example of the gold. So when you present the
example of the gold, you have to be very careful on number three.
 We're not saying that, you should, Lord Buddha said to be
believe Lord Buddha whenever Lord Buddha said something. Okay.
I mean, don't come out like that. It's, Lord Buddha said, "you
can believe what a person says only...on the condition that you
have established that they cannot be lying or they cannot be
wrong about that subject, and they would not claim to describe it
if they didn't know it correctly", okay? You gotta distinguish
between those two. How do you dis...how do you di...find out of
a person is someone who can't lie, and then there's all these
tests for that, okay, the main one being, the principle one, and
in my own experience, this is the one I like the best, is that
Lord Buddha has described suffering so eloquently and so
exhaustively that to me that's why I attracted to Buddhism in the
first place...you see what I mean? The the even the very bad
translations I was reading at the time, it was clear that Lord
Buddha had this position that the minute you start a
relationship, for example, the seeds for the destruction of that
relationship are already in it, you see what I mean, and...or the
or the minute you were born, your death is already part and
parcel with your body, and stuff like that...it just seemed to me
to be totally correct. A description of what I was experiencing
and what I could see in the world, so then you get a lot of faith
in in it when he gets to the description of how to get out of it,
you see what I mean? Because no one else has described the
situation correctly...at all, you know, nobody in...when I was
twenty years old...was describing the situation correctly. And
then I read that stuff, and you know, Lord Buddha describing
it...I'm like...he describes the problems so well, so perfectly,
that that then you get some faith in in his solution, okay. All
right. Number five.

(students: Number six)

Six? Well, number four had all that parts in it (laughs) okay.
Number five is...you you should know, if you claim to have
studied the Mind Only School, you better know the Three
Attributes or the Three Groups in to which they divide
everything, okay, which is...
(student: (Kuntaks))

Kuntaks...

(students: (Shen wangs))

(Shen wangs)

(students: (Yong drups))

And (yong drups). Okay. (Kun tak) meaning "things that you
construct mentally". Imagined things...whether they are real or
not...whether they correspond to something actual or not, okay?
So a (kun tak) that doesn't correspond to something real would be
imagining, yeah, a a flower that could grow in mid-air with no
water, no soil, no nothing, no nutrients, no fertilizer...some
people translate it as "sky flower"...I don't like the
translation much, you know. It means "a flower growing in mid-
air". That's the point of the example. And then and then an
imagination that does exist is Michael Roach or something like
that...Tashi, right...thinking the idea of somebody, okay. The
concept or the mental construct of a person, okay. What about
(shen wangs)? Things which are the mercy of others...(shen
wangs), okay? Meaning "any changing thing in the world", and
they...there's no discussion of whether they exist or not...they
don't ex...they do exist, okay? (Yong drup)...why is it called
(yong drup)? Why is it called "totality"?

(student: The (unclear) nature of other things.)

But why is the...why is emptiness in the Mind Only School called
totality? (Yong drup - yong se drup pa)...huh?

(student: (unclear))

Yeah, Geshe Thubten Rinchen said...we asked him, you know, we
said...what...you know, we're struggling with the English word to
translate it during the classes and he says (yong se drup pa)
means "the minute it comes out, the minute something exists, its
emptiness exists with it", you see what I mean? As soon as the
thing is there, it is not something self-existent, okay? And
then you could also say, it's covers everything...every object
has its own emptiness, so you can call "emptiness" "totality",
meaning it covers the totality of things, or you can say total in
the sense that the minute something pops into existence, it is
not self-existent, okay. Something like that. Okay. Number
six. Constructs are said to quote "lack any definitive nature,
or not exist by definition. Explain what it means in the Mind
Only School when they say that and then explain what it means in
the Middle Way School when they say that". Okay. Two totally
different things, okay. Any ideas of what it means to exist by
definition in the Mind Only School? Yeah.

(student: It's not made up only in the mind.)

Yeah. Okay. You didn't just make it up in your mind...it exists
from...didn't we say that it exists from its own side?

(students: Yes)

Through its own unique way of being, okay? (Rang mong ne druppa,
rang gyi tummo mo yin be druppa), okay...not something just made
up...therefore, how many of the three categories exist by
definition and how many don't?

(students: Two do and one doesn't)

Yeah, two exist by definition, which are changing things and
emptinness, totality, and then one of them doesn't exist by
definition because it's just made up in the mind...it's just
imagined...(kun taks), constructs, okay. Middle Way School, how
do they say, especially...when I say Middle Way in the questions
and when Je Tsongkapa says "Middle Way" in the Mind Only
presentation, he's mostly talking about higher Middle Way, okay,
Prasangika or Consequence School. Okay. And and what does he
say?

(student: Nothing exists by definition)

Nothing exists by definition but why?
(Ta ne da pe dak tsen way se way ma ne dey chu) okay? (Ta ne da
pe dak tsen way se way ma ne dey chu). When you look for the
thing that got the lable, the cylinder, before you put the label
on, you'll never find anything, okay? When you look for the
thing that got the label independent of the label, you'll you'll
never find anything, okay. The pen, okay, the pen before you
thought of the pen as the...the pen before you thought of the
cylinder as a pen. Okay. Is the pen the...this is the famous
Nagarjuna thing...I hate to make it less sexy or mystical, but
here goes, I'm gonna ruin it for you, okay. Is a thing any one
of its parts...is a car the tire of the car?

(students: No)

No. Is the car all of the parts of the car put
together...according to Nagarjuna?

(student: No)

You have to say "no". Okay. Is it neither one of its parts or
all of its parts together? No. Is it both its...the tire by
itself and all the parts put together?

(student: No)

No. And and the trick is that number two means, "independently;
by definition", meaning "before your karma has forced of you to
think of as car, because that's the final part, okay? If you
count that among the parts, is the car the sum of its parts?

(students: Yes)

Yes, okay, and that's all. It's just a trick question, okay?
It's not very sexy, okay. It's not like "mystical" or anything.
Maybe a little bit. Okay. Number seven. In explanations of the
process of making constructs that follow from the sutra
references we just mentioned, a distinction is made between the
dependent thing that is the object of the constructed state of
mind, the constructing state of mind itself, and the construct
that quote "lies behind them". Explain these three as they occur
in the example of the boy named Tashi. Okay. This is just
a...the boy named Tashi is a beautiful introduction to the Mind
Only School's belief about how constructs are created, okay...how
your reality is created around you. It's a really good example.
Some poor guy showed up last night at Sixth Street, named
Tashi...we all started giggling, you know what I mean
(laughter)...he wanted to know (laughs) "what's the problem"
(laughs), you know...okay? Took me like twenty minutes to
explain to him 'cause he wasn't...he never un...he never studied
Buddhism really, so...anyway (laughter)...here we go. A man and
his wife have a baby boy. About a day later, you know, they
choose the name Tashi for the boy. "Tashi the boy", quote, is a
construct that lies between the object it is applied to, which
means that lump of flesh, okay, with the four things sticking
out, and the constructing state of mind, which in this case is
is a metaphor, the metaphor is the father or the mother applying
the name to the boy, okay? So there's there there is an object
out here, there is a state of mind that's giving it a name, and
in this case it's the...the metaphor is the parents deciding on a
name, which is the constructing state of mind...and and the and
the basis for the construction, and then there's the construction
made up somewhere between them which is "Tashi the boy", okay?
"Tashi the boy". And if "Tashi the boy" was not a construct,
then the minute he popped out, what?

(students: Everybody would...)

Everybody, everybody who never met the parents and who never met
the parents should say "oh, 'Tashi the boy' has been born", okay?
 That's an example for how constructs are applied in the Mind
Only School. Okay. According to the Mind Only School. And they
say it's very difficult to get at the actual object. You're
always some sort of...you're always kind of...it veils...the
construct veils the actual object and you're never quite getting
through the veil and like that, okay. Okay. Number eight. The
sutra goes on to use the three expressions...eh, that's a long
story, anyway (laughter)...describe the inter lin...relation of
those three things, (kun taks, shen wangs, yong drup), which is
very cool. Okay. Just...I mean, you can describe them all with
each other. Okay. And it's very simple. Emptiness, meaning
(yong drup) consists of the fact that certain non-existent (kun
taks), meaning "wrong imagined ideas about the self-existence of
something", don't apply to (shen wangs). Okay. I'll say it
again.

(student: Thank you).

In English, okay. This is...this is the beauty of the Mind Only
School. This is the...this is the brilliant, core, one great
thing about the Mind Only School. Here it is. Emptiness, or you
can say (yong drup), totality...they would say "totality", right?
 Consists of the fact that certain wrong (kun taks) meaning
"mental ideas, constructs, imagined things", don't apply to (shen
wangs). Don't apply to (shen wangs). So for them, the emptiness
of this pen is the fact that...okay, so the emptiness meaning
(yong drup) right, there we got one covered already...the
emptiness of this pen is the fact that certain ideas that I might
have about the pen...like what in this school...two of them...two
forms of emptiness in this school...that girl is so good...nah,
you don't really know...okay. To them there's two...two self-
existent objects we're talking about here. One: A pen that be
could be called a pen by definition. A pen that could be the
object of the name pen by definition. Was forever that way, will
forever be that way, was that way naturally, of and in, in and of
itself. It deserves to be called pen, okay. Pen is the object
of the word pen by definition. That's a non-existent (kun tak).
Or, a pen is something that grows independent of the same karmic
seed that creates my visual awareness of the pen. That's another
complete lie according to the Mind Only School. And those two
lies are non-existent objects, and the lack of them is
emptiness...with regard to what? This (shen wang). So there you
got all...that's why Lord Buddha taught the three attributes of
the Mind Only School. Why? 'Cause it's such a cool way to
explain emptiness. One more time. The emptiness of the pen is
the fact that two wrong ideas about it, don't apply to it. In in
Mind Only terms...the (yong drup) of the pen is the fact two non-
existent (kun taks) don't apply to this pretty little (shen
wang), okay? All right. In English (laughs), the totality of
this pen is the fact that two non-existent concepts or constructs
about it don't apply to this changing object, or this dependent
thing, okay? That's all. Then you cover all three categories or
groups of the mind only system, and that's why Lord Buddha taught
the Mind Only School that way...and it's a nice way to get up to?

