ACI 1 «Основные учения буддизма», занятие 11

ACI Course I, Class Eleven: Course Review
8/19/93
transcribed by: Louise Rosenthal



[unclear] [repeat] {di}[repeat], {dru wa}[repeat], {de la} [repeat], {tam je}[repeat],
{dru wa}[repeat], {gyur}[repeat]. {Kang la} means "for whatever...for whatever."
Okay {la} means "for" and {kang} means "whatever". {Tompa} you know,
{tompa ni}?

[student: Subdued?]

{Shu nyi ta}, okay? The {ni} is the {ta}, the {tompa} is the {shu nya}. Alright?
{Shu nya ta}. {Dru wa} means "right" or "appropriate". Right or appropriate. {De
la} means "for that thing...for that thing". {Tam je} means "everything". {Ru wa
gyur} means "is right...is right".

[student: Is that the {gyur} that sort of like means becoming?]

Yeah.

[student: It's related to like 'is' and then becoming [unclear] ]

Ah so look at it for a few seconds and then Bill Kelly's gonna translate it.

[student: You said {druwa gyur} is right?]

Is right, is appropriate.

[student: {Gyur} is 'is'?]

Yeah. In this case. What's that say?

[student, Bill Kelly: I'm lost [unclear] ]

Come on really. Best spoken one of us all. For whatever

[student, Bill Kelly: For whatever is right ]
For whatever thing emptiness is right

[student, Bill Kelly: Oh okay, everything [unclear] emptiness is right, everything
is.]

Right yeah okay? This is a complaint, you know some people were complaining
to Nagarjuna, "Well if things are empty then they can't work....or they don't
exist." And Nagarjuna said, "No. It's actually the opposite. Anything...for
anything which emptiness is right, well then for that thing any other quality is
right." If it's empty you can do something. If it's not empty you can't do
anything. Nagarjuna...this is a quote from Nagarjuna's most famous work [b:
Lulamadhyamikakarmica], and he said...people complained to him and they said,
"Well if everything's empty, then your [unclear] and the words are empty. And
your book is empty. And it can't teach us anything. You can't teach us
emptiness with words if your words are empty, so it's a waste of time. If, if
words are, are...meaningless, if everything's empty then why, why bother
writing your books?" And he said, "No, it's the opposite, because my words are
empty then they can communicate."           Okay?     "Because my words are
empty...because they have no nature you can understand something in there
that comes from..."

[student: Your side.]

"Your own mind." [laughs] Okay?

[student: It's not like the beginning of the [b: Tao Te Ching] then whatever
things is said is not the tao.]

Yeah.

[student: I mean those who will say whatever thing you can say is just false
because it says [unclear] is not the reality.]

Oh not like that. No not at all...because if you have the good deeds, I can speak
words and then you can understand them and then you can stop having bad
thoughts and then you can achieve nirvana. So my words are understandable
but who gives them meaning?

[student: The listener ]
Yeah

[student: Perceiver ]

They are also, also only labels...with thoughts. So, and the same for everything
else...it's very interesting, if, if things aren't empty, if things have their own
nature, they could never change. They could never change...the way the guy at
work is going to go from being unpleasant to me to being pleasant to me to
being some day a deity to me, is that he's empty. If he were really that guy, he
could never become pleasant and then become ultimately pleasant to me.
Because he's empty he can become pleasant to me. Because of my own
projections and my own perceptions. If he weren't empty he would always
remain the...like the...he is, today [laughs].

[students: [unclear] ]

I try not to curse in class, I made a resolution. [laughs]

[student: What difference does it make?]

[student: It's sort of the ten non-virtues.]

[unclear] sound right to me.

[students: Yeah, harsh words.]

Yeah.

[student, Kylie: You keep bringing this example up.]

It's a good example, I think everyone has a...everyone has somebody at work
that they have a problem with as far as I know. I, I managed a department for
ten years and

[student, Kylie: [unclear] ]

Everyone had problems with somebody. Huh?

[student, Kylie: The front end of that example is very appropriate I think, the
back end of it however. Everyone turning into deities...are we to cling to the
appearance of people as suffering so that boddhichitta will function or you
know, do we just a, at some point, don't need to have any boddhichitta because
everyone's a deity?]

Aah the buddhas don't lose their boddhichitta.

[student, Kylie: Well no he's saying everyone's gonna turn into...is gonna appear
to you to be a deity if that's the case what do you need boddhichitta for or is that
the end all of boddhichitta?]

Do you lose your...do you lose your....do, do buddhas go for refuge? Are they
afraid of hell and afraid of...that's the cause for refuge.

[student, Kylie: But to me a deity is somebody who...a, a true deity you know,
with a ]

There's a debate

[student, Kylie: [unclear] the way you mean it, okay, is somebody who's beyond
suffering so what's the point in boddhichitta if everyone turns into that when
you get to a certain point then a...does, does that mean that by you achieving
enlightenment the whole world achieves it at the same time or does that mean
that you're not gonna be able to perceive anybody suffering anymore so your
boddhichitta won't have any function.]

You

[student, Kylie:    Or you having an example here that isn't fully cooking
[unclear] ]

You're aware of...it's a long story, [laughs] we'll get there. It comes, it comes.
Basically put, you obviously can't have any suffering, right? Yourself.

[student, Kylie: Right.]

Okay. And according to the meaning of Buddhahood you've achieved others
benefit completely

[student, Kylie: Right.]
Even if there are still people suffering in the world you've achieved the ultimate
good for other people by becoming a buddha.

[student, Kylie: So then you have to ]

Are you're aware of them suffering? Can you interact with them? Yes, you can,
you can be aware...you, you're aware of their suffering but you don't experience
their suffering something.

[student: Kylie: Yeah but if they are appearing to you deceptively to be beings
that aren't suffering ]

They're not.

[student, Kylie: They're not.]

[laughs]

[student: [unclear] ]

[student, Kylie: Well no, he's saying that everyone's gonna appear to you to be a
being that isn't suffering and as a deity right? Is that a deceptive appearance or is
that an actual appearance? I mean is it the truth or is that a deception?]

[student: I think...don't you mean that you experience the pleasurable kind of
sensation not just that they're deities but that you don't see them as rotten, mean
whatever, you don't see their ugly side you [unclear] ]

Read the calendar. Read the calendar. I mean it says that the potholes in indian
roads are caused by the collective bad karma of indians, all indians, all indians
who ever bump on that road. You know...and from that you can draw your
own conclusions you don't need me to tell you.

[student, Kylie:    So the potholes in India will disappear when you reach
enlightenment.]

[student: When everybody reaches enlightenment.]

For them. For any person who reaches that state there will be no potholes.
[student, Kylie: So if the equivalent, if the people equivalent of potholes ie
samsaric beings will also disappear what do you need boddhichitta for?]

