ACI 1 «Основные учения буддизма», занятие 2

ACI Course I, Class Two
57a.txt
transcribed by: Louise Rosenthal
7/12/93



...basically synonyms there are some differences, but {sonam} is usually
translated as "[unclear]". And {gewa} is virtue.

[student: You're on the air. ]

[unclear] [laughter] is the question. Okay. Now I wanna do a game in tibetan
debating called {mu shim gu su}, okay? {Mu shim gu su}. {Mu shi mu su}. And
between any two things there are always {mu shi} or {mu sung}, {mu shi} means
"four".

[student: {Shi} means?]

{Shi} means "four". And {sung} means "three". Combination...I'll show you what
I want.

[student: [unclear] ]

Yeah, okay. {Mu shi mu su}. So {mu} means a possible combination of the two
[unclear] things now I'll give you an example. Aah, blue and sky, {mush}...four
{mu}s or three {mu}s? Four {mu}s means there's something that's the sky, but
that's not blue. The sky of this planet.

[student, John Stilwell: Is, is that mean that the four contains the three [unclear]?]

Well no. Let's discuss the four possible combinations between blue and sky.
Okay? Is it possible to have something that's the sky of this earth and not blue?

[student: Yeah.]

Mm-hmm, right.

[student, Kylie: On the cloud, that kind.]
[student: It could be grey, it could be [unclear], it could be black.]

I mean normally, I mean normally we say the sky is blue, right? Not green or
yellow, I mean in normal conversation, maybe they...not, not getting these
okay? Actually that {mu} doesn't exist. If the {mu} of being number one but not
being number two doesn't exist with the sky...of earth, in a normal day, blah-
blah-blah, okay? If it's the sky normally it's blue, it's a...a definition, the clear blue
sky, okay? So that first {mu} does not exist, the sky of this planet on a normal
day blah-blah-blah which is not...something which is the sky and not blue, (A)
but not (B), doesn't exist. How about something which is (B) but not (A)? Kylie.
Blue but not the sky.

[student, Fran Dayan: The answer is yes, there are blue things without the sky.]

Yeah like what? Something that's blue but not the sky.

[student, Fran Dayan: The ocean.]

[student, Kylie: Okay normal day.]

Assuming normal. Is...so the second {mu} exists, the first {mu} doesn't exist, that
which is (A) but not (B) doesn't exist, that which is (B) but not (A) does exist.
Something which is (A) and (B)?

[student, Vilma Staiano: The sky and a?]

Yeah, the sky. The sky is both the sky, and blue. So it's just the third {mu}. So
the third {mu} exists, so we got two out of three so far, something which is not
the sky and which is not blue? Neither (A) nor (B)?

[student, Kylie: [unclear] my shirt.]

Yeah, fine, okay not this kind of notebook, okay? So when you, when you don't
have a debate at the monastery, you take any two things and say, "{Mu shi mu
sum be be be}[CLAP]?", "{Mushi mu sum be be be}[CLAP]?" Say {mu shi}
[repeat], {mu sum}[repeat], {me be aitchu}[CLAP][repeat], {mu shi mu sum}
[repeat], {me be aitchu}[CLAP][repeat]. Okay, {me be aitchu} means "there is
none".
[students: [trying to repeat {me be aitchu}] ]

{Me be aitchun} [repeat], {me be aitchu}[repeat]...{me be aitchun}[CLAP], it's a
cheap way to start a debate. You don't have any things, you know, you didn't
memorize the text you were supposed to memorize, or something you know,
{mu shi mu sum me be aitchun}[CLAP], it's just a way to start, y'know? Which
means, there's now three possible, three, three of the four possible combinations
don't exist, neither do four of the four possible combinations exist. Which is
impossible, between any two objects that exist in the universe, there's always
{mu shi} or {mu sum}, okay? So it's a good way to start a debate, {mushi mu
sum me be}[CLAP] about anything, about anything. So I'm gonna start with
you...no, who's my victim? Kylie, you're next. Vilma, did? No you didn't, no.
Tom...between {gewa}, virtue, okay? And cause for Buddhahood, cause for
Buddhahood, {mushi mu sum me be aitchu}[CLAP]. This keeps the students
awake too. {Mu shi mu sum me be aitchu}[CLAP] there's no three or four
combinations, between something that causes Buddhahood, and virtue, virtue
meaning in a good deed, not killing, not stealing, no sexual misconduct, no lying,
no slander, no harsh words, no idle talk, there were no craving, no ill will, no
wrong view.

[student, John Stilwell: So, so am I supposed to prove...to say something?]

{Mu shi mu sum me be aitchu}[CLAP] I say there's no {mu shi} either, there's no
{mu sum} between cause for Buddhahood and virtue.

[student, John Stilwell: There's no relationship?]

In other words I'm saying, is virtue always a cause for Buddhahood? [CLAP]
{Mushi mu sum me be aitchu}[CLAP], yes. [laughter] {Mu sum yaw}[CLAP], so I
say {mu sum yaw}[CLAP]...no {mu shi}, you're saying there's {mu shi}.

[student, John Stilwell: Well could you define {mu shi} so we get it?]

[laughter] We'll go through them, we'll go through them, {bu ton mo shaw}
[CLAP], show me the first {mu}[CLAP], something which is a cause for
Buddhahood, but not virtue, {sho}[CLAP]. {Sho} means "give it to me, give it to
me" [CLAP], {sho}, something which is a cau...which is gonna get you to
Buddhahood, but is not virtue [CLAP]. Huh?

[student, John Stilwell: Emptiness?]
It's gonna get you to Buddhahood, it's a cause.

[student, John Stilwell: And is emptiness a cause for Buddhahood?]

No, emptiness [unclear] something as a cause for Buddhahood [CLAP]? Yes or
no yes or no, yes [CLAP] yes, ah. {Rim ba ah}[CLAP], say it is, in the, in the
debate you just check, okay you say it is right?

[student, John Stilwell: It's...I mean it's a, it's a path, it's a, it's a component, it's a
cause, I dunno.]

[student: [unclear] ]

[unclear] or not [CLAP].

[student, John Stilwell: Okay, no!]

[laughter] [CLAP] {Spa}! Aren't, aren't you ashamed of yourself? I'll, I'll pick it
up.

[student, Kylie: Yes, emptiness is a cause for everything. Buddhahood included.]

Ay-ay-ay-ay-ay-ay-na-na-na-na-na-na [CLAP] First you said it was then you said
it wasn't, make up your mind [CLAP] {mu ta eema}

[student, John Stilwell: Is there a maybe in this?]

Is it a cause [laughter] maybe no maybes, is it a cause for Buddhahood? Is...I
need something which is a cause for Buddhahood and not virtue.

[student, John Stilwell: Perception of emptiness is [unclear] ]

Virtue {mah eem ba}[CLAP]. It's not virtue, to perceive emptiness? It's not a
good deed?

[student, Kylie: Results of...[unclear]]

It's the ultimate good deed, [b: Abhidharma] says, I could look it up for you, I'm
a little lazy
[student, John Stilwell: I would say it's not a deed.]

Oh, thinking you think, not a deed? [CLAP][CLAP]{Sha}! [laughs]

[student, Kylie:   Oh you mean when you're seeing emptiness you'll still be
thinking?]

[students: [unclear] ]

[unclear] {Le le jikten natso kay.      Le mi tsemmo} fourth chapter [b:
Abhidharmakosha], the universe is created by karma, karma is the thinking.

[student, John Stilwell: And so, there is a karma with a [unclear] or there isn't a
karma?]

No, perceiving emptiness is, is thinking.

[student, John Stilwell: There is no, is no perceiving]

[CLAP] Thinking is an action, karma means action.