(student: Madyamika)
The Madyamika...which is just a little shade more subtle, right?
And we'll get to that, all right.

(student: Could you just repeat the (unclear) again?)

Yeah, I mean, basically, Mind Only School is concerned that you
might have two wrong ideas about this pen. What's the first one?
 That the pen could be the thing named the pen in and of itself,
by definition. Okay. Which is very close to? The Mind...the
Middle Way School. It's very it's very very close...it's it's
kind of a nice bridge to the Mind Onl...to the Middle Way School,
okay? Or, they could say, the second wrong idea would be to say,
that pen and....the the forces that brought about this pen, the
forced that have brought this pen into this room for me to look
at, and the forces that have brought me to be standing here and
having an eye and an eye consciousness that could perceive it
are totally unrelated, okay. And that's not true, okay? Certain
forces...it's not true that this pen wandered into this room and
I wandered into this room, and we just bumped into each other.
No such thing. A karmic event in the past happened. I was good
to somebody, or I was bad to somebody, depends on whether you're
hating this presentation tonight or enjoying it, okay? And then
it has created the...simultaneously it has brought about the pen
and it has brought about me to be here. Okay? That's all.
That's all. The day you met your boss was your fault (laughter),
(laughs), okay...put put in other terms, okay. So don't get mad
at him. All right. Number nine. Oooh...this is a long one,
okay? Name the three famous turnings of the wheel of the Dharma.
 Those three great convocations, and state, a) when were they
primarily taught; b) where were they primarily taught; primarily
is such a nice word in debating...(tsowor)...say (tso wor)
(repeat) (tso wor) (repeat)...it's the way to cover your rear end
in the debate ground (laughter) okay. There's always an
exception to everything. You never say "always". You say,
"mainly, or primarily", or, you know, and then you, you know, you
get out of a lot of problems in the debate ground. Okay. Their
basic subject matter...same thing, right? And e) what from the
point of view of the outcome of the exchange their view was on
whether things have their own nature or not. What is the outcome
of the exchange, by the way? You remember that the third turning
of the wheel was triggered by a bodhisattva, Yang Dak Pak, who
asked the Buddha a question. "Did you really mean it when you
said everything was empty?" Okay. And then, Lord Buddha starts
to clarify what he meant, according to the Mind Only School at
least...in the Middle Way School you'd say he was? Obfuscating
(laughs) what he meant, okay? (laughter) All right. You gotta
get used to that. But, you know, he was clarifying what he
meant. And then the Buddha, and then the Bodhisattva says, "I
get it. You didn't mean to say nothing had any definition of its
own, you meant to say (kun taks) don't have any definition of
their own, but the other two do...I get it". That's called the
"outcome of the exchange", okay. So from the point of the
outcome of the exchange, what was the view on whether things had
any nature of their own or not. Okay. Those are the questions
for each of the turning of the wheel. Why? Because we are in
the Mind Only School. We are wearing Mind Only hat for the first
eight classes of this course. Okay. Then just so you didn't go
away from the seven year course with a Mind Only hat on, we went
up to the Svatantrika system, and then we went up to the
Prasangika system, okay. Okay. First turning of the wheel of
Dharma. It's called, it's name is, "the Turning of the Wheel on
the Four Truths". Okay. It was taught in Waranasi, okay?
Varanasi. Okay. Near Sarnath...Sarnath near Varanasi. Okay.
Taught in Sarnath, near Varanasi. Disciples, those of the lower
way, and we're gonna get in to lower way later...it's not
a...we're not dissing Hinayana. In this discussion, in this
teaching, Hinayana means "those who hold certain primitive ideas
about emptiness", okay? Basic subject matter. And by the way,
it doesn't at all relate to country, okay. There could be people
in Burma, Sri Lanka who have quite sophisticated viewpoints about
emptiness, and there could be people in Tibet, who are lazy, and
have a very Hinayana idea about emptiness, okay? Or worse, all
right...oh those are in the West. Okay. Basic subject matter:
Four...the Four Truths. You're not gonna call them the Four?
(students: Noble Truths)

Noble Truths, please. Okay. Nothing noble about them.
Everything that Lo...Lord Buddha taught was "noble" (laughter.
Bad translation of Arya, okay, meaning "someone who has seen
emptiness directly". Okay. Viewpoint: Every existing thing
exists by?

(students: Definition)

Definition. Okay. Viewpoint according to whom?

(students: Mind Only)

Yeah. Viewpoint...especially according to the gu...to the
Bodhisattva who's just finished the exchange with Lord Buddha.
"I get it. I get it. During the first turning of the wheel you
said everything exists by definition." Okay. Second turning of
the wheel. Called: The Turning of the Wheel on How Nothing
Exists by Definition. (Tsen nyi mepay kin kor). (Chun kor),
sorry. Place: Taught at (Jagu Pungpoy Ri), okay in (gyal bu
kup), which is what?

(students: Vulture's Peak)

Vulture's Peak near Rajighira, okay. Disciples: (Tek chen).
Interesting question. I don't think I brough...went over it with
you. According to the Mind Only School, what kind of Mahayana
disciples?

(student: (unclear))

Were there Middle Way disciples sitting there? In...during the
second turning of the wheel? I mean you might say no, but they
say, there were, and they didn't take it to be literal. How's
that? I mean they would say that, okay?

(students: Mind Only)
Yeah, Mind Only School people would say that. Okay. They'd say,
"greater way? That's us". But but but aren't you the disciples
that Lord Buddha thought would would be more comfortable with the
presentation of saying "nothing exists by definition"? "Yeah,
because he knew we were so smart, we wouldn't take it literally."
 (laughter) Okay. I mean, there's a section where they get into
a fight like that. (laughter) You know, there's a section where
they say...'cause they're trying to say, there's a section that
says, "disciples during the second turning of the wheel were very
sharp" and they say, "yeah, that was us" (laughter) (laughs),
"and we didn't take him literally, even as he spoke", you
know...or something like that. Okay. There's a debate like
that. Okay. Basic subject matter?

(students: Emptiness)

Emptiness. (Tongpa nyi). Shunyata. Viewpoint according to the
Mind Only School?

(students: Nothing exists...)

Nothing exists by definition...which is a? (Kurn dep) or (dron
dok)?

(student: For whom...(kurn dep))

Good question...for whom? For the Mind Only School.

(student: (Kurn dep), meaning "you are totally dissing something
that really exists. You are really in trouble". You are really
expressing an extreme, nihilistic, wild, viewpoint. If nothing
exists by definition you have to be saying what?

(students: Nothing exists)

Nothing exists. Come on. Okay. Okay. To...for them, this is
like total nihilism, okay? To say that nothing exists by
definition. Third turning of the wheel. Called: The Turning of
the Wheel On?
(student: Fine distinctions)

Fine Distinctions. Distinctions between what?

(students: What's figurative and what's literal.)

Hey, this exists by definition, and this doesn't. Okay. "Oh, I
was just kidding", okay? This stuff does and this stuff doesn't,
and he makes a fine distinction, okay? Taught at: Vaishaili,
(Yangpachen), okay? Disciples? Quote, "those of all ways",
which we later corrected to?

(student: (unclear))

Huh?

(student: Physical)

What did "those of all ways" mean? We later corrected this...we
corrected it from a monastic text book. Do you remember? I
don't remember.

(students: (unclear) Somebody who understood it.)

No, it said, "those who (unclear) hear all the ways" but it was
something much more sophisticated.

(students: Those who understood...)

No.

(student: That didn't need the...isn't it those that didn't need
the fine distinctions)

No.

(students: It was for the (unclear)...who already understood..)

Good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It meant "people of the
higher way, because they would have necessarily already
understood the presentation of emptiness in the lower way". It
didn't mean...Mahayana and Hinayana people, okay? That was a
correction that I made after reading them up...the monastic
textbook. Okay. Meaning, al all those who have entered all the
ways, meaning, those of the higher way who have obviously already
understood the presentation of emptiness by the lower way, okay,
and in that sense have...it's made for people of all the ways,
okay. 'Cause it wouldn't make much sense otherwise, especially
from the Mind Only's point of view, if the third turning of the
wheel is for the most smart people, or something like that, okay?
 All right. Question number ten. Basically, which of the three
turnings of the wheel are literal and figurative according to the
Mind Only School, and then which of the three turning of the
wheels are literal or figurative according to the Middle Way
School? Mind Only School. Is the first turning of the wheel
literal?

(students: (No)

No. Why not? It's not true that?

(students: All things exist...)

Everything exists by definition. Is the second turning of the
wheel literal, Mind Only School?

(students: No)

No. Because it's not true that nothing?

(students: Exists by definition)

Exists by definition. Is the third turning of the wheel literal?

(students: Yes)

Yes, because it is true that some things are and some things
aren't. That's all. Easy. Now what about Middle Way School?

(students: Figurative, literal, figurative...for a different
reason.)