What do you need refuge for, what's your [unclear]?            Do they stop taking
refuge?

[students: I guess not...I don't know...Why do they [unclear]?]

[student, Kylie: How does boddhichitta function if the...there's nobody who's
suffering?]

How does refuge work if there's no need to take refuge?

[student, Kylie: You keep saying that over and over again, that the guy from
work is gonna, just like everybody else is gonna stop being a samsaric being.]

No it's a good question. It's actually the question I asked Pabongkha when
debated him for his geshe exam. That's the question I, I [laughs]...that's what I
asked him, when he took his geshe exam.

[student, Kylie: So this is a good question then this is not a frivolous pursuit.]

No it's an important question. Ah, I, it's an important question...that's the
question I chose. I had to...I was the first, I was the first debater for his geshe
exam.

[student, Vilma Staiano: What did you say?]

I asked him this question.

[student, Kylie: And he said? Big subject fourth year [laughter]]

I said...I said if it's unpleasant for a buddha...to perceive an...you know someone
suffering, then he hasn't...then that unpleasant feeling, isn't that suffering for
him, to have some sort of awareness of someone else's suffering, isn't that pain
to be aware of someone else's suffering? I mean isn't it painful for a mother to
watch her son suffer?

[student: But the Buddha is beyond the point where he [unclear] can experience
those things.]

I'm sure you...but doesn't the compassion

[student:   Compassion, you can feel compassion but you don't have the
[unclear] ]

Right.

[student: So ]

But isn't it unpleasant for him to see us mess up our lives and suffer?

[student: No ]

[student, Kylie: That's not what you...no that's a different...subject though you're
saying ]

No I'm, I'm saying

[student, Kylie: People are gonna turn into beings that have no suffering, that's
different from ]

So when

[student, Kylie: How do you perceive, is it painful to perceive things, you can't
perceive anybody who's suffering if everybody's a deity.]

That's what I'm trying to ask. Shakyamuni has achieved...the ultimate goal.
Then does he perceive suffering?

[student, Kylie: Well...ah if he does not then how is boddhichitta ]

Then what is his occupation?

[student, Kylie: Affected I mean what's, what's the point?]

[laughs] What is his occupation? That's what Rinpoche said, the last time he was
in New York like twelve years ago, so he said, "Well I guess they're all gonna die
right?" [unclear] the question.
[student, Kylie: I mean that would...wha...what you're saying is, is that...what's
the difference, is it, is it they appear falsely to a buddha to be deities, or magically
everybody in reality loses their suffering once one person achieves
Buddhahood?]

Is, is water nectar or pus, or water? You, you took that course right? We had
that. Who, who was there?

[student: [unclear] ]

We went over that.

[student: You sat in the dentistry chair?]

No...well it's in there, madhyamika [unclear]. Is water water or pus or nectar?
Or the nectar of immortality?

[student, Kylie: Well I suppose that it's water to a samsaric being, then nectar to
a buddha. The the buddha is going to be perceiving the emptiness of their own
perceptions and say, you know it looks like water to me but I recall that to some
[unclear] to some of these beings who appear to be deities right now to me that's
a deceptive reality to me and actually they're really suffering so this thing that
looks like nectar to me it looks like water to them. ]

[unclear] Well think about it.

[student, Vilma Staiano: Well wouldn't everything's emptiness connect to that
then because if you initially saw them as a bad person and now they're deities it's
the same thing really, it just depends on ]

[student: [unclear] ]

[unclear] their nature didn't change. Yeah. Their dependence didn't change and
their emptiness didn't change.

[student,Vilma Staiano: I don't know if that connects to what you're [unclear] ]

[student, Kylie: Well, I'm just saying I mean if, if everything appears to be
perfect, then either that's a deceptive appearance or it's not, and if it's not a
deceptive appearance then there's no more function for boddhichitta.]

[student: If everything appeared to be perfect everything just appears...forget
perfect, why qualify ]

[laughs] Okay so...

[student, John Stilwell: Can I say one thing?]

Yeah.

[student, John Stilwell: The Buddha perceives ultimate reality and deceptive
reality simultaneously so he's seeing ]

[student, Kylie: But does he perceive it deceptively?]

[student, John Stilwell: He, he perceives it as deceptive reality.]

Good, that's a very good answer. He, he...that's a big distinction. To be...we are
perceiving deceptive reality all our lives, but we don't perceive it as
deceptive...we don't perceive that it is deceptive reality.

[student, Kylie: And he has to perceive it as a glass of water also.]

He perceives deceptive reality.

[student, Kylie: And a, and a, and a cup of nectar simultaneously. ]

He perceives it as nectar. But he's aware that, that it's only his perception and
that if he had been any different in the past he would be seeing pus. He's also
aware that you can perceive it as water. He's also aware that other people
perceive it as...as pus.

[student: I don't, I don't think for myself that it's appropriate to ask so many
questions in this sense because if I recall one time Buddha said then [unclear]
arrow right? So he said, "You are in a condition so desperate you don't start
investigating the color of the arrow blah-blah-blah and all these different thing,
imaging what a buddha would be what...we are in trouble. We, you know, we
have to work hard on yourself to get out of trouble so everything [unclear] I
mean is nice to talk about all these subject but is a little bit also too far for me.]
Sometimes they teach backwards stuff, sometimes they start from the last
chapter...of any book, sometimes they'll start you know, like the [b: Perfection
of Wisdom] sometimes they'll start from the last...the eight chapter instead of the
first chapter because it explains what a buddha is like, and it's supposed to get
you excited about reaching that.

[student, Kylie: Also that sutra that Buddha was talking, said that sutra in
reference to things he didn't talk about. I'm talking about something that
Michael talks about in almost every class.]

[laughs] Okay. Anyway, this is what...this is by Nagarjuna, and this is what
Nagarjuna said to people who said, "Well if things are empty then nothing
works." And he said what? Ariel.

[student, Ariel: If things are empty then nothing works?]

They, they said...they criticized him

[student, Ariel: Things work because they're empty.]

Right nice, nice, they only work because they're empty, they weren't empty they
couldn't work. Specifically they couldn't change, the reason that the person that
you're looking at...the reason that water can someday can become...the
nectar...what's...ambrosia to you, and it will, is that...it's empty. If it were
inherently existent, if it had it's own nature it could never be. Will never be. And
that's why you can't practice the secret teachings if you don't understand
emptiness. They're...nothing will happen. You don't understand how it could
work, but because of emptiness they can work. That those things can work. But
they, and because you understand karma you know that they can't work if you
don't do the right deeds. They never will...you can have any kind of blessing or
empowerment or anything you want, if you don't do the actual deeds that will
make that occur, it's impossible. It's against all the rules of karma. You know, it's
against everything you've studied, it won't happen. It's impossible. You know
and you can...you kind of got this feeling that...you know you'll, you'll realize
something and suddenly things will change. But it's not like that you really do
have to become perfectly good. [laughs] You know? It's kind of that you think
in the back of your mind I can still keep some of my bad habits. You know?
[laughter] And maybe I'll still reach nirvana. No you really do have to become
perfectly good, you know, you really can't dislike any person you meet...you
really can't have any bad emotion at work, that's...you can't, you really can't have
any bad karma and still have those results in this life, it's impossible...so you
make a choice. You know, you have to make a choice. You can't keep [unclear]

[student, John Stilwell: Can I ask a question?]

