ACI 15 «Что на самом деле имел в виду Будда», занятие 7

Class 7
Transcribed by: Karen Becker.5

(cut)

Really...actually I don't know if you know this...we finished off
the sutra, okay? So, what sutra?

(students: (b: Commentary on the True Intent)

It's called the (b: Commentary on the True Intent) in which the
Buddha explains his other sutras. Okay. So it's the sutra in
which the Buddha explained his other sutras, and we got down to
understanding more about which of the three wheels is figurative
and which is literal and we went through all the different
schools...the two schools on it, the two Mahayana Schools, which
is Mind Only and Middle Way, and we finished all that, and and
now actually Je Tsongkapa moves on to another...to new territory.
 He's moving on to the commentaries from ancient India over which
over which a thousand years of time they explain the contents of
that sutra, okay, so certain great Pandits or thinkers of ancient
India took the trouble to explain that sutra. Then Je Tsongkapa
points out that the the greatest one perhaps is (Tokme). Say
(Tokme) (repeat) which (Pakpa) (repeat) (Tokme) (repeat), which
is Arya Asanga, you know. Arya meaning someone who's seen
emptiness directly, okay. So he says the, the first person, or
or the main person who's commenting on the sutra is is Asanga,
okay, and then he proves it, okay, he's not satisfied just to say
that. So in your reading the first thing Je Tsongkapa will do is
to show, like...three, four five places where Arya Asanga refers
directly to that sutra, to in explaining his beliefs, he refers
directly to the sutra frequently, and Je Tsongkapa gives you some
beautiful examples. And those short quotations are very sweet,
and we don't have time to go through them. I mean, they give
five characteristics of emptiness which are really cool, they
mention five...Geshe Thubten Rinchen went through every one in
detail, it's really beautiful...you have to get the video, okay.
Then he mentions the eight consciousnesses. You know, normally
we only talk about six...Mind Only School talks about eight, and
then Geshe Thubten Rinchen went into a long schpeil about that,
which we don't have time to do here, but you should try to hear
the audio tapes or get the video tapes. And then after that, he
says, "by the way, you know Arya Asanga was a...what do you call
it...stenographer?"...how do you say, he was taking dictation.

(student: Right)

Yeah, from?

(students: Maitreya)

Maitreya, okay? So, you know there's a big fight about whether
these books were...I mean fight among Western scholars, who wrote
the books, you know...Buddhists, we say that Arya Asanga went to
Maitreya's paradise...how far is that?

(student: Right here) (laughter)

Huh?

(student: Right here)

How far is it from the dog who was...had his bottom half cut off
and he wasn't to, to where to where you could meet...was it
Maitreya? How far is that? I mean, if it's in the same place,
okay. I mean if it's in the same place. I mean, Arya Asanga can
sit in this class and write down Maitreya's words if your karma
is good enough, right, and would be the guy sitting next to you
or the lady sitting next to you would be Maitreya, and you would
just say, you know, could I copy your notes or something, okay
(laughter) (laughs) and okay, if your karma was good enough,
okay, you wouldn't have to go anywhere. Okay, it's not like he
had to take a big trip or anything like that, okay. And the
books are extraordinary. They form much of the...the five great
books of Maitreya, they're called, and they form much of the
curriculum of a Tibetan monastery. Two of them are written from
the Middle Way point of view. Three of them are written from the
Mind Only point of view. And and Je Tsongkapa points out that
even in the ones that were written from the Middle Way point of
view, Arya Asanga is still using that sutra as his weapon, you
know...he's still hung up on this sutra, so he says, Arya
Asanga's obviously basing his whole work from Maitreya on this
sutra, okay. On this sutra in which the Buddha explains his
other sutras. In so doing, Arya Asanga reinvents or...what do
you say?...re re resusitates the Mind Only School. Okay. He's
been called the Innovator, right, there're two great Innovators,
and then people say he began the Mind Only School. Geshe Thubten
Rinchen corrected us. He said, the guy who began the Mind Only
School was?

(students: Lord Buddha)

Lord Buddha in the in the chapter in the bon..when the
Bodhisattva axed the question, and then its was sort of dormant
for a while, okay, like two-three hundred years. And then Arya
Asanga came along and and reawakened interest in this book, okay.
 Geshe Thubten Rinchen pointed out, importantly, that often times
Arya Asanga is quoted as "reporting" the views of the Mind Only
School. He says, "I'm reporting the views of the Mind Only
School"...what's that mean?

(students: He doesn't belong to it)

(laughs) He doesn't belong to it, okay, I mean, people think he
belonged to it...he says no, there's many occasions where he says
Arya Asanga is "reporting" the views of the of the Mind Only
School, meaning he's really Middle Way, okay, but he believes
that Mind Only School is useful for comparative purposes, right?
And as you'll see in many of your meditations, if you've been
doing them, a lot of them call upon you to contrast the idea of
the Middle Way School and the Mind Only School on the same idea,
and this helps you clarify what Middle Way means. Because most
of your wrong ideas about Middle Way School are the Mind Only
School. Okay. And and when you study both of them, which is the
function or the purpose of this class, then you're...by the time
you get out of here, your idea of what Middle Way School says
should be much clearer. Because you know what the subtle wrong
ideas of the other Mahayana school are. Okay. And then...and
then you'll be able to clearly...it's very good when you're
teaching and somebody asks you a question and you say, "oh yeah,
that's a wrong idea that the Mind Only School people have and
it's not quite pure Middle Way what you're thinking." You know,
and then it helps people, because you can clarify it, you can
say, "oh that's Middle Way version", and here's the
corresponding..."sorry, "that's the Mind Only version and here's
the corresponding Middle Way version". So it's very helpful for
understanding emptiness, okay? So so in that way Je Tsongkapa
shows us that Arya Asanga has reawakened the Mind Only School and
that he's mainly using that sutra to do so, okay? And that's the
whole first section of tonights class. Then he goes on and says,
how does Arya Asanga get into the (drang nge), okay? How does he
get into (drang nge). What's (drang nge)?

(students: Literal and figurative)