Yeah, she said, "for a different reason". Okay. Let's first
ask...by the way, they they don't use the words literal and
figurative. They use "face value" or "not face value". Okay.
Middle Way School...so you have to distinguish between literal
and face value and figurative and not on face value. They have
different meanings to the Middle Way School. Okay. Middle Way
School. Can you take the first turning of the wheel on face
value?

(students: No)

Can you take the second turning of the wheel on face value?

(students: Yes)

Yes, can you take the third turning of the wheel on face value?

(students: No)

No, okay.

(students: Middle Way School?)

In the Middle Way School.

(student: Second turning is face value?)

Is face value, 'cause they think that's the correct one, right?
They think the Buddha was...

(student: No, no, no, no, no, is you can take it literally but
not at face value.)

We we'll we...(laughs) no, I think you can take it on face value.

(student: Didn't they say even nothing taken on face value but
you can take the second turning literally because)
Let me see here. "It is true that nothing exists by definition,
so, the first and the last"...it says in the answer key,
(laughter) the first and the last are not to be taken on face
value, but the middle one is, because it is true that nothing
exists by definition as stated in the middle one, and it's not
true that everything exists by definition as stated in the first
and that...or and it's not true that some things do and some
things do not exist by definition as stated in the third. You
can't take them on face value. Okay. Now when you say "literal"
or "figurative" in the Middle Way School, it means something
totally different. What does it mean?

(student: Figur...)

Al...all I said was face value...I didn't say "literal" or
"figurative". Literal means, in the Middle Way School, "any
scripture which talks directly about?

(students: Emptiness)

Emptiness. And figurative means "any time you didn't speak
directly or clearly...they say, "clearly", clearly, about
emptiness, okay. Why would you make that distinction between
what the Buddha really meant and what the Buddha didn't really
mean? You know, why don't you say that "literal" means "when he
meant what he said", and "figurative" means "when he didn't mean
what he said". 'Cause that's not what they say. They say,
literal means "any time he was talking about emptiness clearly"
and figurative means "any time when he wasn't talking about
emptiness clearly". Why why would they change the word around
like that...why would they change the meaning of that word around
like that?

(student: Because the ultimate goal is to understand emptiness).

Because the whole point is emptiness, okay? The whole point of
this whole exercise is emptiness, the whole point of the three
turnings of the wheel is emptiness...you see emptiness directly
one time, twenty minutes, all your problems are over, you know.
All your problems are over. You are in a realm by mistake. You
are in this realm by accident...by cruel, deadly, accident. And
and if you don't see emptiness directly, you will be here for
longer, much longer, and the minute you see emptiness directly,
you see the whole thing is over. You see directly the whole
story is over with. You're not in this realm...you won't be in
this realm any more. You can no longer collect the kind of karma
which can ripen into into directly into suffering this
realm...you're outta here. Just twenty minutes. Okay. That's
the whole point. It all boils down to that, you know. Can you
see it or can you not see it before you die. Okay. All right.
Number eleven. And seeing it really depends on study like this
and it sinks into your mind, and I'm not exaggerating...it
directly correlates to how much you study about it, and and on
the day that you see it directly, it will be very very much
because you have been studying it quite seriously. And
meditating well. And serving a Lama well. And all of those
conditions make it happen. And and mainly the study and the
service, okay? That's really how you do it. Okay. Number
eleven. What does it mean here...what is the real criterion that
decides whether a person belongs to the quote "lower way or the
higher way"...hinayana or mahayana, okay? Nothing to do with
what country they live in, not really anything to do, in this
context, about whether they have compassion or not, okay. Read
the (b: Abhidharmakosha)...you're supposed to practice Buddhism
to save all beings...I mean, you think they don't say that? They
have the word "bodhisattva" in the (b: Abhidharmakosh). You can
check it on the computer, you know, it's there. You know, I mean
the main point here is that we are here calling a person
"hinayana" and any of us could be a "hinayana" by that measure,
by how sophisticated is their idea about emptiness. How far
along are they in understanding emptiness. And then the second
half, you know, the higher two schools, meaning Mind Only and Mi
Middle Way, they have a more sophisticated understanding of
emptiness. And then...so you're in a higher knowledge, which
means Abhidharma or Sutrist School...hina...those are both
hinayana because they have certain primitive ideas about what
empti...I mean relatively primitive...way beyond us, okay, and
they have certain ideas about emptiness. And when you get up to
the Middle Way School and the Mid...sorry, the Mind Only School
and the Middle Way School, then it's much more sophisticated.
That's all. What does it mean to turn the wheel of the Dharma?

(student: (unclear)

To answer this question in a sweet way, okay, you have to
distinguish between the two kinds of the wheels of Dharma. What
are they?

(student: Internal and external.)

Yeah, (lung gi chun kor) and (tok pe chun kor) which means the
the physical dharma teaching and then the physical dharma meaning
the teachings, tape recording, CD Roms, paper books, lectures,
okay. Shruggs, (laughter) okay? No really, you know, are things
self-existent, you know, you know. Okay. Those are all physical
dharma teachings. And then there's the realizations in the
hearts of of living beings, okay...(tong lam)...direct perception
of emptiness...stuff like that. I mean, in the Abhidharma system
especially, that is the wheel of the dharma, okay. So the point
is that the teacher sets one in motion, meaning the physical
wheel of the dharma, and then that triggers in the mindstream and
the heart of the student, the the realizations that are the wheel
of the dharma. So I I like to see it as two gears locking, like
you you're looking for each other, you go through your your
teenage years messing around, then...me...and then you go through
your twenties, you know, like like try...looking for your
spiritual master and then, suddenly you hook up, and I see this
gear thing, you know, the spiritual master is turning this, and
then that starts to turn...you get close enough to them and then
there's a...they link in...they...the gear touches your gear and
then sets it in motion, then you can imagine that happening down
thousands of years, you see, this this gear catching that gear
and setting it in motion, and then when they grow up, they they
hit the next gear, and that's a lineage. And that's the wheel of
the dharma. And that's what that wheel means, okay? Physically
that's why they drawn a spoked wheel like that. Okay. Number
thirteen. Name three goals that the (b: Commentary on the True
Intent)...(b: Sum Dir Yer Mo Channa Sutra), okay. (b: Do De Gong
Drel). Which is the main sutra for the?
(students: Mind Only School)

Mind Only School. Okay, they say, that's where the Buddha really
said what he meant, okay. And then you're gonna get a different
sutra when you se...when you come to India and hear Geshe Thubten
Rinchen do the second half, when he gets into the Madyamika,
'cause they'll take a different sutra...(b: Lo De Me Se Pe Shu Pe
Do)...(b: The Sutra of Never-Ending Wisdom), okay. Then then
you're gonna get the Middle Way School saying, "no no no, this is
the main sutra. This is the sutra where he really said what he
meant", okay? So we're back in the Mind Only School sutra. The
minute you hear (b: A Commentary on the True Intent), you know
that we're talking?

(student: Mind Only School)

Mind Only School. And your answer better be Mind Only School,
okay. Who wrote this commentary? Which which part of the
(Tengyur) is it in?

(student: It's not in the (Tengyur))

It ain't in the (Tengyur) (laughter). Okay. Because it's not a
commentary...I mean it is a commentary, it's an auto commentary,
okay. It's Lord Buddha telling you what he really meant. You
know. I remember searching through (Tengyur) catalogs for weeks,
 you know, looking for this...this text, you know, 'cause it says
"commentary", but it's not a commentary, it's a sutra called (b:
What I Meant In My Other Sutras) (laughs), all right? You gotta
get used to that. Okay. Three goals he had...Lord Buddha had
when he taught that sutra. And why he divided the three turnings
of the wheel into figurative and literal. Why go through this
trouble. I mean, now you understand why he taught those three
characteristics of the Middle...of the Mind Only School. They
are cool when you understand the interaction...the, you know, the
in...how they, how they work together. You know, (yong drups) is
the absence of certain (kun taks) on top of certain (shen wangs),
okay. That's cool. But why did Lord Buddha go into this thing
of dividing each turning of the wheel...oh, this one's
figurative, this one's literal, this one's not, you know...why
trouble. Why not just give one turning of the wheel and say what
you mean? Okay. Here it is. a) The sutra wants to prevent us
from taking on face value, the blanket
statement...statements...that either a) everything exists by
definition or b) nothing exists by definition. So, you know,
answer part one, of three parts, right, is, "the sutra doesn't
want us to take blanket statements correct...as being true",
okay. From the Mid...from the Mind Only point of school, both of
those bl..blanket statements is wrong. What? Everything exists
by definit...or nothing exists by definition. Okay? Number two.
 "The sutra wants to inform us which of the three groups exists
by definition and which don't", okay? What? Total...emptiness,
and dependent things exi...do exist by definition and constructs
don't exist by definition. So it wants to teach us about those
three categories and tell us which ones do exist by definition
and which don't. Okay. Number three. "The sutra wants to
provide us with an effective way of understanding emptiness".
How?

(student: By understanding the relationship between (kun taks),
(shen wangs) and (yong drup).)