[student, John Stilwell: There is no, there is no object and subject, I mean, or
anything]

[CLAP] Hah! [laughs] Hah![CLAP] Hah![CLAP] [laughter]

[student, Kylie: I was wondering why your hands were always so red.]

So there's, yeah, yeah, so {ho ma ma meh} there's nobody who perceives
emptiness?

[student, John Stilwell: There's no perceiving, no.]

[laughter][CLAP] No wait, don't get mad. [CLAP] So, {yang da pay tawa}
[CLAP] {mao ta}, there's no {yang dakpay tawa}?

[student, John Stilwell: What's a [unclear]?]

You tell me, {yang dakpay tawa}[CLAP]
[student, John Stilwell: What is that?]

{Tsho. [CLAP] Yang dakpay tawa}. What is {yang dakpay tawa}?

[students: Correct view...emptiness.]

Correct view. [laughter] Emptiness is the object, {yang da pay tawa} is the, is
the subject. {Yang dakpay tawa} holds emptiness. I used to make that mistake
all the time.

[student: {Yang dakpay tawa} is...[unclear] emptiness]

Yeah, emptiness is what you're looking at, and {yang dakpay tawa} is the looker.
It is the state of mind which sees empt...

[student, John Stilwell: The correct views is a state of mind. ]

Sure, it sees emptiness, okay? So the perception of emptiness is definitely a good
karma, definitely

[student, John Stilwell: The act of perceiving, now I'm talking about ]

[student, Kylie: Is it a result of a good karma?]

Is the...it's also a result of the good karma but it also is good karma

[student, Kylie: In that it produces good karma.]

[CLAP] Normally, except what? {Kye chi pa damo chu}[CLAP]

[student, Kylie: Except for uhh]

Present good karma.

[student, Kylie: Present good karma? What does that mean?]

Does not produce anything. [CLAP][CLAP] {Tsa}! [laughs]

[student, Kylie: [unclear] good karma.]
Okay, anyway, now give me a {mu}, I'm still waiting, something that causes
Buddhahood but is not a good deed. Thinking a good thought, the ultimate
good thought of seeing emptiness is definitely, it's good, goodness.

[student, John Stilwell: Possibly it's not virtue. ]

[CLAP] Not a virtue.

[student, John Stilwell: Okay so what if it isn't money?]

I don't think there is, I mean I would say no. [laughter] I'll say, yeah I'll say, no,
it's okay? I'm talking {mu} here, I mean, technically samsara causes Buddhahood
'cause it precedes and produces it. That's another point. Okay. So, there is the
first {mu}, first {mu} exists, okay? That which is...I'm sorry, the first {mu} doesn't
exist. That which is a cause for Buddhahood but not goodness, doesn't exist. Fact
{yo ai imba}, {sag ig me imba sho!}[CLAP] How about {mu} number two? That
which is not

[student, Kylie: Can you say that...the very fact that there is the condition of, of
non-goodness is why there are buddhas?]

Yah well...let's move in this [unclear] [laughter] Let's finish my, including...okay,
something which is goodness, but not a cause for Buddhahood. [CLAP] {Gyewa
yimba}?

[student, John Stilwell: Something which is goodness which is not ]

Not a cause for Buddhahood. [CLAP] Let's do things.

[student, John Stilwell: Thanks.]

[student: Doing something that's good but not doing [unclear] ]

That's pretty close I think, that's pretty good.

[student: Like you're gon' do this last time, thinking [unclear] ]

A good deed, which you do, without understanding, without {yang dakpay
tawa}.
[student, John Stilwell: With correct motivation, incorrect [unclear] ]

Yeah.      It's, is, is not a cause for Buddhahood.          That's a common
misperce...misperce...misconception, okay? You can do good deeds that don't
cause Buddhahood, that will not lead you to Buddhahood, they will lead you to
the opposite which is what? What we call samsara which is this suffering life.
Samsara is the condition of having, these, we call {sa tchay pu bu mao}, these,
these parts that are impermanent, flesh, bone, dirty mind, okay? During
conception, the whole thing is samsara, okay? It's a cause for that. So what
makes all...what is the...what do you need to make {gewa} a cause for
Buddhahood? [CLAP] {Mu}s number two, {tu tsho}, {tsho}! [CLAP]

[student: What do you need to [unclear] ]

{Sangye gyu yimba}? {Gewa yimba}. [CLAP] Yeah show me the third {mu}
which is what?

[student: Correct view.]

No, what's the third {mu}, we're gonna have two parts.

[student: Has both [unclear] ]

Yeah, that which is both, what?

[student, John Stilwell: [unclear] and virtue.]

No. That which is both a

[students: Virtue and a cause for Buddhahood.]

A cause for Buddhahood yeah. That which is both a virtue, and a cause for
Buddha...that which is both a good deed, meaning a good deed of mind, speech
or body, and is also a cause for Buddhahood {tsho}. [CLAP]

[student: Um, compassion.]

Not necessarily. You can have compassion for your child for example. It won't
lead you to Buddhahood. It's a very tricky question, a very important question.
[student: Do I have to be a [unclear] ]

[CLAP] It's okay, basically you can say, that, that the {mu}, the {mu} here is any
{gewa}, any good deed which is imbued with {lam tso nam sum}, any good deed
which you do under the influence of {lam sam nam sum}, okay? Any good deed
you do under the influence of {lam tso nam sum}, you must have all three. Any
deed you don't do, with those three tho...attitudes in your heart, will not lead
you to Buddhahood.

[students: [unclear] ]

My god, {tsho}! [CLAP] {Lam tso nam sum tsho}[CLAP] {Lam tso nam sum
tsho}[CLAP] Gimme the [unclear] Do it. Yeah, yeah

[student: Renunciation, boddhichitta and correct view.]

Yeah. Okay?

[student, Kylie: You, you don't have correct view already, that's why you're
studying buddhism right? So somewhere along the line]

Right. So most of what you do won't cause you to be a buddha. Most of even
the good deeds that you intend are not gonna make you a buddha.

[student, Kylie: So you really don't even start becoming a buddha until after you
understand correct view.]

Right.

[student, Kylie: Even though you're called a buddhist and you're practicing
buddhism and mahayana buddhism [unclear] ]

Like the six perfections...you actually have to have number six before number
one is [unclear]

[student, Fran Dayan: I heard they were all combined, you know. ]

If you do charity without knowledge, it's not a perfection. There's a big debate
about it. There's a big debate.
[student, Fran Dayan: If you would Mike, I want to ask a question on whether
you should do one as opposed to another, and the answer was that they were all
[unclear] in each. ]

That's another approach, yeah.

[student, Kylie: Then, I just became a buddhist today and I have no idea what
the correct view is or anything like that, ]

Right.

[student, Kylie: And I sat through a nice class where I heard some of these
things and I got to study for years before I can even understand it.]

No, you can understand

[student, Kylie: Wait a minute, wait a minute, alright let's just say that we talked
about blue skies in, in buddhist class right? And but at the end of the class the
teacher says, "You know what? You want all this virtue you got some virtue
here but now you want it make it specifically dedicated to achieving
Buddhahood so we say this dedication prayer at the end", is that a cause even
though I don't understand yet correct view?]

Not really.

[student, Kylie: No.]

Not really. If you don't have those three attitudes in your mind it can take...they
don't directly act as cause...

[student, John Stilwell: Although there is, it is a cause.]

They act as a factor.

[student, John Stilwell: Although, although it is a cause, but for attaining some
better goal although not Buddhahood.]

Yeah it doesn't directly [unclear]. Does not act as a direct cause for Buddhahood.
But again I'll say yes, {gen} means "factor", like fertilizer for a plant, not the seeds.
Okay?

[student, John Stilwell: [unclear] the full cause for the first or second benefit?]