Yeah.

[student, John Stilwell: In, you know, in this, in that book concept of...you have
to really stop doing any bad deed you can only do good deeds...it seems to me
like there's this whole idea of...how do I say it? Not denial but it's not okay the
way it is, kind of like really being hard on ourselves, really saying, "I can't do this,
I can't do this, I can't do this." You know the renunciation of suffering, lots and
lots and lots of negative reinforcement, you know, negative motivation. Lots
and lots and lots of 'this isn't okay, this isn't okay, and this isn't okay and this isn't
okay...you should be doing this instead of this, you should be doing this instead
of this'...that it's a r...it seems to me like it's a real...dispiriting approach, [laughter]
you know, a real approach it says 'you're not okay the way you are, your
behavior isn't okay, you know the basis of your motivation needs to be fear and
a...that's the nature of life. And, and so where's the joy of effort come into this?]

[student, Kylie: I, I think you, you know, you, you miss the big qualifier, you
shouldn't do this, this, this, this if you don't want to experience that, that, that,
that. If you do want to suffer then by all means go ahead [unclear] ]

[student, John Stilwell: Of course, of course. Well the assumption is is we all do
want to experience happiness and, and as we try to get to happiness.]

[student, Ariel: Right, it's very disheartening, yeah.]

[student, John Stilwell: You know we all, I think we all do want to get to
happiness and that's where we're trying to get to, it's a question of how to do it,
[unclear] way is positive ]

[student,Kylie:    It might be disillusioning to find out that the things you like
[unclear] ]

Ah, I was...I was in this other class the other day and we were talking about this
and we were talking about anger...and it....we came to this interesting conclusion
that, okay you get angry at the guy, you realize what you're angry at has to be a
non-existing thing, you realize that he has no nature of being...ugly by himself,
you realize that he's blank of that because to other people he looks quite nice,
you realize that whatever ugliness he appears to have is coming from your own
perceptions and you realize that those are forced on you and then you tried not
to do them any more. And I...we were talking about it and the result is that, at
least for the time you're having all these thoughts...you didn't get angry, you
know what I mean? In the moments that you [laughter]

[student:   When you say get angry you mean actually behave in an angry
manner ]

No I don't mean that.

[student: Because the, no [unclear] ]

You can't have, you can't have...it's very interesting in, in debate

[student: [unclear] starts to come up and then you [unclear]]

No, yeah, well it's there at a low level. You're, you're, you're, you're...we can say
you're about to have anger, and then you start debating with yourself, which is
what conscience is. And you, you've already been doing it I assume in the last
week or two or three...you've, you've had instances where it occurred to you,
"Oh this is the moment of truth, this is what he was talking about, this is when
I'm supposed to see the guy's empty...now, now, what was I supposed to do?"
And then that slips out of your mind and you get angry. [laughs] And then, you
know, ten minutes later you say, "Oh I...I was supposed to do something else,
what was that?" [laughter] You know what I mean? But for...what, what we were
talking about in the other class was that for that period, that wisdom is in...that's
wisdom in your mind, the debating...the, the guy that says, "Wait a minute, wait
a minute, you're supposed to be thinking about emptiness." At the moment of
heat, wisdom cannot coexist with a, with a {nya mong}, it's impossible, with a
{khlesha}, with a bad thought. During the period that you are perceiving him as
empty, or trying, hard...at that same moment according to buddhist philosophy,
according to the philosophy of perception, according to the study of
perception...you cannot have a, a bad thought in your mind at that time...while
you're, while you're debating. While you're underst...starting to understand his
nature as being empty, and while you're trying to think about the karma of the
situation...during those few moments it's impossible to have anger in your mind
focused at the same object, it's impossible.
[student, Ariel: You mean you can't be thinking one thing and feeling another?]

No.

[students: [unclear] ]

Towards one object no.

[student, Kylie: Don't you mean your mind can't be dominated by anger?]

No no no no

[student,Kylie: You have to conceive of it to use wisdom to analyze it.]

When you're having...wisdom, you cannot have the emotion of anger...in the
same moment. You might...they might alternate so quickly that you think you
have both at the same time but you can't. When your mind is understanding his
nature, you can't have anger and that's in fact the, the way you're gonna
liberated. So...but that isn't what I wanted to talk about, what, what we were
saying in the other class was that, you might notice if you've tried this for a
while, that a side benefit, which is sort of a funny side benefit...you saved
yourself five minutes of anger during the day. And that's pleasant...I mean even
if buddhism doesn't exist, and if karma is not true, and emptiness means nothing,
you just get angry less during the day and it feels better, you feel better. You
know, that's...I thinks that's some kind of a pleasure.

[student, John Stilwell: It is, it's a, it's a side benefit, you know one of the six
perfections is joyous effort, right?]

And, and also what you call rejoicing. Like when you think about the Dalai
Lama, you know, that there's one person in the world who's got no occupation
except to go around and to talk about compassion. [laughs] You know, and you
say, yeah that's nice, you know this person...he could have been famous, he
could have had this, that, this and he chose...he chooses to go around the world
teaching people these things, teaching crazy western people these things...then
you, if you're happy, that's supposed to net you ten percent of his virtue.

[student, John Stilwell: Well that's great. My question is though is that the,
the...you know joyous effort is one of the six perfections of boddhisattvas but it
doesn't seem anywhere that there's any teaching about how to cultivate joyous
effort, how to have joyous effort.]

Oh we'll get there.            Fourth, fourth chapter.           Fourth chapter [b:
Boddhisattvacharyatara]

[student: Is deceptive because [unclear] used to talk about the monks like people
they are learning [unclear] intention of suffering. In a way, because if you look
at the monks in India or you say boy they are cut off from the main whatever,
and then you can look at monks [unclear] my experience in Nepal many
different way including that one, oh they just withdraw from life because it's so
hard to live on the street so they, they retire in some monastery and they have
the food and they live for free but anyway but these are all I think assorted
views of the monk including that one of Buddha that will say they [unclear]
intention of suffering in terms of [unclear] ]

Yeah Benjamin Franklin wrote a thing about monks. [laughs] It's a crazy one. I
say the same thing. Yeah no I think...I agree, that what we've had so far
was...the renunciation part is meant to make you afraid and depressed, and
some people wrote on their homework that a, [laughter] that I take it as a good
sign, I say that's, that's fine, according, you know, that's the cause for, for taking
refuge and until you take refuge you're not a buddhist so, if you have some kind
of fear or depression or worry or distaste that's renunciation and you're doing
fine.