Yeah, literal and figurative, that's what you're studying, okay
(laughs). So you gotta know that. How does he get into it...how
does he move into it? He starts out in a very interesting way.
He's describing emptiness, which in this case is called
"thusness," okay (de kona nyi). Say (de kona) (repeat) (nyi)
(repeat) (de kona hyi) (repeat). He's describing thusness as
something which is...I don't know how to describe it...which is
something free of two extremes. Okay. So he describes emptiness
as being "that thing which is free of two extreme
viewpoints"...extreme meaning wrong, you know, like left-wing and
right wing. Okay. All right. And they ar...they are too they
are too radical, they are both wrong. Okay. One is extreme in
one way and the other is extreme in the other way and they both
have a certain viewpoint about something which is false, and that
object which is free of the ideas of those viewpoints is
emptiness. Okay. And that's how Arya Asanga gets onto onto onto
his subject of emptiness. He's describing emptiness as that
which is free or devoid of those two extremes. Okay. In fact
this is a pretty good description of what? What word? Middle
Way. Madyamika. Okay. Why is Madyamika...why do we call that
school Middle Way? Because they thread a middle path between two
extremes, okay. And that's...I'm gonna start out actually
tonight backwards, okay, Geshe Thubten Rinchen would have said,
"I'll let you go to the Madyamika door for a while and play in
there for a while...then you gotta come back and be Mind Only,
okay?". So, we're gonna go to Middle Way school first. Because
it's very holy. This is one of the most important teachings of
the Middle Way School. And then we'll go back to the Mind Only
version of it...which is not correct, okay? But I think it's
better if you get the right one in your head first. Okay.
Otherwise you might end up, you know, thr...during three year
retreat you'll be a Mind Only School person, okay. Let's see.
Start out with the word...say (ta) (repeat) (ta) (repeat) (Ta)
means "the edge of something", like this is the (ta) of the
projector. It can mean "the end of something", it can mean "the
limit of something". okay? If if for example, you had reached
ultimate, you know, enlightenment, they might name you "Gone to
the Limit", or (Tar Chen), okay. So (Lob sang Tar Chen) means
"pure-minded one who's gone already to the limit," meaning to the
end. Okay. Crossed the finish line, okay. In in in philosophy,
in Buddhist philosophy, (ta) means "an extreme; a wrong idea",
okay. And it's called (ta) because it means "the edge of a
cliff". Okay. If you fall off this edge or if you go over this
edge, you will fall, and your viewpoints, if they wander that
far, will end you up in a hell realm. I mean that's the general
(laughs) explanation, okay? So, in this case (ta) means
"extreme" but extreme in the sense of a cliff. The edge of a
cliff, okay...and you get really hurt if you go either way.
Think of Middle Way as a cliff...a cliff on each side, and you're
like just balancing, you're walking up this mountain, okay,
an...I did it the other week, it was really like that, you know,
like if you go to far that way, you fall thirty feet, if you go
for to far that way you fall a hundred feet, you're like
balancing on these rocks, you know, and that's that's Middle Way.
 That's what Middle Way means. Okay. It's ex..important to
distinguish between (ta) which means "extreme" and (tarn dzin)
which means "holding to an extreme", okay, and I'll write (tarn
dzin). Say (tarn dzin) (repeat) (tarn dzin) (repeat). (Tarn
dzin) means "holding to an extreme; believing in an extreme
view", okay? And they're very careful in the monastery when they
teach this subject to say that the extreme to which this state of
mind is holding, in other words the idea which this state of mind
has in mind, refers to something which doesn't even exist, okay?
All right. Like if you believe in a self-existent pen, then your
mind is holding on to something that doesn't even exist, okay.
Like a two-headed thirty foot purple elephant rampaging through
this cafeteria...this this hall, right now, okay...smashing
people. Bloody massacre, you know, all right? Doesn't...I mean,
it doesn't even exist...never existed, couldn't exist, can't
exist, won't exist, didn't exist, wou...doesn't exist, okay?
That's a self-existent object. That's (ta) That's an example of
(ta). So "extreme" here...you gotta be careful. Extreme means,
in philosophy, "something which doesn't even exist", like to
believe in Santa Clause, what would be the (ta)? Santa Clause.
Okay? And then believing in Santa Clause is (tarn dzin), you
see, holding to an extreme. Okay. Holding to a thing that
doesn't really exist, okay, and you gotta get used to that.
Okay. There's a big difference between "extreme" and a view
where you hold an extreme, and in Buddhism when you hold to an
extreme in this sense, you're holding to something that?
Doesn't even exist and never existed, and in fact that holding is
what causes you all your suffering. All your suffering comes
from...I mean it'd be a little more bearable if all our suffering
came from a mis-sight...a misconception about something that did
exist, but it's not that. All of our suffering comes from
thinking...believing in something that never could exist, you
see, I mean it's sort of a a ...joke, a cruel joke by reality,
you know, that all of your death, your growing old, all the
suffering you've ever experienced in this life, came from
believing in something that couldn't exist, doesn't exist, didn't
exist, won't exist...you see what I mean? It's kind of a cruel
joke...it's not just misunderstanding something, it's believing
in something that was never there. Okay. You gotta get used to
that. That's (ta), okay. There are two forms of (tarn dzin),
okay, and I'm gonna give you the Madyamika version first...by the
way in both schools they have the same name, okay. Say (dron
dok) (repeat) (dron dok) (repeat). This is a tough one...no, not
so tough, okay. We've made up a word for it which is "concocting
things". I I was translating it during Thubten Geshe Thubten
Rinchen's class as "overrating something", but overrating doesn't
give you the right idea. I'll tell you why. When I say you
concocted an idea about something, the...the implication is that
the thing doesn't exist at all, you see...he's "concocting" some
charges against this guy, but, but the guy is totally innocent,
you see..."concoct" means to make something where there is
nothing, you know, to invent something falsely. All right. And
that's what (dron dok) means, okay? (Dron dok) means "to see
something there which never was there, never will be there, never
could be there". To say "over-rating" something is a little
different, isn't it. "Over-rate" means "the thing is a problem,
but you're making it bigger". That would be to imply that the
thing exists and you're making it bigger or smaller or something
like that...that's not the point here. The point is that this
viewpoint, or this way of thinking, or this misperception, thinks
it sees something there when there's absolutely nothing there,
okay, and that's...you have to get used to that. Yeah?

(student: I was wondering if it was (unclear))

You could say...

(student: totally totally nothing)

Yeah. Making it up, okay. The the main point is, where there is
nothing, you are making something. Okay. That's the main thing,
okay. We asked, you know, we had this great scholar tied down to
his bed in his room, he was teaching on his bed, and and we said,
"what does (dron dok) means anyway...I've never seen any word
like that...any other word like that". (Dok) means to "apply
something" or "to label something". But what is (dro)"...and he
had a very interesting explanation, and he says, "I'll tell you
the oral tradition"...so I'm passing on now an oral
tradition...this is not written down anywhere that I'm aware of,
and it's probably one of those oral tr...you know...it's a real
oral tradition, okay...anyway, (dro), the word (dro) means
"feather". Like a feather on a bird, okay, (dro pur) means "a
feather on a bird" and he says (dron dok) means to apply a
feather and it refers to the act of fabricating an arrow. So
originally all you have is a stick and a feather, and then by
stripping up the feather and putting glue on it and sticking on
there, you have fabricated a new thing called an arrow. Okay.
So (dron dok) means "sticking on the feather", means "to make
something where there's nothing there". It means to trump up
something or to make up something, or to to concoct something,
okay...feather making...feather feather sticking, all right. And
that's how Geshe Thubten Rinchen explained it, which is kind of
cool...I've never seen it anywhere else, okay. That's (dron
dok). So making something where there was nothing before, okay.
It's brother is (kurn dep), which is, we could say, "discounting
things". Say (kurn dep) (repeat), opposite of (dron dok), say
(dron dok)

(students: (dron dok))

(Kern dep ) (repeat) (dron dok) (repeat) Okay. (Kern dep) means
"the opposite", so what would that be?

(student: (unclear) when there is something)

Yeah, to say there's nothing when there really is something,
okay. So (kern dep)...classic (kern dep) would be, "oh this guy
is a...has no compassion, when they really do have compassion,
this guy's not a bodhisattva when they really are a bodhisattva"
or something like that. That would be (kern dep) okay. Those of
you who do (so jong), you know, it would be like (pa pay gen den
la kur yin dep pa), in the (chi shat) which means to "discount
Aryas"...you know, "oh he's no arya, he couldn't be an arya" or
something like that. Okay. It means to...something...somebody
really is something, somebody really does have a high spiritual
quality, somebody really is an arya, and you say "nah, they're
not". Okay. Couldn't be, okay. That's called (kurn dep). To
say there's nothing when there is something, right? So (dron
dok) means "to say there is something when there isn't anything,
when there really isn't anything", and (kurn dep) means to say
"there's nothing there when there really is something there",
Yeah?

(student: What's that got to do with emptiness?)

We're gonna get to it...she says "what's that got to do with
emptiness"...we're about to get there, okay. Now, Madyamika way,
okay. I'll answer her, Robin, first in the Madyamika way. Let's
see here. Concocting thing means, does this pen...sorry...does
this cylinder exist from it's own side? Excuse me...
(students: What school are we in?)

Good. What school are we in (laughs) okay...good question.
Okay. Ah, let's say, Mind Only School.

(student: yeah)

Yes it does. Does it have its' own identity?...from it's own
side?

(students: No. Yes...Mind Only?)

Mind Only? Yeah, it does

(students: Yeah)

Because it?

(students: Exists by definition)

Exists by definition. It's the definition of existing by
definition, okay. It exists from its' own side; it has its' own
identity. I did not make up this pen. It's a pen from its' own
side. If a dog took it in his mouth he would be chewing on a?

(students: Pen)

Pen. (laughs) okay, all right, not a cylinder...that he
perceives as a chewable thing, all right, I mean...that that
means it's coming from it's own side, I mean that's already's
kind of crazy, right, but that's what people say and that's what
people believe, okay, so...if I say...oh, Middle Way
School...does it exist from its' own side? Does it have its' own
identity

(students: no)

From it's own side?
(students: No)

Does it have its' identity?

(students: No)

Oh...yeah, the one you give it, how's that? Okay. You have to
say, does it have its own identity from its own side. You say,
no. Does it have an identity? Sure. Wh...from where?

(students: From my mind)

(laughs) From your mind. Okay. Because you are compelled by?

(students: Karma)

Your karma. So if you don't like the way your world is, clean up
your act, okay. That's all. I mean that's Buddhism in a
nutshell. And that's the way you should explain emptiness, okay.
 Anyway, Middle Way School, now...remember I'm gonna explain
Middle Way School. Is there a a pen that has its own identity
coming from its own side in my hand?

(students: No)

Do you sometimes think there is?

(students: Yes)

Yeah, that's (tarndzin). That's (dron dok) Okay. Because it is
holding onto a a mythical, imaginary, non-existent pen that has
its own identity coming from its own side. Can you imagine that
false object?