Something like that. It's not worthless, right? I mean if this class didn't cause you
to get the {lam tso nam sum}, you wouldn't be here alright? Okay. Okay, so
that's very important, if you don't have...if you're not doing good deeds, to get
out of this suffering, to help other people, ultimately, and with the
understanding of emptiness which is difficult to learn, will not cause you to
[unclear]. Won't have...without those three ideas. Interesting, I used to think that
any good deed would help, but, not necessary. That's why we did the, the
debate, okay.

[student, John Stilwell: So Michael can you, can you define the main issue, is that
basically saying neither goal, one and not the other? The other, not the one?]

Yeah, not...(A) but not (B). (B) but not (A). (A) and (B). Neither (A) nor (B),
that's {mu shi wo su}. [unclear] All, all two objects in the world have either four
or three {mu}s. There is no other choice. All, all, all fiel...the permutations are
only three or four.

[student: One or two?]

No, there is no such thing. Everything in the world, is either {mu su} or {mu shi}.
If it exists, the relationship between two existing things in the world is always
{mu shi} or {mu su}.

[student: Between [unclear] is always three, four not one and two? ]

You can get the meaning of [unclear] next week. Okay.

[student: (A) not (B), (B) not (A), (A) and (B), and not (A) not (B).]

Right. And it's great for a debate. And it's great to understand something, it's a
very useful tool for understanding something.

[student: But you have to define the term, 'cause that's what gets so confusing,
'cause people, unless they define their terms you're talking at cross terms.]

Yeah yeah, usually, they're not talking about the same. Okay. So the question is
[silence] Where did I get that?

[student, John Stilwell: So {mu shi, mu shi woo shoo mu zoo} is the name for
that whole concept of three and not four?]

Yeah, three or four common [unclear], three or four...[unclear], permutations
really but that's [unclear].

[student: We just write down the transliteration]

Yeah memorize it.

[student: Can we learn the alphabet [unclear] ]

Yeah, and I will give a little bit of the alphabet, do you guys want to do some
alphabet? You guys want to do some [unclear]. I mean...no? [unclear] Are we
anti-tibetan here, or just

[student: Lazy.]

[student, Kylie: We are the english track you know.]

[students: [unclear] ]

[student: I wish you'd do something.]

I'll do a little bit.

[student, Kylie: [unclear] get carried away.]

Well I'll plant some in your brain, then I'll sneak in some alphabet. Okay, please
say {tchakya}[repeat], {chenmo}[repeat], {tchakya}[repeat], {chenmo}[repeat].
What's the...sanskrit for {chenmo}? Like [unclear].

[student: [unclear] ]

{Maha}, like {mahakmagandhi}, {akma} means "person", {maha} means "big", big
man, big gandhi. {Maha}. You know what {shakya} means? Kylie, close.

[student: Gesture?]
Yeah, sanskrit [unclear]

[student: {Mahamudra}?]

Yeah. [unclear]

[student: How do you spell that, [unclear] spell that 'cha', it says 'ka'?]

High as in {changkai tsok}. {Pa} with a 'ya' which looks up to [unclear].

[student: What is {mudra}?]

{Mudra} usually means a gesture. This is a {mudra}, this is a {mudra}. But it has
many, many other meanings, it also means "seal" that you put on something.
You know when you send a letter and you put the wax, and put a stamp.

[students: [unclear] ]

{Wait}.

[student: {Wait}?]

Yeah meaning {wait} strengthens the {ga} in, in {reading}, it becomes {le ga}.
Something like that, seems to. {Mul, mul, mul, le ga}, magnitude, magnifier,
[unclear]. {Mahamudra}. {Mahamudra}. Basically, refers to the direct perception
of emptiness, the direct perception of emptiness in our school.

[student, Kylie: The great gesture? Is the great perception? ]

Great seal. It is the great

[student, Kylie: [unclear] a seal or gesture?]

I call it seal.

[student, Kylie: You call it ]

[student: [unclear] perception ]
Yeah, of emptiness. You can perceive emptiness too by explanation in this class
during this class. But you can only see emptiness directly in deep meditation, in
fact you can't even be in the desire realm at that time your mind has to be on the
next level.

[student: Jeffrey Hopkins makes the distinction between the realization and
perception of emptiness and the experiential...well the experience, of that direct
experience of emptiness will be tantric and won't be?]

No, I don't know, but, I can't talk about that too much.       Don't know much.
Okay.

[student: Is it? I thought {mahamudra} was tantric.]

Well some people...it can refer to a tantric [unclear] or it can be [unclear]. In
sutra it refers to the direct perception of emptiness. Sutra meaning non-secret
buddhist, as opposed to tantric, okay? So I ask you, if you meet some great
tantric master, some great master of the secret buddhism, and he teaches you
{mahamudra}, okay? Can you...give me {mu shi mu sum} about the practice of
{mahamudra} and {lam tso nam sum}.[CLAP] Tantric practice, highest buddhist
practice, and {lam sum nam sum}, {mu shi mu su me be aiso}. [CLAP] Tell me
about the first two, is there something which is the practice of {mahamuhdra},
but, but the person does not have {lam sum nam sum}, he does not have those
three realizations in his mind, but he's still trying to keep {mahamudra}, {mu shi
mu su me be aitcho}, is there the first one? Can...is there the true practice of
mahamudra, is there true tantric practice without those three things in your
mind? Impossible, impossible. Why? Tantra is {je bu tak bra} which means
"result vehicle", okay? Tantra is the result. What's the {gyu}, what's the cause of
tantra?

[student: The direct perception of emptiness?]

Not only...I mean, you can have the direct perception of emptiness and not have
boddhichitta.

[student: You can?]

Sure. [unclear]

[student: So then you can have, so then you can have, mahamudra without {lam
sum yam sum}. You just said it.]

[CLAP]{Tha}[CLAP], say it, {tha}.[CLAP]

[student: {Tha}. [CLAP] ]

[laughter]

[student, Kylie: Does that means "gotcha"? ]

Gotcha.      {Tha}, {tha} means "{mo tha}" means "aren't you ashamed of
yourself?" [laughter] "Gotcha!"

[student: [unclear] hand slapping [unclear] ]

So it's...I mean I have to practice, as a, as a mahayana practice, no, impossible.

[student, Kylie: In other words our perception of emptiness, can only be
actualized through {lam sum} our {lam tso nam sum}.]

Not our, I mean buddha's {lam tso nam sum}.

[student, Kylie: Well there's others like [unclear] but other peoples correct view,
I mean are there other kinds of tantra that can be used?]

No, there are not other kinds of correct view or other kinds of tantra.

[student, Kylie: There's no other kind of tantra, any other tantra that asserts
itself unless it's Buddha's mahayana tantra is inauthentic?]

Right.

[student: It's hindu.]

[student, Kylie: Hindu tantra.]

It's not tantra. Anyway, it's not [unclear]. Anyway, don't worry about it. What
I'm saying is that...tantric practice is a result that occurs because you have {lam
tso nam sum}. If you had {lam tso nam sum} perfectly, for example, if your
morality were perfect, if you kept those ten, those plain old ten good deeds,
perfectly, perfectly, tantra would occur to you. Your life would begin to...you
would begin to see deities and whatever, okay? And in fact, that's the only way,
there is no other way. So, if you try to do {chakya chenbo}, and you don't have
for example, if you don't have those ten virtues very good, nothing'll happen,
nothing.

[student: Won't they tell you before you take a tantric initiation that you must
have at least some understanding, I mean ]

Sure.

[student: That they explain that to you very carefu...I mean ]

What I mean as a, as an actual experience to yourself, I'm not talking about
getting instruction in it.

[student, Kylie: Why you making the distinction between a person who may
have gotten some initiations and maybe even be practicing and maybe even for
years, the difference between that person and, and somebody who has actually
made progress to the point where they're experiencing it, whether they'd been
practicing for years or not, that's, that's the difference.]