Cool. Very cool. By understanding the interrelationship between
those three categories, okay. (Yong drups) is the lack of
certain (kun taks) on top of certain (shen wangs). Okay. So so
it's giving you a good tool for understanding emptiness. And
those are the three goals of the sutra. Don't take blanket
statements. Understand which of the groups are exist by
definition and don't. And then, finally, understand how this is
a very cool way to teach emptiness, by thinking of things in
these three categories. Okay. Number fourteen. There's some
non...there are some other Buddhist groups who come along and
say, "all three turnings of the wheel were"? Literal. And there
were some thinkers in Tibet who came along and said, "the Buddha
was being literal in during all three turnings of the wheel".
Now during the first turning of the wheel, Lord Buddha, to
accommodate some non-Buddhists, even seemed to say that you had
some kind of existing soul, or self or something like that...you
know, he even seemed to say something like that. Okay. What did
he really mean? Okay. If you take that...if you take that
statement as literal, which these Tibetan schools do, then you
have to say a certain very weird thing. They interpret it to
mean that you have a little Buddha inside of you...it's called
"Buddha nature". Okay. They say "Lord Buddha was referring to
your Buddha nature, and right under your skin, there's a real
Buddha already there. You just have to peel it off." You know,
I've heard this over and over again...I've seen it...you know,
Buddha nature means "you really are a nice person and you just
have to reveal yourself". You know, and all people were made
nice, all people were made enlightened, and all you have to do is
 is just shine it up a little bit and you'll see, you know, and
then...they explain Buddha nature like that. Is it wrong?

(students: Yes)

Yes. Is it useful?

(students: Yes)

Maybe. For some people. So do we judge the people who say that?

(students: No)

No. In fact if you do you break your first bodhisattva vow...you
gotta be careful here, okay. First bodhisattva vow. (Dak du she
min chen me to shing)...(dak du) doesn't mean just generally
praising yourself. If that was the first bodhisattva vow, we'd
be, it'd be, life would be hopeless (laughter), you know, for me
anyway, but but what it means is specifically to criticize other
dharma paths, okay? Like that. Judge them. Okay. So, is it is
it right...no. Is it maybe useful, perhaps. When people are
mature enough is it important to "unteach" them that?

(students: Yes)

Yes. (laughs) Okay. All right. So what does Buddha nature
mean? The emptiness of your body and mind. The Buddha never
said and never meant that there's some kind of thing inside of
you. The only thing about you which is right right now, is your
emptiness. That's the only thing that you get to take to the
bank. Okay. The only thing...the only part of you that's still
gonna be there when you get enlightened. What? You think you're
gonna get to keep certain part of your fingernails? (laughter)
Do you think a certain part of your liver or intestines is
something good...you know what I mean? There's no physical part
of you that's still gonna be the same when you get there. And
there's basically no mental part of you which is om... omniscient
yet, so that's not gonna be there either. Fortunately you do
have one part which is still gonna be there when you get there,
which is your emptiness. How 'bout your name?

(students: No)

You don't ke ke keep your name either. They won't call you Jay
or whatever when you get enlightened, okay? (laughter) So the
only part of you that you get to keep is your Buddha nature,
which is the emptiness of your body and mind. Thank god my arm
is empty, because then I can look down on it someday and see it
as Manjushri's arm. Or Tara's arm. Okay. Tara. Okay.
(laughter) (laughs). Pretty good to be whatever you want. Okay.
 Fifteen. Who is the great innovator who revived the Mind Only
School system in this world? What book did he base his work on?
And how do we know that this was the book? Okut. On on on how
do we know...this is weird. (laughter) I better read that
question again. Okay. Anyway. By the way it's important to say
that Master Asanga did not invent the Mind Only School, he just
revived it. Who invented it?

(students: Lord Buddha)

Lord Buddha. It was a useful (tap tsul). It was a useful
skillful means, okay. Then it kinda got obscured for a while and
then Arya Asanga brought it back, okay? It's like certain kinds
of music. He used what scripture to revive that system?

(students: (b: Commentary on the True Intent)

(b: The Commentary on the True Intent). (b: The Sutra In Which
The Buddha Explains What He Meant In All His Other Sutras).
Okay. How do we know that this is a book he based it upon? He
mentions it in several of his works. He says, "I'm basing this
system on that sutra", okay. Okay. Let me see...we'll do one
more and then I'll give you a break, okay? Since everyone is
asleep. This innovator sets forth the meaning of "thusness" or
emptiness largely through a description of the two extremes and
how to avoid them. Name the two states of mind that hold to
these two extremes. By the way, important to make the
distinction between the extreme and the mind which is holding to
the extreme. Okay. Technically speaking, does the extreme exist?

(students: No)

No because the extreme is the object of the wrong idea. It is
the rabbit with two heads. That's what we call the extremes.
And then there's the tendency of the mind to grasp onto that
extreme, and that's called "grasping to the extreme". So so
learn to distinguish between..."extreme" is a technical word in
Buddhism that refers to the non-existent thing that your mind
thinks is there. And then there's the state of mind which grasps
to that extreme, and those are two different things. Okay. Two
totally different things, okay. First...but you...I think you
could say...I get out of it...I fudge it by saying, extreme way
of thinking, how's that? (laughter) Which which to me means
"the state of mind which is holding to that non-existent
extreme". How's that? Okay. So what are they. They're called
(dron dok) and (kurn dep). Say (dron dok) (repeat) (kurn dep)
(repeat) (dron dok) (repeat) (kurn dep) (repeat). (Dron dok)
means "seeing something there when there's nothing there. (Kurn
dep) means "denying the existence of something that really is
there. For example, in the general confession, what does it say?
 (Pakpay gen den la kor deppa dang), okay, (pakpay gen den la kor
deppa) means "please forgive all the times that I made a mistake
and and assume that somebody was had not seen emptiness directly
when perhaps they had". Okay. That's that's denying something
that does exist there. See. (Kurn dep) can also mean...with
people, (kurn dep) means "to say, definitively, 'my boss doesn't
have a single good quality about him'". Okay. That's a (kurn
dep). (Dron dok) is like, "oh, you know...I went to this
lecture...the Lama had this really nice smile...you know, he's a
bodhisattva", okay (laughter), I mean, you hear that, okay? One
is (dron dok) and one is (kurn dep), okay. You don't know, you
know. You really don't know. You don't know in either case,
okay. And we call them in English, "concocting things" and and
"discounting things". Okay. Okay. Concocting meaning...that's
a good word in English, because it means "totally to make up
something that's not there".

What is the usual thing you're concocting?

(student: A self-existent thing.)

A self-existent thing, okay? A boss who is bad from his own
side. A person who irritates you who is bad from their own side.
 And not because your stupid mind is projecting that. Okay?
They're...you're making up this person who irritates you, and
then you get more angry at them, okay? And and and assure that
you're gonna meet them further, okay. That's the way the worl
of...wheel of life spins. That's the way you create your
suffering and maintain it so nicely. Okay. (Kurn dep) being
what?

(student: Discounting things)

Yeah, discounting what in in terms of Madyamika or or about
emptiness?

(student: Morality...appearances)

What about Mind Only School? What would be a (kurn dep)?

(student: Middle Way People (laughter))

(student: Thinking that...)

Yeah. She says, just...she said a good answer. Those stupid
Middle Way people. Things which obviously exist by definition,
pens which obviously exist from their own side, they go around
saying?

(students: They don't exist...)
This is being projected by your mind. Oh, well then I'll make it
a hundred dollar bill. You know. Come on. You know. What's
wrong with you guys. All right. That's that's a obviously a
(kurn dep), okay. It doesn't...obviously it exists by
definition. Don't say it doesn't exist by definition. Don't say
it doesn't have any nature of its own. It obviously has some
nature of its own. Everybody in this room sees it as a pen,
right? Okay. Have some refreshments. Okay.

(break)

Okay. This is a reception we're planning for late March, early
April. The release of the fourth CD along with a lot of images,
some wood carved images from Russia, about, I think, four hundred
of them or something, and it's gonna be some like really nice
reception maybe a hundred or two hundred people and it's to
acquaint people with the new release. On that release will be a
hundred and fifty thousand pages of scripture that we've
completed so far, and it'll be on one CD and we'll be giving it
away, and it'll also be on the WEB for free download. So, if
you'd like to help with that reception, it's being managed by
Mercedes, who's right here, with Ian, wherever he is...where is
Ian? Okay (laughs) and John Brady is generally helping out with
that too, but talk to Mercedes. We'll need like a lot of
volunteers and it'll be a lot of fun, I think, okay? All right.
Oh, last I'd like to introduce Joan Stigliani...where is she?
Yeah. Higher. She's one of the very nice group of...I think
there's started as a group of forty people, who went to Pomaia,
Italy to study with a Geshe there for a seven year course, and
they're about two years finished? Or...

(student, Joan: Finished one year).

Finished one year. And they're really doing a nice job and I
want to congratulate them. She's representing them,
okay...they're on break right now...they get certain amount of
time off each year and they're very serious and they're doing
very nice study there. So I want to welcome you and congratulate
you. (round of applause) Okay. The question seventeen says,
describe in a brief sentence, the Middle Way idea about the two
extremes, meaning (dron dok) and (kurn dep), right,
and...concocting in the Middle Way version would be to say, "if
something exists, it must?"

(student: Exist by definition)

Exist by definition. Okay. That's a...that's an extreme, why?
Because it doesn't exist, okay. The fact that if something
exists it must exist by definition is an extreme, first...first
of all, it just doesn't exist at all...that fact doesn't
exist...it's not a fact, it's an untruth, it's a false, falsity,
okay. It's not true that if something exists it must exist by
definition. That's false, it

(cut)

In the Middle Way School. Yeah.

(student: I have a question.)

Yeah?

(student: It seems like it's more than just concocting, it seems
like you concoct it and then you forget it.)

(laughs) Yeah. Jay says, you know, "the mind tends to concoct
it and then forget that it concocted it". Of course. Yeah. You
dearly believe that your boss is bad from his side. Every person
that you ever got angry at, you you dearly believe that they are
irritating from their own side. You you and that's that's where
all your suffering...