(students: Yes)

Oh yeah, you do all the time. Can you really perceive it? No
'cause it doesn't exist. You can see, you can perceive the
mental image of it, the way you can perceive the mental image of
a huge pumpkin crushing the twin towers, oh yeah, I got it, you
know. I mean, you'd have a mental image of a pen from its own
side, and that's all you're ever seeing when you think there's a
pen out there, okay, but but there's no reality corresponding to
what you are imagining, okay, there is no pen which has its own
identity from its own side, okay. You are grasping to something
that doesn't even exist. You are making something there when
there is no such thing there, and that's (dron dok)...so get used
to it. In Middle Way School to think that your boss is a bad
person from his own side and not because you screwed up and made
some lousy karma, and you're forcing yourself to see yourself
(laughs) see him, okay, that's (dron dok). (Dron dok) is the
basis of all your suffering, okay? To believe that bad events in
your life from your boss to traffic jams, to taxes, to the
weather, to your job, to your health, to believe that they're all
coming from some other place is (dron dok), 'cause there is no
other place, okay...that doesn't even exist, okay? From whom?...
a nasty God? Random...what-do-you-call-them...beginning of the
world...big bir...big bangs,

(students: Big bangs)

You know, I mean that...Shantideva says, "Okay, I'll give you
some choices. Random big bang. What made the big bang? Oh,
maybe another random big bang. You know (laughs), I mean,
scientists now say maybe there was a second...a first one, and
what we see is the second one (laughs) okay, which
is...duh...then there must be a third one, right? You knew it
had to come. And then, and the other idea is there's some God
who's made at you and he's creating traffic jams and cancer and
aids and he really does love you but you've been bad, so here
(laughs), you know, okay (laughs) okay, I mean it doesn't...
neither one makes much sense, okay? That's (dron dok).
Believing that there's some kind of...that's one..that's another
kind of (dron dok), but anyway, but this (dron dok) is thinking
that there's a pen out there that I'm not responsible for. Okay.
 That I didn't make through my good deeds or my bad deeds, okay?
 That's all. And that that's (dron dok). According to?

(students: Middle Way School)
Middle Way School and it applies to every object in the universe.
 To your mind, to your thoughts, to your toenails, to your
toejam, Sikes, to (laughter) to Pluto, you know, to everything,
okay. To the fact that gravity pulls things down...I mean to to
all kinds of things, it's true of all of them. Gravity itself is
your projection. You know, if if you had better karma, you could
fly, and karma...and gravity wouldn't work that way, okay. E
even physical so-called "laws" are also projections and they can
be defied by good karma. Okay. People don't have to die, all
right? Those are all projections. Yeah?

(student: Would you say that (dron dok) is the verb of the
object of (dun chi)?

She says, "is (dron dok) the verb and the object would be a (dun
chi). (Dun chi) means "a mental image of something which you
have experienced", so it it always refers to something which
exists...you see what I mean? So (dun chi) and a (kun tak) are
not quite the same thing, and it's a beautiful difference. So,
(Kun tak) means "existing or non-existing mental fabrications".
And (dun chi) means "a mental fabrication from something you have
experienced". And then (dra chi) is another kind of fabrication
like that. So not quite, not quite the same. You could say
(kurn)...you could say (dron dok) would be focused towards some
kind of a a mental image, maybe a (kuntak) or something like
that, you see? A false mental image. The mental image of a of a
pumpkin crushing the Twin Towers. Okay. Something like that.
Yeah?

(student: Could the object of (dron dok) be (gak ja)?)

Exac...uh, let me think about that...yeah, I'd say that...I'd say
that's pretty cool. (Gak ja) meaning the thing that emptiness is
empty of. Non-existent self-existent thing. All right. That
never existed. You gotta get used to that. Anyway, that's (dron
dok) according to?

(students: Middle Way School).

Middle Way School. Okay. Now (kurn dep). (Kurn dep) is
remember it's saying that something's not there when it really is
there. And the (kurn dep) version in in Madyamika is where
somebody gives you a bad teaching on emptiness and says,
"everything is an illusion" for example, and then you say, "I can
do whatever I want", morality doesn't matter, because it's all an
illusion. You see, that's (kurn dep). That's that's discounting
the laws the karma and its consequences because someone gave you
a bad teaching on emptiness. It's a state of mind that says, if
things don't exist the way I thought they did before, then they
don't matter and they don't exist at all. That's a really really
sick ultimate sick idea in in Buddhism, and and people go around
teaching it a lot, right? "Oh, everything's empty, you know, go
do your tantric stuff, you're liberated", you know what I mean,
like nothing matters. Good karma and bad karma don't matter
'cause they're just an illusion. That's like the stupidest
conclusion you could draw from the real meaning of emptiness,
right. It's like the most stupid thing you could say if you
really understood emptiness, okay. So, so (kurn, kurn dep) is
where you're saying something doesn't exist which really does
exist. Does karma and its consequences exist? Oh yeah. Okay.
If you teach somebody that things are empty so karma and
consequences don't matter, that's (kurn dep). Okay. Now I'll
give you the classic Middle Way idea, okay? Middle Way is
objecting to two extremes. What's the first one?

(student: (dron dok))

Yeah, (dron dok)...what's it say? If something exists it must
exist from its own side, okay. If my boss is bad, he must be bad
from his own side. If the people I don't like are are real, then
they're...the thing about them I don't like must be coming from
them. I can't be me. The last person in the world that would
want this is me. It can't be my fault, okay. And then you can
have a?

(student: Mental affliction)

Mental affliction (laughs) okay. Mental affliction depends on
that way of thinking. You can't have a mental affliction if you
don't think like that. The converse is once you start
understanding emptiness, you can't maintain your mental
afflictions. 'Cause you realize it's you. Okay? I mean, you
can hit yourself if you want...I don't know if that's a mental
affliction, you know, "stupid head", you know, (laughter)
(laughs) okay, but you can't be angry at anybody else in the
universe any more 'cause they're just your karma playing out that
you...that you collected. So if you don't like it, stop getting
angry, okay? That's all. All right. So, the first, the first
half of the equation, Middle Way School, the stupid idea, (dron
dok) if something exists, it should exist from its own side. It
should exist the way I see it, okay. If something exists, it
should exist the way I think it does, okay. We'll put it in
Tibetan. Yeah, we're still in the Middle Way, okay? We didn't
get to Mind Only yet. By the way there's not much more Tibetan
tonight. I think just one sentence or something (laughs)

(student: Figurative or literal?)

(laughs) Heh heh heh. I said "or something". That's literal.
(laughs). By the way, you should check it during the day, okay.
Whenever you get upset, you're you're having a ignorance attack,
okay? I mean, if you're in this class, seventh year now you know, I mean,
that's...if you don't come out of here with
anything else, you should un...you know...when you have your next
mental affliction, start thinking about emptiness. You know, see
if you can treat the mental affliction with the ultimate
antidote, okay? It's the only antidote according to Buddhism
that can remove those mental afflictions, you know. Start
thinking about the emptiness of what you're angry at. Okay. Say
(yu na) (repeat) (ranggi) (repeat) (tsennyi kyi) (repeat) (drup
gu) (repeat). (Yu na) means "if something exists...okay, (na)
means "if", (yu) means "exists"...okay, if something exists,
(ranggi tsennyi kyi drup) means "it should exist by definition".
(Gu) means "it should"; (ranggi tsennyi kyi drup) means "by
definition, from its own side", okay, or you can say, sometimes
they say it in Madyamika, "the way I see it now", okay. If
something exists, it has to exist the way I always thought it did
since I was a kid, okay. That's (dron dok) or (kurn dep)?

(students: (Dron dok))
(Dron dok). It's making up some requirement when the thing never
was that way. It's not true. There's no such thing, okay. It's
not true that if if things exist they have to exist the way you
always thought they did, okay. What? From their own side. If
only the other people at work would would come to see that he's
bad. There's some people like him...I can't believe it...they
just don't have enough information yet. You know, I have to try
to spread the good word, you know (laughter) and you do (laughs)
you know, you know, you think he's a good boss, he's not...look
what look what he did to all these people, and you what I mean,
and you you try to convince them that he's self-existently bad.
Okay. From his own side and that their perceptions are non-
pramanas. Okay. They're not having a good perception of him,
all right. That's that's part of having a mental affliction's
that you want to prove it to everybody, you know what I mean?
Okay. (laughs) That's (ranggi tsennyi kyi drup...gu) okay. It
must be like that, okay. And then what's the what's the
opposite? The opposite is (kurn dep). What's the (kurn dep)
brother of this in Madyamika? If it doesn't exist the way I
thought it did, it doesn't exist at all, okay, which is? You
asked...these are very famous in Madyamika. Say (ranggi)
(repeat) (tsennyi kyi) (repeat) (ma drup na) (repeat) (me gu)
(repeat). Okay. (Ranggi tsennyi kyi ma drup na) means "and if
it doesn't exist by definition, meaning if it doesn't exist from
it's own side, or it doesn't exist the way I always thought it
did", then (me gu), it can't exist at all. It must not exist at
all. And what's the most popular object of this viewpoint? The
laws of karma and consequences. Morality. Okay. If
everything's an illusion, then it doesn't matter what I do. I'm
free to do whatever I want, okay, which is the ultimate bad view,
okay. Which is the ultimate misunderstanding of emptiness. All
right? Total...backwards misunderstanding, right? Okay. So, if
it doesn't exist the way I always thought it did, then it's just
nothing, okay. Then it doesn't matter. It's just a...if it's an
illusion, it doesn't exist. If it's an illusion, it doesn't
matter. What does Buddhism really say? Because it's an
illusion, it does matter, okay? (laughs) All right. Because
karma and its consequences are an illusion you god damn well
better follow them. Okay. That's what it really says, okay.
Some people water it down...they say "even though it's an
illusion, you have to follow it. Forget that. Because it's an
illusion you have to follow it. Okay. You have to obey the laws
of karma, all right. You gotta think about that, okay. If
things weren't empty you wouldn't have to obey the laws of
karma...that's what it means, okay? Because things are empty,
you are compelled, you must follow the rules of karma. Because
anything can become anything. Your hand can become a paw in five
minutes, you know, if you don't play your cards right (laughs)
okay, yeah, I mean because it's empty, you know. If it wasn't
empty there'd be no problem. Then you could do what you want,
okay. But because it is empty, you better follow your vows.
Okay. All right. Yeah?