Right, right, yeah, one is the cause

[student, Kylie: You can do it your whole life and still not get it, think you have
it.]

Yeah you can do it your whole...what I'm saying is let's put it the opposite way. If
you practice, if you get some high initiation, and nothing happens within a year
or two, you don't have {lam tso nam sum}, and that's why nothing's happening.
Let's put it that way.

[student, Kylie: But on the other hand, the fact that ]

The other hand you have {lam tso nam sum}.

[student, Kylie: A tantric initiation has appeared in your life, is an indication of
possibly you have {lam tso nam sum}]

You had good feed...
[student, Kylie: Or at least if not having it you're getting it in that direction.]

Yeah, no, obviously, yeah. You have the honor to attend initiation, even if you
don't know what's going on. But what I'm saying is this, and I repeat it: {Lam
tso nam sum} is the cause of tantra. Tantra is result vehicle, meaning...it happens
to you. Why? Because you have {lam tso nam sum}.

[student: What is {lam tso nam sum} in english?]

{Ai ya}! Where's your, where's your quiz? [laughter]

[student: In the three path? ]

Yeah yeah yeah.

[student: Okay.]

Three principal paths.

[student, Kylie: She wants to know if [unclear] ]

Okay, you gotta have all three, alright? What I'm saying is, you know you read
these books and they say, oh you gotta have these three, but that's the point.
Tantra is the only way you're gonna become a buddha in this life. It, it occurs to
you if your {lam tso nam sum} is pure. What's the converse? If you don't have
{lam tso num sum}, it's impossible, nothing will happen and you see lots of
people who say...you know I interviewed thirty people, I had some people, I had
the list of their tantric initiations, it was like three or four pages long. They say,
"Well nothing's happening", you know, "nothing", you know. No {lam tso nam
sum}. If you have {lam tso nam sum} something will happen quickly and if you
don't...if you don't even know what they are, forget it. Impossible, you know,
much less, much less practice it. Alright? And if you do practice them you don't
need to take a lot of initiations, take one...'boom'! Something will happen.
Okay? {Chakya chenmo}. So {chakya chenmo} and...{lam tso nam sum}, {mu shi
mu su}?

[student, Kylie: Actual {tshakya tenpo} and actual {lam tso nam sum} yes.]

How many, {mu shi} or {mu su}? Can you have
[student: {Mu su}.]

Can you have tantric practice without {lam tso nam sum}?

[students: No.]

She's right, she's a computer expert. She's already figured it out. She's...(A), (A)
is out. (B), (C), (D) we have. (B) is what?

[student: {Lam sum nam sum} without {chakya} ]

{Chakya chenmo} yeah, during the causal period...before you get the result.
Okay? And then number three, that which is both?

[student: That which is both would be ]

Good tantric practice. That's when you're practicing tantra, you have those three
in your mind and things start to pop, things really start to happen. And neither?

[student: Neither it's...]

We call {lama shu bay cassag}, {lama shu bay cassak}, {lama shu bay cassag}
means a person who doesn't even...he doesn't care about religion, he's not
interested, he's not doing {lam tso nam sum}, forget it, it's a waste of time...he's
getting money, whatever. Okay? Alright? {Chakya chenmo}. There. Helping
you with your homework...[silence] Please say {tub}[repeat], {shu da}[repeat],
{tub}[repeat], {shu da} [repeat]. This is a method. I'll give you an example of
{tub}. In the monastery we wanted to start a computer project so we, we told
the monastery give us the thirty worst kids in the whole monastery, the ones
that will never become geshes.         So, they gave us the thirty, you know,
delinquents and a [laughter], they were a rough bunch of kids, and we put 'em in
a room and said, "We're gonna start a computer project, you'll get rich" and
[laughter] but we're only taking twenty of you, we're kicking out ten. We're
gonna do a training program and we're gonna kick out ten of you." So then we
did a bob-tail and [unclear] for, I dunno, four months, and, and every kid got up
to fifty words a minute. Touch type, in tibetan, you know? D-d-d-d-d-d, and
that's...then the monks came to me, {tub kay, tub kay}, skillful means. {Tub},
now that's a {tub}. {Tub} means some kind of method that you use to
[student, Kylie: Finagle?]

What my boss would call manipulation [laughs], okay? Yeah. You, y'know
you're doing something and it'll come, you get it and it works out. And they,
they did get rich and they all left.

[student, Kylie: What happened to the ten that didn't make it?]

We kicked them out.

[student, Kylie: Fifty words and all.]

Right.

[student, Kylie: So what did you devise some good work or what?]

Well what we did was, every time one dropped out about sick leave, we had
back ups. {Tub}, and {sherab} wisdom. In...in {lam tso nam sum}, what's the
main {tub}? Well, let's go this way, this is easier. These are the two causes for
Buddhahood, okay? Two main causes, {tub} and {shu}. Alright?

[student: The two main causes ]

To become a buddha.

[student: Okay.]

You can see on page...it'll be in your reading this week on page thirty-six. These
are the two main causes to become a buddha. What he's trying to say is, that
you must have {lam tso nam sum} to become a buddha. He just proved that you
needed it for tantric practice. He also just proved that you needed it to do any
kind of good deed at all which is relevant. Okay? And now he's proving that
you need it for, to become a buddha. To reach your ultimate goal you must
have these two, you must have these two, okay? {Sherab} refers to wisdom
which means, which one of the three do you guess? Who's turn? Which, yeah,
which in tibetan {yang dakpay tawa}, right? {Yang dakpay tawa}, okay?
{Sherab} refers to {yang dakpay tawa}, which basically means the understanding
of emptiness. Okay?

[student: Does it also mean cause and effect for [unclear] ]
Yeah, it can mean. That's called...that's a lower kind of {yang dakpay tawa}.
Highest kind of {yang da pe tawa} understands emptiness. There's a lower {yang
dakpay tawa} which called, which is called {jikten, jikten be yang dakpay tawa}
which means, which refers to the understanding of karma and emptiness, okay.
So that's wisdom. What do you think {tub} is, method? Out of the {lam tso nam
sum}, Bill.

[student, Bill: {Chang sem}]

Yeah, mainly {chang sem}. {Chang sem}, okay? The wish to become a buddha.
Wanting to be a buddha, why? Why should you want to be a buddha?

[student: To get out of this life? To help people?]

You can do that in, just with nirvana. Nirvana is lower than Buddhahood. Then
you're out of this life.

[student: To help people?]

Yeah, to help other people, you cannot help other people really until you're a
buddha.

[student: So now why now you can't help people?]

Not much.

[student: Why not much?]

You don't...a buddha can really help because he can read their mind, he can see
their future, he knows everything, he knows their paths for a million years, he
can help, he can really help...we can't help, we can teach a limited way, where
you can get people food or something like that but not a big help. Not like that.
So, help refers to the desire to become a buddha.

[student, Kylie: Desire to become a buddha?]

Yes, {chung sem}. It's exactly what it means. { [unclear] }

[student, Kylie: I thought desire was something to be offended.]
[CLAP] {Me be aitcho. Dro la cha pay kun da che es, kal ay sem on kar} desire is
to help other beings, big debate. Big debate. There's good desires. Method,
that's the method. So where does {nyen jung} fall into all this? Do we get rid of
{nyen jung}? Is it only {lam so nam yee}? Where's {nyen jung}?

[student: Well you can't get rid of it.]

Well, if you have these three you can apparently become a buddha, they call it
the two wings of buddha, if you have two you can fly.

[student, Kylie: But how can you have those two with that.]

So we got {yang dakpay tawa}, correct view fit into wisdom. And the desire to
become a buddha to help other people fits into method. So what happened to
renunciation?

[student: Can it be both?]

What?

[student: Wisdom and method? ]

No. It is a kind of wisdom that can help.