(student: (unclear) you make things up, you know you made it up)

Yeah. There's a there are's there is some kind of theory where
you make up something and still remember, but we're talking about
making up something and not even being aware that you're making
it up. Okay? Then the opposite of that is, if something did not
exist by definition, then, what would the Mind Only School say?
(student: It doesn't exist at all)

You know, and if it were a (shen wang) for example. It'd have to
not at exist at all. If you had a pen that didn't exist by
definition, that must?

(student: Not exist at all.)

Not exist at all. Okay. And that would be (kurn dep)...that
would be discounting something, okay. What according to the
Middle Way School is the meaning of ultimate or ultimate reality,
okay? Remember that for them it's different from existing
ultimately or...okay. There's a big difference between ultimate
existence and existing ultimately. Nothing exists ultimately.

(student: But it does exist nominally.)

But, and everything exists nominally, and emptiness is the
ultimate, or ultimate reality, okay. So you have to be careful
when you get to Middle Way. Ultimate exis...ultimate reality is
emptiness. But nothing exists ultimately which means...it could
mean a dozen things, but you could say, "independent of your
projections forced on you by your past karma." No such thing,
okay. From its own side, say, okay. How does the Middle Way
School describe deceptive reality? You could say it's the kind
of reality that deceives a certain state of mind. Okay.
Deceptive reality in the Middle Way School is a kind of reality
that deceives a certain state of mind. What state of mind? The
state of mind itself is called "the deceived" and that's why that
reality is called "deceptive reality", okay? Why is it
deceptive...why is anything deceptive in the whole world? Why
can you say, "someone deceived me"? 'Cause they presented
themselves one way and the reality was?

(students: Another way)

A different way, okay? When there's a discrepancy between the
way they're presenting themselves and the way they really are, we
call it "deceiving me". And that's exactly what deceptive
reality means. It appears to be self-existent, and it's not.
Especially to an a mentally...a mental affliction. You can say
it that way, you know. If you have a mental affliction towards
anything, you must at that same moment be misperceiving them.
They must be deceiving you. You can't get mad at your boss and
at the same moment realize that you're creating them with your
projection. You can't. You can't be aware that if you're mad,
you're gonna make him...come back the next day. And at the same
time be mad at him. It's impossible. They can alternate very
quickly as you may experience when you're trying to practice.
(laughter) (laughs) Okay. Technically speaking they can't exist
in the same mind at the same time. Okay. They can alternate at
about one sixty-five (laughs) (laughter) of a finger snap, you
know, like wisdom is like, gets in a punch (laughter), you know,
and then (laughs) and then anger, you know, and then the idea is
that the fight gets more and more fair as time goes on. Okay.
(laughter) Number twenty. How does the Mind Only School draw
the difference between quote "ultimate reality" and "deceptive
reality"? I think basically it's the difference between existing
by definition or not. Is that true, Chilton?
He says no.

(student, Chilton: Because something that would be an example of
deceptive reality can exist ultimately according to what Geshe
Thubten Rinchen said.)

Give an example...(shen wangs)?

(student, Chilton: Yes, this this pen)

Yeah

(student, Chilton: This pen is the ultimate sense of reality but
it exists (unclear)...something, they wouldn't say doesn't exist
ultimately, or something like that.)

Hum. It's not ultimate existence but it exists ultimately.
How's that?

(student, Chilton: Something like that.)
But it's an example of deceptive reality, how's that? How's that?

(student: Can you, can you say it one more time?)

I I'm kind of unclear on this...but I think you could say that
even the pen, according to the Mind Only School is an example of
what we call deceptive reality, like (kun taks) and (shen wangs)
are deceptive reality and (yong drup) is ultimate reality. But,
you can say, in the Mind Only School that (shen wangs) exist
ultimately, whereas in the Middle Way School you can't say that.
Something like that? Okay. So so like, what shall we say, well
that's that's okay...I gotta work on that, okay I'll work on
that. Maybe I should take it out. Maybe I'll put the answer in
your final. (laughter) Number twenty one. Twenty one and
twenty two are basically questions about external
objects...existing as external objects, and I I I was gonna not
put them in, and then I decided to put them in because I don't
want you guys ever thinking that the Mind Only School means that
they think everything is your mind or something like that, okay.
I mean...I want, I put them in the final because I wanted you to
recall or to remember that in the Mind...the Mind Only School,
the word "Mind Only" doesn't have anything to do with them not
believing that this thing is outside of me or something like
that, okay. And and this is a totally...this is Geshe Thubten
Rinchen's presentation which was very beautiful. And he just did
it as a side thing one day. He wasn't like...it wasn't what he
was talking about, and and he he went into it and we were all
thrilled because we'd always wondered about it, okay? So,
question twenty-one. How does the Consequence part of the Middle
Way School describe what it means to exist as an inter...external
object? Okay. That just means "not subsumed by my
consciousness", okay? If you poke this paper with a pin, I don't
go ouch, okay? And you know, this debate about your hair...the
end of your hair, if you have... is is is not (gyu gyi
duppa...rang gyu gyi duppa)...it's not subsumed by your
awareness. If you cut it you don't go ouch, okay, but if you
pull it, the folicles, they say, are (gyu gyi duppa). So you get
the feeling. So basically, I mean, in the higher schools of
Buddhism, do external objects exist? Yeah. What are they?
Well, they're not part of me...they're outside there, you know.
That's all. Nothing complicated. Okay. Nothing mystical, you
know. It's out there; it's not part of me. Okay? That's all.
So so does the highest school of Buddhism, Madyamika Prasangika,
accept existence of external objects?

(student: No)

Whoa.

(students: Yes, yes, yes.)

Yeah, of course they do. Why? Oh 'cause there's this paper out
there and it's not me and if you stuck a pin in the paper, I
wouldn't go ouch. Okay? Something like that. All right. It's
not subsumed by my immediate sense consciousness or something
like that. Question twenty two. This question has two parts.
What do members of the Mind Only School, and then in parenthesis
it says, (and those...and the Independent Madyamikans who who
lean towards them)...okay, so we're talking Mind Only School and
Mind Only School leaners...okay, in the Middle Way School...have
in mind when they say nothing exists as an external object? All
they have in mind is that nothing exists as an external object in
the way that the lo...that the other...that the lower two schools
present it. Okay. That's all. That's all. Existing through
some kind of partless atoms or something like that, okay?
They...we just...that's all. When they sa...okay, that's
the...very important, okay. I mean, now you should go around
clarifying that idea in people's minds, okay, especially Western
scholars who are who are very attracted by the idea that there's
a school of Buddhism that says "everything is in your mind".
Everything is in your head, you know. It's sexy and nobody ever
said that, okay? Do they accept the existence of plain old
external objects? Yeah, as long as you describe them as coming
from the same karmic seed as the, you know...that's okay. Do
they accept the existence of external objects as they are
described by the materialists, the scientists, you know, who who
think that everything...that the ultimate reality is some kind of
atom, you know, you know...that's what builds reality...is
atoms...I mean this is...scientists go in the Abhidharma School
probably. That the ultimate reality is is comes...boils down to
atoms. You know, that that, yeah, they don't accept that. They
don't accept external objects like that. Do they accept that
external objects, built of atoms, particles? Sure. Okay. Do
they...the only problem is...they don't believe in atoms that
don't have any sides, or don't have any parts...an atom that is
so small that you could no longer split it...well, come on...how
could you...how could it...if it didn't have width, then what
would it be? They would all be touching each other on every
side, okay? Got it? Which means they'd all be one atom and all
the other atoms wouldn't exist...or something like that. It's
impossible. Okay. That's all. What does the Consequence Group,
and the Independents who lean the other way...meaning the
Sutrists way...have in mind when they say that they are wrong?

(student: (unclear))

Huh? (laughs)

(student: Basically...)

They say, by the way...there's one similarity between the highest
Madyamika and the Sutrists, ex explain the idea of external
objects. Who is that? I'm sorry. Highest Madyamika...which
means Prasangika and then those people in the Indendent Group who
are leaning towards the Sutrists, okay?...they say, look, when we
say we do accept or we don't accept external objects, it's not
necessary that we're defining them in the way that the lower two
schools define them. Okay. In other ways, when a Prasangika guy
gets up and says, "I do accept external objects", he's not
saying, "I accept external objects as they're presented by the
lower two schools". Because a Mind Only School guy gets up and
says, "I don't accept external objects", and they say why? He
says, "because if I did, I'd have to accept it the way they think
it exists". Okay. That's all. The higher school...Prasangika
and the half of the Independents who lean towards the Sutrists,
they say, "come on. You don't have to deny the existence of
external objects just because those guys thinks that's what an
external object means. You can just...you can just say "external
objects exist the way I want them to, which is just as something
which is outside of myself", okay. And then the Mind Only School
says, "no no no. When you say external object, you mean one made
of partless atoms. We can't accept it". Okay...that's all.
Okay? Lots of yawns out there (laughter) okay. But you'll get
it (laughter). Twenty three. What does the Mind Only School
mean when they say the valid perception which is the subject
that perceives the pen and the pen itself are of the same
substance?