(student: (unclear) existentialism/mihilism)

It's it's sometimes translated as "existentialism/nihilism"...I
think it's a dumb translation. (laughter) I like...the nihilism
sounds okay to me...because nihilism kinda means "thinking
nothing matters" or something like that...I like that, that's
pretty close, but existentialism...I I don't know. Yeah?

(student: (unclear) Everything exists)

Well, everything does exist...if you don't think so come up, let
me drill your teeth, okay (laughter) (laughs) yeah.

(students: The belief (unclear) is wrong)

Yeah, that it that it that it exists from it's own side, not that
it exists, okay. By the way, sometimes the extremes are called
"believing things exist" and "believing things don't exist" which
means?...believing things exist by definition and believing that
they don't exist if they don't exist by definition. Okay.
Sometimes they're called "the extremes of thinking that
everything is permanent and they or unchanging, and the extreme
of thinking that everything has stopped" (che ta) and (tak ta)
okay. What does that mean? I'm not gonna...it's not my goal
tonight to talk about that, but these are views which are
necessary consequences of the other views. And and it's good to
know that...if you're gonna study Buddhism seriously, okay.
There's a there's a extreme view called "everything is
unchanging" and there's an extreme view called "everything has
stopped", okay. What does that mean? It means, if your first
wrong view is correct, which said what? The pen exists from its
own side...well then the pen could never change, you see? It's a
consequential view from the first view. If it's true that the
pen comes from its own side, then it must be the case that this
pen could never change. Could never run out of ink, okay. It
can only run out of ink if your perception starts to slow down
and stop of it having ink...that's how it runs out of ink. It
doesn't run out of ink because the water in it stops or something
like that, okay. It run...by the way, does the water in it stop?



(students: yes)

Yeah. But why? 'Cause your perception for water ran out. And
you gotta think of it that way, okay. So if it...so, if you
believe that this thing exists from its own side, then what
you're saying in effect is that it could never change. What's
that got to do with you? If you exist from your own side, youse
dead. You might as well go out and have a Bud. (laughter) You
know what I mean? No hope of becoming a tantric deity in this
life, okay. If you existed from your own side. But since you
don't, there's hope. You're empty. You can become anything.
You just have to shift your karma, change your karma, follow your
vows, keep your book, okay, do (ten duk) okay, which is the same
thing, okay...real (ten duk), okay. (laughs) Yeah, heh
heh...okay...oh...okay, that's...so, just so your know,
you...when they say the "extreme of unchanging" (tak ta), it
means that. It's the necessary consequence of the first wrong
view which is that it exists from its own side. (Che ta),
believing that everything has stopped is the necessary
consequence of believing that if it didn't exist from its own
side, it couldn't exist at all. So what're you saying,
everything has discontinued?, you know, should we cancel
tomorrow, New York Times...we should call them up, tell them to
stop working, okay. I mean, that's that's another version of
these extreme views. Okay. (unclear) Now we go to the Mind
Only School okay...since you don't look too exhausted. Would
they explain (dron dok) in the same way? Would they say, "you
are concocting stuff with this cylinder when you say there's a
pen here that comes from it's own side...would they say that?

(students: No)

Not at all. Okay. Never. Because they believe?

(students: It does come from its own side)

It does come from its own side. From its own unique way of
being, with its own identity. Do you guys believe that?

(students: No. Yes)

Question (laughter) (laughs)...it's the same question as saying
"have you had a mental affliction today", okay. It's the same
question. I could have said, "have you had a mental affliction
today" 'cause if you did, you you were holding something as
existing from its own side. It's proof that you were holding it,
it's proof that you're Mind Only. Don't go saying you're
Madyamikas, okay, if you still have mental affliction, okay? All
right. So, here's how Mind Only School people say. How
many...they they like to divide stuff up before they give an
answer, right? No? (laughter) What's their favorite turning of
the wheel?

(students: The Third Turning of the Wheel)

Called?

(students: Fine Distinctions)

Fine distinc...we gotta make distinctions here. Okay. They like
to divide things up. Okay. They goes "let's divide things
into"...those three things, okay. what? (Kun tak)?

(students: (shenwang) and (yongdrup))
Shenwang, yongdrup, okay. (Kun tak) meaning "imaginary stuff".
Okay. Constructs, okay. (Shenwang) meaning?

(students: Changing things)

Changing things or dependent things. (Yong drup) meaning?

(students: Emptiness)

Or you could have said the fact that the one...these don't exist
with these...which is their (yong drup), okay. You could have
done it that way, all right. Now when they talk about (kurn
dep), sorry (dron dok), seeing something there when there's
nothing there...they restrict it to (kun taks), okay. They
restrict it to imaginary things. Give me a (kun tak) that does
exist.

(student: the pen)

How 'bout Robin? How 'bout car? How 'bout pen? Okay. Ideas.
Ideas about things. How 'bout "the pen is blue", you see what I
mean? Those are all ideas about...those are constructions in
your mind about things. You know, is this lady with red hair and
a certain kinda coat and a certain kinda look, is that Robin from
its own side by definition...you know, does everybody who bumps
into her street say "oh Robin, hi" (laughter) okay, I mean, if
she existed from her own side by definition, if the if the idea
Robin or the name Robin, or the or her ca...her being called
Robin existed by definition, then everybody who ever met her'd
say, "oh hi Robin, nice to see you", okay? And they don't.
That's proof that that construct doesn't exist from its own side.
 So out of all the stuff in the world, in the Mind Only School,
only one thing doesn't exist by definition. That's?

(students: (kun taks))

(Kun taks). Okay? (Kun taks). Give me an example. Robin.
Okay. What's a more subtle example? The fact that Robin is
called Robin. Okay. Does that exist from its own side? Is it
necessarily true? Is it necessarily true that this is called a
pen?

(students: No)

Not at all. Shakespeare said?

(students: A rose by any other name)

Yeah, a rose by any other name would smell the same, okay. It
doesn't matter. Call it whatever you want...it's still gonna
work the same. Okay. It...the fact that it's called a pen is
not something self-existent. It doesn't come from it's own side.
 It doesn't exist by definition. It doesn't have...it's not
called pen from its own side. This is, by the way, if you think
about it, flirting very close to the Madyamika idea. And so Mind
Only is very cool. This part of Mind Only is very cool. It
might even get you up to Middle Way. Oh hey...that's why he
taught it. (laughter) (laughs) Okay. I mean that's why Lord
Buddha taught it, because it's very close to the to the right
view. Okay. This particular part of Mind Only School...this,
the fact that this thing is called a pen doesn't come from its
own side. That's very close to saying, hey, you know what, this
thing is just your projection, okay. So very close, it's very
cool. Lord Buddha in this side of the Mind Only School is trying
to...that's probably where he ejects you to the Middle Way School
(laughter), you know what I mean? How'd he go from that idea to
the Middle Way School, okay...from that little corner of the Mind
Only School, okay. That's that's one way of describing how this
pen doesn't come from its own side...I'm sorry..."pen" doesn't
come from its own side.

(student: Cylinder)

Pen.

(student: But the cylinder...but Mind Only would say)

"The cylinder" is a (shen wang), please. (Cylinder) is a (kun
tak). Got it. "Car" is a (kun tak) "A car" is a (shen wang).
Okay. Big difference. Big difference. And that gets you really
sexally close to...(jor long chu chong), okay, the last hours
before you see emptiness directly when you understand that you're
just watching a projection, okay. Yeah?