[student: It is a preliminary]

To? [CLAP] To what?

[student: To, to the thinking.]

Yeah, it's a preliminary to what?

[student: Preliminary to wanting to become a buddha ]

Yeah good.

[student: To have to want to give up everything ]

Yeah good. Okay? It's a preliminary to meth...to {chang sem}. Why? Why is
renunciation necessary to get boddhichitta?

[student: Because you often have to put other beings before yourself? And if
you don't renounce [unclear] ]

That's a, that's not a bad answer that's not exactly it.

[students: [unclear] ]

[student, Kylie: If you think the world is great what do you need Buddhahood
for, or boddhichitta anything like that?]

Ah, it's all close, real close, basically it's this: if you are not concerned about your
own suffering at all, how can you be concerned about others? It's impossible, it'll
never happen. If you don't believe you're in trouble you won't go breaking your
neck to help other people, impossible, you won't do it. You won't do it.

[student, Kylie: But I mean isn't it more basic than that, if you don't realize
you're in trouble why would you do anything to help yourself or anyone else?]

Right, right, right, same thing.

[student, Kylie: No you say go around helping other people I mean you know.]

Yeah. Why, why would you bother, if you didn't think you're in trouble, why
should you go run out and try...convince other people that they're in trouble?
You, you won't, and you won't be convincing 'cause you don't believe it.
Renunciation is a prerequisite for {chang sem}, for boddhichitta, you must have
it. So these are called the two, the two great causes of Buddhahood, {chi tee nga},
and method assumes the first two paths, and wisdom assumes the third. So
you're starting to see that, that all the causes for Buddhahood are, are included in
what? {Lam tso nam sum}. Are you hot?

[student: No. I can't hear but ]

Can't have everything. [laughs][laughter] Okay. So two basic causes for
Buddhahood, alright? You must have them. What does that mean? I mean
when we study emptiness, okay? When you stu...and I'll just tell you briefly. My
perception of me right now, is that I'm a normal human being. I, I see myself as
a normal human being. Maybe if someone else were a very good person, they
might see me as a deity, okay?

[student: See you as a?]

As a angel, okay? They would be correct, from their point of view I would be an
angel and maybe they think everything I say is something very holy. I see
myself as a normal person. The emptiness of it is that I'm neither one. By
myself.

[student, Kylie: You're using this example in class, so isn't this a bad example
because I mean ]

[laughter] Wait, hear me through and then if it's a bad example correct me.

[student, Kylie: We already talked about it, you said that ]

They didn't hear it.

[student, Kylie: Alright.]

So I'm empty. Let's say I'm empty because...this person sees me, due to their
goodness, and it happens, they're good enough to see me as a very good person.
I know who I am. Who's correct? Nobody's correct, I mean it's what they see
and it's what I see. What's really there is neither one. If I practice renunciation
and love for others, if I truly cared about other people, and I worked very hard
for others, the karmic result would be what? I mean if I gave up the...my
ultimate for other people, what would be the karmic result?

[students: [unclear] ]

They would be doing it back to me. You know? The actual cause for me to see
everyone in the world, being absolutely pure for me, is to actually have {chang
sem} for them. That's the karmic cause for that. And on that day I'll be [unclear]
so sure, we'll talk about it, we have five years. [laughs][laughter] Hopefully.
[unclear] Leave it at that.

[student, Kylie: Naoow you're confusing me here.]

It's okay.
[student, Kylie: I, I, can I just make this brief here?]

After class.   Seriously, after class.   You gotta let me win sometime, I'm the
teacher.

[student, Kylie: Noo, I want to...I'm trying to help you win big here, you know.]

Okay now, maybe it'll come.

[student, Kylie: [unclear] ]

Okay please say {chu ku}[repeat], {su ku}[repeat], {chu ku}[repeat], {su ku}
[repeat], okay. What does {chu} mean?

[student: Dharma?]

Dharma. Dharma normally...has two great meanings, it has ten technically, but
two are the most common. One is the teachings of the Buddha. Buddhadharma.
And the other is just thing, existing object.

[student: Thing?]

Yeah, there are countless dharmas like this, this world is a dharma, the empire
state building is a dharma, your happiness is a dharma

[student: As in object?]

Yeah. Object...that's a synonym for dharma actually, {yul} means "object" and
that's a synonym for dharma. Thing, existing object or, teachings of the
Buddha...two big meanings of dharma. {Ku} means what?

[student: Body?]

Body. In sanskrit?

[student: Kaya.]

Kaya. So this {ku} also means kaya. I mean what's the sanskrit for...what does
{suk} mean?
[student: Enjoyment? ]

Huh?

[student: Enjoyment?]

No.

[student: Happiness? Happiness?]

No. That's {foo ga} and that's sanskrit. {Suk} means "form, physical". In sanskrit
{ru pa}.

[student: Aren't there three bodies?]

Well, I'm about to talk about it.

[student: What's that? Is that a 'zu' or 'z' in it? Did you say 's'?]

{Tza, tza, tza} long term 's', long term 's' {tza} long 's' not 't-s'. {Kaya} is a, is a
disturbing word, I mean it used to bother me, the four bodies of a buddha or
two bodies of a buddha I mean what does he do with the one body while he's
walking around with the other body. You know? It just means part, it just
means part. It doesn't mean he has like four bodies running around, okay?

[student: Five?]

Part. P-a-r-t. And there are two great...the, the bodies of the buddha can be
divided into two or three or four. Okay? There's a big debate at the end of the
[b: Abhisamancara], the eighth chapter, which you study in your twelfth year of
geshe studies, and, they debate whether...'cause Asanga only mentions three or
four, why did he only do that, and...normakaya refers to two parts of the
buddha: his mind...his mind...which knows everything at all times. It knows
every object that ever existed, every object that will exist, every object that exists
now, everything in the universe at the same time. Simultaneously. And has the
unique quality of being able to perceive emptiness directly, and still perceive
emptiness conceptually, at the same time. He can see normal objects and he can
also see the ultimate object at the same time, the only being who can. Big
debates about, how does he do it? Okay? Harder than you think.
[student: B.C.'s book mentions that. ]

Yeah, at the same time. His finger sees more...okay, that's another debate. His
finger, his little finger sees, sees all objects. Difficult. [laughs] Dharmakaya.
Dharmakaya includes another part which is the emptiness of the buddha's mind.
The emptiness of the buddha's mind.

[student: As opposed to his mind?]

Right. Quality of his mind in emptiness. Every object has emptiness, about the
third year, it comes up in the, in the discussion of Abhidharma...buddha nature,
that is buddha nature by the way. That's what they call buddha nature. Now,
rupakaya, which is the physical body of the buddha has two parts, you know
what they are. One, one is we call his enjoyment body.

[student: Isn't that like [unclear] ]

Sambodhakaya. But you don't need to know that, it just gets confusing.

[student, Kylie: Sambodhakaya is the jnanakaya?]

Jnanakaya. {Wong chu}

[student: Jnanakaya. ]

Yeah. And that means the, the physical body of the buddha in his own paradise.
Okay? In his paradise, which has five qualities, which you don't have to know
now, you'll learn it later. He's in the paradise that...he lives in. The other part of
his physical body is the one that he pretends to show on Earth.

[student: When he emanates.]

Yeah, nirmanakya. The motion picture body. That's the one he shows to people
when he comes to this planet. It's just pretend. He's, he's still up in his own
paradise.

[student, Kylie: So sambodhakaya is not an emanation even?]

No.
[student, Kylie: No.]

It's not a technically a duplicate.

[student, Kylie: Then there's only one sambodhakaya at a time?]

We debate it in {neh na tur yur}.

[student: Michael? Emanation mind is nirmanakaya?]

Yeah nirmanakaya. Nirmana means to...I think the 'm' in [unclear] emanate
comes from nirman, nirman, to send out.