(students: Karmic seed. Same karmic seed)

Is they come from one karma...they come from one karmic seed.
They are both growing from...there's no coincidences...you never
have a strange encounter of the third kind of whatever, you know,
there's no thuch...such thing as an encounter. It's not like the
pen is coming from the factory and makes it to this
school...Michael Roach comes from Sixth Street and makes it to
this school and they bump into each other. There's never any
thing like that. It is a creation of my karma and I am a
creation of my karma and that's why they're bumping into each
other, okay, at the same time. They're both growing from
my...they're both growing and being sustained by my own karma at
the same time. Okay. That's a real Mind Only School favorite
thing to talk about. Okay. And emptiness is the fact that
it's...nothing else is true. No other way of being is true,
okay. That's one of their flavors of emptiness. Okay. Twenty
four. Well then, why do they call them the Mind Only School?
You know, if they...if it's not that they believe...if they do
believe in external objects, and if it's not that they think the
pen is part of my mind, which was covered in the last two
questions, okay...then the what's the thing should pop into your
mind next...well then why the hell do they call them the Mind
Only School? Okay. Why call them the Mind Only School, okay.
And what does Je Tsongkapa say in his (b: Gom pa rabd sel) Very
famous. O-kay. He says, sutra...he quotes the (b: Sutra of the
Tenth Level) called (b: Sa Chupay Do), okay, (b: Sutra of the
Tenth Bodhisattva Level), okay. Which says, that sutra says
directly, quote, "these three realms of existence, meaning
everything that exists in samsara, are mind only". It says "mind
only"...meaning what?
(student: Mainly mind.)

Yeah. Meaning mainly...the main...well he says, quote...and I
think it's nice if you quote it, okay..."the mind is the main
thing". Okay. Mind Only means "the mind is the main thing". As
far as what? As far as the creation of your reality. Meaning,
and and at that point, that sutra is denying the existence of a?

(students: Creator.)

Creator god. And that, in that context he...the Buddha says,
"it's mind man". It's not god. Okay. It's not god made AIDS,
cancer, automobile accidents, kids getting burned by napalm, or
cruise missiles or something like that, okay. It's not that
that's made by a creator god, it's made primarily by mind having
collected karma and then projecting stuff. That's all. It's not
saying that a cruise missile is made of mind or something like
that. Yeah.

(student: Just a quick question. Mind Only School, how do you
define...or how do they define how a thing comes from its own
side, 'cause that's something I haven't really been quite clear
on.)

He says, "when the Mind Only School says things come from their
own side, what do they really mean". And, you know, fortunately
we had a very good explanation of it. It's (unclear)...the
expression in Tibetan is (yul rang gyi tunmong ma yin be du luk
kyi ngu ne druppa...yul rang gyi tunmong ma yin be du luk kyi ngu
ne druppa) Okay. Which means, "the thing exists from its own
side with some unique nature of its own", okay...with some unique
identity of its own. And then the text said, "what are they
mainly talking about when the say that?" And they say...in the
Mind Only School's mind, okay, according to them, the fact that
that pen comes from causes which are themselves out there, okay,
then the thing that they produce must be out there too. That's
their main schtick, you know. If you asked a Mind Only School
person, "Wh...what are you thinking of when you say that thing
has to have its own identity from its own side"...they say, "you
know, if you tell me I'm projecting this pen, then what about all
that stuff that went into making the pen, you know....why do you
have to have a factory, why do you have to have petroleum, you
know, why do you have to have somebody design it, why do you have
to have a store, you know, if if if it wasn't made from it's
own...you see, Mi...Madyamika and Mind Only are sa...are both
kind of saying that things are a creation of your projections,
which is why you can become a Buddha. And they're saying, "no no
no, come on. Those things are being produced from the bottom,
you see, from those outside causes are producing these things".
And we say, "No, the main thing is karma is expressing itself
through your mind and you're seeing them, you're making them what
they are", you see what I mean? And you get into fierce debates
with people...how can you get rich...how can you make things go
the way you want in your life...are you gonna be, and this is
very important, maybe it's the most important thing to say about
this class, are you gonna be a Mind Only person who truly
believes that to make something happen in your life, you must
correctly manipulate outer circumstances, or are you gonna clean
up the things around you by working on your own mind, and your
own book and your own morality. What's the better way to do it?
Buddhism says that the external thing does not work, you know.
It doesn't matter how cleaverly you make a presentation. It
doesn't matter what kind of printer you use. The font doesn't
matter. (laughter) The, you know, ultimately all of that is
meaningless. All that matters is, were you generous in your
past. You know. And then suddenly this guy won't care what the
font is, or whether you used colored pictures or whether they're
crooked or not, or something like that (laughter)...you see what
I mean? And it's very hard to hold that line. It's extremely
hard to hold that line. Things are not created by external
causes. Okay. Tho those are not the thing. The thing is, the
only thing that de...that that determines whether your proposal
is sus sus sucessful or not is is whether you've been generous.
Period. You know, and if you made a lousy proposal or lost the
proposal on the way to the sponsors or the dog spilled coffee on
it (laughter) or chewed it or whatever, and if you still had the
karma, then when you got there, they would award you the money,
you know. And and you've had the opposite experience countless
times. It's a spotless, it's perfect, the numbers all add up,
you put in sexy pictures, and you went there, and they said, "she
left yesterday and she left a message that you don't have to
bother" (laughter) (laughs) okay. You know. That's the way it
is, you know, really. Okay. You know. Things are not created
by that. They are created by by karma. Okay. That's all.
Yeah. And and by the way, the other viewpoint is Mind Only. You
see? And that's the answer to your question. The other
viewpoint is Mind Only. You know. This is...this thing is gonna
succeed or not succeed on the basis of my external efforts. And
not on the basis of whether or not I've kept my morality and my
book and my my vows. Okay. Very interesting. And and any other
viewpoint is Mi...is mind Only. Okay. Yeah.

(student: I I know it necessary then to try, but why?)

(laughs) She says, "I know it's necessary to try then then but
why? Why try, you know, why...wh...I mean, the...there's a thing
where...what's that how's she say...the the question is really
this. If it's not the aspirin that removes your headache, then
why ever take aspirin? You see what I mean? If if whether or
not the aspirin works, is gonna be determined by by your karma
and not anything in the aspirin...you see, to believe that the
aspirin works because of some chemical in the aspirin is a Mind
Only School viewpoint. To believe that the aspirin works because
you alleviated other peoples pain in the past is a is a Middle
Way viewpoint. And then some people wanna fudge it, and I think
we have to...you have to discuss this question deeply. Some
people want to fudge it. They divide between causes and factors.
 Okay. They say, the the good karma is the cause and the factor
is the...is the aspirin, okay? And and then the aspirin becomes
a an independently existing thing, you see? 'Cause it has some
power in and of itself to cure your headache. But the main cause
is your karma. You see what I mean? They're like giving it
fifty-fifty...they're saying that the the chemicals in the
aspirin are fifty percent effective and fifty percent karma or
some...you know, fifty percent effective from their own side and
fifty percent karma and if you didn't take the aspirin, you
wouldn't get...you headache wouldn't go away. You know what I
mean. Something like that. And I think you...I I've heard that
from from many...I've heard that from very convincing people say
that, and I think you have to really...you have to think about it
very very carefully. You have to think about it very very
carefully. I'll say this...I mean...the karma that would allow
you to meet a doctor and the karma...or let's say the karma to be
able to afford a good specialist and the karma to be cured are
similar, but it's not necessarily that the specialist is who's
curing you. Maybe you get used to that idea, okay? The karma to
run into a specialist who's a who's good is very close to the
karma of them being able to cure you. But obviously they're not
the same thing, I mean, 'cause you can have specialists who kill
you (laughter) and people are...people do get killed by high paid
specialists, you know, so, so obviously what's really curing you
is something else. Okay. That's a delicate thing. And you have
to...that's by the way, a very delicate wrong view, I think, and
you have to think about it carefully, and you people will give
you that schpiel...I I believe in that schpiel sometimes, and I
have to talk myself out of it, you know what I mean? Would you
get cured anyway if you didn't take the aspirin? Yeah. Yeah you
would. Does that mean you shouldn't take aspirin? No. And you
gotta get used to that. Okay. Yeah.

(student: (unclear) shifted and like find another way for mind
only being the cause and effect but it's not aspirin, it's a
security...anyway, so)

(laughs)

(student: So, to do something like this is labeled aspirin, but
it's just take away your headache, generally aspirin.)

Oh...well then there's no such thing as aspirin that doesn't work
then, is what you're saying. He's saying real...you have to
divide between aspirin that works and aspirin that doesn't
work...I understand.

(student: To believe the cause)

Yeah yeah. I mean, you could say that, but no, I'd say...no, I
don...I wouldn't say that. I mean, I wouldn't hold that
viewpoint. I wouldn't hold that viewpoint...that you could only
call it aspirin if it does work, I wouldn't say, 'cause 'cause
then you couldn't say, "the aspirin didn't help today". You
see? Anyway (laughter).

(student: Michael says, before you mentioned that, to be careful
of considering the aspirin as a factor 'cause then it would
become a self-existent...)

What I'm saying is that, be careful of of thinking that, my karma
is the main thing and the aspirin helps. I think that's a wrong
view.

(student: Right. My question is)

You see what I mean? The...any percentage of the aspirin that
helps can only be your karma also. You see what I mean? That's
what I'm saying.

(student: Well my question is that it seems as though karma and
virtue have some kind of self-existing nature in there, in that
system, and that's what I'm trying to reconcile, because you're
saying well, it's not the fact of the aspirin, but then yet in
this world of, you know, no self natures, it seems that there's a
subtle self-nature to virtuous actions as being different from
other actions, and of karma as in being some kind of from its own
side, continuum.)