[student, John Stilwell: My question is are there balancing teachings here
somewhere that sort of burns back to life as a joyous experience.]

I think...it's not a joyous experience [laughs] as it is, we studied the six sufferings I
mean, it's not. There will be joy I mean there...I think boddhichitta, if you get
into boddhichitta meditation, and you really have, you know, if you meditate
over a period of time and you get into this very simple thought, that
a...fantasizing that you want everybody in the world to be happy, if you want
everyone walking around every street in the world right now to get exactly the
things they want, it's a very pleasant medita...I don't think there's any more
pleasant thought than that, and it's very happy, you know, it's very satisfying
when you get to that point in your meditation and you just...you're only feeling
is that everyone, even the people you don't like very much at work, things like
that, that they succeed...and that they get what they want. That's a very healthy
thought and that's a quite a happy...when you get good at that.
[student: You're supposed to go towards bliss right? And they say and that kind
of bliss would be many time higher than any kind of happiness that you can
experience in samsara, so [unclear] ]

[unclear]

[student: Suffering is ]

Sometimes I also tell people there's no choice also. [laughs] What else do you
gonna do? You know what I mean?

[student: Yeah [unclear] ]

You're not gonna practice these things...what, what's your other option, you
know? Is it to go on like before, I mean you, you guys are poison, your minds
are poison you can't go back now. And you will not go back.

[student, John Stilwell: In tantra...in tantra the point is is we've practicing
everything is bliss and then [unclear] days, right? I mean it's an intentional ]

I don't know. [laughs]

[student, John Stilwell: Ah, okay, alright.]

We can't talk about that. [laughs] Okay, now...you know, no, we have to go
early tonight, we have to go quick tonight because we have to get out to New
Jersey, 'cause Rinpoche said [unclear]. Okay. {Chaktsel}[repeat], {tang na}
[repeat], {dro go}[repeat], {ray}[repeat]. This is colloquial tibetan, it kinda sounds
like that, {tak sel}[repeat], {[unclear]}[repeat], {dro go}[repeat], {ray}[repeat]...we
gotta go up and pray to them. [laughter] That's it. Middle floor. Leave your
books, you don't need 'em.

[student: Seriously?]

Serious...this is very serious.

[student: What do I say? [unclear] ]

{Chaktsel tang} means "to debate". {Dro go ray} means "we gotta go".
[students: [unclear] ]

This one? {Dro gu ray}.

[student: No no. E-R ]

[students: [unclear chatter] ]

[unclear] [cut] [unclear] tell me the...in english, okay, can you tell me the three
qualities of an authentic teaching? Three qualities of an authentic

[student, Ariel: Three qualities of an authentic teaching?]

Yup. {Tsho}!

[student, Ariel: Oh three qual...okay.]

{[unclear]}

[student, Ariel: Teaching, teacher ]

{[unclear]} Teaching, good teaching, authentic teach...{[unclear]}

[student, Ariel: Must have been spoken by the Buddha?]

Yah. {[unclear]}

[student, Ariel: It must have been, it must have been ]



{Tsho}! [laughter]

[student, Kylie: He wants you to show him ]

{Tsho, tsho, tsho, tsho}, {tsho} means "come on, give it". {Ni pa tsho}

[student, Ariel: My brain isn't working, it must have been spoken by the
Buddha, it must have been rendered, must have been cleansed of all errors ]
Good, by whom?

[student, Ariel: By master teachers ]

{[unclear]}

[student, Ariel: And it must have been ]

Can't you speed up a little bit?

[student, Ariel: No. [unclear] speak slow. ]

{[unclear]} Gimme another three, what's he...you waiting for? [laughs]          You
guys are supposed to go, are you ready? Oooooo, [repeat] [laugher]

[student: They do that, they all laugh at the [unclear]?]

Yeah they all go, watch

[student, Kylie:   We're supposed to go rank out [unclear] is that the tibetan
way? ]

[unclear] Listen, {oooooooooooo bag}[low to high pitch, increasing in volume]
[laughs][laughter]

[student: What was the last thing?]

{ [unclear] tsho...tsho}. What's number three? {[unclear]} Are you telling me
there's only two? There's only two maybe?

[student: By practicing it you have to be capable of achieving realizations.]

Yeah good, okay. If nobody can get anywhere with it...no no wait [laughter].
{[unclear]} No it's not. {[unclear]} Nobody can tell me the three qualities of a
good student. {[unclear]}

[student, Kylie: Ah the three qualities of a good student.]

{[unclear]}
[student, Kylie: [unclear] be sittin' over on the, on the end over here. They must
be, they must be a proper vessel for the teachings.]

{Tsho}!

[student: Oh not {tsho}, shame on you.]

Three qualities.

[student, Kylie: They should have the problem of the pot, the three problems of
the pot.]

{[unclear]} I didn't say the three problems to avoid I said the three qualities that
[unclear] use

[student, Kylie: They have to have effort and a you know be willing to apply the
effort to the teachings.]

{[unclear]} Is that the first quality of a student?

[student, Kylie: Nah no, it's not the first quality of a [unclear] ]

{[unclear]} You're gonna count from them backwards, two more, one two three.

[student, Kylie: You must be intelligent, you must be [unclear] to find the
teacher in the first place [unclear] ]

[unclear]

[students: Open minded...unbiased...unbiased...unbiased.]

Yeah, open minded in what, {[unclear]}?

[student, Kylie: And they have to be a proper vessel which means they have to
be receptive and open minded to the teaching.]

{[unclear]} Okay, yeah not, unbiased. {[unclear]} What's number two?
{[unclear]} {Ka tum...ka tum}...shut your mouth. {[unclear]}

[student, Kylie: You must be willing to put up with treatment like this.]
[laughter] The nice thing about debate is that you get to turn on somebody else.
The nice thing about debate is you get to turn to somebody else. Yeah
{[unclear]}. I guess there's only one right?

[student, Kylie: No I thought we said [unclear] intelligent and receptive and
effort, they have to have a lot of effort, practice hard, be willing to work hard.]

Yeah. {[unclear]} Is that the correct order? {[unclear]}

[student, Kylie: Nah, I think effort's the last one and intelligence is the first one
and unbiased is the second one.]

{[unclear]} What's the correct

[student, Ariel: Unbiased, intelligent, willing to strive.]

Good.

[student, Ariel: You just asked me the wrong question.]