[student: Spell that? And write that? ]

Naw, I don't remember. I don't even watch...all you have to know is dharma
body and form body. Okay? Dharma body?

[student: Dharma body includes both the [unclear] ]

Right right. And dharma body includes both the [unclear]

[student, Kylie: And there can be many, nirmanakayas at one time.]

There's a big debate in the [b: Abhidharma] and we'll, we'll do it. We'll do it.
We'll study {trul}...{trulping}, {trulpa ing}, how to do a {tulku}. And the state of
mind in which you can do a {trulku}. You know, you can do a {trulku}, that you
could show yourself to somebody on fortieth street and still be on thirty-ninth
street, okay? Dharma body, form body, why did I bring them up? Each one has
a specific cause. And that's again on page...thirty-six, but you don't need to know
that. By the way, that's the last big thing you need to know so don't worry. One
more...so don't get overloaded, but that's what a class is for. To challenge you. I
wanna push you.

[student: [unclear] ]

No I want to, I want to. No I, I have to. Otherwise you can come to the cookie
class Friday night I threaten you with that. Cookies and coffee...oh and a nice
class. [laughter]
[student: Kylie: By the way Michael, is that...you doing a ]

By the way we are doing the [b: Lam Rim Chenmo].

[student, Kylie: [b: Lam Rim Chenmo]?]

Very fantastic. Very, very fantastic. Friday night...we're doing the death
meditation for [unclear]. It's very beautiful. [cut] [repeat-{yeshe}], {ge tsok}
[repeat], {sonom}[repeat], {ge tsok}[repeat], {yeshe ge tsok}[repeat], {sonom ge
tsok}[repeat]. Okay. {Yeshe} means "wisdom", same as {sherab}. Is there any
difference? It's debated in the [b: Abhidharma] and you'll get there, in about
your fourth year. {Yeshe} means "wisdom". People struggle to give 'em
different names, it's a waste of time, just wastes your time. {Yeshe ge tsok},
{tsok} you know Kylie, what's a {tsok}?

[student, Kylie: It's a collection or a sub-collection. ]

Yeah, when we do a big prayer for some of our rituals it's called a {tsok}. {Tsok}
means "a lot of things getting together".

[student: Getting together? ]

Yeah gathering, collection. Lot of things getting together.

[student: Is accumulation okay?]

Yeah. You can say that. I, I...I call collection sometimes. You could say anything.
{Sonom} you have already tonight, good deed, virtue, merit, {sonom} means
"merit". By the way the {kyi} means "of" in both cases, "of". And in...you always
read tibetan backwards. So {sonom kyi tsok} means "collection of merit".

[student: Do you read these words backwards?]

No you don't.

[student: Read the whole line backwards?]

Yes you do, pretty much, syntax is pretty much reversed, it's object, verb,
subject, to the store went I. Instead of I went to the store.
[student: [unclear] ]

Oh yeah, yeah, is it good enough? Yeah [cut]

[end side one of tape]

{Yeshe ge tsok}, doing things throughout your life to collect more knowledge.
To gain more understanding...is the cause for {chu ku}. I'll say it again, {yeshe ge
tsok} is the cause for {chu ku} mainly. Okay? It's understanding, it's knowledge,
that gets you {chu ku}.

[student: [unclear] ]

Yes. Main...mainly. Three levels, we'll study it. That's why it's a five year course.
By the way something very interesting, there's nothing you're studying
now...what I'm teaching you now is a structure into which everything we ever
learn will fit. And I'll be saying four years from now remember back in the first
class in the hot days of ninety-three? We talked about {yeshe ge tsok}, well this
is what, this goes into that. This is a structure that you will use for all your five
years, okay? {Yeshe ge tsok} which means "gaining knowledge", knowledge, is
the cause for the {chu ku}, the wisdom of a buddha. The omniscience that you
will have, when you become a buddha, is caused by the knowledge that you
learn now. Part of the {yeshe} of the {chu ku} you have now. You have the
buddha nature. Buddha nature, your buddha nature is not, is not the buddha
inside you. It's, it's a wrong idea, there is no such thing. Okay? It is the
emptiness of your mind, is your buddha nature. It is your buddha nature, and
we'll study that, it's a big misperception to say that buddha nature is somehow
Buddha within you and you have to reveal...you have to make it make it shine
or uncover or something like that, completely wrong. No such thing and we'll
study it.

[student: Did you say the emptiness of ]

Of your mind, of your mind.

[student: Of their mind is buddha nature?]

Yeah, it is your buddha nature. And it will not change, and you will have it, it's
the only part of you that you'll still have when you become a buddha.
[student: What do you mean it's not a cover 'cause I heard that, it sort of covered
my negative deeds and, then there's a clear way [unclear] ]

{Gum}, no such thing.

[student, John Stilwell: And what would you give up if you could get some?]

No, it's...and you...the purpose of doing a five year course is that five years from
now, you can get into a debate and somebody saying, "Each chapter of [b:
Abhisamancara], as sangha, quoting the Buddha, you know, so what do you
mean? What are you talking about?" You know.

[student, Kylie: So then, the emptiness of your mind is the same as the
emptiness of a buddha's mind.]

Pretty much. The basis is difference. It, it is a quality of a different, of a dirty
state of mind right now, assuming you're not a buddha. And it will be a quality
of a pure state of mind but it will still be the emptiness of [unclear].

[student, Kylie: So how can it be caused I mean?]

Not hard, please!

[student, Kylie: We just said that the wisdom collection is the cause for it.]

I said mainly. [laughter] Also, this has two parts. What was the other part? Not
just the buddha nature.

[student: Omniscience.]

I mean his, his state of mind. This is a cause for that state of mind.

[student, Kylie: Right, that's fine, but that's not necessarily a cause for the
emptiness of the ]

Correct. Correct in the [unclear]. That's why in, in debating you always say,
"Chiefly, mainly, pretty much", it gets you out of everything. {Sonom ge tsok} is
the collection of merit, good deeds, and mainly towards other people. Right? By
definition, a good deed is bringing [unclear] towards others. And a bad deed, is,
{she nyer shi ta che po le} which means "anything that hurts others". So do a
good deed is mainly focused on other people, mainly. And that's the cause for
the physical body.

[student, Kylie: So you're defining merit only as those good things that are
accumulated along with the understanding of emptiness or the two kinds of
merits...[unclear] merit and you know, merit that produces the [unclear] ]

Well, since I started out the class saying that you had to have {lam tso nam sum}
in your mind to do real merit, I guess I said that...but that's...don't, don't get too
far ahead. Collection of good deeds. You must have {cheh chi ness}. A buddha
must have these two parts, all buddhas have these two parts.

[student: {Rupaka} mean the, the ]

Those two bodies, those two physical bodies, yeah. These two, these two parts,
if you draw a line this way...the reason you're in this class, hopefully, is to get
these two parts, you want these two parts. You want your physical body to
change, you don't want this kind of physical body anymore, it's a drag.

[student, John Stilwell: Is it possible to obtain sambodhakaya or nirmanakaya
separately [unclear]?]

No. [unclear] And it's a big subject, it's a vast subject, it's the eighth chapter of
the [b: Abbhisamanacara]. You know, what is, what is it like the final few
moments before you go into Buddhahood, it's incredible, it's like reading
sciencefiction, and it's very, very deep and the questions are many.                  The
questions are very difficult at that point. You know, how does a buddha think?
How does he perceive two totally different kinds of objects at the same time, and
it's covered there, and we will do it, and it's very interesting, it's really interesting.
What I'm saying is in the future you must have this physical body of a buddha.
It's like a diamond, it's not like our bodies, okay? It's very much like a, a
diamond, it's called {su pa ma dembo}. It's not matter but it's physical. Okay?
Very difficult question.