Yeah, I mean, Buddha said, (jin be lon chu gyi chun gyi de), very
famous. (Jin be lon chu) means "give away your money, you'll get
rich". (Chun gyi de), "keep your morality, you'll be happy all
the time". Okay. That relationship between doing something good
and getting something good back would seem to be self-existent, I
mean you hear that...people say that, you know...which means,
could it ever be different? And you say no, it could never be
different. And then they say, well then it must be self-
existent. You see what I mean. In that case, your he...your arm
could always only be a hand and never a paw. You know what I
mean. I don't think you can say it that way...I don't...I don't
think it follows...I don't think it follows from that. Why? I
think certain, if if an
action harms somebody else, then then yeah, it's always the case
that it will harm you back because of per...the...because of the
nature of perception. Does that mean that the laws of karma are
not empty? I don't think so. Still you're just projecting it.
When you see the fact that good deeds cause pleasure and bad
deeds cause pain, that's still a projection. Okay. Does the
fact that it's invariable mean it's not a projection? I think
not. I don't think you have to say that. You gotta cook that.
Yeah. Yeah.

(student: Is there some contradiction in saying that
things...external objects arise from their own causes and
conditions and yet they arise...that both the mind perceiving
them and the object also rise from the same karmic causes?)

Yeah, I don't that Mind Only...I don't think that the Middle Way
Prasangika for example, would have a problem saying...and they
don't have a problem saying...it's true that fruit trees grow
from their seeds and it's true that they don't grow through self-
existent means, you know, I don't think they'd have a problem
with that...they'd say, "the seeds are a projection, the sprout
is a projection, the water's projection, the fertilizer's a
projection, and and they always accompany trees that grow that
way", but then they say, you know, go down to hell, there are
(sha ma li) knife trees that grow there and cut people open and
don't...you know, they grow without water, and they live there in
a very hot place, you know, they couldn't grow like that...it's
impossible to grow like that i,i,i,in our realm, according to the
rules of our realm, and...but they grow, you see what I mean?
'Cause they're a projection. Nobody plant...

(students: What's the projection...so they're called...)

Nobody went down and planted those trees in hell and it's too hot
for a normal tree to exist there, but they exist there, you know,
so like that.

(student: What's the (unclear))

(Pa tok be tak tsam)...it's on your exam. (Do be pa tak tsam...do
pe) excuse me?

(student: What's that word in Sanskrit?)

Boy, I don't know...it's something like...I
forget...ve...kapalatas or something...kalpa...it comes from the
root kalpa, kalpa. All right. Okay. I think, okay. Pretty
sure. Okay. Before you catch me more (laughter)...twenty-five.
This is a question about the three...the we we went up to...in
class nine we graduated to the Independent group of the Middle
Way School, okay, Svatantrika, which has nothing to do with
(tantra), it's just a similar word, okay, meaning Independent
School because they think that certain kinds of reasons have an
independent existence or something...that they're independently
effective in arguing emptiness or something like that. Okay.
So, they believe in in a...they believe in three degrees of
selflessness, and only the third degree is?

(students: Emptiness)

Is true emptiness. Although the other two degrees can be
described as the emptiness of su...blah.blah.blah.blah.blah.
Okay. But they they they talk about three degrees of emptiness.
And if you're on a lower track you perceive first degree, if
you're on a medium track, which is, you know, self-made Buddha
track, you perceive the second degree, and if you're on a
mahayana track you perceive the third degree which is emptiness,
okay. But this question is just a a a general question about
those degrees. What are the three degrees? Gross lack of a self
nature to the person...sorry...subtle is is selflessness
number...lack of self nature number one. The obvious or gross
lack of a self nature to things is the second degree selflessness
and then true emptiness is the subtle lack of a nature to things,
okay. And you know that "things" here is a code word for?

(students: Parts)

Parts of a person as opposed to the person. Okay. That's pretty
cool. It's easy to do describe, I'm sorry...twenty-six...it's
easy to confuse the three tracks with the three different ways
mentioned in scripture especially since the Tibetan for both is
the same. The Tibetan, by the way, is is (tek pa sum), right?
The three (tek pa)s, the three yanas, okay. And it says,
describe the difference. So...in...in...the three tracks when
you're talking about three flavors of selflessness for example,
are listener track, self-made Buddha track and bodhisattva track.
Those are three (tek pa)s. (Tek pa sum). How many of them are
(tek men) or hinayana?

(students: Two, two, two, two, two)

These two, and and then bodhisa...the highest one is mahayana,
okay. What are the other th...what's the other group of three
(tek pa)s or yanas, they call...this is a a Dharma rumor, okay.
Hinayana, mahayana, vajrayana. But really you should say what?

(student: Just two)

Hinayana and mahayana, and then inside of madayana you have
"open" and "secret" mahayana, okay. This one called "The Way of
the Perfections", and this one called "The Way of the Secret
Word", okay, or "the Way of the Diamond". Those are synonyms,
okay. Mantrayana and Vajrayana are synonyms. Okay. So...that's
clear...right?

(student: un huh.)

Okay. Very sleepy. Me too. (laughter). Okay. I kinda like this
because you know, it finally dawned on me that Lord Buddha went
from saying that, you know...here you got Mind Only School is
saying...what percentage of this object comes from its own side
according to the Mind Only School?

(students: All of it.)

Hundred percent. (Rang mu ni druppa) Okay. (Rang gi tunmong ma
yinpay duluk kyi ngu ne druppa), okay? It comes from its own
side. Now in the Independent group, Middle Way School, what
percentage...in a sense...of the object comes from its own side?
(students: Fifty percent)

About fifty percent. Okay. There has to be something appearing
and my unaffected, undrugged, unhallucinating, un-mentally
afflicted grossly mentally unafflicted (laughter) mind has to has
to ag...somewhere in the middle they have to agree, like the
magician...the example of the magician, okay? There there has to
be a stick there that's appearing as a horse, and then your mind
under the influence of the magic dust and magic words of the
magician, have to be seeing it that way and somewhere in the
middle you start to see a horse, okay? So there has to be
something coming from its side, which is horse, and there has to
be something coming from your side which sees horse, and then
somewhere in the middle you get a horse, okay? Now...what's the
Middle...what's the Prasangika presentation?

(student: It's a projection)

There's nothing horse about it...nothing. There is a...there is
a cylinder, okay, I mean there's a cylinder and then and then
it's not...you can say it's suggesting pen but there's no penness
of it, okay, it doesn't have any quality of penness of its own,
it's all...it's all imposed on that cylinder by by your
perceptions forced upon you, or you are compelled to see it that
way, because of your past karma, okay. And by the way, the
important thing here is, if it had any existence from its own
side, hundred percent like the Mind Only School says, or fifty
percent like the Independent School say, then you and I are stuck
 here. We we can't get enlightened. Forget it. Why? 'Cause
you won't be able to perceive your arm as Manjushri's arm. Okay.
 And you won't be able to perceive your mind as an enlightened
mind...you're stuck with the way your mind is now. If it
comes...if if two percent of it, if one percent of it...Nagarjuna
say, would say, "if one thousandth of one percent of it comes
from its own side, you're in trouble; you can't become a Buddha",
 you know. If...but the Prasangika viewpoint is that, okay,
because it's (tok pa par tak tsam) you can become a Buddha.

(student: Unless you postulate that false Buddha nature we
talked about earlier...)
Yeah. Yeah. Unless you had some wrong idea about Buddha nature.



(student: (unclear))

Yeah. Yeah. Well, even then. If that Buddha nature existed
from its own side you'd still be in trouble because the thing
covering it would exist from its own side. You see. And then it
could never be removed. It could never be changed. By the way,
if it were changed by externally self-existing causes, then you
could do it. You see what I mean. You gotta get used to that.
Start thinking of things as being created this way and not as
being created this way. You see what I mean. In kids class we
call it the difference between the?

(student: How and the why)

How and the why. (laughter) On Saturday, on Saturday we
say..."did you have any friends that that had something bad
happen today", say, "yeah, my my friend was run over by a car."
Sammy's friend was run over by a car and killed, okay. And we
say, "how did it happen?", and he says, "well, he got hit by the
car". Then we say, "why did it happen?", we say, "he he must
have hurt somebody in the past". And you dis...you know, the
kids get it right away. I don't know about the adults (laughter)
but the distinction between how and why, you see. How is
describing the circumstances that seem to be causing the thing.
How did the guy die? His head went through the windshield. Why
did the guy die? He hurt someone in his past life. The how is
just the expression of the why, and you gotta get used to that,
okay. Otherwise you're stuck here, you know. You can't protect
everybody's head from windshields. If that's what really kills
people, we're in trouble, you know. What really kills them is
their karma. Okay. Yeah.

(student: Where does the cylinder come from?)

Bill said, "where's the cylinder come from?" This is called the
onion skin theory, (laughter), okay...you know...Nagarjuna says,
"until such time as you begin to discuss the cylinder, you wanna
talk pen or you wanna talk cylinder? Are we gonna examine the
existence of the pen or are we gonna examine the existence of the
cylinder? When you're examining the existence of the pen, you
talk about a a cylinder as if it were there. From its own side.
You leave it. Okay. As if it were a priory...as if it were
there from the beginning. And then you talk about your
projections onto it as being a pen or as being a chewable thing.
And then some smart-alec comes along and says, "what about the
cylinder?" Okay. (laughter) Okay. What about the cylinder?
And then you say, "same principle applies". There's two parts,
and and your mind is synthesizing them into a cylinder, okay.
And then they say, "well, what about the...what about the...how",
 you know, and then it goes on and on and on and on and and
that's called (ta ne dak pe dak den ser way tsa ma nga ye) means
"that's what it means in the Madyamika system to not exist by
definition"...that's why we say it doesn't exist by definition
'cause if you keep going down, you know, it's endless...you'll
never find anything, okay?