Aaah okay, Adiana. The first three of the ten qualities of a good teacher.

[student: He must have controlled his own afflictive emotions. ]

{[unclear]} What does control mean?

[student: [unclear] ]

[student, Kylie: [unclear] silly murky issue.]

[laughter] You're lucky I didn't say anything's worse. You're lucky I didn't really
say something.

[student, Kylie: We're supposed to be taking notes on these insults [unclear]?]

{[unclear]}

[student: They must have tamed this afflictive emotion?]
{[unclear]} What does control mean? {[unclear]}

[student: Morality. They must have pure morality?]

Aaah! {Diga diga diga}. That's nice. Okay number two. {[unclear]}

[student: He must have excellent qualities ]

{Tsho}! [laughter]

[student: Is that it?]

Come on let's go!

[student: Is that, is that number two must have good qualities more excellent
than the, than the student no?]

{[unclear]. Tsultrim dene kai.} What's after morality, come on! You guys
haven't been studying at all. {Tsa} I'm gonna find something to do. {[unclear]}
peaceful, what does peaceful mean? Obviously not, not [unclear]. Peaceful,
what's peaceful mean...hey you, peaceful. {Dulwar shiwa, nyer shiwa}

[student, Vilma Staiano: What do you mean peaceful?]

Out of the...no obviously [laughter] [unclear] student, what's number two?          I
mean teacher, teacher. What's number two, what does peaceful refer to?

[student: Morality. ]

Control.

[student: Mindfulness, mindfulness.]

[unclear] morality.

[student, Kylie: Subdued, subdued.]

No, concentration. The three trainings, three trainings are the first three qualities
[unclear] same one. Morality, concentration on what? [unclear]
[student: On emptiness?]

[student: No.]

[unclear] you guys? He's got morality and he con...he's aware of [unclear] right?
Right. {Pythese kari shak}, what does...{nyer shiwa kari shak}, what's number
three? It's the three trainings, same. Those three words which sound very
romantic are actually referring to the three trainings and not to this "aw peaceful
[unclear]". What's number three?         High, high peace. What are the three
trainings? Morality, concentration

[student: Oh and wisdom.]

Wisdom okay. Wisdom towards what? Towards what? {Shiwa}. What's {shiwa}
[unclear]?

[student: Realizing emptiness.]

Yeah it's pretty good, okay. Yeah {[unclear]} Stilwell. So he doesn't have to have
extraordinary realization, {topa} about emptiness. {[unclear]}, right?

[student, John Stilwell: He needs to ]

You guys are getting scared, you're supposed to get rowdy not scared.
[laughter]

[student, John Stilwell: He needs to have ]

{[unclear]}. So, so, so, really realizing emptiness is not a quality of a, of a lama
right? {Yinpa ta}.

[student, John Stilwell: It's preferable that he's really realized emptiness but at
least have intellectual, good intellectual understanding of emptiness.]

{[unclear]} Is that what really realized means? In that verse? Controlled,
peaceful, high peace, does he have to be? Is that what it means? {[unclear]} It
means very realized. Quality {yinba ta}, is that one of the ten qualities? {Yinba
ta}.

[student, Ariel: With a deep realization of suchness, number five.]
{Yinba ta} [unclear] No it's not number five it's number three [unclear].        It's
number three.

[student, Ariel: No but deep realization is suchness is number ]

I thought number two was a deep realization of suchness

[student: Direct perception of emptiness.]

[student: Controlled and peace by peace.]

Oh yeah that's nice, that's nice. Little bit bigger perception, okay? Number three
is a perception of emptiness, number five is a big perception of emptiness.

[student, Ariel: But also you said five was qualified by the fact that they at least
had to have the intellectual ]

Yeah. That's true, that's true.

[student, Ariel: Understanding.]

[student, John Stilwell: Number three is having a]

[student, Ariel: [unclear] ]

[unclear] you have to sit that way for about fifteen hours.

[student, John Stilwell: Number three is having the same ]

Okay.

[student, John Stilwell: Number three is having a difficult ]

What's number four? Where, who am I speaking [unclear]? Fran. Number four
{tsho}!

[student, Fran Dayan: Rich in scriptures?]

Was it? {Yinba ta}. So it's enough only to be...it's not enough only to be realized,
he has to be rich in scripture also?

[student, Fran Dayan: Yeah.]

{[unclear]} What's number six? I gotta, I gotta keep going until you make a
mistake

[student, Fran Dayan: Okay then yes.]

That's the, that's the usual way.

[student, Fran Dayan: Okay so then you have to treat...loving, in a loving way.]

{[unclear]}! How many of the, how many of the ten qualities refer to him, and
how many of the ten refer to his quality of his teaching?

[student, Fran Dayan: I, I remember six and four.]

Yeah six and four right. So number six is, number six is his personal quality or
how he teaches?

[students: Personal quality]

Mmm, [unclear] what's number six?

[student: Has to be better than you.]

Yeah {yun yen happa} okay. {Yun yen happa yinba ta}, what are the, what
are...give me at least two of the four things he has to have [unclear] about
teaching, how he teaches, Faith {tsho}, {[unclear]}. This is the way to review, you
can do it in about half an hour.

[student, Faith: Can't lose his patience, can't lose patience.]

Yeah okay.

[student, Ariel: That's the last [unclear] that's ten.]

Yeah last one. {[unclear]} [laughter]        So anyway, {dag ni}...{[unclear]}   Say
something, aye-ya!
[student, Kylie: Happy to teach, eh? Joyful.]

No, is it?

[student, Fran Dayan: Well he teaches at your level.]

[students: [unclear]]

{Ma kyi den}, master teacher, {ma kyi den}, he knows your level and he teaches
in the right order, for you. Okay what's number two? We got number one and
number four.
[student: What?!]

Of these four qualities, we only have two right? He's not...he doesn't get tired of
repeating over and over again [laughter] and he teaches in the right order and,
and according to your needs.

[students: [unclear]]

{[unclear]} He teaches out of love?

[student: Love and compassion.]

Yeah, you...what's love mean here?

[student: He teaches without reason for...of making money or personal profit.]

Good good that's what love means here. It's not like...he teaches for love of
[unclear] right? Okay for love of the student, not like out of he wants to get
famous or get money or you know...okay we got three out of four, missing one
still...Mister Kay {tsho}.

[student, Kay: Is a, is a, out of the, the [unclear] mind he never gets, the root
a...I, I didn't want to go [laughter][unclear] turned down, you never get turned
down by any, you know]

That was the last one.

[student, John Stilwell:   I thought [unclear] he was the very embodiment of
[unclear] ]

[unclear] he's not teaching for money.

[student, John Stilwell: I thought the separate one was that he didn't see...he's
not in search of praise, I thought they were two separate things.]

No.

[students: [unclear]]

We're missing one of his four qualities.