[student: But Michael, when you talk about {tul ku}s, which means nirmanakaya,
right? So, if you can only have the two together then that means that all {tul ku}s
are omniscient ]

Technically.
[student: But they, but I mean, is that ]

Are you about to say they're not? [laughs]

[student: Does that mean that every, every, you know, {tul ku} is, is a buddha?]

Technically, they're called a {tsho ke tul ku}, {tsho ke tul ku}. {Tsho ke tul ku}
means "the supreme tul ku", highest...like Pabongkha Rinpoche in Sera
monastery right now, the one there now, we refer to as {tchok tu rinpoche},
{tchok tu}, and the {tchok} means "highest", which is the {chok} in {koin chok},
which is to distinguish him from other {tul ku}s. I mean he's a...there are {tul ku}
s.

[student: So, since there is a distinction that may imply that are, there are some
kinds of people with {tsul ku} who don't have to ]

No there's people who have the ability to do eight, eight {tul ku}, this is a {ku}
refers to {tsho ke tul ku}, the ultimate {tul ku}. {Tsul ku}, in this case refers to the
ultimate {tul ku}, {tsho ke tul ku}.

[student: Okay, yeah.]

[student, Kylie: So it's possible to, for there be, to be an emanation body in this
world without there being a sambodhakaya body to back it up?]

Right, right, but that's not {tsho ke tul ku}, that's not the eman...that's not a
buddha showing himself. I, if I obtain a certain level of {ting nih dzin},
{sambodi}, I can make a {tul ku}, I can make myself appear at my workplace, and
that way I wouldn't have to get up in the morning. [laughter] [laughs] Can't do
it yet.

[student, John Stilwell: I thought you said it was impossible to obtain the
sambodha...the mind body without sambodhakaya?]

Highest, highest nirmanakaya. That's what

[student, Kylie: So then all, all {tul ku}s have some other body somewhere else
emanating it or? ]

All highest, all high {tulku}s...yeah, no, right, you're right, yeah, yeah,
that's...we'll get into it at the [b: Abhidharmakosha]. [cut] And I say that what I
said last week. I don't...now I forget whose class I'm in. If you practice the {lam
tso nam sum}, you do not have to die. If you really do them well, you will
experience a different reality, okay? You, you can achieve the {tsul ku}, only
through {lam tso nam sum}, you must have {lam tso nam sum}, and that's the
whole point. Along with that you gotta have {chu ku}, {chu ku} meaning "the
knowledge of a buddha" you will reach a point where you know all things.
You'll be Mister-Know-It-All. [laughter] [laughs] So, right?

[student, Kylie: Can we say definitively then that the collection of wisdom is the
cause for the buddha's mind, not necessarily the cause for the emptiness of the
buddha's mind?]

Right.

[student, Kylie: You could say that?]

Sure.

[student, Kylie: So it's not a cause for the two up there, it's a cause for one of the
two.]
Exactly. Technically. But it...but I would debate if you were in the monastery I
could say it, it is the cause for both.

[student, Kylie: So emptiness is caused by...something.]

Well, I would say it's the emptiness of a buddha's mind [unclear]. Is the
emptiness of Michael Roach Buddha and the emptiness of Michael Roach non-
buddha? No.

[student, Kylie: So then you're saying that there's different qualities of emptiness
[unclear] ]

Aaah very...it's a big debate, and I won't get into it. You've touched on a big
debate. We'll do all of these, don't worry, if you're still here, you can...and then
you know it deeply, you not only know what it means but you know every
possible question about it, and that's the [unclear], that's what we'll be studying.
And then, people, you know you hear some stupid thing that somebody says
and you say, "That's not true, I can show you the book, this is [unclear], this is
Shakyamuni's text, you know, what are you talking about?" And, and there is a
correct position that we have that, that's true and makes sense and it works.
{Chu ku}...so I'll have to repeat, to get these two, what you must get, you must
have {lam tso nam sum}, you must have {lam tso nam sum}. Without {lam tso
nam sum} you cannot get these two. Without getting these two, you have to go
through this life, the way it's going now, assuming you're not a buddha.

[student, John Stilwell: Why must you get, why must you have these two?]

Aaah! Go and have a cookie and a tea, think about it. [cut] Of the three, of the
three principal paths being [unclear] or attitudes, which one do you think causes
wisdom mind? Which one is causes wisdom which causes your mind?

[student: Correct view?]

Yeah. Okay? So this is {yang dakpay tawa}. You must have {yang dakpay
tawa}, you must have the third path that we're gonna study...to, to collect
knowledge. You must have knowledge to, to be able to think like that.

[student: But [unclear] you have to have [unclear] ]

They're all interrelated, yeah. You have to collect a good amount of virtue to
understand it.

[student, John Stilwell: It seems a little strange to me 'cause correct view is
somehow independent of intellectual accumulation of knowledge.]

Not at all, and that's what I'm about to say, and I tell you this: If you stay in this
class five years...you will gain knowledge...and that's what this is, and you will
understand...precisely...how, how to make this happen, period. You know? You
will understand exactly how it happens that you will become a buddha, and
[unclear] then you can do it! I, I tell you that, I swear. You know...you, you just
consciously, normally, without any great, you know, blah-blah-blah, you just
understand how it works and then you go do it. It's knowledge. What they
always call wisdom, you know, bluh-uh-uh it sounds like some mystical thing, it
is just knowledge and you can learn it in a class. You can learn it. And you will
know how to make that happen. And then you just go do it.

[student: [unclear] meditation [unclear] in three years? ]

[unclear] But I...this is what I, I'm offering. Seriously. You just understand what
you're doing and you can make it happen, I swear you can do it. Just, just what
you call knowledge, the whole thing wisdom, [unclear] wisdom, just knowing
what you're doing, and you can make [unclear]. If you understand emptiness
clearly, understand bodhichitta clearly, make it happen, get the result, get minor
results every month, you're satisfied, you see things happen. If, if, if I teach you
and that doesn't happen then you quit. Okay? Seriously. Alright? It will
happen. You just have to know it could be. {Sonam ge tsok}, {sonam ge tsok} is
"good deeds". What do you need for {sonam ge tsok}?

[student: Boddhichitta.]

{Chang sem}. {Chang sem}, boddhichitta, wish to become a buddha for other
people, working for other people, helping other people, okay? Must have it. To
get that you must have what? Renunciation. [unclear] By the way, I, I say to get
that, to get that what? How?

[student, John Stilwell: How to get boddhichitta?]

Renunciation, how?

[student: Meditate?]

You could meditate but, just think about it, everyday...it's a very obvious, and
almost too obvious if you don't think about renunciation daily, and if you don't
record your own thoughts about renunciation, you can't ever get it. You never
will. If you don't have a daily exercise of thinking about renunciation, there's no
reason to expect it should occur. It will not. It's, it's kind of silly, you know, it's
kinda...what would cause it? Without doing it on a daily basis and writing down,
"Oh I have this thought, I have this thought", what would come? Wha...why
would it come, if you didn't do something on a daily basis? It just won't come, so
this whole class is useless if you don't do something on a daily basis.

[student: You want us to write it down as well as meditate?]

I find it very useful to write it down. If, if I'm meditating on renunciation, I write
down the three specific...thoughts I had today that were close to renunciation.

[student: This is apart from the separate meditation?]

That is a meditation.
[student: Right, but it's not sitting down for fifteen minutes.]