(student: But Mind Only still holds onto the colors and the
shapes being from their own causes, out there, from their own
side, or)

Yeah. He says, "does Mind Only hold on to the idea that the
colors and shapes come from their own causes outside?" Of
course. And they say that "the pen" does too..."the pen". But
not "pen"

(student: This pen)

Okay. "Pen" quote, as a concept, as a construct, as an idea in
your mind is is something that does not come from its own side.
It could have been "piro", you know, it could have been (yu ku).
(laughter) which are...you know, these are different languages
for "pen" okay, same thing. All right. Doesn't matter. So, if
somebody asks you...oh...here we go...this is your actually your
meditation assignment. What's the Middle Way's description of
of (dron dok)ing this pen, making up something where there's
nothing? It comes from its own side. It comes from its own
side. It has its own identity. It's it's anything but my
projection, okay. Now, Mid...Mind Only School...what's the (dron
dok) for this pen?

(students: Pen called pen)

Thinking that quote "pen" is something that applies to it by
nature, by definition, no matter what, you know. This is by the
way the the whole basis of prejudice, or or intolerance, you
know, you know...I grew up my...in my in my house we called that
kinda knife "a butter knife", you guys are calling it a "steak
knife", you know, and then you start to get into a fight, you
know what I mean (laughter) really. Okay. To think that that it
should be something by nature because you perceive it that way or
 you grew up with it that way, is the whole basis of of of
intolerance about things. Okay. So, so yeah, Mind Only School
says you are (dron dok)ing it if you think it's called a pen or
from its own side...if it's "pen" from its own side, okay. If
you think that it's pen from its own side. Mi...middle Way
School says? If you think that anything exists from its own
side, you're (dron dok)ing. Okay. Big difference. Now I'll say
it a different way. In the Mind Only School, can you, can you
say that (shen wangs), changing things, exist from their own
side?

(students: No. No. No. Mind Only School?)

Mind Only School.

(students: Yes)

Sure. Yeah, sure. What's the big proof? It has its causes.
You know, it I mean, it it must exist out there because it came
from causes that exist out there. I mean, it's not just existing
out there right now. It came from a whole factory that exists
out there, and the factory that exists out there bought oil from
Iraq that existed out there, and then they came here and
fabricated the plastic that existed out there, and then all those
people existed out there worked on it, and then it became a pen
that exists out there. (laughter) There's so much stuff out
that's exists from its own side that, its gotta exist from its
own side, okay. They just, the they think that proves it even
better, that all this stuff's going on to make it happen, that's
existing out there so the thing exists out there. That's their
main idea, right? When they say...now how about emptiness...does
it exist out there?

(student: No)

From its own side...in the Mind Only School.

(students: Yes. Yes)

Yeah. Yeah it does. Is it just a fabrication of your mind?

(students: No)
No, and it does exist out there. Okay. All right. So in Mind
Only School. So what do you think (kurn dep) would be in the
Mind Only School and if you answer me right you get to have
refreshments, ha ha (laughter)

(student: It's an idea)

Huh?

(student: It's an idea?)

I'll give you a clue. I'll give you a clue, okay. (Dron dok)
was saying that the first of the three groups exists by
definition. Yeah. So (kurn dep) must be about the other two.
And it must say?

(students: They don't exist by definition)

They don't exist by definition. Okay. Cool. Who would hold the
first viewpoint, by the way, according to the Mind Only School?
Who'd be stupid enough to say that this pen is a pen no matter
what, this pen should be called "pen" under all circumstances?

(students: (unclear))

Who would who would say that? Who would think that your boss
should be called "bad boss" from from his own side.

(student: Your ignorance)

Your ignorance. Okay. We don't have to dis...talk about
schools. Your ignorance functions that way. You wanna know how
ignorance functions according to the Mind Only School...oh, it
(dron dok)s, what? Well, first of all it thinks that "bad boss"
should be called "bad boss" forever. From the beginning. What's
the other kinda...do you remember, I don't know as...I don't know
 if anybody remembers...what's the other kind of self-existence
that they talk about in the Mind Only School?
(student: (unclear))

It has a lot to do with basis consciousness.

(student: (unclear) mentally afflicted side of things)

Oh, that's close. Wha...what's that thing about (bak chaks) and
all that?

(students: karmic seeds)

Yeah, that my mind and that pen are coming from the same karmic
seed. Okay. I was nice to somebody, I loaned them a pencil in
the past and now I get to have a pen. (laughter) And that same
action created my mind to be aware of the pen, okay. Those two
things are coming from one karmic seed. Okay. So what does
ignorance think? I'm not responsible for that boss. You know.
I haven't created one karmic seed which got me into this company
and got him into this company too. (laughter) Okay. Impossible.
 Okay. Ignorance is saying that. I'm not responsible for the
things I perceive. I'm mainly responsible for my own mind, okay.
 I I I can accept that. But to say that one karma that I did,
you know, one bad thing I did to somebody, makes me go through
fifteen years of corporate life (laughter) with this object in
front of me, you know, and that it's also creating
that...impossible. Okay. Ignorance says that. And then
ignorance does whatever it wants and then ignorance has to go to
more companies and work harder, okay. One more question and then
you can really have your refreshments. Who would be crazy enough
to hold the second wrong view, you know? (Shen wangs) changing
things and emptiness itself don't exist by definition. They're
only your projections.

(students: Madyamika. Middle Way)

Madyamika. Right. So who's the big enemy of the Mind Only
School?

(students: Madyamika)
And who are they pointing the figure at when they say, "oh
extreme views, (laughter) (laughs)...you crazy Madya...Middle me
Middle Way people. What? The pen doesn't exist? What do you
think the pen doesn't exist? You want me to write on you with
this pen that doesn't exist?" You know what I mean? By the way,
what did they just do? I just did it. Did you notice?

(student: (unclear))

I just did it. I said "you think this thing don't exist at
all...what you want me to write on you with it?" What did the
Middle Way really only say?

(student: They said it's a projection of your karma)

Yeah, they didn't say it didn't exist at all. By the way, the
Mind Only School loves to do this...and get ready for it, okay.
Get used to it. They slip immediate...when they report the
Middle Way's beliefs, they slip immediately from "it doesn't
exist from its own side" to "it doesn't exist at all". So they
go wild, you know, attacking the Middle Way School. "You guys
don't think this pen exist, come down here, let me draw on your
face with it". You know. I didn't say that. All I said was it
didn't exist from its own side. I didn't say I couldn't have a
projection of it making lines on my face. Okay. All right. You
gotta get used to that. The the Mind Only School's gonna try to
st...get this one by you. What do they call...like, they're
gonna try to

(students: Slip one over)

Slip this one by you over and over again, okay. These "you
stupid Madyamikas," you know, "what do you think, this thing
doesn't exist?". Wait a minute. I didn't say that. I just said
it didn't exist out there on its own. Okay. Big difference.
Yeah?

(student: They'd claim that you're a nihilist.)

Oh yeah. They'd say, "you guys have fallen into the extremes".
(student: And all the Hindu schools would be the same argument?)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now you've earned...wait.

(student: (unclear) asking my question later)

Okay. Naw, do it now. We might die in the break.

(student: Well I think that...I would think that one thing that
the Mind Only School would want to ask Madyamika is how they can
explain the phenomena of shared experience.)

Of of what?

(student: Shared experience)

Oh yeah, he says "given what we've said, if I was a Mind Only
School guy, the thing I'd wanna ask the Middle Way School is,
well how do you explain shared experiences. How is it that we're
all having the same...what do you think, we're all having
projections at the same...you think six billion people are
projecting the sun at the same time?

(student: Sure. Yes)

Yes (laughs). Why not. Okay All right. Can six billion people
do one good thing or bad thing together at the same time?

(students: Yeah)

Yeah. Whole countries have done bad things together. Seriously.
 Whole countries have supported an effort to kill millions of
people, stuff like that. And then according to Buddhism, every
person in that country collects a very similar karma. And they
and they can experience those karmas together later, you know, in
a country that is constantly bombed or attacked by other people,
or something like that, okay. Yeah?

(student: Middle Way holds that self (unclear))
Sorry.

(student: Middle Way holds that self-nature (unclear) at all,
right? The thing's mentioned in their argument)

He says "does does Middle Way School say that no self-nature
exists at all?"

(student: (unclear) nothing comes from its own side)

That's better, 'cause I do have a self-nature. I am Michael
Roach. Okay. Because why? Because you you give me that nature,
okay, as I do, okay. Shared experience. But yeah, from it's
own side, nothing exists. (Ranggyi ma drup na me). Yeah.