[students: Effort.]

Okay. Oh {tsunchim} yeah yeah yeah yeah. He makes great efforts...what did
that mean?

[student, Kylie: Puts up with students.]

No, wasn't it something special...what was it? What did effort mean?

[student: He would continue to, to teach or, or be there he just [unclear] oh it's
joyous, it's joyous.]

Is that it?

[students: [unclear] ]

[student, John Stilwell: He makes the effort because he enjoys it not for any
other reason.]

Maybe that's what it was.

[student: Joyous effort...you don't feel that?]

[laughter] Okay. Yeah {[unclear]}.

[student: You get things and not to get things.]
Getting things and not getting things, nice {[unclear]}.

[student: To be...to feel good and not to right?]

Good {[unclear]} I didn't have anybody that

[student: To be well known and not to be well known right? To, to get praised
and not to.]

{[unclear]} right {[unclear]} You guys are supposed to give a hard time, come on
{[unclear]}

[students: [unclear]]

{[unclear]} Something you're supposed to get rid of? {[unclear]} What, what is
a...is something you're gonna get rid of? {[unclear]} [cut] [unclear] Does a
buddha feel good or not? So {[unclear]}

[students: [unclear]...It's a good question.]

Whaddya mean it's a good question!? Of course it's a good question I asked
[unclear] [laughter] {[unclear]} Does a, does a buddha will feel good or not?
Does a buddha feel good?

[student: Yeah a buddha feels good.]

[student, Kylie: Does a buddha feel bad, does a buddha feel bad?]

[laughter] So he's got {[unclear]}, he's got the eight worldly dharmas?     The
Buddha didn't give up the eight worldly dharmas?

[student: No it's different, it's different.]

{[unclear]} And what's the difference?

[student: [unclear] I don't know, I know it's different.]

Nah. So, so a buddhist scholar

[students: [unclear]]
A buddhist scholar is allowed to say something to something if he doesn't
understand it or realize it? {[unclear]} No. [unclear] So if you don't understand
it you don't understand it how

[student: I give up [unclear].]

Okay okay. [laughter] {[unclear]} Buddhahood is first, right? {[unclear]} So
Buddhahood is something you want to give up right?

[student: Buddhahood is something you want to give up, no.]

To get rid of, to avoid. Yeah {[unclear]} So the eight worldly dharmas are not
something you want to give up?

[student: The eight worldly dharmas ]

[student, Kylie: Right, they're not something you want to give up.]

Shh!

[student: [unclear] ]

[laughter] {[unclear]} You don't want to give up the eight worldly dharmas?

[student: You don't want to react to them and you don't want to ]

{[unclear]} Finally someone gave me a good answer.

[student: Oooh!]

[laughter] Okay {[unclear]} Yeah {[unclear]}. There's no way in the world to
generate boddhichitta. {[unclear]}       No method in the universe to create
boddhichitta, to get boddhichitta. {[unclear]}

[student: Not, not true.]

You say {dak ma drup}!

[student: {Ta ma dru}!]
[laughter] [unclear] like this, what you talking about? Yeah, good good good
yeah, yeah {[unclear]} Are you telling me there is a way to get it? You say,
"{Ugh}!" [laughter] You say, "{Duh}!"

[student: {Duh}!]

Right that's what I said, what do you want to do about it!? {Duh}! And {tsho}!
Okay then show me.            Show me any method to, to, to, to create
boddhichitta...yeah?

[student: Can we?]

Yeah. There's a...air conditioner under there, anybody wants to [unclear].

[student: To, to, to get ]

[student: Lot of hot air in here.]

[laughter] [unclear]

[students: [unclear chatter] ]

[silence-kind of]      {Tsho}!       {[unclear]} Give me any method of getting
boddhichitta.

[student, Vilma Staiano: By either exchanging yourself for others or thinking of
others as your mother.]

Nice nice nice nice. {[unclear]} Thinking of people as your mother is a method
for, for, for generating boddhichitta? {[unclear]} So I guess seven means one
right?

[student: [unclear] What do you mean?]

Seven and one are the same thing? {Tsa chi}! Seven and one, seven means one.
[laughter] [unclear] Seven, one different or no? {[unclear]}

[student: Well they're both numbers.]
[laughter] Are they the same numbers?

[student, Vilma Staiano: No.]

So {[unclear]} I guess there's only one link in the seven cause and effect steps for
getting boddhichitta, right?! {[unclear]} Only one right?

[student, Vilma Staiano: Uh, no.]

There's only one step in the seven steps [unclear] right?

[student, Vilma Staiano: No, no there's, there is, there is thinking of, of others as
your mother, remembering your mother's kindness]

[unclear] Not too bad, not too bad.

[student, Vilma Staiano: Repaying, repaying your mother's kindness ]

[cut]

[unclear] You're supposed to keep cool and I'm supposed to go [unclear]

[student, Kylie: Don't go wild, oh come on do it right! Do it right!]

{[unclear]} Number five please, please! {[unclear]}

[student: Great compassion?]

{[unclear]}

[student: Love love]

That's it, first word. Sorry.

[student, Vilma Staiano: Love and in order to take, to take away their suffering.
[unclear] ]

[student, Kylie: [unclear] ]

Number five. Number six {tsho}.
[students: [unclear] ]

{[unclear]}

[student, Vilma Staiano: Great flexibility.]

[laughter] That's number seven. What's number seven. Number seven {tsho},
{[unclear]} There's only six steps?

[student, Vilma Staiano: I know but I can't remember ]

[students: [unclear] ]

How can you say there's two merits if you don't know the second merit?

[student, Vilma Staiano: Do I know part of the ]

[laughter]

[student, John Stilwell: That's why it's called the seven part method.]

{[unclear]} What's number [unclear]?

[student: What's number six?]

[student: Reaching, reaching boddhichitta.]

{[unclear]} Boddhichitta's a way to get boddhichitta?! {[unclear]}

[student: [unclear] having the wish to become a boddhisattva.]

[student: You want to a buddha so you know how to help everybody.]

[students: [verbal melee] ]

{[unclear]} So I guess that cause and its effect can exist at the same time right?

[student: [unclear] ]
The method and the result exist at the same time?

[student: At the end yeah.]

{[unclear]} So a cause and its result can exist at the same time? The acorn and the
tree that grows out of the acorn [unclear] at the same time? Can a cause and an
effect exist at the same time or not? Are they {lokta}...can a cause and its result
exist at the same time?

??? [student: [unclear]] ???

{[unclear]} [laughter] So an acorn and the tree that that acorn grew can exist at
the same time? So, so how can the number seven step of getting boddhichitta be
boddhichitta?

[student, Laura: Because of the wish.]

[students: [unclear]]

No it's, it's true...[unclear]. Number seven is actually the, the result of [unclear].