(student: This school...)

Does...by...excuse me...one more thing. Does that mean that we
are to be...by the way...bodhisattva vow number I don't remember,
okay, (laughter) but, don't teach emptiness to the
unprepared...meaning, never leave the discussion at that point.
Never let Jay Hahn interrupt you at that moment...with a new
question. Always point out to the audience, it doesn't mean that
you have to be disoriented, it doesn't mean that you can't get
onto a bus because you're gonna fall through the earth or or
something like that...okay...never think that. There is a
reality to everything. If you don't think so, let me mark up
your face with this cylinder. You know, we'll make a Hitler
moustache or something or, you know what I mean...like that. On
a projected level it's there and it hurts you or it makes you
feel good and it has reality...total reality. You always have to
say that. And that's determined by your goodness, by how well
you keep your vows. How well you check yourself (tun drup),
please, not twice a day, not once a day (laughter), okay, (tun
drup), okay? Okay. And and you have to add that. Then you can
say to Jay Hahn, "okay, now we'll go on". Yeah.

(student, Jay: (unclear) (laughrer)fine distinction (laughter)
in this school,)

Oh, (lek pa che way chun kor) (laughs)

(student, Jay: In this school...I'm not talking about experience
of the time now)

Okay.

(student, Jay: The structure of time itself is also taken as a
projection?)

Yeah, there's a big debate about time...he's asking about time.
(b: Abhidharma) has a beautiful debate about time in it, you
know...all these different viewpoints about time. It's one
viewpoint about time that says, you know, really the past is
coming at you and the future's leaving you behind and, you
know...yeah...in this school, time is also a projection. In the
in the Prasangika School, yeah. Time is also a projection
here...because it's a thing...because it exists.

(student: They they construe that as a thing, like?)

Sure. It's a changing thing.

(student, Jay: I'm not I'm not talking about experience of time
now. I'm talking about (unclear))

Time itself? Yeah, they'd say a changing thing, yeah.

(student: I'm sur...isn't it a concept?)

Huh?

(student: Isn't it a concept?)

I think you'd say it's a concept, and therefore it's a changing
thing.

(student: It's not a changing thing.)

In Min...Middle...in Prasangika. In Prasangika.

(student: It's a concept?)

Yeah. Why not?

(student: Because of the...)

Why not?

(student: A changing concept...)

An idea...sure...all concepts change in Prasangika. (De men du
che)...that's the meaning (de man du che). (Suk she pa den...
chu da ye da du che den pa che nyi). All things divide into
changing things and unchanging things. (Du che nya yi na suk she
pa den pa du che sum), and if you divide changing things

(student: Does space change?)

Huh? No.

(student: Empty time change?)

The concept of empty space changes. Empty space doesn't change.
Quote...quote "empty space" changes. Empty space doesn't change.

(student: What about empty time?)

How's that? Huh?

(student, Jay: I'm not talking about flow of time now (laughs)
I'm talking about (laughter) (laughs))

How can you talk about the flow of time independent...how can you
talk about time independent of the flow in time? (laughter).
You you just flunked down to Abhidharma (laughs) (laughter) you
know, partless moment of time. By the way, when they speak of
"partless", sometimes they extend it to time. They say, they say
partless means...their their idea of ultimate reality is
something which cannot be divided, even in the mind, physically
nor time sp...time wi...spacially or temporally. And that's
ultimate reality. You know, they believe in, not only in
partless atoms but they believe in unindivisible moments of time.
 Okay. Independent of the flow of time. Okay. (laughter) All
right. The last three questions are are jus...the last last four
questions are just good luck questions, okay, it's to finish the
seven year course on a sacred note, okay? Twen...and these...you
know, these are the four ideas that I would want any student that
said they ever attended a Michael Roach course or an ACI course
would would say, without doubt, without hesitation, they would
give the right answer to these four. Okay. To me they are the
essence of of emptiness or Buddhist philosophy. Twenty eight.
When we say that things are only projection, does that mean that
we can make up anything into what we want it to be?

(students: No)

No. Why or why not?

(student: Because they're forced on you by your karma.)

They are forced upon you by your karma, okay. Can you just
decide this is a hundred dollar bill? I don't
know...try...that's the essence of...and I'm not criticizing, I'm
just saying I grew up with this...that's the essence of the
concept of Christian prayer, okay. I mean it's one of the
fallacies of one part of one concept of Christian prayer that by
that by wishing something it will happen, you see what I mean?

(student, Jay: (unclear))

The only way to make this into a hundred dollar bill is to give
away something.

(students: (unclear))
Yeah, yeah, no, but I mean not by immediately wishing, let's say
that, okay...I'll qualify it by saying, just by closing my eyes
and say "oh god, please make this a hundred dollar bill", you you
discovered the the consequences of that when you were about six
(laughter), you know, and then you lost your belief in religion
and thought that religion couldn't work any more and that you...
there was no heaven. That was a fallicy too. There is a heaven.
 You can get there. Because those things don't work by wish.
You see what I mean? Because they can only work by good karma,
okay. You have to be generous. You have to practice the six
perfections, you have to keep your vows and check them once a
day?...twice a day?...or

(students: Six times)

(Tun drup)? (laughter) Okay. You hafta you hafta do that, okay?
That's the only way to get this to turn into a hundred dollar
bill, but not just by wishing it. Saying it's a projection is
not meant to imply that you can just make it anything you want.
Okay. You're at the mercy of your projections of your karma of
of whatever seeds you planted there, you must reap the results,
unless you do a really good purification or something...okay, or
a really good rejoicing, okay...or something like that, okay.
Does the fact that...oh by the way, the question before that
said, what's the Middle Way School...oh yeah, you know that.
Okay. Twenty-nine. Does the fact that things are only
projections mean that leading an ethical way of life is
unimportant?

(students: No, (laughter))

No I mean...you see...when we started the seven years you would
not have giggled in the right place. (laughter) Okay? (laughs)
 You would have said, "hum". You know what I mean? I mean,
that's a big compliment...I take it as a big compliment, you
know, if you start laughing when a teacher gets up and says,
"because ev...everything is emptiness you can engage in any kind
of monkey business you want", th...if you start laughing there,
you should laugh those guys out of the country, okay. (laughter)
Go back, okay, you're wearing some nice clothes, but go back.
(laughter) You know, you know. Don't don't say that to me.
I...that's a very bad viewpoint, okay? That's a ridiculous
viewpoint. Because things are empty I must keep my vows, okay.
Because things are empty I must practice the most powerful
practices I can...because things are empty, okay. I must keep my
vows, all right. Okay. Thirty. Why does the Consequence,
meaning Prasangika, right...presentation of the meaning of
emptiness have especially important implications in our own
search for enlightenment? I mean, it's the only way to get
enlightened, okay? If things were not empty we'd be in trouble.
If things were not being created by your projections forced on
you by your sweet, virtuous behavior of the past, then you'd be
in trouble. You could never become a Buddha. And it, you know,
it's easy to talk about it with physical things and events in
your life, but don't forget, it also applies to the state of your
mind. Whether or not you ever wake up and get to view your own
mind as being totally pure, also is a projection. Arhats, people
who've just reached nirvana, are projecting a mind state which is
pure...it has no more mental afflictions. You see? Their virtue
is forcing on them an experience of their own thoughts which is
totally pure. You see? That's also a projection. To wake up
one morning and not hear a single negative thought in your mind
for the whole morning

(student: Wow)

Which is called nirvana, (laughter)...no, that's the definition
of nirvana...right? To hear that...to hear your mind be that way
is also a projection. And you can only get there by keeping your
vows, okay. But don't ever check them more than once or twice a
day, okay (laughter). And if, and and and don't keep that
book...it's a real hassle. Okay. Takes a whole thirty seconds I
think, or or forty-five seconds, you know. Okay. Don't have
time for that. Thirty one. Last question. Last thing in the
class, okay. This is like when you just when you finished your
Geshe...some of you guys know...the...when you finish your Geshe,
you know, seven days of very painful examinations (laughs), you
know, and the last question they come and you say, you know, the
guy says, "it's impossible for all sentient...you know, "is
it...what is it...(sen jin ten je sang gya ya tang) means, "oh,
you telling me it's possible for everybody to get enlightened,
you know, to turn into a Buddha", and then go, (unclear)
(laughter), you know, they never even, and then everybody screams
and throws their hats up in the air...it's really cool. It's
like graduating from West Point or something like that. Okay.
(laughter) Anyway. No, people scream...you know when they just
made a Geshe 'cause you can hear all through the monastery, even,
you know...I think there's even some Sera Je Geshes (laughter)
and and and you hear this noise, you hear this screaming from
from about, you know, half a mile away you can hear this
screaming, and you say, "oh great, somebody just finished", you
know. It's very cool. Okay. Anyway. The Heart Sutra says that
the real goal of Buddhism is to...Buddhism is to quote "stop the
process of aging and death through, quote, stopping our
ignorance." (Marikpa sepa mepa ne gashi me, gashi sepay pardu
yang me do). Okay. Is this a literal or a figurative statement?

(students: Literal)

Literal (laughter) (laughs). Yea. (laughs) We'll stop there.
Okay. (laughs)

(prayer: short mandala)

(prayer: dedication)

Okay. Thank you. Thank you for...what do you call it...humoring
me (laughter) all this time. (laughter) (laughs) All right.




             Course XV: What the Buddha Really Meant, nov-dec 1998, nyc
                               RAW TRANSCRIPT



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