(student: But you could use the same distinction in the
argument)

Between the

(student: (unclear) Mind Only. Particularly in the future, from
my own my own my own (unclear)

Well, I think that what you're saying is that, we have to be
really careful, because the Mind Only School and the Middle Way
School use the same words, but they mean totally different
things...I think that's what you're boiling down to. You know.
And that's a whole study of itself in the study of Madyamika.
It's the study of of how these terms can mean totally different
things to different schools. And how can you attack somebody if
you're using the word one way and they're using it a different
way. You see what I mean? And that's a that's a whole study.
But basically before you start your argument, you have to say,
"here's what I mean by, you know, existing by definition. What
do you mean by existing by definition?" And then you start from
there, okay. That's the fair way. Okay. Have some refreshments
and then we'll go back to th...Mind Only picking on Middle Way
some more. Okay.
(break)

Time to start. Time to start. (laughter)

(cut)

The other thing is...the volunteer thing has been working very
very very well, I think we gotta 'nother...we got a grant...looks
like we got a grant for the women's entry center, a nice grant,
looks like we got another grant for imaging texts in Russia,
looks like we got another grant for publishing a few books, and
the whole volunteer thing has been going very very well, so, if
you wanna help out, it's Monday nights at five thirty to six
thirty, okay? And it doesn't matter...just come and we'll figure
out how to make you a genius at something, you know, everyone's
really been helping a lot, and and really incredible stuff coming
out, like you know, a whole bunch of beautiful things, like a
whole...Mar...Margie's working on a bunch of thangkas, and and
stuff like that. Very cool. A lot of cool stuff coming out. So
if you have time, you know, you're welcome to come. Okay. I
can't think of anything else. The Arizona thing looks pretty
good. We don't know yet. So keep praying, okay. We said that
in the Mind Only School to (dron dok), right, which is to see
something where there is nothing, would be to say that the fact
that this is called pen is something that should have always
existed forever, from its own side, through its own identity,
which is wrong, right? Because (kun taks) don't exist from their
own side, right? "Pen" does. This pen does, right? It's a
(shen wang). The pen does exist from its own side. But the fact
that this cylinder is called a pen is arbitrary. It's something
that you make up in your mind. It doesn't come from its own
side. Okay. Now how to say that in Tibetan? ...on your
homework...heh heh. Okay, this is concocting something, right,
this is (dron dok), it's making up something where they is no
such thing. What's (kun tak)?

(students: Construct)

Yeah, constructs. Right now, we're talking about thinking of a
pen as a pen. Calling a pen a pen. Okay. That idea. That
construct. That mental idea, okay. That mental picture. That
mental labeling of a, of this cylinder, okay. Is it (ranggi
tsennyi kyi druppa)...does it exist by definition in the?

(students: Mind Only)

Well, it doesn't matter, does it? Okay. Because both schools
would say? It don't exist by definition. It's a concept. It's
something you made up with you own head, okay? By the way, would
both schools say it that way? "Oh it doesn't exist by
definition...it's 'cause just something that you made up"?

(students: No)

No, okay. (laughs) Mi Mi Middle Way School would say it doesn't
exist by definition

(student: 'Cause it never did. No, because it's something that
(laughter) (laughs))

I think they would say because it is something that your mind has
made up, okay? But they don't quite mean the same thing. You'll
figure it out. Okay, anyway. That's the (kun tak). (Kun tak)
means quote "pen", or calling this thing pen. That's not
something that is a God-given right. That's not something which
is automatic. Okay. It's a construct of your mind, okay.
Doesn't exist by definitin. To believe that it does, which means
(dzin pa...yupar dzinpa), to believe that it does exist by
definition, would in the Mind Only School be? (Dron dok).
Cococting something where there is nothing. Okay. Why is that
important, who cares, I mean, why why can't we do some real
Buddhism, why you stand up there talking about philosophy? Okay.
 This is, this is exactly why you suffer, okay, because all day
long you're believing that that guy is bad, he should be called
bad, from his own side. The word "bad" applies to this
experience from its own side. Okay. The word "bad" applies to
this person that I don't like from his own side. Then I can
get...mad, okay, and the madness creates?...more guys like that,
and that's samsara. That's the meaning of (kor wa). Self-
perpetuating thing, okay. Break it, okay? I mean, break it.
Don't make this class something you do at home, you know, ten
minutes before class, and fill out your homework and come and
finish it...use it (laughs) okay? That's the point of the class,
you know. Use it tomorrow at work. Use it this evening with
your fellow students. Okay. Oh sorry. (Dzinpa) means "holding"
or "believing" that (kun taks) which means "constructs" (yupar)
means "exist" (yupar), "exist" (ranggi tsennyi kyi) means "by
definition" and I'll say it again...believing that constructs
could exist by definition is what it is in the?...what
school...Mind Only School to concoct something, or to (dron dok),
okay, one of the two extreme views and the source of your
suffering. There's two more questions about this one. You know,
question number four on your homework says, "describe the
specific idea which according to the Mind Only School is held by
the view of "concocting" something"...you just copy this. Oh it
thinks that constructs exist from their own side...or by
definition. And then the next question says, "how according to
the Mind Only School would you help someone get over this extreme
view?" Supppose someone has this problem of thinking that this
pen comes from it's own...sorry, of thinking that the name is
automatic, okay, how would you get somebody to get over this
problem? How does the Buddha help people in a Mind Only mode?
That's the question. What's he do first?

(student: Makes distinctions)

He splits things up. He says, hey, you can understand anything.
Just split it up. Okay. What? (Kun taks, shen wangs, yong
drups), okay, look...is this pen empty or not? Well, first of
all, is it a (shen wang)?

(student: Yes)

Yeah. Is it a dependent thing? Yeah, it depends on its causes,
okay. It's depending right now on my fingers to hold it up,
okay. Does it have its own emptiness? Of course it has its own
emptiness. Everybody agrees to that...every Buddhist school
agrees that it has some kind of emptiness, okay? Of what?

(student: Of...)
Of being a pen, of being called a pen by definition...from its
own side, God-given right, has to be called a pen, okay...it's
empty of that, it's devoid of that. It doesn't have that, okay?
See how you can understand emptiness? Okay. So don't go
believing that this thing is called a pen from its own side,
okay, don't go thinking that. Otherwise you can't establish its
emptiness which is the absence of that. Okay. That's how you
would help somebody. If you were in the Mind Only
mood...mode?...and (laughter) the student was somebody who
couldn't get Madyamika, well you could help them that way, you
know. Wha...you think this thing has to be called a pen, you
think we can't call it a chewable thing? You know, and then work
at them like that, okay. That's a, that's a way to work on
somebody, okay, if they have that viewpoint. Yeah?

(student: (unclear))

Yeah...uh...yeah. It's it's (dron) it's (dron dok), it's not the
same as (kurn dep). (Kurn dep) and (kun tak) are not the same
one thing, right? (Kurn dep) means "to discount something"; (kun
tak) means "something that you imagine, or you make up".

(student: (unclear) three kinds of (kun taks), two would have
the right point of view)

Oh yeah yeah. We're talking about the wrong one, right? When we
talk about emptiness, yeah, we're talking about the wrong one,
yeah. Sorry?

(student: (unclear))

Sorry?

(student: (unclear))

Sure it could be.

(student: In madyamika?)
Yeah, we can tell them that. (laughter). I mean it might help
push them up to the Middle Way, all right.

(cut)

if from a dog's point of view...you can explain that to them. Is
a dog (shen wang)ing it...is a dog (kun tak)ing it as pen? In
the Mind Only School? You gotta think about it. Okay. (Geshe
Michael snores). No, it's a good question. It's a good
question. Now, here's the opposite...oh sorry, one more
question. Stop that. Who would you accuse of holding that this
pen is called a pen from its own side?

(students: Mind Only)

No. Mind Only School is accusing somebody else, but don't forget
we're in the Mind Only presentation, who's making the
presentation tonight?

(students: Mind Only)

Who? Arya Asanga.

(students: Arya Asanga)

Okay, he's explaining the sutra. He's inventing the Mind Only
School as we speak, okay. He's creating the Mind Only School.
This is the...these are the...he's the founding father of the
Mind Only Sch...the...you are watching the creation of the Mind
Only School. This is how it happened historically. Arya Asanga
was trying to explain what the Buddha meant in that sutra, and
that this is how the Mind Only School started, okay. It's very
cool. You're witnessing the birth of the Mind Only School as we
speak. Okay. Last thing he says about that viewpoint. Who is
he accusing of having this viewpoint?

(students: No one. People who never (unclear) turning the
wheel)

He says...she says, "people of the first turning of the wheel".
You could say that. But mainly it's your own ignorance, okay.
In the Mind Only School this is what ignorance shtick is...this
is what ignorance does for a living, okay. It looks at pens and
thinks they should have been called pens from their own side. It
looks at pens and says "that wasn't created by the same karma
that brought me here to this room", when in fact, it was, okay.
And to hold it to be any other way is ignorance in the Mind Only
School. Okay. Is it like something you can't accept in the
Middle Way School?

(students: No)

No, Middle Way School says the same thing, but do they describe
ultimate meaning of emptiness that way, no. Do they describe it
in a very similar way?