[student: The responsibility?]

[students: [unclear] ]

Number six is [unclear] seven is actual boddhichitta. You have boddhichitta,
number seven is the result, that's why...one of the reasons why its called cause
and effect.

[student: But isn't Michael, that for certain point of realization the path and the
result become [unclear] usually the path...the method and the result are much
different.]

We'll get there, we'll get there. That's in next class [unclear] Okay [unclear] we
go. Number...{[unclear]} no, I guess there's no two truths right? Nobody could
tell me the two truths. {[unclear]} Say {tak ma drup}.

[student, Laura: I have to show you.]

{Tak ma drup}, {tak ma drup} means "[unclear]                 of course there's two
truths." {[unclear]} Are there two truths or not? [laughter] {[unclear]} There's
no deceptive truth and ultimate truth? {[unclear]}

[student, Laura: Deceptive truth isn't a truth?]

{[unclear]} Are you saying deceptive truth isn't truth?

[student, Laura: It's a deceptive reality.]

So deceptive truth isn't truth right?

[student, Laura: No.]

So we don't call it truth right?

[student, Laura: We can call it that [unclear] ]

Aghh! You got me, you got me. Good answer, good answer, and she stuck to
her guns see? You gotta, you gotta act like you know what you're doing, even if
you don't. Half the time you win anyway. [laughter] [cut]

[end side one of tape]

Very important in a debate, just keep going. Okay Stilwell, {[unclear]} Emptiness
and the appearance of things are completely contradictory...nothing could be
empty and also be...deceptive truth [unclear] the same truth, impossible. They're
contradictory {[unclear]}.

[student, John Stilwell: What are you, crazy?]

{Tak ma drup} okay good good good good yeah.          {[unclear]} Are you telling
me they're not contradictory?

[student, John Stilwell: Yes. ]

They're not? Say {duh}.

[student, John Stilwell: {Duh}]

That's what I said. Yeah why not? {Tsho}! Why not?
[student, John Stilwell: They both exist.]

{[unclear]} So crows and owls are not contradictory na?

[student, John Stilwell: [unclear] owls?]

Crows and owls.

[student, John Stilwell: Are not contradictory?]

Yeah, there's a tibetan saying that crows can't stand owls. [laughter] When an
owl's sitting on a branch a crow will never sit on the same branch. So crows and
owls love each other right? {[unclear]}

[student, John Stilwell: Yeah, crows and owls don't like each other.]

{[unclear]} They both don't exist? {[unclear]}

[student, John Stilwell: How [unclear] go from liking to existing?]

Do they exist or not? Exist or not?

[student, John Stilwell: They appear to exist and they do exist.]

Do crows and owls exist or not?

[student, John Stilwell: Yes they exist.]

Okay they exist. So...no they don't because they are {[unclear]}.           They're
mutually exclusive. {[unclear]}

[student, John Stilwell: Because they're mutually exclusive they don't exist?]

They don't exist...that's what you said!

[student, John Stilwell: No I didn't.]

You said the opposite.
[student, John Stilwell: The opposite of what?]

You said they exist because they're not mutually exclusive.

[student, John Stilwell: They exist because they're not...I never said that.]

Oh {[unclear]}! So I guess emptiness and karma are contradictory...mutually
exclusive, if one's true the other can't be true.

[student, John Stilwell: No I didn't say that.]

{[unclear]}

[student, John Stilwell: Scalawag. You're making this up.]

So you're saying [laughter] that they're not...now you're saying they are
contradictory? Now you say they are contradictory?

[student, John Stilwell: Karma and emptiness are not contradictory.]

Mutually exclusive?

[student, John Stilwell: They're not...contradictory]

Are they mutually exclusive?

[student, John Stilwell: Do they exclude each other, no they do not exclude each
other.]

Aw good. Then that's the test of something's existing right?

[student, John Stilwell: Whether ]

Whether they're mutually exclusive or not. You said because they're not a
mutually exclusive...you said they're not mutually exclusive because they exist.
That's what you said.

[student, John Stilwell: I said they...[unclear] ]

That's what you said.
[students: [unclear] ]

[student, Fran Dayan: [unclear] recording.]

{[unclear]} Do they exclude each other or not? Can something be both or not?

[student, John Stilwell: Yes they can be both.]

{[unclear]} Let's talk about this box. {[unclear]} Is it emptiness?

[student, John Stilwell: It has emptiness.]

Aw good answer. Yeah {[unclear]} It has emptiness? {[unclear]}

[student, John Stilwell: {Duh}]

{Duh} good good good. {Tsho}! What's its emptiness?                   Can you see its
emptiness? {[unclear]} Can you see its emptiness?

[student, John Stilwell: No [unclear]]

{[unclear]} How can you say it has emptiness if you can't see its emptiness?

[student, John Stilwell: Emptiness is absence you can't see absence.]

How do you know it has emptiness if you can't see it? If you can't perceive its
emptiness why are you telling me its empty?

[student, John Stilwell: Because I can't see it.]

{[unclear]} Then you can't see a...photons in this room, or whatever. So they
don't exist or what?

[student, John Stilwell: No they're simply beyond my visual perceptive capacity.]

Alright alright. So is this box empty or not?

[student, John Stilwell: It has emptiness yeah.]
[unclear] So this box has emptiness {yin ba ta}.

[student, John Stilwell: Yeah.]

So it doesn't have dependence, {[unclear]}.

[student, John Stilwell: Yes it has dependence also.]

{[unclear]} What's its dependence? Suppose you're an {Abhidharma}.

[student, John Stilwell: Uh, okay.]

We say in the monastery, put on the {Abhidharma} hat.

[student, John Stilwell:    It has, it has, it has...it has causes, it has trees and
factories ]

Yeah good good good and that's its dependence right?

[student, John Stilwell: Depends on those things.]

{[unclear]} Kylie. {[unclear]} Wear the [unclear] hat, {[unclear]}.

[student, Kylie: Okay.]

Yeah. {[unclear]} What is its dependent origination? {[unclear]}

[student, Kylie: Well the first school did the causes, the second school would be
its parts ]

{[unclear]}

[student, Kylie: The parts of the box, the lid, the bottom, etc., what are you
talking about?]

The parts are {[unclear]}. The parts are its dependent origination? What are you
talking about?

[student, Kylie: It depends on its parts to be.]
Oh. Oh. So

[student, Kylie: That's what I'm talking about [unclear] ]

So dependent origination depends on its parts, {yin ba ta}.

[student, Kylie: Dependent origination means that it, it depends on its parts for
its existence.]

Ahh that won't stick, no...finally we got to it, okay. Yeah {[unclear]}. What's the
ultimate position? [unclear]

[student: It's purely imputed.]

What's its emptiness...I'm sorry, what's its dependent origination?