It is. I...when I sit down to write, that's a meditation. I, I'm reviewing my day
and I'm saying, "These are the three thoughts I had...these are the three, three
types of renunciation came into my mind very clearly today, or close." Okay? At
the beginning it's all close, okay, you don't really have renunciation but you say,
"Okay today at twelve o'clock I saw my boss' w...no, I saw the guy that I started
the company with and I found out he had stomach cancer, and, and it occurred
to be this is where we're all heading. And just for a second I had that vision that
all these guys walking around, all the politics in the office, well what does it mean
if this guy, who's the founder of the company just got stomach cancer? He's
taking his radiation treatments, he is. So what does it mean? What's the use?
You know, to, to, you know, I didn't get as big an office as he did, which did
occur to me today. [laughter] Then you record your three opposites, I, I find it
very useful, actual instances, it's very useful...'It's kind of a dim, fuzzy meditation,
oh yeah, renunciation' it doesn't work.

[student: Then you record what? The three op...]

The three, the three thoughts you had that were the farthest away from your
[unclear], and do this for next week, this is part of your homework, it's on your
homework sheet okay? Record every day the three thoughts you had that were
closest to renunciation, closest to thinking, oh this is all great suffering I don't, I
don't want this thing. You know? Like you, you were working with people who
have physical problem right? So you look at them and you see some old lady
and you think, oh Ordura's gonna be like this. Okay? She will, or your
grandmother, okay? This is Ordura, after a while, I'm gonna be like that. That's
renunciation.

[student: How about mentally age?]

[unclear] you should think about how bad it is, yeah, that's renunciation. And
then the opposite is to think of three cases where you were thinking about the
bigger option. Seriously, when you have the opposite of renunciation, it's very
effective, if you don't do this, you cannot get the three principal paths, it's
impossible, what would cause it?

[student, John Stilwell: This is what...isn't...it seems to me that this is one of the
whole mystical concept of this tibetan buddhist approach is like there's this
wisdom floating around, there's this renunciation floating around and somehow
mystically all comes together and sits in your lap.]

Yeah I know. It won't happen. It can't happen, there's nothing to cause it. You
can learn the whole mystical wisdom stuff quite dry in five years in a class, then
you can go out and do all the mysticism you want and it will happen, it will really
happen. I mean anything you want will happen. And you study...every day you
keep those stupid three little things, it takes five minutes...then you make
progress, you really do make progress. And it will work. Do it, try it. That's this
part of your homework, if you don't do it you're out. [laughter] You have to do
it every day.

[student: Is the opposite something like enjoying the sunset?]

Yeah yeah, enjoying the stupid things of a...three cases where you truly got
wrapped up in something that's as fragile as a bubble. You know, Shakespeare
said, you know, about reputation, fame...it just pops one day, the guy is gone,
you know? What happens to...if you've ever been in a big company and there
was this tyrant who was the, he was the most powerful guy in the company and
then he had a heart attack, the next day his desk is empty, three days later there's
some guy is sitting there, it's all over, the guy is gone. It can hap...it happens in
every company. It happens every day [unclear] it's, it's weird. Okay, last thing.
[silence]

[student: Michael you didn't say why you need both of those to obtain [unclear]
why you need both dharmakaya and {rupakaya}.]

It is what a buddha is, those are the two parts of a buddha. There is nothing of
a...there is no part of a buddha that doesn't get into those two. What I'm trying
to prove is that you need those three attitudes. You can't get those two parts of
a buddha without those three attitudes period.

[student: So you can't have {rupakaya} without dharmakaya?]

No. Well, we just talked about it. You can emanate yourself before you become
a buddha, but we don't call that the {rupakaya}. It is a {tulku}, but it is not the
{tulku}.

[student: That's it, that's not Buddhahood.]
No.

[student, Kylie: And, and are there {sambodhakaya}s that don't have to be
emanating again?]

No

[student, Kylie: {Nirmanakaya}s?]

Oh, right now? That could be because, I mean in theory it could be. If there's no
one ripe, to be in {nirmanakaya}, then {nirmanakaya} cannot appear. We, we're
not ripe enough to meet the, the classical {nirmanakaya}. We, we, we didn't have
enough goodness to meet...Shakyamuni Buddha.

[student, Kylie: Because if we did we won't be sitting here I mean?]

No. Just historically, it didn't happen. I mean in our, in our day there is no
Shakyamuni Buddha.

[student, Kylie: Oh, oh, you're not saying that you weren't there at that point.]

Right. [silence] Okay please say {shay dup}[repeat], {nyen du}[repeat], {shay
dup}[repeat], {nyen du}[repeat], okay, {shay dup} and {nyen du}. {Shay} means
"know", we had {sherab} last...a few minutes ago, "know, knowledge". {Dup}
means "obstacle", when you have a stroke in tibetan it's called {drup say}, to get
an obstacle. And sometimes a shadow is called a {du}, eclipses sometimes
[unclear] {du}. Any kind of block. {Nyen dup}. I call it bad thought, I, I just like
to make it single. You will study all these definitions, you'll know precisely what
they are, we'll cover it. It'll, it'll come, it comes in the [unclear] scriptures. And
anything we're talking about you will study...twenty levels down, fantastic.

[student: And it also, does it have to be thought or is it just something that's
mental, could it be bad feeling as well?]

Nope.

[student: No. It's really cognitive.]

We'll get into it. That's another subject. You will spend one whole class on it,
fifty something functions of the mind, then I'll answer you. Okay? We'll spend
one whole cla...one whole course on there, it's called {lo ma ni}. These are the
two great obstacles, they're, all obstacles break down into these two. This one
mainly prevents you from becoming, from reaching nirvana. Definition of this
kind of obstacle, is an obstacle which mainly prevents you from reaching
nirvana, and this is an obstacle which prevents you from reaching full
Buddhahood, nirvana and full Buddhahood are a lot different, big difference.

[student: You have to have nirvana in order to become a buddha?]

Yes. {Mu sum}.

[student, Kylie: You mean an obstacle for omniscience?]

Yeah. Same thing. Why do I say this? The state of a Buddhahood, with a
{[unclear]} in {jangchub}, the {sang} in {sang gye}, the very word 'buddha', the
very word 'boddh', 'buddh', partly refers to getting rid of these two obstacles,
okay? The cleaning part of the word 'buddha', refers to these two obstacles. If
you get rid of these two obstacles, you're a buddha period. Okay?

[student: If you get rid of these two things ]

Yeah, then you're a buddha. That's why you're called even a buddha, that's why
the tibetans call Buddha {sang gye}, the {sang} means "clear out, clean up", get rid
of these two obstacles. Why did I write them here? You cannot get rid of these
two obstacles without...which one of the three paths? {Yang dakpay tawa},
okay? You must have a          perception of emptiness, you must understand
emptiness to get rid of these two obstacles.         Otherwise impossible, and
then...you can't become a buddha. Can't become a buddha.

[student: Can not?]

Can not. If you don't have [unclear]. Because you can't get rid of these two
obstacles, you can't get the {sang} in {sang gye}, you can't get the {boddh} in
{boddhi}. [laughs] [laughter] Impossible. Just impossible. Won't happen, cannot
happen.

[student: You need this only correct view to, to...only correct view?]

You can't have real correct view without the other two.
[student, Kylie: Now Michael you, when you say real correct view what you
mean it is is the ability to perceive emptiness directly.]

Yeah. [unclear]

[student, Kylie: And, and that which leads to it. ]

{Chu en je tsun tawa mi chepa} first [unclear], wisdom that is, and the things that
we have to [unclear]. {Shen dup nyen dup}. That's it...these are the reasons why,
why you need the three principal paths, so next week I'll ask you, can you think
of any buddhist practice that doesn't fit into the three principal paths...anything
not covered by the three principal paths, okay? Tell me next week.

[student: Any activity, or any what?]

Any part of buddhism that doesn't follow into the three principal paths.

[student, Kylie: You mean individually not necessarily collectively.]

Right.

[student, Kylie: [unclear] hinyana thervada might not fall into boddhichitta.]

We have to say {ngowa}, that's the third thing you have there. Okay? It's the
third thing in your notebook. Next page. Third white page.

[end of tape]
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