(students: Yes)

Yeah. Okay. That's very cool. Like Mind Only is very cool for
slipping into Middle Way, okay. Okay? Middle Way would say,
yeah it's a projection of your karma, forced on you by your
karma. That's very similar to saying "this pen and me being here
 have come from the same karmic seed". See, very close...very
close. And the more fine you can make these distinctions, the
better your understanding of your own school will be...Madyamika,
okay? So we finished for (dron dok). We finished for concocting
things. We finished describing what it thinks in the Mind
Only...how it sees things in the Mind Only School. We finished
the steps you would take to talk somebody out of it, okay? Hey,
Buddha taught these three things, you know. If you don't accept
this then then you can't establish emptiness...with regard to
(shen wangs), you gotta believe that (kun taks) don't exist,
okay? All right. And then thirdly, who is it that holds this
stupid view?

(students: Your ignorance)

Your ignorance, okay? Who's the...who's the...who's the villain
in the...on the (dron dok) side in the Mind Only School? Your
ignorance. Who's the one who's doing that? Your ignorance.
Okay? Now we're gonna go through the same process for what?

(student: (Kurn dep))

For (kurn dep). For the, for the tendency to believe that
nothing's there when there really is something there, okay. In
the Mind Only School, what would it be? It would be to say that
those other two things...what other two things?

(students: (Shen wangs and yong drups)

(Shen wangs) and (yong drups), okay, dependent things and
emptiness, what?

(students: Don't exist by definition)

Don't exist by definition. Now who'd be stupid enough to say
that?

(students: Middle Way)

How about Middle Way, Nagarjuna, the Buddha, the Dalai Lama, Khen
Rinpoche...you know what I mean (laughs) okay? All right.
That's who'd be stupid enough to say that. (laughs). Would they
be crazy enough to say that things don't exist?...oh I'm trying
to slip one by you...did you getting it...did you get it? Got
it?

(student: (unclear))

Hey, wait a minute. That's not what we said. (laughs) Okay.
Like half of you went for it. Okay. All right. Don't do that.
Okay. Here we go. Okay. Say (shen wang) (repeat) (yongdrup)
(repeat) (ranggi) (repeat) (tsennyi kyi) (repeat) (ma druppa)
(repeat). (Shen wang) (repeat) (yongdrup) (repeat) (ranggi)
(repeat) (tsennyi kyi) (repeat) (ma druppa) (repeat). Okay?
We've already gone through the meaning. (Shen wang) means
"dependent things, changing things"...same thing, "functional
things". Same thing. What does (shen wang) mean? At the mercy
of other things. What? Their causes. They don't happen if the
other...if the causes don't show up, they don't get to be there,
(laughs), okay? All right. (Yong drup) means what? Emptiness in
the Mind Only School version. Okay.

(student: Totality)

We call it totality. Yeah. It's called totality. Why? Because
the minute something exists, it is in it's totality empty.
That's why it's called "totality", all right? It's a code word
for emptiness, okay. (Shen wangs) and (yong drups) (ranggi
tsennyi kyi ma druppa)...don't exist by definition. Don't exist
by definition. Who believes that?

(students: Middle Way)

Yeah, Madyamika. By the way, Je Tsongkapa goes through
eliminating the other possibilities. He says, look, no non-
Buddhist schools'd go running around saying that. No Hinayana
schools are running around saying that. The Mind Only School
wouldn't say that. Well, that means the Madyamikas. Sorry. I
guess we're guilty. All right. He's actually trying to find out
who's the villain in the Mind Only Schools' presentation, and and
then he quotes Master Asanga in the (b: Levels of the
Bodhisattva), bodhisttva bhumis, you know, to the effect that,
yeah, the villains here are the Middle Way School people,
okay...says Master Asanga...who's a closet Middle Way philosopher
(laughter) (laughs) all right? In that book, right...'cause he
wrote that book from the point of view of Mind Only School, okay,
and he and he virilantly attacks the Middle Way School...you
idiots, that say nothing exists. All right. Okay. That say
nothing exist. By the way, I'll give you the last thing
there...I think there was finished. Oh, well I'll give you the
punch line anyway and then we'll go back to some other details.
This is how, by the way, the Middle, the the the Mind Only School
in your reading, at the end, which is extremely difficult, okay,
especially if there's twelve people in your room talking about
different stuff and the TV's going and there's Irish music on a
tape recorder (laughter) okay, and you to translate it, okay, but
(laughs) anyway, it's like this...this is how the Mind Only
School likes to attack the Middle Way School. Ready? You know,
we we we...do you believe this pen exists from its own side? And
they say?...okay, I'm...I'll be Mind Only School, you be
Madyamika, okay. Does this pen exist from its own side, does it
have its own identity?

(students: No)

No. Okay. Does it have any existence?

(student: Yes)

Yes. Okay. How?

(students: It's a projection of your mind)

Your mind is projecting on it. Now remember the word that I use
"projecting" and the word for constructing is the same word,
(kun)...it's (tak pa) and (dok pa). (Ming de tak sa, men kun
tak, sam dok) okay. Oh, so you're saying this is just a
construct, right? Meaning projection.

(students: Yes)

Okay. You're Middle Way, okay...don't forget. I'm Mind Only.
I'm innocent Mind Only. You're you're these...extremists, all
right. Does this thing have any existence?

(students: Yes)

Wh...how? It's a projection of your mind. Oh, really? Okay, so
then the pen doesn't exist from its own side, right?

(students: Right)

Right, and if it doesn't exist, then what is it that you are
projecting? (laughter)...onto.

(student: From it's own side. We didn't say (unclear))

If it doesn't exist, wha what're you putting your projection
onto?

(students: (unclear))

Oh, I can't get (unclear) (laughs) okay. By the way, they go
straight like that, they go with a straight face, (laughter) they
say, "well, if it doesn't ex...okay, follow me...okay, pretend
you didn't catch it, okay. (laughter). Okay, okay, you Middle
Way guys, so if it doesn't exist, what is it you're calling
"pen"? What is it you project on to as "pen"?

(students: (unclear))

Huh?
(students: (unclear))

What? What are you calling the pen then if it doesn't exist?
There's nothing to call a pen, according to you guys. There's
nothing called a pen.

(student: Yeah, there's something...yeah there is a base)

No because you'll say that basis also has the same...doesn't
exist from its own side, doesn't exist. You say that al...you
say that too. So if you...I'm...now I got you, okay? You stupid
Middle Way (laughter), okay. Now I got you. If there's no pen
to have your projection towards, then how on earth can you have a
projection? And how then can everything be projections? There's
nothing to be a projection towards. According to you, okay. So
nothing exists because according to you everything exists by?
Projection...(ming de tak sam) According to you. I got you.
You gotta be wrong. You're extremists. You probably don't
believe in cause and effect. You probably don't believe in
karma. You probably go home and drink beer or something
(laughter) (laughs) okay? Okay. Really. I mean, that's
exactly...by the way, that's a pure Mind Only...if you read the
last few pages of your reading tonight, which will be hot off the
presses in about ten minutes, that's how it would go. I I'll run
it by you one more time. Does this thing exist from its own
side?
(students: No)

Well then how on earth does it exist?

(students: As a projection forced on me by my karma).

Yeah, by...through your projections. Okay. So if it doesn't
exist, what're you projecting onto?

(students: (unclear))

You gotta say "we didn't say it doesn't exist". But let's say
you didn't catch me...let's say you didn't catch me, yeah,
right...Mind Only School jumps and tries to get away with it,
okay? They try to jump and get away with it. So they say,
"okay, so what're you projecting onto?" I don't know, there's
nothing to project onto, right? So there's...projections
themselves don't exist either. So nothing exists...because
according to you everything is?

(students: Projections)

Projections. So if projections don't exist, nothing exists.
Okay. You guys are real extremists. (laughter) Okay. That's
what they say. That's exactly how the Mind Only...that's exactly
the process they go through, okay? Yeah.

(student: If they're smart enough to pull that trick, then
aren't they seeing what they...)

Oh, is it a trick in their mind?

(student: No)

It's not. They don't think they're trying to get anything by
you. To say it doesn't exist from its own side, and to say it
doesn't exist...with regard to a (shen wang), gotta say it that
way, is equivalent to saying it doesn't exist. Okay. I'll say
it again. If you say about a (shen wang), about a dependent
thing, that it doesn't exist from its own side, well then in this
school you gotta be saying?

(students: It doesn't exist at all)

It doesn't exist at all. So I don't...that's no problem for me
to go from there to there...you got a problem with that?
(laughs) Buddha said so...in that sutra...I can show you
quotations, okay? I don't know where you guys are at. I accept
what the Buddha said. Okay. All right. I think that's
about...did you have a question...somebody had a question. Yeah?

(student: How do they resolve the other end of their thinking
that if (shen wangs) do have an existence from their own side,
then it's sounds like postulating an unchanging thing within a
changing (unclear). How can you)

Ann says "like saying that (shen wangs) exist from their own side
is like postulating an unchanging thing and a changing thing".
So, I'll be Mind Only, okay? So changing things never have
cha...unchanging things about them?