[student: It's, it's merely imputed.]

It depends...you always have to say then it depends on 'blank' for its existence.
That's, that's how you state it.

[student: You mean in a debate?]

No, [unclear] in english. It's dependent origination is that, is that it depends on
me, what?

[students: To give it a name...to give it a name and a label.]

To exist, depends on me perceiving it a certain way.

[student: I was gonna state it differently you just didn't give me a chance.]

{[unclear]} Excusez-moi. [laughter] Show, show me. Let's hear it, let's hear it.
{Tsho, tsho, tsho, tsho, tsho}. Let's hear what you're gonna say. {Tsho}.

[student: I, I was gonna say it was im...im...impu...it was merely imputed, in
dependence on...conception, conceptual designation and a basis of imputation.]

[laughs] Okay, that's alright. [unclear]
[students: [unclear]]



{[unclear]} The self exists, right? The self exists.

[student: {Dak! Dak!}]

[laughs] [laughter] [unclear] Are you telling me it's...{[unclear]} [laughter]
[unclear] and when you're talking to somebody, he pulls up behind you...Bam!

[students: [unclear] ]

Yeah yeah yeah. The next day you have these dots on your head like this.

[student, Fran Dayan: [unclear] debating is one to one, or it like ]

If, you know, if you...we got into it, if you guys wanted to say, "Oh let's get
[unclear]" I mean three people would jump up and start to go at it...at the
beginning it's very ordered, and at the end it's this big riot, there's a big crowd,
everyone's screaming you know? [unclear] Yeah, {[unclear]} you telling me that
milk self exists? Are you telling me milk self exists? {[unclear]}

[student: Yes.]

{[unclear]} Yes, good good good. Say {duh}.

[student: {Duh}?]

{Duh, duh}

[student: {Duh.}]

Right. It means "that's what I said, yes". {[unclear]} So [unclear] doesn't exist
right? {[unclear]}

[student: No.]

Oh good good good. No yes what? [laughter] Oh [unclear] does exist?

[student: No.]
He doesn't exist? Who am I debating with?

[student: Just [unclear]]

[unclear]

[students: [unclear] ]

[laughter] [unclear] she beat me.

[student, Kylie: What's the noise that you utter when it's like yeah right on you
know, how do you do it, ooouuu.]

No, 'ou' means you didn't get it, did you?

[student, Kylie: Well what's the one that means you got it? [unclear]]

All right that's all. No what's the...final is when? By the way, that's most of the
stuff on your final, there will be nothing on your final that's not on your quizzes,
you have to study your quizzes...you don't need to know the verses, okay?

[student: We didn't have [unclear] ]

I promise it'll only be things on the quiz. It'll only be things on the quiz.

[student: I found very troublesome that yellow book when it talks about this
course...it's very confusing. I read it three or four times.]

You'll have five years of it, don't worry.

[students: [unclear] ]

You will, you will put on the hat of the [unclear]. We will, we will be
{Abhidharma}s for, for a year and then we will be {[unclear]} for a year. Don't
worry. By the end of that you'll believe your position and then you'll hear the
next position.

[student: Why, why do we go through all those positions?]
The Buddha taught them all for people of different [unclear].             Some people
couldn't handle the one final one.

[student: Can I ask you something [unclear] 'cause I was debating Janet and she
was saying the object of sight exists, let's say that [unclear] exists, right? Is not
that it doesn't exist at all because according to the [unclear] school, it exists only if
I put the [unclear] name and the concept [unclear] but I think then the other, the
lower school they still hold truth in the sense [unclear] exist because [unclear].]

Independent of my

[student: It exists conventionally ]

Independent of my thinking.

[student: What?]

Independent of my perception.

[student: Independent of [unclear] ]

Whether I perceived it

[student: Then the fact is that for every single thing that exists in this world
[unclear] seems that it doesn't...they don't exist [unclear] but really the object
exists because it's based on its parts on causes.]

That's also true

[student: Outside you, you name it.]

But that...if, if you name the parts. That's true. Okay. Now you guys go out
to...what's the...who's riding with whom now, I gotta get some...[unclear] is also
going

[students: Who's going? I'm going. I'm going with Eric now.]

Are you driving?

[cut]
And it seems to you the first time, to be violent or something, but it's very
healthy and if you do it with a good heart, and friendly, and you've just, you're
just [unclear] you know? And it should be like that. And what it means is that in
your m...when it comes

[student: Sort of assertiveness training, right?]

When you're meditating, what...it gets you into a state of mind where you say, "I
know what I know. I've ripped apart what I know. I've had people yell at me,
question me, debate me, challenge me on what I know, and I've made mistakes
and then I fixed my positions, and now I know what I know. And what I know,
I know.        And I know why I know it, and I know what I...and I know
what...what's wrong with other positions and I've heard them all. And I can
defend my position...and then mentally when you're meditating you...you, you
know that you're right, I mean that's how you know you're right, is reasoning.
So it's, it's a very, very healthy thing, it's not, you know, don't worry about the
form of it...which you must learn, and you will learn, and we'll use it...but you
can a lot faster...you, you know, you go home...Michael Wick was with me the
other day studying his quizzes and he fell asleep like three times [laughter] and
you're not gonna fall asleep today you know? And in your, your struggle, you
have to struggle, and it hurts and it's unpleasant and monks do drop out because
they can't take the heat of the debate but don't, don't worry about that, just do it,
just do it, and it's very, very healthy and you can learn so much so fast and then
people...when you have your students, and people question you, you're cool,
you understand your position, you've been through everything before, you
know the objections to the position already, you've already handled them
hundreds of times, and you're just able to, to lead people clearly and you're able
to think clearly about what you believe, and it's very good really so don't think
it's...we'll have fun, it was very hard for me the first few years to, to do it.

[students: [unclear] [laughter] ]

[student: You know what you're saying.]

I didn't know what they were saying, I couldn't understand it.

[student, Vilma Staiano: You said to answer in tibetan?]

Yeah yeah.
And it just sounds

[student, Kylie: [unclear] Is it, is it also designed to get your ego right in your
face too I mean?]

It is, it is. You will never reach the heights of geshe if you can't be humble, if you
can't take it being beaten in public...and humiliated in public, you, you won't get
there. If you want to preserve your

[student: But nobody can watch, see the tibetans blushing.]

No, what do you [unclear]?

[student: I turn bright red.]

No don't worry and, and I swear [unclear] makes you sure of what you know,
and you can help other people 'cause you've heard all the objections, you've been
tested, you've been challenged...it's very nice [unclear] and it's ancient, I mean the
Buddha was using this [unclear]. Okay. We have to do [unclear]

[cut]




              ACI Course 1: The Principal Teachings of Buddhism, July-August 1993
                                      RAW TRANSCRIPT


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