(student: No)

Who said no? (laughter) (laughs) So I guess the Buddha only
talked about two of those attributes, (shen wangs) and (kun
taks), right...there's only two, not three, right?

(students: (laughter) No)

Huh. Oh there's three? What would the third one be?

(students: Yong drup. Emptiness)

Oh oh oh those are the changing (yong drups), right? (laughter)
Oh, there are unchanging (yong drups)?

(students: yes)

And they apply to (shen wangs)?
(students: yes)

So changing things have unchanging things about them?

(student: Yes)

Ha. (laughs) No that's how you debate, by the way, in the
monastery...it's all like this big sarcasm, you know, "oh, well I
guess there's only two attributes, huh?" (laughter) (laughs).
All right. Okay. Okay. Two more small things. We described in
the Mind Only School, that (kurn dep) or saying that something's
not there when it is there, would be to say about dependent
things and about emptiness that they don't exist by definition.
Right. Got it? Be...to say that they don't exist. (Kurn
dep)ing them, discounting them, you know, short-changing them,
would be to say "pens and emptiness don't exist from their own
side". In the Mind Only School that's what short changing would
be. Okay. Oh, you go around saying this thing doesn't exist by
by definition...the pen doesn't exist from its own side...I mean,
this doesn't exist from its own side? You are (kurn dep)ing.
Okay. You are short changing. You are discounting. Something
which really does exist. It does exist from its own side and
you're going around saying that those two things don't exist from
their own side. Question eight. How, according to the Mind Only
School, would you help someone get over the extreme view of
discounting those things? It's that it's that whole process I
just went through. No, it's like, okay, you say this thing
doesn't exist by definition? And if you're Middle Way you say
what? "Yeah, that's what I said. What'da you wanna do about it"
(laughter) (laughs) Okay. You say this thing doesn't exist by
definition, right?

(students: Yes)

Well, how do you think it does exist?

(student: (unclear))

Oh, right, and and the thing and and there's nothing to project
onto right 'cause doesn't exist by definition, right? So if
there's nothing to project onto there's no projections, right?
And if and if projections don't exist, then your whole idea of
existence, which is what? Everything exists by projection.
Everything exists by something that doesn't exist, right?
Thanks. Okay. That's how you fix somebody from that stupid what
view?

(student: Middle Way)

(laughs) Middle Way view. (laughs) That's how you fixed it, okay.
 By the way, since it's false there's gotta be a trick in there
and that's when you jump from existing by definition...sorry, not
existing by definition to not existing at all, okay. Got it?

(student: Yup)

You'll get used to it. I'll go through it one more time.
(laughs). You're Middle Way. I'm Mind Only. Does this thing
exist? You're Mind Only. I'm Middle Way. Does it exist?

(student: yeah)

Yeah, does it exist by definition?

(students: No)

You're you're Middle Way, you're Middle Way

(students: No...)

I'm sorry, you're Mind Only, okay.

(student: Wait wait wait)

I'm sorry. You're Middle Way. I'm Mind Only. You're
Middle...you're in the Middle, okay? I'm Mind Only (laughs)
(laughter) okay. You're Middle Way. I'm Mind Only. Does this
thing exist?
(students: Yes.)

You're Middle Way.

(student: I'm Middle Way)

Does this thing exist?

(student: It exists. Not from its own side. Not from its own
side.)

I didn't ask that.

(student: Okay)

Does this thing exist?

(students: Yes)

Yeah...does it exist from its own side?

(students: No)

No. Are you labeling something onto it?

(students: Yeah)

Yeah. Are you projecting something onto it?

(students: Yes)

Yeah. Now, onto what? Because that doesn't exist from its own
side, doesn't exist...so

(students: (unclear))

Well, in our school it's the same thing. Okay. So is there
something to project on to? No. I don't let you answer right?
I say, "no". You said "no, because it didn't exist from its own
side"
(student: I admitted it didn't exist from its own side)

Never mind, you did (laughter) (laughs). That's what Mind Only
School has to say. They have to say that, you know. Do they
have to say it about everything? No. You see. About (shen
wangs), that's a crazy thing to say...that it doesn't exist from
its own side. If I had a (shen wang) in a hand...in my hand that
didn't exist from its own side, it would have to be...non-
existent at all. You see what I mean? If I had a changing thing
in my hand, that didn't come from its own causes...come on.
Where're you gonna find something like that...gotta be non-
existent, okay. So how how how you gonna project onto that? I
don't think you even believe in projections. I don't think you
believe in anything 'cause you say everything's projections and
then you say projections don't exist because you say the thing
you project on doesn't exist because you say it doesn't come from
its own side. Crazy. That's all. You gotta get used to that.
Okay.

(student: Suppose I didn't (unclear))

They say, "look, we never said it didn't exist. We said it
doesn't exist independent of your projections, okay? You can get
hit by a car, but the car isn't coming from its own side. It
will break your legs, even though it's an illusion (laughter),
okay. In fact it will break your legs?

(students: Because it's an illusion)

Because it's an illusion. Otherwise your legs couldn't break,
okay. That's how Madyamika would answer. Okay. Last thing.
Who's the villain who who who does this (kurn dep) according to
the Mind Only School?

(students: your ignorance)

Un huh...be careful. Ignorance did the (dron dok)ing.

(students: Oh...Middle Way School)
Yeah, Middle Way School. The villain is the Middle Way School.
How do you fix them? You go through proving that there's nothing
to project on so there's no projections and when you say that
everything's projection, if there's no projections, then nothing
exists...let's go have a beer. Okay. All right. According to
you. Then there's no morality. Then you're not a Buddhist.
Okay. I mean...that's how they complain about the the Middle Way
School. Okay. So in your homework, that's all we're gonna do
tonight...in your homework you go home and you and you compare
those two ways of thinking about discounting and concocting,
(kurn...dron dok) and (kun tak), uh sorry, (kurn kurn dep).
Okay? We'll go over the Middle Way School one more time. What
is it to (dron dok) this pen in the Middle Way School?

(student: To say that it comes from its own side)

To say that it exists from its own side. Independent of any
projection coming from you, okay? Your boss is bad from his own
side, it's not coming from you. I am not to blame, okay. I
believe that, okay. That in a Mind Only Sc...sorry, Middle Way
School that would be (dron dok), that would be concocting
something when it's not there. There is no self existent boss
who's bad from his own side. There doesn't exist any such thing,
never did, never will. Stop getting angry. Break the wheel of
life at the first link. You don't have to die any more, you
don't have to get old anymore, and especially nice you don't have
to meet these guys any more (laughter) (laughs) okay? All right.
 Not kidding. Do it. I have students who do it all the time.
It's wonderful to clean up your your office, you know. It's
better than taking a gun to the post office. (laughter) you know
(laughs). No legal repercussions at all. They just get
transferred, they have heart attacks...you know, they move to
Cincinnati, okay. It's very clean. No evidence left over, okay
(laughs) (laughter) all right, really, and then you clean up the
rest of your world and it's called a Buddha paradise. And it's
the same principle as cleaning up the office, okay, but you start
with the office. Okay. And then what's a...according to the
Mind Only School what would be discounting this pen?
(student: Believing (unclear))

Huh?

(student: Oh. Same thing...Mind Only...)

I'm sorry, Middle Way School. I'm sorry Middle Way School.
Middle Way School. I'm sorry. (Geshe-la snores). Long day.

(student: It's not empty)

Huh?

(student: The thing is not empty.)

You can say the thing is not empty, or thinking that if it's not
the way I thought it was then?

(students: It doesn't exist at all)

It's it's it's it doesn't matter. It's non-existent. It's an
illusion. I can do anything I want, you know, okay. That's that
the Middle Way School's version. So in your meditation when you
this week, I mean until Tuesday, work on that, sk skip through
the two ideas, okay. How would a Mind Only School person say
"I'm concocting something here"? Now how would a Middle Way
person say "I'm concocting something here"? And how would a Mind
Only School person say "I'm discounting or cancelling something
here?" And how would a Middle Way person say...and then when
when you have your own students which you must have have, and and
you're explaining it to them in the Middle Way School version,
they'll come up with some wrong idea that's that's a Mind Only Way version,
you say, "ah, you know, you...you're really smart.
That's Arya Asanga's position...but it's wrong". (laughter) And
then (laughs) Okay? No, and then you'll explain it to them, you
see, and then their understanding of of empty...of real emptiness
gets much much clearer, okay, that's the whole idea. Okay. All
right, we'll do some prayers. I saw Phuntsok there somewhere.
Can you (unclear) him back there?
(prayer: short mandala)

(prayer: dedication)

Okay. Thank you. Thank you.
What the Buddha Really Meant
Course 15